By Enrique Tessieri
This blog entry broke on March 16, 2012 the 22,440-visits barrier. Since it was first published in May 2007, it has got 1,540 comments. Even though it is a simple test that aims to shed light on a social ill in this country, it asks, like the one by Alcoholic Anonymous, some hard and unpleasant questions.
Thanks to your support, the Are You a Target of Racism in Finland post has turned into a very big thumbs down against racism in this country.
Due to the popularity of this post, the “racism test” will be translated into different languages. The first of these is in Spanish.
Racism manifests itself in various ways. Nazi Germany and the Holocaust, Ku Klux Clan are some of its most terrible manifestations. Today, in Europe, some political parties are capitalizing on xenophobia in order to lure votes for their opportunistic and undemocratic political aims. Racism may happen in different ways in different cultures but one matter is for certain: its primary aim is to exclude, destroy lives and become underachievers
In a country like Finland, racism happens through exclusion. Unemployment among foreigners in Finland is a good example. At the end of 2009, 26% of immigrants living in this country were without work when compared with about 8% nationally. The unemployment figure for foreigners in Finland is one of the highest in the EU. A reader made an insightful comment about racism in Finland:
Finnish society, as I am sure you know, gives perhaps a rather misleading ‘public’ image at times. You probably know that Finns aren’t so great at being confrontational or saying what they think openly, thus I think sometimes things like racism are actually more prevalent than you would imagine – but fortunately mainly behind closed doors. People know it is wrong and don’t say it in public, but they still think it in private. The problem is, that in recent years the internet has let the ‘cat out of the bag.’ People can write often what they like without being traced. It’s definitely being used especially by the extremists.
With parliamentary elections in April 2011, a number of political parties, most notably the Social Democrats and True Finns, are trying to capitalize on xenophobia. It is shameful and a tragedy for this country.
Here is a short Migrant Tales “racism meter” for foreigners and minorities that can help you know if you are a target of discrimination in Finland:
1) I am self-employed (for some it is the only way of employment)
2) I’m unemployed (generally jobless claims among foreigners totals about 26%)
3) Finns often give me strange looks
4) Public officials, like the police, drag their heels with me
5) The police consider me guilty before proving my innocence
6) A Finn treats me too nicely. (I don’t want special treatment I want to be treated equally).
7) Finns are distrustful of me
8 Finns are usually watching over me at work (I have to be twice as good as a Finn)
9) If I make a mistake, it’s a bigger deal than normal
10) In a debate, I always know less than a Finn
Here is a new one, number 11: I get attacked by comments on my blog for speaking out against racism.
If you answered YES to any two, the chances are that you are a target of racism in Finland. If you answered YES to three or more, you are definitely a target of racism in Finland.
Note: This was based on an Alcoholics Anonymous questionnaire.
Obansu
August 23, 2007
Having spent several years in Finland (over 12 years) and currently living in UK, I have come to realise how racist Finland is. Over the years I lived in Finland, I studied to acquire two master’s degrees in marketing and new media, however, the best job I could get was as a taxi driver, but if one knows how difficult it is to get a taxi driver’s lincense in Helsinki, they will appreciate the struggle I went through. Besides, many finns dont appreciate whether you work or dont work as a foriegner. They seem to believe that every foreigner is living off social benefits.
Further, the institutional racism in Finland is endemic. Police, teachers, social workers seem to lack the compentcies to deal with foriegners. The social tax foreigners (MORE ESPECIALLY AFRICANS) are paying is astronomical due to racism. I have experienced, and heard horrible tales of racism in Finland. How the whole country deals with immigrants from Africa, could be potentially, the worst in Europe.
I am happily living in the UK with good job and salary I never dreamt of when I was in Finland. Looking back, I feel bitter about the racism I suffered in Finland. But happily, I have moved on. Finland is such a beautiful country, minus the people. I hope change come soon to this land, because diversity is good for any nation.
nemoo
August 24, 2007
Racism is and continues to be one of the biggest problems in Finland. A good way to measure it is to look at unemployment among foreigners, which is about four times higher than among Finns. Whenever a person or a country is racist, it’s a lost opportunity for it. A Finnish Martin Luther King will one day appear.
David
August 26, 2007
It’s not like I can judge whether Finland is one of the most racist countries in Europe (something very questionable, specially based on such a questionnare) but I have to say that WHEREVER you go, you’ll find racists.
I’ve been living in 4 different countries in the past 8 years and, even though I’ve been only twice to Finland, it’s been one of the countries where I have felt most welcome. On the other hand, I’ve been living in the Netherlands and that’s where I have experienced the worst treatment.
In any case, I have the feeling that an important barrier for integration is the language. Finland has one of the highest ones in Europe. If you don’t learn the local language, your chances to be “excluded” raise dramatically. Here I am guessing, but I presume that Obansu tried to get by basically in English; no wonder that he’s currently living happily in the UK. In my opinion, if you move to other countries and don’t speak the local language, you’ll never stop experiencing discrimination. Finland is no exception to this, nor the UK.
nemoo
August 26, 2007
Hi David, many thanks for your comment. Language is vital in helping a foreigner to be part the society he lives in. While racism happens everywhere, it acts in different ways in different countries and cultures. Some sociologists classify racism as old and new. “New” racism means that while some members of the majority culture won’t attack you physically, you’ll be excluded by them. In other words they’ll smile at you kindly and say: “Sorry, but we’re not hiring anyone today.” But you’re right: Learning the language is the first important step. I suspect that Obansu may have known some Finnish. He was applying for a taxi license in Helsinki.
David
August 26, 2007
Hi nemoo, I fully agree with you.
It is however difficult (at least for me) to distinguish between racism and a simple discrimination towards foreigners. The consequences are essentially the same for both and that’s why it is for me hard to believe that it was racism and not the discrimination that can be held against any foreigner, regardless for his/her ethnicity.
Never meant to say that Obansu didn’t learn Finnish, which is something quite commendable… I might be wrong, but many people do appreciate that foreigners take the time to learn the language, that’s why it really surprised me that after 12 years in the country he still felt discriminated.
nemoo
August 26, 2007
Hi David, it would be interesting to read what Obansu may have to say on this.
Obansu
September 10, 2007
I am delighted to read that immigrants like David are enjoying their stay in Finland. Alas, wind of positive change is blowing accross the finnish society. What David did not tell us, though, is how long he has lived in the country and his ethinicity. It is true that racism is everywhere, but how it is dealt with by the society and the press as a whole makes a big difference.
Certainly, in the UK there are terrifying accounts of racism suffered by the minority ethnic communities, but what impresses me is the open manner it is discussed in the press, however, two-faced the press are in the UK. Certainly, racism is experencial, so what I may percieve as racist experience may not be racist to David. To emphasise on this, I have visited Netherlands on many occasions, and I find that country to be liberal and genorous to foreigners. For example, Netherlands is one of the few countries in europe that have black elected parlimentarians.
David, look around Finland and see if you will find even a single elected ethnic minority in the local councils. Though some political parties like SDP have constantly window dressed their candidates list to include few Somalians, but the average racist finnish voter will rather vote for his dog rather than vote for a foriegner. I hope David you have not come to a point in your stay in Finland where your children in school are always accussed as the wrong doers when they pick a fight, because they were being taunted by other kids. I hope you have not got to a point where you politely disagree with your kids teachers, on their opinions and they accuse you of being aggressive and report you to the social services. I hope you have not yet become a victim of verbal aggression and racism, and you become the agressor and accussed in the eyes of the police. The list can go on and on.
What saddens me is that despite the marginalisation foriegners face in Finland, there is nowhere they can turn to, to address their grievances. And ironically, Finland has a high reputation abroad, because they have managed to put a smoke screen in front of racism in the country.
nemoo
September 10, 2007
Hi Obansu, glad to hear from you again. You raise valid questions. I’m certain that Finland is a very different country if you are black as opposed to being white. As mentioned earlier, a good yardstick of how Finland is “treating” foreigners is to look at the latest unemployment figures (http://www.mol.fi/mol/fi/99_pdf/fi/04_maahanmuutto/08_maahanmuuttotilastot/wulktyoll.pdf)
which are now at 20% versus about 6-7% for the whole population.
Racism is one the worst ills that humanity has because it robs people on both sides of opportunities.
So what do you think should be in done in Finland to undermine racism?
Enrique
Obansu
September 11, 2007
Enrique, I dont think there are quick fixes against racism in Finland, because it is shamelessly widespread in every corner of the society, but sadly the finnish society do not see it that way. I dont think that if one fails to acknowledge his diagnoses, he will accept any treatment regime. That is the problem we are facing in Finland. People do not accept that they are racists.
I think racism and the plight of immigrants in Finland could be brought into the lime light if influential people in the country can boldly stand up in front of the national media and condemn racism. But the question is, even if this is done, will it be given enough air time and prominence?
What’s more, immigrants in the country need to unite and strongly lobby for fair treatment. But you see, this may come with a higher price to pay. They may end up suffering even more victimisation. Even more sadly, where in Finland will they take their case to? Who is ready to listen to them? There are some fine and brilliant lawyers in Finland, but sadly no one has been bold enough to stand up for the cause of suffering immigrants.
nemoo
September 13, 2007
Hi Obansu, many thanks for your comment and suggestions. Sorry I didn’t get back to you sooner since I was out of town Tuesday and Wednesday.
If we look at how some people in the US started to acknowledge that racism is a problem, I think it came thanks to the leadership of people like Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. After some Americans acknowledged how racist their society was, only then did some in the States start to change and be more receptive against racism.
Some influential people have brought the issue of racism to the public eye in Finland. However, I think that too many foreigners and Finns are passive about the matter. If you complain to loud you may be accused of Finn-bashing.
The first and foremost important step in Finland is that there are laws in force against racism. Such laws didn’t exist before. People could as racist as they pleased without suffering any legal consequences.
I agree with your comment: foreigners and Finns must take a more active role in Finland in nipping racism from the bud.
Sumida
September 20, 2007
Thank you for your observations, Obansu. I am a person from a country which is not very popular with Finns, but I am white. I have been living in Finland for the last 15 years, which is due to my marriage to a very nice Finnish person (I really think he is the only one of this kind in this country). I have experienced both type of nationalism here: the exlcluding and the including nationalism. The first one I mentioned leaves me often sad: people do not know how to deal with foreigners, and “to be on the safe side” they just exclude them (many of my husband’s friends do not know how to treat me, so they will leave us two out of invitations, parties etc.). The including nationalism is also sad: people will say something like “You have been here for 15 years, so now YOU ARE JUST LIKE A FINN”. I never know what to answer to that… such things just mean that they do not want you to be someone else than a Finn… cultural diversity is not considered to be a virtue here. I have my own culture and I do not feel like a Finn, but they will be hurt if I tell them how things are. Instead, I get hurt myself – and I have to live with it.
Concerning the language. In our family we do not speak Finnish (my husband is Swedish-speaking), neither is my work here connected with Finnish. That means I have never had a chance to learn this extremely difficult language properly. I do have a huge vocabulary, but my grammar is not very good. So, here we have a paradox: 1. I do not speak Finnish well because I do it seldom; 2. I do it seldom because I do not have any natural communication (Finnish friends, colleagues etc).
I am happy for you, Obansu. I would like to do the same thing you finally did – leave this self-centered country – but I can not. I have family here (2 children). All the best to you.
nemoo
September 20, 2007
Hi Sumida, many thanks for your interesting comments. You are in a real paradox, a bit of a vicious cultural circle. I used to hate comments a long time ago when a friend would let out racist statements but tell me that I was different from the rest of the foreigners. I’ve lived in Finland for well over 20 years and no longer care whether my Finnish is grammatically correct or not. The way I speak Finnish is a part of my identity in this country.
Enrique
Sumida
September 21, 2007
Thanbk you, Enrique/Nemoo, for your comment.
Actually, many people I know in Finland are genuinely NICE and as far as my intuition tells me, not racists. But the problem is they ar so passive and inclined to limit their social life to their family and closest relatives… Many times I feel someone likes me , and I sometimes would invite her/him home to meet my family – sometimes they do come, but never invite you back . It looks like there is no curiuosity, only cautionesess. Many people seize to make new friends when they are under 30 years of age. That means if you happen to move to another place in Finland when you are over 30 – you are OUT. You will be left outside, no matter how much curiousity you wil awake in the locals. They just do not do it. (After 4 years in Helsinki area we had to move to another city 1995 – now it is 2007, but during that time my husband and I have only twice ! have been invited to some home gathering -although due to our occupation many people do know us personally).
Just as Obansu wrote – it will take ages until something chaghes here (if it does). There is so little good will. All the national is still the highest priority here. Every year they publish a lot of new books on the Winter War… it means people are still seeing themselves as a nation at war, a nation which has few other uniting points than the holy war. It is a young country which is still building its self-image… especially after the changes around 1990 (the collapse of the USSR, Finland’s participation in the EU, and now – loss of many working places in Finland to China…). It is really hard to feel oneself Finnish – if you are not born here.
nemoo
September 21, 2007
Hi Sumida, many thanks again for your comments. What you mention is so true about how some foreigners feel. Moving to a smaller place from Helsinki can be difficult but it’s not impossible to crack when it comes to making new friends. We have had the same problems in the small town I live in but we’ve made some very good friends. If you don’t succeed, possibly you shouldn’t give up. One of the greatest joys in life is making new friends.
Nationalism is a big thing in Finland. Some take it so seriously that it’s a problem. I once suspected a coach for throwing a racist comment about my son. My son heard it from another boy on the team. I wrote to the head coach about it and confronted him on the matter. I told him that racism is for idiots because it undermines the opportunities that life offers. Thus by being accepting to be a racist, your world — and opportunities! — diminish.
Keep on trying, Sumida, you’ll find the right friends that will appreciate you for what you are. Why do you want to be with people who aren’t that way? Don’t even deal with them.
Obansu
September 23, 2007
Thanks memoo. Thanks Samuda for your intriguing comments. Apologies for my late additions, I am a bit tight these days. Incidentally, I was reflecting on my long stay in Finland today before I came to this site. My feelings, in summary was that, the average Finn, no matter how educated, less educated, enlightened, less enlightened he/she is, knows deeply from his heart that he/she is smarter/better than a foreigner-no matter where the foreigner comes from (europe, africa, asia, america). My reason, apart from experiencing this, I had the opportunity to take many foreigners as passengers from all walks of life when I was a taxi driver for about five years in Helsinki, few expressed positive comments on their encounters with Finns. We all know that Finns are introverts, but beneath that, they harbour superiority complex over other nationals, more especially, to africans. Brethren, my experience in Finland left me a bitter person. I feel pity for you guys up there.
nemoo
September 24, 2007
Hi Obansu, many thanks for your insight on Finland. It would be wrong for me to try to comprehend the difficulties you’ve had in this country. If you’re Black it’s a different story than being a German in this country. I believe that feeling of superiority you speak about is more of how Finns exclude some foreigners. You must have been a pretty tough person to be able to be a Black taxi driver in Helsinki. I for one raise my hat to you on that.
Andra
December 13, 2007
I am a Romanian and I have been living in Finland for abit over 5 years, together with now 7years old son. I am married to a very nice Finn who is very critical to his fellow Finns and very dissapointed of what he thought he could call his friends. In past 5 years tfrom all the friends and relatives he has there are only 2-3 friends who visit us and who invited us at them, though they live at hundreds of km aways, we still meet occasionally. On the other hand near by friends do not keep contact, as they do not know how to handle me. I have been also working for 5 years. In my conountry I was known as one of the top sociologist there, but here I started from a lower level. Indeed, then I did not know the language. But even now, when I can speak farly well (with grammer mistakes), I still feel that the degree of kindness and availability to accept me as I am varies a lot. I have right now about 2 families of Finnish friends and 1 mix family where I feel welcome. At work, I feel somehow tolerated now, I can say that past 2 years have been better than first 3 in this respect, maybe Finnish language, maybe the contracts I brough having a say in this. In the beginning they did not even invite me to the personnel meeting, asuming that if a I speak bad I cannot understand neither care about them…
On the street there are still people who get scared when looking at me. In the begining these looks made me angry, the wors being a moment few years ago when a drunkyard scared some school kids and when they passed us on the bikes or on foot they were visible scared and running away of us. He said bad words to us then, to me and my son. It is true I am darker as skin then an average Finn, but there are even darker people on earth and I do not think it is normal to discriminate because of the language. I think there are at least 2 kinds of discrimination, skin colour wise and language skills wise in Finland.
Most amazing experience was a study on imigrants living in Kainuu we conducted this year in our region. While when needed preparation fo the methodology me and a Russian colleague have been welcome to input and the questionnaire got a lot of our suggestions, while analysing the results and especially while presenting them we have been excluded.
I am firm in being a Romanian of Sotkamo (romanialainen sotkamolainen). I love finland and especially the place I live in with its lakes, forests and hills, but I will never be a Finn, no matter how much some will try to “integrate” me.
I am happy that, unlike in pre-school, the current teacher is NOT racist and it is first time when my son have said to me “I am Romanian.Period”.
I decided to smile to any scare old lady face and to say moi or hei when they pass me, so they calm down, they do not need to use a foreign language with me. I warn people that I am showing feelings and they do not need to panick when I do that, I will not atack them. And I started to be able to work better, at least with some of my co-workers.
Do I feel I learned to control my voice and my emotions’ visibility more in past years? Yes. Is this rasism or lack of understanding of cultural differences? That’s something to be discussed!
Andra
December 13, 2007
Sorry for the spelling mistakes, I wish there is an editing option…
Kikos
January 30, 2008
Hello everyone!
The racist or exclusion you feel in Finland is more than obvious. I am Mexican with Finnish wife and two blond sons. Once we went to the airport to leave my wife for a working trip and 2 Immigration officers arrested me, no explanation just ” come with us” after that they start asking what was my main criminal activity in Finland? is that your son? after they checked my Passport, thet said, we are sorry, it was a mistake. It old them every bad word I know in spanish, english and finnish. The next day I went oto the Immigration Headquarters and made a complain, several months later, they justed wrote, we are sorry, there was something going on in the airport and you were there by mistake.
Every time a took the bus I always travell alone, quite comfortable but the exclusion is there. If you visit Neuvola, you feel you are not welcome.
I have a BA in Business Administration, several courses in export and international commerca and it was a nightmare getting a job, the first year I went to learn finnish, I can speak and because of my latin culture I speak to everyone but the funny thing is ” Drunks” are the only ones who speak for me in the streets!!
Many people refer to Mexico as a thrid world country but I have to say, I came to Finland to live in poverty. My salary is really bad, I’m still a sales trainee, but in my division I sell more than anyone, and never received good job or any word of support.
Finally after 4 years, we decided to go back to my country, I have learned a lot of things and have a new job as Sales Manager. In many ways, it was a very nice experience living in Finland but people will not change in the next generations and I do not want my kids to be like Finns behave with no manners, and racist.
Good luck for everyone, I am respect to any immigrant trying to make a nice living in this country.
Until the next 1
nemoo
February 2, 2008
Hola Kikos, muchas gracias por responder a este comentario. It’s really interesting what you say about the treatment you got at the airport and in Finland. It´s disgraceful. Some Finns still don’t understand what a positive force immigrants are. For a person to leave his home and move to a foreign country and begin from scratch a new life takes a lot of guts. I take my hat off to such people. In many respects, it’s Finland that loses out in the end when it treats foreigners they way the immigration officials did. I believe things will change in Finland but it will take time.
Muchas gracias nuevamente y que tengas mucha suerte en México.
Enrique
Daniel
February 27, 2008
Why would you all want to live in redneck, White trash countries like Finland, Denmark, Iceland, Baltic nations etc. Come to germany, Canada, USA, Australia, France, Italy, Russia anywhere where they have “seen” and “experienced” Asian-African cultures in their own histories so the question of “exclusion” is automatically ruled out. Look at this way these Scandinavian countries in their 1000-year histories had ZERO interaction until recently with foreign cultures especially non-White cultures. So, that explains why when they look at you it’s as if you belong to another planet about to invade Earth.
I say let the fuckers stay alone. There are many open-minded countries in the world to live in. In any case, they have ageing populations, massive social security and declining birth rates. The bomb will explode 30-40 years from now when these countries will be BEGGING foreigners to come and be around them. All the SENSIBLE people in these countries have already left their shores to live in other lands.
I know the girls in these countries are pretty and quite easy to bed but that’s not the only reason for you to hang out with those xenophobes.
nemoo
February 27, 2008
You have a good point Daniel but what about if those people who “don’t look Finnish” have relatives in the country? In my opinion, one of the biggest challenges facing Finland — like many other European countries — is racism. It’s the most terrible thing that can hit a society because this illness aims to reduce a person’s chances of growing and taking part in society. Many thanks for your comment.
Enrique
Daniel
February 27, 2008
Enrique
For those people stuck in Finland due to spouse/kids etc. it’s indeed a bitter pill to swallow. They should make arrangements to live in other countries and if in Finland, mix in those communities only which have large expat populations. From my own experience -ignorant, bigoted people cannot be corrected so don’t have high hopes. They can be merely “tolerated”. Learn to discriminate just as easily as these mindless bigots. I understand if you look non-Finnish, constant harassment is a day-to-day reality. So I’d advise you to wear that indifferent, condescending smile and develop skills to avoid fights/brawls. As the saying goes in a movie Harold and Kumar go to White Castle, “There’s no point in getting all riled up everytime some idiot gives you a hard time”. When I was in West Virginia (which is the most redneck state of the USA), I learnt to avoid those hang-out places where these losers most often converged, especially after boozing all nights (well they drink in daytime too). Mostly pubs, nightclubs, bars should be off limits (in any case, alcohol is not good for your body and mind).
I can also see there may be lots of “educated” Finns with university degrees who are no less-opinionated. I say, screw them too. Mix in foreigners clubs’ and socialize with like-minded people. Try to send your children to international schools popular among Embassy staff.
I have lots of experience in dealing with White trash of the lowest forms (I once almost gatecrashed into a Klan meeting). If you want to talk more about your experiences, feel free to write me.
Sincerely
Daniel
Vincent
March 26, 2008
I´m so glad I found this site. I´m planing to study in Norway for a few of years, it’s good to know the situations I might be facing once I get there. Somehow these countries have a good reputation of tolerance, hmm, I wonder how they managed to keep all this shit out of international public sight.
Enrique
March 26, 2008
Vincent, thank you for your comment! Good luck with your studies in Norway.
Enrique
ed
March 27, 2008
Hi everyone, i have read all comments and they really give an insight into Finaland.
Am planning on studying in Helsinki for a few years too though i definately want to find a part time job as i study.
We need to be a bit tolerant to the Fins, they are still trying to adjust to globlization. hopefully the stigma will die off in a few years (30 – 40yrs)
The few i have met in my own country have really been nice to me, actually they are the ones who invited me to study in there country.
As for getting a job . . . … . NO IDEA.
Ed
gringo
April 3, 2008
Oye mis amigos,
You think you got screwed over by Finns?. I speak the language fluently know the customs, have relatives there and that was not good enough for these fucking nazi/ commi ingrates who continue to make me want to vomit by exploiting other countries, such as U.S, raking in untold amounts of money which they use to promote their own megalomania agenda. They think a few public handshakes with celebrities, and a few exchange student programs fulfills the expectations of the international community. I myself have been assaulted by racist Finnish cops for doing nothing. The fucking Finn cop even pushed my mother so hard that she flew back lost her balance and crashed on the floor in our family home which they had no business interloping. My grandfather was a veteran of the Finnish/ Russian war and this is how they pay us Westerners back. The jeaslousy is unprecedented my friends. It manifests into hate and know it is my turn. If you have been treated like a foe let your voice be heard. Yes I was also harassed at that sterilized Vantaa airport, strip searched for nothing and shunned from the University of Helsinki, jobs that I have a degree for and had my reputation expunged by these secretive backstabbers in their offices. They think there technology is winning people. Fuck em!
Mo
April 21, 2008
I recently did an entertainment gig in Finland. The biggest mistake of my career. I didn’t know Finns were so racist against black people until I came here. I have never been treated so bad in my life or treated like a common criminal. I worked on a ferry traveling from Sweden to Finland and back and mostly Finnish ride it. From the first day until the last I had doors slammed in my face, people not getting on elevators because I was there, the dirtiest looks I have ever had, people talking about me in finnish like I wasn’t there, I was called a nigger, I was attacked onstage, coming through customs I was stopped because “I triggered the dog” and I was searched, all my bags searched, but the drug dog laid down and almost went to sleep while they were searching me! There are other issues too numerous to mention here but I have never been treated so bad in even the most remote places of the south in the United States. Finland makes it plain that they don’t want black entertainers in their country and I would tell any black entertainer, stay away!
Enrique
April 24, 2008
Hi Mo, Gringo and Ed, many thanks for your comments. I was really moved by what Mo said. It sounded like the US South in the 1950s or apartheid South Africa. Even if we struck a near-fatal blow to Nazism and their deranged racial ideas, the same idea lives on in many parts of the world. The Nazi racist ideology spearheaded by the likes of Alfred Rosenberg and Heinrich Himmler are the antithesis of Canadian policy on multiculturalism. Normal people think that it is a GOOD matter that people and cultures mix while others, like Nazi Germany, thought it weakened the Germans! (Read Rosenberg’s “The myth of the 20th century). It’s incredible that this particular post on racism in Finland has received the most comments. It shows that racism is and continues to be a very big problem in Finland. I know this may be a difficult question: How do we solve it? What should immigrants do in Finland to undermine racism.
Malik
May 2, 2008
I have been living in Finland for over 3 years now. I have faced racism in everyday life, and I believe job discrimination is the most disappointing thing in Finland. I have spent last two summers in UK, and I can clearly see the difference.
I am graduating next autumn, and will rush out of this country asap (will most probably move to UK). But I must say, some (I really mean, some) Finns have been really nice to me. And I have always wished best for Finland. I hope the conditions change here soon, and locals try to accept the foreigners as a part of their country.
dingo1931
May 11, 2008
Hmmmm… Me being a brown skinned latino immigrant from Dominican Republic in the US I have experienced the opposite while visiting other so-called third world countries like my own: Venezuela, Colombia, Panama, Mexico I always had great experiences there and made some good friendships. My visits were work related (I am a videographer) and lasting about 2 months each – so I was not really the Hawaiian shirt/camera totting tourist type. While in Europe I felt just “tolerated” in Switzerland and Belgium but I have to say people are very polite those countries. Last year I visited Liberia, West Africa. People there were very friendly and welcoming despite their recent 14 years civil war. My point is… the world is a big place, if you have to live outside your own country, by all means try to choose one place you really like. Isn’t that the whole point of migrating, search of a better life, the pursue of happiness? I live in Miami, FL which is a safe haven for immigrants and it’s actually called “the second city of Latin America” but I would not live here at the expense of my happiness and my dignity. My two cents…Thank you for reading me
elgreco
May 11, 2008
Finland is the worst racist country I have ever been. Yes, racism is everywhere ( a reply I get always from Fins ) but here its 10 times bigger.
Fins don’t like critic because their country is so ” perfect ” inclusive it’s racism and non-democratic hostile fascist mentality.
I am being harassed since 2 years by a racist cop and there seems to be no way of stopping him. In the end Eurojust and the London police department got involved being on my site. He lost but won’t give up. The whole story is on Youtube user Seaniehunter.
More on the 00server webpage
I felt more secure 2 years after the dictatorship in Greece of 67-74
Read the comments on the Uranus webpage. Link from my boras websites.
The only thing that can change Finland is if we foreigners speak out
Nigel Watson
May 11, 2008
I lived in Finland for 2 years.
I can also confirm that racism in Finland is off the scale. Being on the receiving end of prejudice is not nice. The BBC series “Children of the Nazis” helped me to understand how/why racism in Finland is so ingrained. Finns are taught to be racist at school and at home by their parents. I left and came home because I felt that the situation wouldn’t change in a hurry.
Mikko
May 13, 2008
“What should immigrants do in Finland to undermine racism.”
Being a Finn I think I can give you a tip: learn something about Finland before you’ll start thinking how to fix it. I read this thread through and found few examples of racism. A Finn calling someone a nigger is probably motivated by racism. However, those perceptions of being “excluded” for being foreigners are due to your imaginations. Everyone is “excluded” here, because Finns don’t talk to strangers. I have lived in this town for 10 years and got very few new friends from here.
Second, if you do not speak Finnish, how on earth you think of getting a job? Finns are overeducated. We have absolutely no need for “master’s in marketing and new media”, we have plenty of unemployed academics already. For every qualified immigrant there is ten qualified Finns. Should they hire the foreigner just to prove that they are not racists? What Finland lacks is people who are willing to work underpaid in lousy jobs that Finns do not accept. As for there being no immigrants in the parliament, the answer is: there has not been deserving candidates.
“I think racism and the plight of immigrants in Finland could be brought into the lime light if influential people in the country can boldly stand up in front of the national media and condemn racism. But the question is, even if this is done, will it be given enough air time and prominence?”
This one quote demonstrates the astonishing lack of knowledge you people have about Finland. This has been done over 20 years almost daily basis, including by our president. Finns are not taught to be racist at school, in fact, to the contrary.
Have you ever thought, that Finns might have bad experiences of certain groups of foreigners (and unfairly reflect it back on those who might not deserve it)? The first visible groups of foreigners entering Finland were Somalis, and this was when the country was going through a period of major recession. And let’s say that they have done a share of things making them deserve their bad reputation.
There are some real problems in Finnish society bad racism is not in top 5.
Antti
May 13, 2008
wow, reading through these comments has been an experiense.
Are you sure it is not you who has problem tolerating us? I mean, as far as I have gotten to know my countrymen, we do mostly tolerate in huge quantities and often in my opinion, we tolerate bit too much and give in too easy.
Now that you live in this country, do you tolerate the original people or you would you accept us only if we were similar in nature and culture as people familiar to you? If we talk about living in Finland, which one should adapt? I suppose there is work for both but can you really say that Finns, the people who are always so worried of what others think of us, would not try to get along?
I know there are also some very, very narrow-minded people here, we do have our lower class of intellect. We have crooks and we have people who have never been outside their hometown. So does your country propably. But reading these comments made me think that who is it here that is making unreasonable generalizations and putting everyone in the same group?
Oh, and yes I have to admit that this Finnish way of drinking in too much is very embarrassing for us.
For that guy who was asked questions by the police: so have I. I look just like everyone else here. That is not racism, that is life. Police made a mistake. I have also been taken into their car for similar mistake. (when I was younger, quite a number of times in fact…) No big deal. If you qualify everything unpleasant as “racism”, you will find a lot of racism. Racism is when someone is being treated unfairly or threatened because of ethnic origin. That does not mean that any crappy thing that happens to you is racism.
But hey, if you don’t get the job you wanted, or if you meet an unpleasant person or police stops you or you get a parking-ticket it has to be racism!
Where else in the world can you move to and get along about everywhere without knowing a word of local language? My experience has been that most often you are getting second class treatment if you don’t know the language. Try living in Paris and decide not to learn French language…. Here they’ll try to speak English to you if you don’t speak our language.
We are propably not similar kind of people as in your original country. You may have known to expect that when you moved to a foreign country?
Finns take their time to warm up for new people. When we speak in a tone that may sound boring to you, it does not mean that we hate you. If we just shake hands and not hug, it is the way that at least finnish men greet each other. It does not mean that you are not welcome. The fact that we don’t verbalise and act out all of our feelings does not mean that we dont have them. We are just kind of like slightly shy and slightly melancholic compared to many other nations. We also keep little more physical distance when having a conversation than many people from southern countries do. We usually wait for invitation before going to other people’s houses, so if your neighbour has not yet come to ring your doorbell… we’ll don’t hold your breath waiting for it. They might still like to get to know you.
I remember one Russian woman in a newspaper telling that every time she hears Finns speak, she is afraid cause she thinks that they are angry and aggressive. Well, we do speak very differently from Russians and if she judges this as aggression, then what can be done? I hope some day she understands that if our speaking is different, it does not mean that we are angry.
Are you sure that some of this racism does not come from misunderstandings? (Not claiming that there isn’t racism, but just asking sincerely….)
And Mr Watson, Finnish children are not taught to be racist. That and many other comments on this chain would qualify as racism.
Maby you guys give us a chance some day? I think I can say that most of us will welcome here anyone who is ready to respect our way of life and participate in Finnish society in a constructive way.
And to those of you who truly hate Finland and Finns, as many stated… why the hell are you here???? I assume no-one has ever been taken here by force and kept in! It is not good for you to live in a place that you hate and it is not good for us to have among us people who hate us! Go somewhere else and be happy!
Jukka Rasi
May 13, 2008
A bit harsh piece of text. Just a couple of thoughts from a fin, who doesn’t think he’s a racist, but according to your text, maybe I am(?).
First I would like to state that from everyone’s point of view it tends to be bad to claim something/someone racists because someone else feels so. How the hell can we determine anything if we judge it by how someone else feels? I could get affended by something everyone else thinks is very strange, like if someone complements me or something else weird, can I now call the other person racist or something else? There needs to be a clear definition what is “racism” and we should judge situations by the definition. Any other way the term gets used too much and it loses it’s meaning,and then when the term should be used, it doesn’t have the meaning it should have.
Now to the list by which you define someone/something racist.
1&2 How does self-employment or unemployment somehow magically get people treat someone like a racist? Only thing I can imagine is the basic dislike to people who are unemployded which some people have. When the unemployed is a foregneir,the dislike doesn’t magically transform to rasism. Sometimes it can mean that, but you can’t draw definite conclusions from that.
3, Finns give everyone strange looks. At least I tend to give. I get nervous around strange people, no matter what the colour.
4, Well this is something that might or might not happen, I don’t have enough information about it. All I know that on some cases the police tends to attend more of their suspisions to foreign people, when the statistics tell that some group makes more of that kind of crime. It has nothing(depends on the officer) to do with racism.
6, WTF?
7, I am distrustful of everyone, no matter what the colour,language or social status. Can’t speak for the whole of Finland, but maybe we just don’t trust people so much.
8, We don’t like to talk to strangers, but we sure do like to spy on them. Just look on the daily magazines “Iltalehti” and “Iltasanomat”. Not something im proud of
9, and how do you measure this? Kind of hard to say anything.
10, do you always know less that the opponent when you are depating? Maybe the other one just knows more? Finns like to argue and most really don’t know the right way to do it, but when a Finn knows something for sure, he/she doesn’t accept anything else until someone proves he/she is wrong. At least this is the way I depate, I don’t see any point in surrendering when the opponent doesn’t have anything better to offer or even to disprove my point.
You can just call us shitty,introvert,boring,stupid,ignorant and passive, but please don’t call us racist, when it’s just the crazy ass culture you don’t understand. Or atleast first give some clear definition for the term “racist” so we can atleast check what the fuck is that makes us them.
ps. Sorry you didn’t like your stay here
And for you to know, I don’t really like to be here either, but it has nothing to do with racism. Some things are just going down the toilet, like freedom of speech 
Enrique
May 14, 2008
Thank you Mikko for your comment. I don’t believe you make a valid point by stating that these people don’t know anything about Finland. They all express their experiences which were made through their knowledge of the country. In my opinion, Finland is a great country but there is one problem: racism. As you know, the aim of racism is to exclude people. In a society like Finland, there are very marked boundaries of exclusion and inclusion. Look at the unemployment figures for foreigners. When one is without a job or feels marginalized that is not a figment of imagination – it is something very real. You talk about the lack of language skills. What about if I tell you that in Spain there are many Latin American who speak Spanish are their mother tongues and know the Spanish culture and are still discriminated. It’s not only a language issue.
Thank you Antti. You make an excellent point: racism comes from misunderstanding. Think of how much money we waste and pain we cause on others because of such misunderstanding. Why can’t people express their opinions if they live in a country? Don’t you think that a good old debate about a very sensitive issue like racism and discrimination is a good matter? Racism and discrimination occurs everywhere and wherever it occurs it is a shameful act.
Jukka, your comments are welcome and many thanks. These are thoughts that I collected during my long stay in Finland. YOu might disagree with them, but I do believe they make a point. The biggest problem in Finland with respect to the small foreign population is that it is very maladapted. Unemployment and self-employment figures speak for themselves. But how do we look forward? How do we find synergy? How does Finland become a society more open to foreigners – and, very importantly, which can integrate them. That I believe is the secret of a dynamic society: one that can accept others and benefit from others.
Enrique
May 24, 2008
Hi Nigel, sorry for this late response to your comment. I read your very moving letter in 65 degrees North. I hope you are well in Surrey. Unfortunately, some children at Finnish schools are taught at home that its acceptable to discriminate against others. Once, about 15 years ago when I wrote for the Financial Times form Helsinki, I mentioned this problem to a reporter who was visiting from Wisconsin. I told him that “some Finns are racist and proud of this fact.” Finns’ concept of what is a country and its people is framed on a lot of mistrust for outsiders, like Russians. Certainly they have a right to be suspicious looking at the history but we must ask: for how long?
Racism is still alive and kicking in this country because people and children have not been taught better. One should be ashamed of being a racist as opposed to being proud of such a fact, which is more the norm today.
adiel4
May 25, 2008
hmmm…. check this out. what a difference.
http://www.gringoes.com/articles.asp?ID_Noticia=2128
Embo
May 28, 2008
What you guys might not realize is that not all idiotic treatment you get from Finnis is racism – it’s the norm. That’s how Finns treat each other. You cannot of course see the Finnish social reality through Finnish eyes, but a lot of the stuff you desctribe seems just your average garden variety Finnish life.
Here’s an example. I was in Tampere railway station once, sitting on a bench waiting for a train, minding my own business, when a policeman approached me and asked me in a very rude manner: “WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO? WHAT IS YOUR NAME?”. I asked him what he needed the information for, and he got even more upset: “IT’S FOR A MISSION I AM ASSIGNED TO”. To avoid handcuffing and other such problems I gave him my destination and name, and he went away.
Had I been a foreigner, I would have attributed that to my foreigness. However, I am a Finn (and a very normal-and-nerdy-looking too, no piercings or dreadlocks etc), and I attribute that incident to me just being there. That’s Finland for you.
Jonas
May 28, 2008
With the exception of point number 10, I find it difficult to see how experiencing these things means that one is experiencing racism. My neighbour is self-employed and he’s Finnish. There are unemployed Finnish people as well. The Police can be arses to everyone, they don’t have to be considering your race to be rude. I was once on the receiving end of a particularly rude traffic policeman near Salo. Now, of course there is racism in Finland. But I just think your numbered points are very misleading.
This government has arguably done more to make life easier for immigrants than any previous one. It needs to do more. Much more. There are however signs it will do more. Migration minister Astrid Thors is being very active in this area and I am assuming you have seen the recent recommendations from Ole Norrback. Thors is trying to change the culture at the renamed Migration Authority for example. No easy task. Things will not happen over night. But remember, as a society we are far nearer to the start of our journey towards a more multicultural society than many other countries. It’s only very recently that we’re had foreigners in any visible numbers in our country. I’m sure if you looked at the history of other countries at the same stage as us in this respect, you would sadly find racism was prelevant there also. It takes time – some people are always scared of the unknown which is probably the primary source of racism. I am not at all attempting to excuse it.
I must also say, as a Finnish person, that some of the remarks left as comments to this post also display racism towards Finns which is rather hypercritical. Surely all racism is bad. I do think some of these cases of reported racism are more likely cultural misunderstandings. If you come from a more talkative naturally social society, you may find cause to believe that random strangers not suddenly being all chatty with you means that they are avoiding you because of your race. Likelihood is that they would be as equally unchatty with a fellow Finn.
Unfortunately if immigrants become overly negative and take this to the extreme that they themselves become racist towards Finnish people, then this will be counter-productive, as it will just feed the flames of the real racists amongst the population. It’s important to debate these matters moderately.
Enrique
May 28, 2008
Hi Jonas, I agree with you that things are changing for the better in Finland and that the government wants to change things. Matters must change because immigration is a formidable force for a country. Look at Canada, the United States, Brazil, Argentina, Australia and other nations that see immigration as a resource not a threat. When we understand this as Finns we can start to reap some fruits. Has Swedish culture undermined Finland? Certainly not. Finland is richer as a country because of the Swedish-speaking Finns. One interesting matter to look at is the Immigration Immigration Service. An example that things are changing is that it is a “service” not “an aliens office” as it was called a long time ago. How many times has the name of this office changed in the last 30 years? I believe many times, which reflects how public officials see immigration.
When I lived in the US in the 1960s and 1970s, I saw how matters started to change on this front. In the 1970s, when Afro Americans were getting more recognition and political power thanks to people like Martin Luther King, the relationship between different ethnic groups started to change. One notable matter was how a “White” related with a “Black.” You learned that some things should not be said when with Blacks. Dealing with people from other cultures means learning about them. They are also gain a lot when they learn about your culture. By understanding this aspect, communication and friction is undermined. It’s a two-way street.
Enrique
May 28, 2008
Hi Embo, what you are talking about are the fine points of dealing with people. Some might feel that a certain comment is racist. If you know their culture and that they may see such a comment in this fashion, why say it? Take a look at my comment to Jonas.
ausfi
June 11, 2008
I am a Finn of 70 years, and my bags have been gone through at a Finnish and a Norwegian airport, I’m sure my looks were not the reason.
My 22-year old daughter was sniffed by the dog and searched, there was nothing of course.
Finns in general might not be very chatty, but there are many exceptions to the rule. As to the language, my husband was Australian. I was once chatting happily with a Finnish lady with a cat, when my husband came along and said something in English. The lady vanished quickly. She probably did not speak English and did not know many foreigners. Of course there’s racism, people still are not used to coloured people, or even just foreigners. Having lived in Australia has changed my attitude, so has having African friends. People have to be educated, more meetings between Finns and foreigners should be arranged, for people to learn to associate with other races and cultures.
The Finns seem to fear all that is unfamiliar to them, or they generalize their bad experiences.
I live in Norway and it has worried me though, how often, while visiting Finland, for ex. Africans have not met my eyes or responded to something I have said. To me, that shows fear of the Finns, which probably means fear of racism.
DeTant Blomhat
June 12, 2008
“My feelings, in summary was that, the average Finn, no matter how educated, less educated, enlightened, less enlightened he/she is, knows deeply from his heart that he/she is smarter/better than a foreigner-no matter where the foreigner comes from (europe, africa, asia, america).”
Well what should they then feel – that they are *inferior* ? Are they supposed to welcome foreign masters who come to deliver them from the darkness of stone age and teach them wonderful things of civilization?
Maybe the thing is that the locals put everyone on the same level. And if you don’t know things, understand the language and miss all the cultural subtleties… well, are you not then in a disadvantaged position?
DeTant Blomhat
June 12, 2008
“Come to germany, Canada, USA, Australia, France, Italy, Russia anywhere where they have “seen” and “experienced” Asian-African cultures in their own histories so the question of “exclusion” is automatically ruled out. Look at this way these Scandinavian countries in their 1000-year histories had ZERO interaction until recently with foreign cultures especially non-White cultures. So, that explains why when they look at you it’s as if you belong to another planet about to invade Earth.”
Oh, so now it is *our* fault we didn’t go invading other countries, imposing our culture on the natives, destroy native cultures and keep slaves? So very nice of you to consider that aspect to be somehow wrong as well?
DeTant Blomhat
June 12, 2008
“I don’t believe you make a valid point by stating that these people don’t know anything about Finland. They all express their experiences which were made through their knowledge of the country. In my opinion, Finland is a great country but there is one problem: racism.”
Yes, the problem surely isn’t the foreigners that base their racist opinions on Finland due to their their lack of knowledge of Finnish culture.
“What about if I tell you that in Spain there are many Latin American who speak Spanish are their mother tongues and know the Spanish culture and are still discriminated. It’s not only a language issue.”
What about it? This is Finland and not Spain. If there were foreigners without a language problem being discriminated against then you would have something to compare with.
“Why can’t people express their opinions if they live in a country?”
Usually if you go to some other peoples home you don’t start giving them opinions on how they are conducting their house. You don’t step inside with your shoes on. Or you may do so, but then you see nobody else is wearing their shoes, and maybe you start thinking. What you are saying here not only should we let someone into my home with their shoes on, but they have a right to do so? And I am a racist if i don’t invite him over another time? Yes, really it is more you people that have a problem with your own stupidity than racism if that is how you think things ought to be done.
Finland has allowed – among the first nations in Europe a freedom of worship for moslems and jews, universal suffrage, and in the latest times – in how many countries do you get your kids a right to be taught in their mother tongue? In Finland you are allowed to have your own religion and culture and political opinion and whatnot without disturbing others in the society. And “racism” is the “biggest problem” in Finland? Really, I think the only problem is Finns don’t put foreigners on a pedestal and worship them as Gods.
And if you are wondering why there isn’t much if any immigrant origin people in the politics. how about educating yourself on Finnish history, looking at the statistics of immigration, calculating the populatiuon at any given time, and then wondering why someone stating “but the average racist finnish voter will rather vote for his dog rather than vote for a foriegner.” is definitely likely to get some offending remarks about his stupidity. So yes, it is definitely the racism of the Finns that is the problem? Really? Yes, we are racists if it comes to accepting stupidity.
Enrique
June 12, 2008
Hi DeTant,
Yes, the problem surely isn’t the foreigners that base their racist opinions on Finland due to their their lack of knowledge of Finnish culture.
Am I defending racism on either side?
What about it? This is Finland and not Spain. If there were foreigners without a language problem being discriminated against then you would have something to compare with.
I make a very valid point. You can always find excuses why people DO NOT adapt. Even if they learned Finnish some other excuse would be made up. Why don’t you give me a reason why we should hire a person on his merits?
Usually if you go to some other peoples home you don’t start giving them opinions on how they are conducting their house. You don’t step inside with your shoes on. Or you may do so, but then you see nobody else is wearing their shoes, and maybe you start thinking. What you are saying here not only should we let someone into my home with their shoes on, but they have a right to do so? And I am a racist if i don’t invite him over another time? Yes, really it is more you people that have a problem with your own stupidity than racism if that is how you think things ought to be done.
Finland is not a house. It is a country with laws and belongs to the EU. There is a big difference. The way cultural differences are undermined is by learning about the other culture. Finns should now what hurts other nationalities like other nationalities should know what is improper to tell Finns. It’s an easy formula. Some, possibly you, think that you just bring foreign workers to this country and it requires you to not change a bit.
Finland has allowed – among the first nations in Europe a freedom of worship for moslems and jews, universal suffrage, and in the latest times – in how many countries do you get your kids a right to be taught in their mother tongue? In Finland you are allowed to have your own religion and culture and political opinion and whatnot without disturbing others in the society. And “racism” is the “biggest problem” in Finland? Really, I think the only problem is Finns don’t put foreigners on a pedestal and worship them as Gods.
Just because there are problems in Finnish society concerning racism/discrimination, the solution is not putting anyone on a pedestal. Is this how you solve problems with a fellow Finn?
And if you are wondering why there isn’t much if any immigrant origin people in the politics. how about educating yourself on Finnish history, looking at the statistics of immigration, calculating the populatiuon at any given time, and then wondering why someone stating “but the average racist finnish voter will rather vote for his dog rather than vote for a foriegner.” is definitely likely to get some offending remarks about his stupidity. So yes, it is definitely the racism of the Finns that is the problem? Really? Yes, we are racists if it comes to accepting stupidity.
One of the matters that I have not done is censor anyone who wants to make a comment. I don’t agree with all the statements but some feel that way. Let’s address the issues and move on.
DeTant Blomhat
June 13, 2008
“Am I defending racism on either side?”
Well yes you are because it is the Finns and Finland that has the problem and nobody else.
“Even if they learned Finnish some other excuse would be made up”
Actually the language thing is more based on the fact that the employer doesn’t have the time to teach “everything that everybody knows” to a foreigner, as a Finn “knows” certain things but a foreigner probably “knows” these things differently. Usually if a person knows Finnish they have been in the country long enough to have the Finnish “know”. The core issue is to avoid conflict. Like some Finn then says to the new employee something its immediately the foreigner screaming racism and the Finn accusing the one of being too dumb to do work. This is however true in the more prole jobs. In higher niche jobs the Finnish or the knowledge come secondary. What should be done by the government is to employ some sort of “godfathers” who know both sides “know” and can work for boths sides as a trusted person so that the chance of conflict is taken away. Very simple thing, but it has to be some sort of government involvement as only the very large companies have this kind of systems running.
“The way cultural differences are undermined is by learning about the other culture”
How about learning the Finnish culture first – theres millions of different cultures in the World, how much time does a Finn need to spend learning every single foreigners culture? And whose culture should I for example learn first?
See now there is the problem, every foreigner thinks *they* are the first one, but they are in Finland. So unfortunately it is the Finns who decide what is right, what is wrong, what are the standards, what are the laws. Like Swedes do in Sweden, Canadians in Canada and so forth. or is there something wrong with the right of self-determination?
No, I am not saying there isn’t problems with people being racists, and there being discrimination. However like above Mikko says “don’t call us racist if its the crazy ass culture you do not understand”. Recently it has become some sort of “Boy yelling wolf” thing – if a Finn wearing sandals is told “wrong shoes, come tomorrow” in a disco door the finn curses and continues. A foreigner immediately starts yelling “racism” even its the same cluelessness that makes him go to a suit&tie place dressed in sandals.
So the only “problem” I have here is that everything is called “racism” when it is not.
DeTant Blomhat
June 13, 2008
And this questionnaire is totally idiotic. This means everyone living in Finland including me is a subject of racism. I have been unemployed, given strange looks, had to wait offical papers for ages, been considered very guilty by the police, been treated too nicely, watched over at work, not been trusted as a stranger, my mistakes are always been larger than life…
But no, I’ve never been self-employed and very seldom lost a debate.
So if these are your symptoms of “racism” really no wonder any Finn would give you a strange look
1. The self-employment of foreigners is an interesting thing – basically boiling down to also that they dare to take the chance and are not worried of debt and banktrupcy like Finns.
2. The unemployment figures need a breakdown by age and skillset. Theres some clear trends there that explain a few things.
3. The looks thing has been discussed… googleplex times. Yes, Finns do, stare back.
4. Especially if you have the wrong papers in the wrong order and “think it works like at home” or try to be creative.
5. Again, only guilty people get involved with the police to start with – would the Finns say.
6. OK, so you people are then never satisfied. if you don’t say hello to your neighbor thats “racism” and now if I do say hello to my neighbour it is “racism”. Make up your bloody mind.
7. Finns trust someone if they know him or know of him and even then after proof. So if you are a Finnish sngineer another Finnish engineer knows what you studied and how. If you’re an engineer from somewhere else how can they know? They have to see that you prove yourself.
9. Depends if a Finn would have known something that such a mistake wouldn’t have been done. Maybe there is the reason for watching…
10. As I have proved, you do
No, really, somneone debating with a Finn should know what they are talking about based on facts. Finns don’t debate except to prove the other side wrong especuially if they have a feeling they are right.
Enrique
June 13, 2008
Hi, why is the table idiotic? It tell a lot. But let’s go through it one by one:
1. By being self-employed, the foreigner has to because otherwise he’d be unemployed. Since he cannot be employed, he has to crease his own employment. It’s like the people at the unemployment office telling you that a solution to your unemployment is self-employment.
2. Unemployment among foreigners is about 20% versus about 6% for the whole of the country. In some national groups unemployment may be over 70% while the lowest unemployment is found among the Chinese (8%).
3. OK
4. OK
5. Yes, but in Western law we are innocent before proven guilty. In some dictatorships like in Argentina (1976-83) nobody questioned when the police or army took you away. People would justify it by stating: “If they caught him, it is for a reason.”
6. Why aren’t people treated “normally.” I don’t think a sensible foreigner wants special treatment. He/she wants equal treatment.
7. This has a little to do with #6. In order to prove my worth, I have to work twice as hard and if I make a mistake its a bigger thing than normal.
9. check 7
10. OK.
I’m sorry to hear about the things that have happened to you. It’s not racism but discrimination. By the way, if you think you are so smart and know so much about racism, why don’t you tell me how you’d revise this chart.
Enrique
DeTant Blomhat
June 14, 2008
1. & 2. Oh, so where does it seem someone is *entitled* to a job? Is there some billboard on the border saying “come to Finland, you get luxury!”? No there doesn’t read anything like that. Anyone in Finland *knows* and this is *knows* not what you foreigners may “think”, the Finns *know* that finding a job and keeping it is a very long and hard process.
OK, I went to Dublin a few years back and took “tourist photos” – I usually take photos of something extraordinary I don’t see at home. Do you know what I took pictures of? Every shop window had a “help wanted” advert or two. I mean when do you see something like that in Helsinki? The economy is crap and a fresh graduate in Finland – a Finnish one – is more likely to find his first job abroad than in Finland, or then sit unemployed 6-8 months… been there done that.
So then who are these foreigners who come to Finland? Say the Chinese? They are professionals to fit the niche job. The unemployed is probably a spouse that follows. Who is the 70% unemployeds? Say a refugee with traumas who is in a totally different universe…. readily employable. Those people who come here for a job usually have a job. Then theres your lovesicj spouses that classically follow the hot blonde to some godforsaken hoick town to live at the farm because its cheap. Then they figure out as the local unemployment rate is in the 40′s they very seldom find a niche to fit in. And if you do not fit into a higher grade niche and want a customer service job – well you need to know Finnish, you need to know “how stuff works” and you need to know someone to employ you.As easy as that. The foreigner just landed is no speak, think foreign and lacks the network. A Finnish-speaking Finn that works as a coctail bartender would know thse “facts of life” if he went and moved to Närpes to live on a farm. No can speak, no can do anything with the cows, doesn’t know anyone to give a good word at the local Esso bar. Which already has full staff.
So what is so extraordinary about foreigners they cannot cope with the same facts of life?
And not to forget some cultures having the wife at home taking care of the family – which in Finnish statistics is “unemployed” even if by choice.
5. This is Finland. (imagine a shrug and a sigh)
6. Yes but the point exactly is that Finns have defined in their culture which is “normal”. Foreigners in foreign countries find different things as “normal”. So if a Finn treats a foreigner like a Finn – then the foreigner gets upset. Now you are saying we may not consider their special needs? As they might find the “Finnish normal” a bit too hard to cope with.
7. Well, in Finland you do have to prove your worth. Lets have the city boy moved to the farm in Närpes. Now how long do you think it takes for the farmer to trust him with the machinery?
I am just as sorry that you have a delusional view of Finland. We do not have problems what you describe – or lets say we have other problems that should be taken care of first and then we can concentrate on the few idiots in our midst. Yes, you go find blogs on blogspot with a few trigger words and Finland seems like Onkel Adis wonderland. Yeah, find any other country and you find your kooks. They’re not a “problem” as long as they keep their kookdom to themselves. After all, we’re not allowed to discriminate on ideological basis.
OK, so I make a difference between “racism” which is something requiring a belief in different races based on some delusional theories from the 18th century. So I find calling “Finns racists” an offensive term implying we’re uneducated or something like forest natives. Discrimination may have nothing to do with skin color, because of ethnicity is a different thing alltogether. A person doing that may believe in those delusional theories or then not.
OK, so to your list:
1. Has a person who in his/her trade or profession, service of the general public, exercise of official authority or other public function or in the arrangement of a public amusement or meeting, without a justified reason refused you service in accordance with the generally applicable conditions; refused you entry to the amusement or meeting or ejected you; or placed you in an unequal or an essentially inferior position owing to your race, national or ethnic origin, colour, language, sex, age, family ties, sexual preference, state of health, religion, political orientation, political or industrial activity or another comparable circumstance?
2. Has someone spread statements or other information among the public where you as a member of a certain race, a national, ethnic or religious group or a comparable group is threatened, defamed or insulted?
If the answer is “yes” then you have a case. Anhdnoting the “justified case” again the definition is as per 6 the “Finnish definition of the justification”. Which brings us back to the issue that a foreigner may feel being treated unfairly, because its “his definition of fair” which may not be the definition generally used in Finland. Get my drift?
DeTant Blomhat
June 14, 2008
And yeah, one favorite example of mine. A guy sends 100 applications and gets no answers. How about fact: Finnish companies are crap in answering. Which isn’t nice, but what can one do? Finn gives a “thats Finland” and a shrug, but the foreigner starts screaming “racism”. Can you imagine how damn irritating that comes after a while?
Chiva Congelado
June 17, 2008
I’m fortunate enough to have good Finnish friends, a Finnish wife and a good job here in Finland, to which I originally came to pursue my studies. I also speak Finnish fluently (albeit with an accent), so nobody can tell me I don’t know the local culture after living here for most of my adult life, and keep on learning every day. I am Mexican by origin and definitely don’t look like the general population hereabouts.
However, my experiences are contradictory. At work and within my own circle of friends and acquaintances everything is just great, but I’ve had encountered scepticism (or outright hostility) when I leave my “bubble”, from e.g. bank personnel, police, or general people in the street. I’ve been shouted at (by an alcoholic), shoved and almost beaten (at a bar) and spat at (by a 12 year old!?!?!), although thankfully these occasions have been few and far between, or else I’d packed my bags ages ago.
I wouldn’t go as far as saying that Finland is racist, but it is true that since people don’t have a contact with foreigners they fear what they don’t know. For more info, check this out: http://www.mol.fi/mol/fi/99_pdf/fi/06_tyoministerio/06_julkaisut/06_tutkimus/tpt286.pdf
Ahmad
June 23, 2008
Hi guys,
I am considering to work in Finland for three years. The company is waiting for my answer should I want to go or not. If I go, I will bring my wife (who covers her head) and my kid. Should I be worried ???
I appreciate any kind of feedback
From my name I guess you can tell what religion I embraced
Regards
Ahmad
Enrique
June 23, 2008
Hi Ahmad, many thanks for your interest in the blog and taking part in this debate. As you know, moving to a country is like getting on a new path: many new experiences await you. If I were Arabic I’d get in touch with an association and speak directly with people from your country and ask many of them their opinions. Possibly http://www.arabsu.org/ would be a good starting point. I encourage any other to give Ahemad the advice he may need.
Ahmad
June 23, 2008
Enrique,
I am a Malaysian actually. I would love to think that Finnish are a good bunch of people. But this discussion got me worried …though I know racism is everywhere..even in my own coutry sometimes we have that too.
Anyway..I will give you folks the benefits of the doubt…
Enrique
June 23, 2008
Hi Ahmed, since there are few foreigners that live in Finland, each that arrives is a sort of pioneer. If you are being contracted to work in Finland from Malaysia, it suggests that you have a good profession to offer a company. However, why not ask your employer what kind of a place Finland would be for a family like yours. I think it is a fair question to ask.
Finlandesa
July 1, 2008
Ahmad!
Don´t go there. The culture is so different. You will have the biggest culture shock in your life.
DeTant Blomhat
July 6, 2008
Ahmad. You should only be worried if you intend to act like you were living home in Malaysia and then scream racism if you suddenly face the fact you are living in Finland. You are moving to a foreign country so if everything was like at home it wouldn’t be a foreign country, now would it?
OK, lets say if a Finn came to Malaysia and screamed “racism” he was not allowed to drink alcohol, scream “xenophobia” there was no sauna, and then demand you start serving pork in the company canteen to acommodate his needs. What would you say and do? Would you tell him – sorry this is Malaysia and we have our laws and customs…
So you try and figure this out with intelligence – what is “racism” and what is not.
DeTant Blomhat
July 6, 2008
And yes Ahmad, theres mosques, theres halal butchers, theres oriental spice stores and you can even get durian fruit from the thai market. And remember Finland was one of the first countries in Europe to give a freedom of worship to its moslem minority – we let everybody live how they want as long as they accept they live in our country according to how our society works. Same thing you go working in a business you accept the company values. And I suppose you’ll be working for the big N so theres people from all over, don’t think you’re somehow special.
DeTant Blomhat
July 6, 2008
Chiva Congelado wrote:
“my experiences are contradictory. At work and within my own circle of friends and acquaintances everything is just great, but I’ve had encountered scepticism (or outright hostility) when I leave my “bubble””
Ah, I did write about this somewhere. Finnish is in a sense a “tribal” or a “network” culture. So if you belong to “our” network/tribe you are “one of us” but if you are not of our network you are treated as air, or even worse. It is just… a thing that is.
“I wouldn’t go as far as saying that Finland is racist, but it is true that since people don’t have a contact with foreigners they fear what they don’t know.”
I would say that those people who don’t have a contact with foreigners are less in heart racist than then those who have had contacts, if the contacts have been negative. I mean people never seen foreigners can have these kind of prejudices and childish opinions but they still are willing to take the foreigner into their network. But then are those who have met one foreigner too many, maybe someplace in the suburbs or downtown with confrontations, violence and robberies. An old man in my old house got mugged by some somalians and after that every time he saw someone black he panicked – you think he will ever accept one to his network?
Ahmad
July 6, 2008
Finland desa
I have worked in Nigeria, France and Switzerland. I have also spent a large part of my life living in Australia. Culture shock is not a problem really..on the contrary I embraced it. I understand each of us have different cultures and values..all I am worried about is blatant racism thats all…
De Tant Blomhat
Thanks for the assurances. I am not in any way implying that I am special. Never cross my mind…as long as I can work, my wife and kids can have some fun with me in weekends..thats all I am asking for really…Not expecting special treatment if thats what you meant..
by the way..what do mean by “I suppose you’ll be working for the big N”..??
Enrique
July 7, 2008
Hi Ahmed, best of luck in Finland. I think De Tant meant big N to mean Nokia.
Ahmad
July 12, 2008
Enrique,
Thanks for the wish…and nope..not joining Nokia..am hoping to get a new Nokia phone there though..I assume it is cheap there in Finland hehehe
Enrique
July 12, 2008
Hi Ahmad, I don’t know how much those Nokia phones cost in your country. In some countries like Spain they give a mobile phone free when you decide to join an operator.
Take care.
John
July 12, 2008
Hi,
I think strip searching at Vaanta Airport is the order of the day. I came to Finland to study but on the day I arrived to Helsinki all black guys and 1 pakistani were told to wait for over 5hrs that they were verifying our Visas. Imagine all of us were taken in a police Van and strip searched in one of Vaanta under ground police quotas. I was so ashamed and humiliated I had never been treated like this before in my life. If you are a person of colour please expect this. I wrote to them and I got the same reply just like above. But can you imagine all of us 6 guys were strip searched!!!!
Now you Finns how would you feel if you visited another country and you were treated like that? The police force is bloody racist and so goes the whole Finland.
If I ever get a voice to speak for foreigners either at UN or else where I will never forget to mention this kind of treatment.
People should stop buying Nokia and Finnish products if Finns treat us like shit. If Americans treated Finns like that who went to America when Finland was facing hard times and they have helped build Finland when they came back, How would Finland have developed?
Never invite us to study with you if you want to strip search us naked without any reason.
assert(
July 13, 2008
as a person of color… i feel sad for those who face racism.. i have my own share… however… the racism europe is showing towards africans & arabs & turks is due to abuse of the welfare system of european nations by those ethnic groups mentioned above. the sad thing about this situation is that… even if you work hard enough in your host nation and pay tax.. and contribute to society…, despite your hard work.. all is lost in vain.. because of those who abuse the welfare system …you bacome stigmatised , you get a bad wrap.. and that is so sad. solution… STERILIZE people in third-world nations.
Enrique
July 13, 2008
Hi Assert, if you look at my “racism test” above for Finland, one of them is that if a foreigner commits a mistake or crime it’s magnified many fold. You forget to mention that Finns abuse the welfare state as well. Forced sterilization? It seems odd that you’d suggest a thing. Shame on you!
Enrique
July 13, 2008
Hi John, what can I say except that I feel saddened by the treatment you received. There are many similar comments in this blog from readers and it is a very worrying sign. Can anyone relate their experience.
I once once stopped by a Finnish policeman who asked me outright “when I am going to leave Finland.” One way to undermine this type of racist behavior by public officials are psychological tests and education at Finnish schools to nip racism in the bud.
DeTant Blomhat
August 8, 2008
Yeah John, just because you are ignorant doesn’t hide the fact that the Finnish newspapers are regularly full of articles of Finns being strip searched at US airports and worse. The fact remains Finland is one of the landing points to Schengen area and unfortunately you foreigners cause this for yourselves.
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Suspected+document+forgery+centre+uncovered+in+Helsinki+student+flat/1135238336262
So stop whining – I am not sorry at all this happened to you. Go look in the mirror at your own countrymen first who are cause of this prejudice against foreign students.
Besides which who are you beggar to come here to study free on my tax money to complain about anything? You can go back to scratch your ass in your own country – I did not invite you here to freeload on my tax money and complain on top. Ungrateful parasite beggar.
Enrique
August 8, 2008
Hei DeTant, this is the last warning I’m giving you. Do NOT insult others. Your comments and attitude show why your idea of turning people into Finns does not work. How do you expect people from other countries to embrace your culture if you insult them? First you impose something on them and then insult them. That does not sound very Finnish to me…
DeTant Blomhat
August 9, 2008
THEY ARE INSULTING ME IN MY OWN COUNTRY!!! If anyone has a problem with Finland its better not come here at all or then leave. Theres thousands of countries in the world where people can live in whatever kind of cultural environment they please. It pleases me to live in Finland and in a Finnish cultural environment. It is not necessary for anyone to come here and stay here if they do not like it. If they choose to come here then it is of their own free choice and it is they who choose my cultural environment. So I find it highly insulting someone comes to complain of life here – especially as we are giving thousands of foreigners from poorer countries the chance of free education – and what do we get in return? Disrespect and abuse of the system. And the abuse of the system is what is the worst part because due to the greed of the few now everyone is a suspect. And WAS IT FINNS WHO WERE DOING ANYTHING CRIMINAL? No – it was the foreigners who did something wrong and then come insult us on top. So that is my problem – you just do not see how insulting this is do you? Biting the hand that feeds you.
Stop blaming Finland of your own shortcomings.
Juha
August 17, 2008
I’m a Finnish man who has been working with foreigners (mainly refugees and asylum seekers) for years here in Finland. I’ve had the chance to witness the initial reactions of these people when they first arrive in this country, as well as the many difficulties (and often success) they later have when trying to integrate into Finnish society. I am a Finn, which means I obviously have an insight into the opinions that normal Finns have about foreigners.
Firstly, I do aknowledge that there IS racism and discrimination against foreigners (especially people of dark skin color) in this country. However I cannot agree to the fact that so many foreign people participating in discussions about Finland claim that this is a country of nazi skin heads waiting to beat-up the next black man they see on the street or that the society as a whole (meaning public policy, health care, education) is somehow discriminatory. I understand very well that Finnish people are often extremely cold and reserved towards foreigners but I have heard countless of remarks from foreign refugees and students claiming that nowhere else in Europe have they been received as well as in Finland, with social welfare services covering all of there financial and medical needs, there children being offered the highest quality education, even studies in their own native language as well as studies in their respective religions. My sister is a teacher with many immigrant pupils in her class and she told me that the school system goes to great lengths in organizing the education of immigrant students. I know Africans and Asians who have been made to feel more than welcome in local Finnish churches and schools, making Finnish friends.
Yes, it is difficult for foreigners to find work here. There ARE employers reluctant to considering employing foreigners, whether due to reasons of prejudice, downright racism, or because the applicant doesn’t have the required knowledge of the Finnish language. BUT, why is it that I have black friends here, who speak the language fluently, and have NEVER had any problems finding work (and they have worked in many different fields)? It saddens me alot that so many in this country go to great lengths in helping refugees and other foreigners in need and I only find that this country is labeled completely racist. I once asked a group of Somalis who had been living in Finland for quite a while if they had experienced racism. They responded simply that 90% of Finnish people are good and 10% are racist. I am certain that WHEREVER you go especially in Europe you WILL find racism. Especially in eastern-European countries or countries not accustomed to foreigners. If a drunk on the street shouts offensive things to a black person, I am sure this happens in other countries as well.
Finnish people are generally very reserved and do not have a good knowledge of foreign languages/cultures, hence the difficult connection with foreigners. DOES EVERYTHING NEED TO BE ATTRIBUTED TO RACISM? Finns, especially elderly citizens do find it hard to accept anything that is new, different or revolutionary. This applies as well to native Finns trying to go against the flow.
I am sorry about the bad experiences foreigners have had in Finland but I believe things are changing. In the upcoming years we will be needing the effort of many foreigners in the labor market due to our aging population. I hope their arrival will continue to enrich this society.
Enrique
August 17, 2008
Hi Juha, many thanks for allowing us to hear your ideas. You make a valid point: racism is an issue in Finland but, as you correctly point out, not everything that happens to foreigners can be attributed to racism. I recommend that others to take time to read your comments on the matter.
As you mentioned, some Finns are suspicious of foreigners because they have had little contact with them. In my opinion, if Finland is going to take in foreign migrants, then it should do everything possible to make their stay worthwhile. If they can adapt and integrate into the Finnish way of life, or acquaint themselves thoroughly to it, it will only benefit Finland. We all lose if you create boundaries of exclusion around different groups.
I don’t think that anyone can claim that Finland is 100% racist. Racism exists everywhere — take a look at the “racial cleaning” that went on in the Balkans not too long ago. There are many good people in Finland who are interested in helping foreigners lead meaningful lives in Finland. Even so, I think there needs to be more debate on the problems so we can move ahead. As you know, it is education.
I’m certain that many of us would be interested in hearing from your point of view the foreigners who succeeded in Finland.
Tiwaz
August 18, 2008
But you have to understand, if these students undermine the foundation of finnish society…
We lose.
This country and people are just too small to survive if we do not hang on to our culture and society. We need those to exist. Without them, we are not finns. I don’t know what we would be, but not finns.
But there is, and you cannot deny it, trend amongst immigrants and foreigners expecting finns and Finland to appease them and their wants. That is just flat out wrong.
What immigrants should do, is study finnish culture and learn to behave according to it. You do not have to become carbon copy of finn. But your life will be far less problematic if you speak language and know how not to behave improperly in finnish cultural context.
Else you WILL be unemployed and looked down upon. Not because you are foreigner, but because you are rude and do not behave properly.
Because it is finnish definition of those that matters, not yours. We will look you through finnish cultural norms. Fill them, it’s ok. Do not fill them and you are rude and improperly behaving regardless of your origin.
While YOU people may assume that you behave and speak just fine. Trust me, you are continuously giving out “wrong” signals. You just lack the eye and ear to notice.
I had swedish teacher once, whom I immediately noticed to speak “wrong”. She was indeed finnish by birth (middle aged lady) but originated from swedish speaking area. But it was still there.
Same thing with nonverbal stuff. Finnish body language tends to be minimal. We may be bit more perceptive towards such things due to this. And your body language will for decades betray you.
Neither really matters, as long as you do not do anything which is against proper conduct. It is just your exotic spice. You will not be treated, overall, much differently than finns. We just prefer to be left alone in very small but tight (quality over quantity) groups of friends. Get into one, and you can pat yourself in the back. Just do not try to bring your cultural norms and expect them to work in Finland.
Integration should not be if. It has to be must.
Enrique
August 18, 2008
Two important matters: 1) Finnish culture and the Finns are NOT in danger of disappearing because more foreigners are moving to the country;
2) The key matter is to learn to live side by side and respect each others cultural diversity.
3) If you strongly believe that integration is a must, how to you carry out such a policy? What laws must be changed? Can you impose such norms on Finns? Why not?
Tiwaz
August 18, 2008
1) Not yet. If we do permit all this multicultural rubbish it will. UK already shows serious signs of cultural erosion. Native brits have expressed feeling of starting to feel like being foreigners in their own country. And they have more people than Finns have!
2) No. It is about immigrants learning to behave like you behave in country where you move. It is unacceptable to presume that natives have to appease immigrants. If you cannot live in country which is not like your native country, I can honestly recommend not moving.
3) Integration to finnish society is must. If you are not working with society, you are working against society. There is very little room for troublemakers.
One thing that comes to my mind is, depending on how EU legislation permits it, making for example stuff like unemployment benefits and/or residence permits dependant on progression in language skills.
Language is product of culture, thus it can act at least as starting point to integration. Forcing integration is not going to work, but making life without integration even more difficult (as distasteful as I find it) may give motivation to immigrants.
I really wish such measures would not be necessary, but reality is that immigrants appear to be far too unwilling to integrate.
And norms are already imposed on Finns. When Finn does behave improperly, they do it knowingly. And are looked down by their countrymen as troublemakers and fools.
Enrique
August 18, 2008
Tiwaz, that is your opinion. I haven’t seen any empirical studies that show that British society is deteriorating as you mention. One of the inalienable aspects of British culture is that is multicultural through the colonial period. Certainly there are some Brits who may feel threatened by the foreigners that live in the country. Even so, I would claim that is a minority.
Again, you mention that integration is not a choice but an obligation. The examples you mention about language tests and the like have been proposed. I believe that they will be unsuccessful. The Russians tried to do it to Finland in the Russification period and look what happened. Russia’s big mistake was that it forced Finns to become more Russified. This led to a lot of strife and bloodshed.
In World War 2, and a very extreme example, was the Nazi regime and their racial policy. The thinking at the time was that Aryans were put into a second “racial” category because of groups like the Jews, Roma and others. Look at all the bloodshed and murder that took place back then through concentration camps. Take a look at a more tragic recent example such as the Balkans. No, I don’t think you can impose cultural norms on others unless you want to create friction.
I mentioned before in many posts that foreigners should be inspired to integrate into a culture. This should be the norm in Finland because it is a society based on equality for all and has strong institutions that uphold such norms. We should not succumb to the ways of autocratic countries such as the Sudan or any other that force people to leave their culture. This is very especially to do, if we look at the first generation.
Finland is in my opinion a good society with values that other autocratic countries should emulate. This should not apply to only to Finns, but all people who live leagally in the country.
I understand your fears, but I think they are exaggerated.
Tiwaz
August 19, 2008
Ah, but Russia tried to russify people and society which were existing and were estabilished. That is totally different from telling immigrants to learn to behave properly and speak language.
Because, when foreigners in Finland behave as if they are in their native country, they cause friction. This is stuff that causes that violence you mention. You are trying to separate yourselves from society. You refuse to integrate.
Basically, Finn sees you…. Immigrant, who came to this country voluntarily. Refuse to respect our culture and language. For Finn, it is very basic idea of courtesy to show respect to culture and ways of country or house you visit.
Some asshats of course fail to do so. The infamous drunk finns, who are shame for whole country when abroad. But overall it is found polite to behave properly in local sense of proper.
Cultural norms and traditions are there because they are needed. They give everyone equal ground where they know how to behave. That you do not disturb others and so forth. Their purpose is to ensure as fluent functionality of society as possible.
Everyone going against these norms, are causing problems.
Thus, immigrants have to learn that when in Rome, behave like romans. Everything else is unacceptable.
It is even benefit of immigrants themselves. We see lots of moaning that people have no jobs. Well whoop-de-doo!
In case you people have not figured out, you have to work with FINNS. Majority of your customers are FINNS.
What kind of employer would be so bloody stupid that they would hire rude person who cannot even speak to customers and/or colleagues in their preferred language?
Jobs where language is not issue are rare. And often even if it is not impossible problem it is for example security issue. People working in construction are worried of security risks where two people who have to work together (say guy operating crane and one helping him) have communications issues.
This far no serious accidents (that we know of) have not taken place. But risk is higher.
Or if you have to sit in customer contact. Would you hire worker who may risk you losing customers because one immigrant you hired has no idea on proper behavior or cannot communicate with client?
DeTant Blomhat
August 20, 2008
- Again, you mention that integration is not a choice but an obligation. The examples you mention about language tests and the like have been proposed. I believe that they will be unsuccessful. The Russians tried to do it to Finland in the Russification period and look what happened. Russia’s big mistake was that it forced Finns to become more Russified. This led to a lot of strife and bloodshed.
Again, you miss the point. the Russians invaded us. We’re not invading the immigrants – its their own choice to come here. They are not brought here by violence chained in slave ships. They voluntarily board on an airplane.
And the UK is prime example of “white flight” – and the UK people move to Finland for that reason. It takes them a little while to figure out while they live in Bendoveristan where the foreigners rule, in Finland they are the foreigners and the natives still rule. Thats why they whine as they are ashamed of their country but we are not.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/6631541.stm
In Finland there is only space for one kinds of towns and villages – full of “Finnish residents” and not “white ethnic Finns” and “immigrant foreigners”… its an attitude question if you want to be a Finn or not.
Enrique
August 20, 2008
Hey DeTant, the war ended in 1944. You see the world through black and white, immigrant versus non-immigrant. Then you should form a movement in Finland to ensure that no foreigners move to the country. What do you think? How many Brits have moved to Finland fleeing from the “foreign menace?”
Linda
August 24, 2008
DeTant Blomhat : you suffer from a severe case of xenophobia – you need help.
I can not comprehend how bloggers on this site even bother to respond to a hatemonger, disrespectful, unconstructive individual like you.
Enrique
August 24, 2008
Hi Linda, nice to have you on board. Why bother with DeTant? To show how some people in Finland think. It would be great to hear from people as yourself and explain to them that matters are not the way they see them. More foreigners must speak out!
Linda
August 28, 2008
Hi Enrique, you are correct indeed,
I have lived in Finland for umpteen years and I have to say that racism is wide spread. Racism in Finland manifests itself through job discrimination, social exclusion and what not.
Employers blame it on language impediment – that most foreigners don’t speak finnish. But this claim is not entirely true. I have met a lot of foreigners that have educated themselves in Finland, speak the language fluently, have an academic degree but are still unemployed. Some of them have never managed to even secure an interview just because their names are sound peculiar. Even if you get a job your chances of getting promoted is next to nill. The employer thinks that he/she is doing you a favour just because he/ hired you.
I would also like to add that all foreigners are not refugees, some of us come here to study and end up getting married and build a family here.
Unfortunately, we are here to stay because our family is here. Therefore, Things have to change in Finland and I strongly beleive it is up to us to outline our grievances bargain collectively for our rights.
Enrique
August 28, 2008
Hi Linda, you are absolutely right! A person who cares about the society he lives in does not fear to speak out when there are injustices. It is not only a right, but we must do so for our children and our grandchildren. About language, I believe it is only an excuse in some cases used to exclude people. After they learn the language adequately, I am certain they will come up with some other excuse. It only suffices to look at unemployment to see that the foreign community in Finland is not well integrated. There are many factors for this. When you ask people who should know why, they usually fall short of giving an appropriate answer like discrimination or that the labor market system in Finland really sucks. How do you explain many years of high growth versus other EU countries and there is still high unemployment in Finland? It is because labor markets are inflexible and inefficient.
Finland would be a pretty could society if it could overcome these deficiencies. Things will change but we have to speak out. It is the only way.
Fiona
September 5, 2008
I am an immigrant. Sometimes I feel so frustrated in Finland that I just wanted to ‘give it back to the society’. Hence the crime. People like me (hypothetically) acting out of frustration. If the mentality here is that no foreigners are good and only a tiny fraction of people like Juha, the social worker, understands and/or appreciates diversity it doesn’t help much because the general society isn’t open=minded. I would even call racist.
If a person like Juha comes to ask me how do I like it in Finland, I wouldn’t want to hurt his feelings. A guy who works so hard for us. What do you expect me to say? that I am so frustrated that I can leave this second to another place where I feel more comfortable?
I would reverse those numbers. 95% prejudiced and 4% nonchalant, 0.5% don’t care, 0.001% welcoming (and the rest 0.499% lost in statistics).
Good welfare system is like a double-edged sword for immigrants. We are taken care of but we are also blamed for using them. And so you have to be ever-thankful that you are here, Finland. Because you are given shelter and food, now you can take this mental abuse in the form of institutionalized racism.
Markus
September 6, 2008
Huh? I’m a bit surprised how many people think Finns are racists. Guess the majority has to be right…I don’t think I am a racist, not that I would have much chance to be. I live in Middle-Finland, there are pretty much zero black people in here. Which is a shame, a tad more cultural diversity would be nice.
We need more immigrants =) But they all are going to Sweden…
What irritates me, is that some say that racism is taught as schools, if you go flaunting that opinion, don’t complain if people dislike you! It’s not. Feel free to give examples.
Enrique
September 6, 2008
Hi Markus, glad you could drop by and share your thoughts. I think it was one person who made that comment. Instead of pointing out how different we are, we should do the opposite: find things that unite us.
I used to live in Mikkeli and I know what you mean. Cultural diversity is the spice of societies.
ale
September 8, 2008
Hello all,
I was just browsing the internet and found this most interesting discussion.
I lived in Finland around three years, spoke quite well the language, had a good job at a laboratory as a technician, still, never got used to the narrow minded mentalily.
I left many years ago, and as I read your comments I am so glad I did. After Finland, and after divorcing, I lived in Canada and Spain, previously I lived in the US, I can tell you I never encountered a society even close as racist as the finnish one, full or prejudices and stupidities. When the friends I left behind tell me it is still the same or even worse since there are many more foreigners, I had my doubts, but no, I confirm through your comments this has not changed.
What can I tell you, as I said, I am glad that the rest of world is so different!! and glad I did not spent so menay years there
Enrique
September 8, 2008
Sorry to hear that your experience was not pleasant. There are a lot of challenges in Finland with respect to discrimination but I believe that things will change in the end. It is a country that is opening up rather fast but does not have a focused idea what it means. Or is it that Finland expects to bring in foreign labor and then ask them to leave? One of the biggest questions or pitfalls, in my opinion, is that some Finns find diversity as a threat to their culture when, in essence, it is something that enriches it.
Tiwaz
September 9, 2008
How does destruction of cultural unity enrich it?
You still have failed to present multicultural society which is stable, united, peaceful and/or not build on destruction of native culture.
Go on. Present one to me. You can’t.
It appears to me that most immigrant issues come from one source, refusal to learn Finnish culture. Instead trying to judge Finnish society based on values of other society with different structure, history and ways.
Of course Finnish society which is very introvert and respects privacy will feel racist or rude to someone who is used to society where person who you just met claims you to be his/her best friend ever.
I find such societies dishonest and annoying, as you are not given peace and you can never rely on word of another person even little.
Enrique
September 9, 2008
Here isn’t one, but a batch: Canada, Argentina, London, Spain, Germany, United States…
–I find such societies dishonest and annoying, as you are not given peace and you can never rely on word of another person even little.
Stop generalizing about cultures and people. There are extroverted and introverted Finns. There are people of all types. I told you that there is no such thing as national character, except for “national stereotypes.”
DeTant Blomhat
September 15, 2008
Stop whining about Finnish culture and people. Here is a quote from some nice fellow in Canada.
“canada is a country full of spitefull racist people, despite racism non white immigrant people still continue to live their and on account of the reason they’d be embarrased they simply do not unveil what it really is to their countrymen back home, like my self! whilst living in canada for 5 yrs and becoming a citizen i’ve seen that the english canadians r truly racist! esp the ones of toronto. (srry 4 my language but im just as pissed as u nice people r) these c*******g, dumbasses r totally ignorant! they think immigrants r stupid people from jungles! these blcokheaded nitwits also think we just walk in their “homeland” with out any permission of government and they dont even realize that they r the ones who stole this damn land god damn it!!! f* f* f*! toronto is shittingly horrible! but inspite of the fact that people of toronto r real dull wits the french canadians r how ever much less racist. as i’ve been in quebec(not montreal) all the white boys and girls were rather more like me and had manners and courtesy. unlike the low-lifed scums and wastes of england(namely the english canadians) in toronto now a days its impossible to even walk around the streets! otherwise well no they aint gona say racist things but their attitude and behaviour clearly states that they r indeed but racist (effective words). the ttc bus drivers r so rude damn it mother f*! one time when i was 12 one n**** bus driver yelled at me and humiliated me! now i understand the whites treat these african beasts like trash but tat dont give em the rights to f* with me. now i swear to my self! wehn im back to canada, if a single ttc bus driver wheather n**** or white i swear, if they behave in a f* way with me!”
Yes, go read more http://www.notcanada.com/forum/
DeTant Blomhat
September 15, 2008
Enrique: explain exactly how in this example from Denmark diversity enriches the Greenlanders culture instead of destroying it?
stiften.dk/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080705/AAS/457841073/1002
theres a translation found here
canadianimmigrationreform.blogspot.com/search/label/racism
DeTant Blomhat
September 15, 2008
- I can tell you I never encountered a society even close as racist as the finnish one, full or prejudices and stupidities.
I can tell you I never encountered a person even close as whining as a foreign one, full or prejudices and stupidities.
What do these two statements sound like? Who is the narrow minded one?
Enrique
September 15, 2008
–Stop whining about Finnish culture and people. Here is a quote from some nice fellow in Canada.
So, should we behave the same way. Hey, DeTant, if you lived in the early part of the last century, you would go up to Mannerheim and the Jaggers and say: Stop your whining. Nothing will change.
Greenlanders? Oy vei! You really pick the odd ones. I’m talking about big countries with big urban buildings.
–What do these two statements sound like? Who is the narrow minded one?
Putting words in my mouth? I never said that. You did.
DeTant Blomhat
September 15, 2008
- So, should we behave the same way.
No, I am just proving that your model country of Canada is more racist than Finland.
- I’m talking about big countries with big urban buildings.
Unless you haven’t noticed Finland is a small country. And did you read the article? Or doesn’t it fit into your Finland-destruction agenda?
–What do these two statements sound like? Who is the narrow minded one?
Putting words in my mouth? I never said that. You did.
No I didn’t – the whiny labrat whose ego got shattered when a Finnish woman dumped him was the one said so. Again the only reason to whine for racism is the persons own shortcomings.
Enrique
September 15, 2008
No I didn’t – the whiny labrat whose ego got shattered when a Finnish woman dumped him was the one said so. Again the only reason to whine for racism is the persons own shortcomings.
Well, you can sweep the problem under the rug that way if you please.
paddy
September 16, 2008
I had to writ this little experience I hd a few weeks ago when viewing a new houe but first: You would imagine growing up in Ireland during the religious/political divide in the late 60’s t0 the 90’s would give you some ides of racism. To add to that I was brought up by my mother a catholic and my father a protestant who’s parents were hard core Scots Northern Ireland.
I came to live in Finland ten years ago. I had been on holiday a couple of times and found the people to be polite and what I thought shy of foreigners. On interaction – nine times out of ten – their face would turn red as they struggled to (speak English) be of assistance. The Finns were – to put it in a word – tolerant.
Now with experience I see how I mistook tolerance for (just plain old) ignoring, and their shyness for wanting to get away (as fast as they can) from you. Their assistance to do what is their duty and make a profit if possible.
The Finns are determined to stay in their own little culture, and if you care to join in nobody will go out of their way to push you out. You’ll just be ignored.
I thought it was my imagination at first or maybe me and my inadequacies, but after a while I saw a definite pattern. It’s not organized, as you say it is unspoken inherent in some insidious way. But you do here it spoken and I think more so than I heard ten years ago or the longer you stick around.
We moved house last week. Some weeks ago when we came to look at the house for the first time the woman turned to us in the middle of the tour and said: “I had a ((she used the term) mustalainen perhe (black people) family viewing the house just before you…………..
((((Romany have been in Finland since the 16th. Century. They didn’t just arrive there yesterday))))
……..I’m not racist or anything (she smiled at me knowing I was Irish) but when I saw them coming I said: there goes the neighborhood.
It hit me God there it is/was (and I wanted to in some weird way thank her) right out in the open. It was refreshing in the sense that you can confront that where as you can’t confront silence. There are no signs: no n***s or Irish need apply. You know from the countless times you’ve been turned away or offered what most wont do.
DeTant Blomhat
September 16, 2008
- Well, you can sweep the problem under the rug that way if you please.
There is no “problem”.
DeTant Blomhat
September 16, 2008
Paddy congratulations on the new house. Hopefully some of your traveling compatriots come along selling paving so you can then come back to extrapolate on your hypocricy.
Enrique
September 16, 2008
OK, there is no “problem.” Does that make you feel better? Some Finns are above racism, it’s the way they express themselves. Sorry for not understanding.
“Extrapolate on your hypocrisy.” I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. I think I will do the former.
Enrique
September 16, 2008
Hi Paddy, good to hear from you. Why did she have to mention that? What did she want to imply? Hurry up and take it, or the neighborhood is going downhill? The discrimination without the sin you are talking about works very effectively. Some people smile at you and do not hire you, won’t allow you to rent an apartment because you are of this or that background… Some of these Finns resemble a person who told me about how Colombians murder people: Before killing you, they smile cordially. Some Colombians are very formal. In the school where my son went, kids used to call each other by their surnames.
Congratulations on your new home.
DeTant Blomhat
September 16, 2008
- I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. I think I will do the former.
Ask Paddy about Irish Travellers. And how much people wish them to come live next door.
DeTant Blomhat
September 16, 2008
Oh, and *who* are the racists? And what is the “real problem”?
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Racism+one+of+many+problems+in+Karhuvuori+district+of+Kotka/1135221426704
paddy
September 16, 2008
Thanks man.
we’re in and putting the final touch to each and everything.
DeTant, I lived with travellers for about two years when my first daughter Dara was born. Some of the finist people you could/would ever meet, and some very dangerous bastards just like in every level of society.
I’m glad I had the experience, and not stupid to say everyone would love it; should do it, and so on. Life is a dangerous road on which you learn to be thankful for the people you have around you.
DeTant Blomhat
September 16, 2008
So paddy- you agree – there can be a real estate agent in Ireland stating: there is no travellers in the neighbourhood”
Considering my nan was a Finnish a gyppo, I find Enrique mighty white.
JL
September 17, 2008
Damn Finns! I can’t be bothered to read through this enormous thread, but reading your checklist I realised that I’ve been subjected to horrible racism by Finns! Especially #1, #2, #3, #6, and #7 are or have at times been very true for me. The fact that I’m an ethnic Finn myself underscores the viciousness of the Finns: they’re racist even towards their own kind.
JL
September 17, 2008
David, look around Finland and see if you will find even a single elected ethnic minority in the local councils. Though some political parties like SDP have constantly window dressed their candidates list to include few Somalians, but the average racist finnish voter will rather vote for his dog rather than vote for a foriegner.
Excluding the Swedish-speakers (who are politically vastly overrepresented), not more than a couple percent of people living in Finland belong to ethnic minorities. Even fewer are “visible minorities”. Based on this statistic, you’d expect no more than one in fifty or one in a hundred politicians to be from minority ethnic backgrounds, provided that the proportion of people with the kind of socio-economic background where politicians typically come from is similar in minorities as it is in the native population (and it isn’t).
Still, there are some minority politicians. For example, in the small rural town where I grew up, one half-black guy is a fixture in local politics, representing the SDP. I’m sure there are others like him around the country. In the parliament the only (non-Swedofinn) minority politicians that I can think of are Ben Zyskowicz, who is Jewish, and Janne Seurujärvi, who is a Sami, both from Kokoomus. There might be some others, and some have mixed backgrounds (Maria Guzenina is half-Russian, I think). Elisabeth Nauclér, the Åland representative in parliament, is in fact an immigrant from Sweden. Timo Soini, the popular leader of the True Finns party, is a Catholic, which is mighty exotic in Finland.
In any case, none of these people make a point of their more exotic backgrounds, and are all treated as Finns precisely because they refuse to be “ethnic politicians”. If someone with an immigrant background is qualified, he or she will have no problem getting elected to a political office in Finland.
Alat Katin
September 24, 2008
Hello all. I just stumbled upon this page. I am thinking of going to medical school in Finland near Helsinki in the english medical programme. I am originally from Egypt and speak english but not the native Finnish language. I also dress akin to the bedouin style with traditional headdress and robe. I was very excited to be able to study in Helsinki but now am having thoughts against it after reading this page. Medical programme itself is very tough but if I have to do it under difficult circumstances compounded with discrimination then I may not fare well. Can someone, both Finnish and non-Finnish in Finland give me his input on the matter? Best wishes from Alat.
Enrique
September 24, 2008
Hi Alat, and welcome to Mirgrant Tales. Let’s wait for some comments. In the meantime, why don’t you ask the university where you are going to study if you will have any problems because of your dress and cultural background. It would be a fair question to them.
There are also some Arab associations in Finland: http://www.rabita.fi and http://www.caisa.fi/.
This could be a good start.
Alat Katin
September 24, 2008
Hello Enrique. Thank you for the links. I am unable to ask the university as that would be not a good way to establish relations at a potential place of attendance. Yes, honest comments would be welcome, especially from Finns and non Finns alike. If a bad idea then I would rather know early than attempt a big move which could be disasterous. Points to keep in mind are
A. I don’t speak anything other than English and native tongue.
B. I wear traditional middleeast dress.
C. I do not know anyone in Finland other than the correspondence persons at the school.
Mark Hill
September 29, 2008
Embo and others make a very good point, that not all bad experiences can or should be attributed to racism. Surely it does not feel good to a person when they are being treated rudely, etc. but in many cases attributing these things to racism is perhaps overly imaginative.
I was in Finland last summer for an extended vacation. Now it should be understood that my family originally is from Finland, so I more or less look like any other Finn. But by most definitions, I am a foreigner when in Finland, even to some of my relatives (many of whom I cannot speak with as I do not speak Finnish).
While in Helsinki, and even more so in smaller towns, I often noticed Finns behaving in a rather “reserved” manner. I learned quickly that if you smile at a stranger they will most likely think you are very strange.This is very different to where I am from, southern Ontario Canada. “Small talk” is not only uncommon, but according to my cousin, distrusted.
My point here, is that there were many examples of situations were if I were a foreign “looking” person, I might imagine some sort of racism or discrimination going on. Mind you, I have no experience of being called names, etc. but what I mean here is the sort of “silent” discrimination that many here have mentioned. But I know that since I look Finnish, and because I spoke with very few people (and thus not many people would have known that I dont speak the language) I know that it could not have been racism, unless racists are all psychic! It is simply a fact that Finns can seem very reserved, and even cold on the surface, and needing some time to warm up to new people.
It is also true that in spite of their sometimes less than dashing outwards demeanor, Finnish people can be, and often are very warm and friendly people. For example, I learned to appreciate their lack of small talk and superficial niceities (and perhaps some other people would have a much harder time with this). When you come from a place where people are generally more social and outgoing, it can seem off-putting at first, but you learn quickly that this is just the way they are.
Surely there are racists in Finland, and I even would imagine that in a place which has been so homogenous for so long, that it is a problem. I just don’t think it is fair to exagerrate it by saying things like that not getting a job means you are a victim of racism. The list at the top of this page is ridiculous in most respects. I personally, here at home have met maybe a couple of foreign born people who seem to think that until people are kissing their asses, then surely they must be racists. Like when I was younger, a neighbourhood kid used to climb our fence, and my father would yell at him to get off. One day he went to the child’s mother and complained to his mother that he was cutting through our yard, and she said that he was just racist and didn’t like black people, which is certainly not true. I know from my cousins again that it is difficult even for Finns to get jobs – the fact that the unemployment rate is so much higher among immigrants has more to do with language skills than xenophobia, unlike in many other places Finns don’t feel the need to be so politically correct as to hire a foreigner over a better qualified Finn so as to appear not racist.
And one last point – the main people I did speak with in Finland were other foreigners at the language classes I was attending (most of them not white). From them, many whom had been there for a number of years, I heard the typical complaints about living in a different country,(difficulties at the grocery store, getting lost in the city, etc.) but no complaints that I remember about being treated badly because of their race. I did hear many comments about what I said before, about the “usual” reserved Finnish demeanor, but nobody I spoke with seemed to feel they were being treated differently from anyone else.
Mark Hill
September 29, 2008
I would also like to add another observation:
in may places ( and I personally believe especially here where I am from ) many people who are not racist at all will still in some situations go out of their way to specifically appear “not racist”, partly because maybe they are not sure how to behave around foreigners, partly out of fear of offending someone, and also partly because maybe they have had a racist thought or something like that and they feel they can make amends in a way. While personally I think it is pretty transparent, possibly insincere, and at worst condescending, I have caught myself at times doing the same thing. (in the example of the neighbourhood kid whom I mentioned earlier, many people unlike my father would not have complained, for fear of being mispercieved as racist). Many other people though, like my father, would resent and/or dismiss such accusations and complain anyhow.
To most Finns, who are largely unfamiliar, and to an extent even distrusting of such small talks and “superficialities”, who strongly value honesty even to the point of bluntness, such a way of behaviour would seem very strange. Again I am not denying that there is racism in Finland, and I am sorry that I have not said before that many of the stories I have read here seem quite sad and dissapointing. What I am saying though, is in some situations, should one ask “Am I being treated badly (in a racist way) or am I I just not being treated “specially”? Am I being ignored truly because of the colour of my skin, or am I just being ignored?
Mark Hill
September 29, 2008
like if I am sitting on a bus, and noone, after the bus is almost full comes and sits next to me: I personally would know that it can’t be racism because no Finn on that bus would be able to tell I am a foreigner. But if I were a person of darker skin, I might think to myself that maybe that’s why noone wants to sit next to me. And perhaps that is the reason, but then again maybe it isn’t.
Enrique
September 29, 2008
Hi Mark, welcome to Migrant Tales and sharing your views with us. You make some interesting points but I think you would have to be a black, Muslim or somebody very different looking in order to feel what it is like being an outsider in Finland. The point you make about Finns being blunt is very interesting as well as some Finns going out of their way to appear “not racist.”
But I think it boils down to very essential facts: can I make a living in Finland? First you should ask why would you want to stay in a country that does not even offer a future. But if you have to stay in Finland and cannot find work, it is a big problem. If it is due to discrimination it is even a bigger problem. And with 20% unemployment on average among foreigners there is a very, very big problem that nobody is really addressing. We should thank our politicians and the social welfare state for that.
Alat Katin
September 29, 2008
Hello. Can anyone recommend whether or not to come to Finland to study medicine. My previous posting is here @
http://nemoo.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/are-you-a-racist-in-finland/#comment-3017
KR
October 1, 2008
I Love Finland and Finnish People. I am an American exchange student with Hispanic descent. I do get stared at- I guess people haven’t really seen to much of a young girsl with dark black hair and darker skin. SO WHAT? I just smile. What did you people think when you would immigrate to another country- that it would be easy? You must adapt. Discrimination can be fought- through education and positive interaction. It is unfair to say such things about the average Finn, because they are so polite. As far as the work situation, you need to look at the political structure and take a wild guess as to why it’s so hard for you to get a decent job! Forums like these are useless and only provide for bickering and stereotypes. Positive intercultural communication is the key. Really, what do you expect?
Enrique
October 1, 2008
Hi KR, welcome to Migrant Tales and thank you for your views. I disagree that this blog only is a forum for bickering and stereotypes. On the contrary, it is a good forum to state your case. Like anything, healthy debate is always positive to get to know what each group is thinking. Without it we are still pretty much in the dark.
Probably the big difference between the US and Europe is that the former had a civil rights movement. I wonder what some people thought when blacks started to march in cities such as Montgomery? See how many positive things came out of that and other marches. People did not remain quiet but preferred to bring forth their ideas and differences. Thank God that they had the courage to do it.
Alian from Middle East
October 5, 2008
Hi:
I am an Iranian man 43, I arrived in Finland in Dec. 1994. I applied for asylum right away. I received it after 27 months.
- I received a B.Sc degree in computer engineering in May 1999.
- I received a M.Sc. in Telecommunication from Helsinki University of Technology in 2005
- I started working in a decent, official job, as a C programmer in 1997 before even I get a residence permit.
- I have worked 5 years for Nokia
- I have worked 3 years for HUT
- I applied for citizenship in 2001
- I received a negative answer in 2005. The reason was that I am a threat against Finland security and public order.
I appealed against this decision. I won the decision in administrative court. My argue was that you should provide a reason why I am threat. No body should be guilty without a reason. Finland’s security services and the migration service take the case to supreme court and threatened the supreme court and the system that they will not show any evidence because I am too dangerous to know the reason. I asked that they show their reason to Supreme court and Finnish authorities. They did not, because there is none! The court voted in their favour and ruled that SUPO (Finnish Security Service) does not have to provide any reasons! So much for an independent judiciary system!
- I lost my Job in a Finnish company after 2 weeks because of the SUPO,s decision about me. That was August 2006.
- I asked the Finnish authority including Mrs. President Halonen that show me one simple reason, why I am a threat and I live your country voluntarily. They did not!
- I moved to Sweden in 2007
- I found a job now in Sweden as an IT consultant with lot more salary in Stockholm and lot more fun
- I am happy now here. But Finland was like a nightmare for me.
So this was my experience from Finland!
Cheers
Enrique
October 5, 2008
I am really saddened by this. It is action like this that really gives Finnish authorities a bad name. I hope that more people as yourself speak out and tell their experiences. Some already have. Thank you. I hope you have a lot of luck in Sweden. Was your case ever in the media?
Alian from Middle East
October 5, 2008
Dear Enrique:
Thank you for your sense of understanding.
My case was published in Helsinki Sanomat (without my name), the biggest paper in Finland. However it was the story said by SUPO. I contacted the Helsinki Sanomat and demanded to hear our side of story. I received no answer. Then I want personally to meet the person who wrote the article. The receptionist called the guy and the guy said that he is on holiday and wont back for some time. Coincidently in 2 minutes the receptionist saw his collogue and asked about him. The collogue said that he is back in 10 minutes and he is not in holiday. I contacted to the person’s boss and some other people in Helsinki Sanomat and mentioned the acts and laws regarding publishing such an article. According to the law, they should also publish my side of story. I never received an answer!
The followings are some links to the case in HS;
- Courts say immigration officials give too much weight to statements by Security Police http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Courts+say+immigration+officials+give+too+much+weight+to+statements+by+Security+Police/1135225456158
- Security Police threaten to stop giving statements on foreigners
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Security+Police+threaten+to+stop+giving+statements+on+foreigners/1135227258317
So, I would say that there is no independent press and judiciary system in Finland as far as concerning to the foreigners.
Cheers
Enrique
October 6, 2008
In all fairness, a good story hears both sides of the argument. It shows that there is little competition in Finland among newspapers. There is only one and its word is that of the Gods. You should have tried other media that could have listened to your side of the argument. Self-censorship is one of the biggest ills of society. It is something that inflicts many newspapers. This is very detrimental because it means that the real story never gets out there. It is always a view heavily leaning towards what officials want to say. Some of the stories in HS on racism have the same format: case and then a nice ending like “racism is not a problem.” With stories like that the problem never gets addressed because it is never considered a problem. It is like all the government agencies and labor offices that deal with foreigners. They are mostly Finns! How is a Finn going to understand what a foreigner is going through? It is like sending a social worker white person from Alabama to give advice to poor blacks in Harlem.
shopnil
October 28, 2008
finland is the most racist country in the world! i am living in this country for more then 6 years! people r so different here then any other country! i do speak finnish but not that well! even cleaning job is difficult to find here! if foreigners use a trick then they will succed here! make a big family like 6-7 kids! and just take social! its the best way in finland! 99% finns r racist believe me!
Citizen
November 2, 2008
Shopril, you just told the reason WHY finnish people seem to be racist: they are fed up with taxes that are used for social expenses caused by foreigners not willing to accommodate and obey laws.
If you don’t feel at home in Finland, why do you stay there? Why did you come? Living on wellfare? Yes!
Maba
November 2, 2008
“99% finns r racist believe me!”
And you are not, making a comment like that? Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting. There is no another word to describe a comment like that.
As a Finn I find this blog insulting. Racism, stereotypes and generalization against finnish people.
The whole 10 point list is ridiculous. Like someone already said those things are quite normal also for the white heterosexual Finnish male so it’s really not usually about racism but culture.
For example unemployment. You don’t have any idea how hard it is for a Finn to get a decent job with a BBA. Supermarkets are filled with cashiers with a BBA degree. So 20%? There are A LOT of refugees from the development countries with no education, no language skills, some can’t even read. How could they compete in a (too) highly competative modern economy? It’s freaking hard for a Finn, too! And we speak Finnish, which is a requiment for most of the jobs. It’s even more difficult for someone not speaking Finnish fluently. But it is seldom because of racism. It’s racist to just assume it’s always, or almost always, because of racism.
I’m not surprised about number 11: “I get attacked by comments in my blog for speaking out against racism.”. I think you “get attacked” because of your racism againsts the Finns. I feel personally insulted because of your generalizing claims. You seem to just spew hatred in a disguise. Oh, the irony!
Are you behaving that way in a “real life” too? Insulting people with generalized claims? Calling them names when their culture is different than yours, and because they don’t change their traditional ways just to humour you?
I wonder, why you have such a hard time…
Nikki
November 2, 2008
I dont like to use word (racism) but Finland does have a major problem towards foreigners, ive been living in Finland for 8 years, i speak fluent finnish but no offence to people who said thats its all about language difference thats not true, even knowing finnish wont save you from insults. I never insulted native finn or been rude etc, i always tryed to be nice and polite and what i got in return was always a spit to my face. Unemplyement for foregneirs shouldnt be a surprise anymore, they will rather take low educated finn to work than high degree foreigner to work, going to few intervies over here i realised that as foreigner i was completly ignored, prefect example was when i was having interview with 4 other people who were finns, the person who was asking us question simply didnt ask me or when asking hardly listened what i replyed. And i was left to wonder what did i personally do wrong to this country?? Neverless racism can be tolarated by adults, but what about kids? My brother is half finn, he speaks mainly finnish but in kindergarden he is treated like foreigner, seriously what can a child do bad to finns that he is becoming a target for racism? His teacher once told ” as he is not finnish”… So being half finnish, having finnish passport doesnt mean anything over here. This all doesnt make me racist or angry towards finns but it makes me sad, sad for people who are mostly well educated and sivilized but still they ruin all that by racism. Neverless not in far future i think foreigners will start major run from Finland and finns might be happy but should think about their reputation becouse for example all foreigner friends i know are living and dreaming for a chance to move away from Finland.
Alien from Middle east
November 2, 2008
Regarding the last comment before me;
In my view calling Finns racist is technically wrong and socially misleading. Finns are quite aware of their share in the world’s history and their achievement. On contrary they are quite modest aside from the times when they are addressing each other and making their history colourful. What makes Finland the way it is and very unpleasant to the most of the 3rd world countries immigrants, is the systematic, though hidden and very complex discrimination deployed by Finnish system so much that they are willing to circumvent their routines and regulations (like influencing their judiciary system from above) to restrict and eventually make the life harder for mostly the 3rd world countries immigrants. This complexity is so camouflaged which takes resources such as time, money, knowledge and courage to reveal it.
The system most useful weapon against those foreigners mostly had to migrate from critical places in the world is blocking the right to be naturalized. By taking this right from a immigrant who has lived many years in Finland, they paralyse the person to function as an ordinary person. Why and how? look at my story!
- I do not have a passport and I have never had. So no legal assistance and support provided to that person as a citizen.
- I cannot travel to so many countries. If I do and get into the trouble, there is no legal assistance from any where.
- If I get a better chance of job in some other country, taking that chance is as close as impossible because I am not an EU citizen. The employers are not willing to use any energy to convince their authorities to employ that person.
- Continuing studying will become limited. In my case they stopped me to peruse a PHD because I did not have Finnish nationality.
- The things like getting loan for buying a house some times get difficult as you need to be a Fin to raise the trust for the banks.
- The rest of your credits could also be affected by that.
- you cannot take part in major elections, though you have lived many years in that country. So your voice does not count on most important issues and your destiny.
- You cannot be a nominee for the same matter
- Being a Fin at least legally boosts your chance to get easier recruited.
- In any dispute between a Fin and immigrant, you are always guilty. Having the nationality could make the situation a bit better
-…
This list can go on and on, in one world you have less right than a dog belong to a Fin. So this is what makes Finland to most of the foreigners so unpleasant and disturbing. The true word which should be used is not racism, but the word is STATE DISCRIMINATION !!!!!!
You want to know why? Look at the fabric of power in Finland. I can see still the same people who were on the power 15 years ago. The same people but replaced from one place to other one. So the cluster of power is tried to be as closed as possible toward the people who actually have the will and knowledge and other qualities to take part in more administrative roles than being on the lower layer of the society.
So my immigrant friends, what makes you frustrated and depressed is a systematic pressure imposed by the STATE of Finland in the forms of which I mentioned some examples.
My advice to you is that don’t bring more children to this country. They will not be yours in 10 years. If you think that is smart, you better think twice. Leave this country if and when you can. Go to a place who appreciate your presence and invest on you better than Finland. To a place asking a foreigner why did you come to here is legally forbidden!
Mikko2
November 3, 2008
After reading Alian’s story and the newspaper articles, what could I say but tough luck indeed. The security police not saying what information it has or where it got it from is frustrating indeed.
Unfortunately, the security police is there for a reason, that is, to prevent terrorists entering the country. If the police has made a mistake about you, sounds like it is difficult to do anything about it. I would’t go as far as to say the police is rasistic, as, according to the newspaper article, they give a rather small number of negative statements. On other hand, if the police is correct about the statements, it would do to alter the statement just because the individual complains. But, they should hear your story at least.
Let’s ask, if *you* were in a deciding position, what kind of instructions would you give to the security staff? Would you ignore their recommendatios anyway in the end?
Shopnil: Your statement sounds rather rasistic in itself. The Finns also have difficulties finding a job, and it really doesn’t help if you cannot speak Finnish fluently.
Also, I wouldn’t recommend trying to live off the social security if you don’t want people to dislike you. Where then would you get your living, is indeed a good question. If the Finns and the culture are too different for you to get used to, it might be a better idea to try your luck in some other country, perhaps somewhere nearer to your own customs. If that is not an option, I would recommend just not giving up hope, or searching for a job.
DeTant: I think you have some valid points, but your presentation is way too agressive, offensive and probably also insulting. That kind of approach more often than not just makes understanding your point of view more difficult. I would also recommend avoiding cusswords or sarcasm, even when you are agitated.
Enrique: You sound like a sensible person, however seem to be rather depressed about perceived racism in Finland. About the initial questionnaire on the other hand, I find it rather funny. Indeed, this would classify majority of Finns rasistic of each other. As of question 6, I don’t think it’s a good attitude to pair up “special treatment” with racism either. If you’re a foreigner, it’s just expected you get treated a bit different. I got treated different every day when I did student exchange, and thought nothing of it. It did not darken my day the sligthest. I think KR shows a positive attitude in that sense.
However, there is real racism in Finland too, and that saddens me as well. But, I don’t think it’s that common as you say, and it is not widely accepted either. Criminals have gone to jail for rasistic behavior and companies have been fined for treating customers rasistically.
Anyway, it is true that the Finns’ attitudes toward foreigners could be better. Although the foreigners should be the ones to ultimately adapt, the Finns also should try to understand foreigners a bit better. As for foreigners, I’m sure that a positive attitude would help a lot, that is, trying hard and not giving up because of minor setbacks or occasional encounters with small-minded people.
Enrique
November 3, 2008
Hi Shopnil and Citizen, welcome to Migrant Tales and thank you for your comment. One interesting and recurring theme by Finns to foreigners who are unhappy with their situation in Finland is that “they should leave.” I think this is an inappropriate answer that has been used in other countries as well, like the US,America: love it or leave it. With high unemployment and discrimination on the lose in many cases, it is a very good matter that more people (Finns and foreigners) are brining this matter to light.
Mikko2
November 3, 2008
“Love it or leave it” is many times rather irritating advice, and often better left unsaid. However, it is a good advice when the reason why the foreigner is not able to live a happy life is that he cannot adapt to Finnish culture. It’s probably not possible to change the way people in the whole nation behave, during one lifetime.
In case of other reasons, like encountering real racism or the government conspiracy (first time I hear of this), telling people to leave is not constructive. In that case it’s indeed better to bring up the problem to be discussed.
About the kindergarten incident, being teased for being a foreigner is not very surprising. It doesn’t mean the teachers or the parents tell the kids to annoy foreigners. Children do not really need good reasons to tease others. Just having funny teeth, old bike or shirt of the wrong colour is enough. The teachers are not always able to interfere with this, although they do try. This is a real problem in school world (not just in Finland), and actually not a racism issue.
Nikki
November 3, 2008
“love or leave it” its harsh advice for foreigners who just simply have nowhere to go.Most of foreigners are normal people who just want to live in peace and enjoy the country no matter what color or nationality they got, its not like foreigners try to invade over finland and push finns out, or try to wipe out finnish traditions or religion etc. People just want to be exepted by who they are, but in most cases they just have to hide themselves and appear in the way finns would exept them.
As for small kids,ye getting teased is normal everywhere in the world, but when they grow they will start questioning the reasons, so are we suppose to say ” sorry dear cant help the fact that yr from other country”?? Thats how majority of kids start being racistic etc, it is never ending circle. Its easier to mentally attack kids than adults becouse they wont fight it much.
Personally when i get insulted but finn for being from other country i usually try to ignore it and think of it as just simple missunderstanding. But tell me how to behave when i stand with my friend near Metro station waiting for parents to join us for lunch and finnish men comes to us and asks how much he needs to pay us for sex, and he came only when he heared that we didnt talk in finnish. that was really insulting public humiliation, add to that cheap looks people started to give us and loud enough whispers ” f…g whores”. Yes indeed, foreigh girls are ALWAYS appear to be sluts dont they??? Or when some one started to yell at me and calling me names when he heared me speaking foreigh language, im sorry but i think sometimes finns do cross the line.
Alien from Middle east
November 3, 2008
I have seen both sides argument about Finland. Finns off course pro-Finland argue that under-developing countries immigrants come to Finland to live by welfare and not really willing to pay any price to integrate into the society. Lets consider this;
First of all Finland accepts refugees based on the 1951 convention in Geneva. The countries which have signed this convention are obliged to comply with that. So all the countries even under development countries have refugees, actually a large number of them. Finland’s share is too little and comparing with countries in Nordic area is not a very generous gesture.
It is also obvious that expecting from refugees to hold a M.S in their packet or being being a doctor is not fair. A refugee usually has left his country for some reasons. For example he/she might have been under persecution, jailed, tortured and so many other reasons which understanding them might be difficult to Finns. Therefore it is the duty of the country who accepts them after so many investigations and checking to help them to cop with the new environment. To tolerate them and to understand them and help them to integrate into the society. Having them just in the country in not enough. One needs to live, to work, to integrate into society and use his/her ability. Otherwise the person is mentally unbalanced.
I am myself a living example that not only helped but suppressed the most. I am a live example that not only encouraged, but my lawyer asked me why you become an engineer. She didn’t dare actually to ask why you did not become a pizza baker.
I would also like to know the opinion of my Finnish friends how they feel about 600, 000 Fins living in Sweden? A big number of them living on welfare. Without any mistake, here in Stockholm, whoever drunk and misfortune person that I saw was a Fin. Unfortunately not even one mistake. So you live in Europe without the problem that people have in Middle east or Africa, but about 12% of your population have left your country, just because of economic problem and at the same time nagging all the time that foreigners coming here for economic reasons !!!!
I will continue this later!!!
Matt
November 3, 2008
hi, before i start i just want to thank enrique for the site.
eh, where to start, just finished reading.ok. for me, i have moved to finland and been here for a year now, i am from england i am 19 1st came over here for a holiday when i was 18 met a girl who is a finnish resident but is from russia and basically it started from there, went over to visit a few more times and then decided to quit my job and move over to finland(helsinki) and live with my girlfriend and carry on a normal life over here.
when i 1st visted everything was fine, people seemed nice, few wierd looks now and then but nothing unusual as i have heard from many people that finish people are not the most sociable so i took no notice. problems started to arrise when i moved over here and started applying for jobs.(just to add that i passed all exams that i had taken and got top results, including A levels)the sort of job i was looking for did not matter to me as i knew i didn’t speak the language very well at the time. so again in a way i knew this might be a problem. the most frustrating thing at the time was that to my applications i sent out 99% of the time i would get no reply back from the company i applied to(but this is a completely different problem).
the longer i was starting to live over here the more i noticed that the odd stare started to turn into the odd comment about me being from another country. 1 example of this is that i was on a bus going home 1 day, speaking on the phone(in english) with my girlfriend amediately after i put down the phone, a guy decides to say to me ‘foriegners, all they do is come to our country and steal our women’ at the time i think it might have been wrong by me also to reply ‘so you should try harder then’ as then it turned into something abit more than just words. i tried to report this to the police but apparently i provoced it. but the only thing that i can see that started this was the fact that i was speaking another language.and 1 thing i dont understand is that i could just b over here on holiday, they do not know this but still comments like this are said. does it then mean that finnish people expect to be treated the same when they go abroad to other countries?
another case is that 1 day in our flat we had some decoraiters come over to paint our walls. all seemed fine. then they started to realise that my girlfriend is from russia and we started to hear comments such as ‘ruski’ muttered among the 2 of them. we sent an email complaing about this to the company that they work for and got no reply.
i do not really understand but i have noticed that there is a big dislike to russian people living in finland, not exactly sure where this comes from, all i can do is guess, is it still that they have a grudge because of the cold war 50+ years ago?
its hard to tell, just i worry alot when my girlfriend goes out that she won’t get shouted at for speaking russian which has happened before.
while on this topic i have noticed that on the news it shows alot about russia and watches everything that they are doing very closely, maybe this doesnt help the subject.1 thing at the moment with this NATO finland is unsure to sign because they thought it would be a threat to russia.
but all is not bad, i have a few friends over here and they are really nice people.
if u ask me if u think finland is rascist as a nation i say no,but i do think that there is a higher percentage of racists and cases of racism than where i came from in england.
i’v had basically 3 i’d say major experiences of racism and only been living here a year, and im only 19, in ways i think if i had been older it may have been more.
so unfortunately as i have been unable to get a job, me and my girlfriend are deciding 2 move to england as for a start iv had 3 different employers call me from there even tho i wasn’t in the country trying to employ me. and im sure that it will be abit easier for my girlfriend also getting a job.
but finland as a country is a really nice place and the people(most of them) are nice and are not as hard to get along with as others might say, that is once you get to know them, but again there are a few cases of racism, higher percentage then other places i have been, i have also been in america for 6 months and portugal for 4.
sorry if i was writing too much, i got abit carried away.
Mikko2
November 3, 2008
Indeed, if the refugee has nowhere else to go, I guess there’s at least something good in Finland after all. Being given weird looks feels like such a small problem compared to persecution etc. Not getting a job and such are more important issues that should be discussed.
Alien: I get the picture you have really grown to hate Finland. Not necessarily the people, but the government at least. Well, I guess I would too if I was denied a decent life based on national security. Good to hear you’re doing well in Sweden.
Nikki: those kind of Finns disgust me too. I am really ashamed of how some of us behave, But, please do not make extreme generalizations, I trust people calling you names is not everyday. It is probably best to just ignore them and not dwell on the experience. During the 8 years in Finland, you must have met some decent people too, right?
As for what to do about teasing at school, I believe the situation is no different from the other reasons to tease. What do parents usually do in that situation? Unfortunately I do not know myself, as I do not have kids yet. At the moment I think the best course would be to teach four things: 1) There is nothing wrong with you. 2) The other kid is ignorant. 3) You should ignore it completely and most of all, 4) Try not to lose your pride or get depressed or bitter.
Tiwaz
November 4, 2008
I ask once more from you great wise people who say how Finland has to do this or that…
HOW will Finland make people integrate? Integration starts and ends in short space between both ears of immigrant. If immigrant does not put effort to learning language, if immigrant does not put effort and work to learning Finnish culture…
How can they be uploaded to them by Finland? Learning always starts and ends in head of person who is supposed to learn.
As for how immigrants should have right to remain as they were. Fine. But Finland and Finns have every right to expect Finnish cultural norms to be respected and obeyed by immigrants. That means, if immigrants cultural norms are in violation with Finnish. Immigrant cannot expect Finns to bend over and appease his immigrant ways. HE has to change.
If you have no ability or desire to learn to live in Finland in way that does not annoy/distance/whatever Finns (namely in way Finns expect everyone to interact, according to Finnish cultural norms)…. Leaving is not unreasonable option.
Enrique
November 4, 2008
Tiwaz, if you want to see a sad case of integration by perkele check out what happened in Australia http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7216873.stm. I think this is ample proof that 100% integration is a myth. The only integration is accepting diversity. It is the way civilized nations do it.
Enrique
November 4, 2008
Hi Matt, welcome to Migrant Tales and thank you for sharing your views. What you have said it in my opinion happens too often for comfort and should not be accepted. One matter that I don not understand is how some Finns still consider racism as something “chic” and in vogue. Like any crime, it should be denounced to the police. If the police do not do anything, I would go to the ministry of interior.
Possibly the problem is that some Finns have not yet learned that it is not only rude to be a rasict, it is totally unacceptable. I am confident that the insults that you and your girlfriend suffered will become less frequent in the future. However, we must stand up to them and denounce them with all the force of the law.
Matt
November 4, 2008
i found this over the internet, it was a good read in ways as i can somehow relate to it, it covered some sort of issues, although i do not completely agree with all of the points and it only shows 1 side of the story
http://keskustelu.suomi24.fi/show.fcgi?category=500000000000002&conference=664&posting=21500000000203044
Enrique
November 5, 2008
Hi Matt, thank you for posting the link. Whatever your opinions are, I believe it is a good matter to bring matters to the fore and debate them openly. It is apparent that this person left with a very poor view of Finland.
Alien from Middle east
November 5, 2008
Tiwaz said
“But Finland and Finns have every right to expect Finnish cultural norms to be respected and obeyed by immigrants. ”
What is Finnish cultural norms that we should obey. Could you please explain for us. I want to obey your norms!
Thanks
Mikko2
November 5, 2008
Alien: Don’t you think asking someone to describe every cultural norm is a bit unrealistic? Learning a foreign culture is a big, long and arduous task requiring one to spend many years in the country in question. Understanding (if not approving) also requires the will to learn; it is entirely possible to spend one’s whole life in a foreign country without learning anything, culture or language. In such case, it’s no wonder if one slowly starts to hate every aspect in the new country, everyday life slowly turning into hell. Good to hear you have the will to learn though (even though I slightly doubt your sincerity).
This actually doensn’t have much to do with racism, but I hope it will turn into good advice for people trying to live in a foreign country (any country, not just Finland).
Alien from Middle east
November 5, 2008
1- Obeying Finnish cultural norms:
This is certainly a new thing which I am hearing. I have neither seen any legislative nor formal demands to ask immigrants to obey certain cultural norms or codes. If some body has seen them please don’t hesitate to send the link.
Aside from that I think is a reasonable expectation for a foreigner to know what norms they have to obey because norms are not defined any where. There are only rules and laws which are defined. Rules and laws have no ethnic or national dependency. Some are copied and are resulted from experiences some where else.
For some one demanding other people to do some thing, whether that is a legitimate demand or not, one has to define what he wants to be obeyed. So I guess it is a good habit to be clear about things and not just throwing some thing of which we have no idea or profound knowledge. I am sure this is not the case here and our friend is serious about his wills and explain what he wants.
2- The other thing that I only explain once and that would be last, is that we better not address each other, but just to express our points. For me this is a place that we can share our experiences and learn. This is at least what I think. For me Finland is past. I have no more any interest if Fins think immigrants are stupid, smart, good or bad. However I guess this is a nice thing to share my experiences and only with sound facts and proves. If some body can challenge my sound facts, then go ahead. I welcome it. Other than that having pictures and images and analyzing people are as valid as imaginations itself. I am a scientist and I only credit facts and proves. I do not imagine, I experience it. So this is my recommendation to my friends in this cyberspace.
Cheers,
Tiwaz
November 6, 2008
Enrique:
Do you want me to post all the failures of multiculturalism? Because it is not working ANYWHERE. It causes division and conflict in society, weakening it and making it impossible to live for everyone. Integration to existing cultural society is only working solution.
Alien:
If you want to be on equal ground with natives, you have to be able to act like native. If you do not want to be source of conflict, you have to understand and accept what is considered appropriate in Finland and what is not. Your cultural norms of what is polite and what is not are not applicable in Finland. If you try to live according to your foreign norms, you are going to keep hitting your head in a wall repeatedly. Because… THIS IS NOT MIDDLE EAST! Thus stuff that works in Middle East may, and most often do not, work here.
Different country, different way for things to work. Different way to act properly. But most immigrants do not grasp it. Then they are at awe that they are treated like badly behaving barbarians, because they ARE. Because they do not grasp that what is considered appropriate way of interaction in whateverland is rude and impolite in Finland.
If you want to live and act in Finland, or any other nation for that matter, with least problems. You have to learn to adapt to cultural norms, instead of expecting everything to work like it would at home. Perhaps in some country handing little money to police or official is normal. In Finland it is considered corruption and is source of great disapproval. So if in Finland you try to bribe your way out of traffic issue, odds are you instead get arrested and get into court for attempted bribery. And at that point you are at loss because you did not get your head around fact that different country comes with different rules of conduct.
Every country which is not divided and ready to tear itself apart (like multicultural heavens of Iraq, Somalia, USA and so forth) there is single set of rules, cultural norms, which set up rules for everyday life and interaction. Only idiot expects natives to respect and appease his foreigner ass by bending over and trying to follow his foreign, and quite likely completely unknown, cultural norms.
There are hundreds of cultures and cultural norms in the world. Only imbecile presumes that putting them together and expecting them to get along would work. There will always be rules which are not compatible with one another. So it is very unreasonable to expect natives to learn all these hundreds of sets of norms to appease whatever culture foreigner might be coming from. It is far more simple and effective if foreigners learn culture and norms of country they move into, and thus learn to act in way which does not insult natives. And which gives everyone in that country same contact surface for interaction. There is less conflict because everyone knows that doing A is polite and doing B is not polite. Instead of applying foreign cultural norms which say things are opposite, and then again wonder why people treat them like trash. (hint, because they act like one!)
There is racism of course, but much of what is considered rudeness or racism is simply failure of immigrant to learn local rules of proper and improper conduct. Interpreting disapproval of his/her bad behavior as racism.
Mikko2
November 6, 2008
Although it is very likely that a large portion of perceived racistic treatment is just a misunderstanding, I agree that certain kind of attitude problems are rather widespread in Finland.
One thing is some people disrespecting/making fun of foreigners speaking anything less than perfect Finnish. People who really take the trouble to study the extremely difficult language should be admired and encouraged! Especially the pizza song some years back makes me sick. Luckily there are still many people who do have the correct attitude.
About the written cultural norms, it is true there are (probably) no laws to force people to conform. But, on the other hand, there is probably lot of published research about Finnish culture, probably with comparations to Swedish, Russian and so on. Unfortunately it’s not my major, so I cannot give any recommendations. On the other hand, one could probably find a lot by visiting the local library, maybe even in English.
Even though there are no laws forcing people to adapt to local culture, it’s only a good idea to do so. By not fighting against the windmills, one can make one’s life a lot easier. It’s probably not necessary to become boring/boorish/silent/alcoholic or anything, but, for example, things like keeping the correct distance in conversations are not obvious, but anyhow quite important. I have noticed finns generally like to keep larger distance to each other compared to many other countries with bigger population densities. It’s quite easy to give a bad impression by barging too close. Another thing is entering strangers’ homes without knocking/ringing the doorbell (this has happened to me), or with shoes on. Don’t they really teach these kind of stuff in immigration centers?
Enrique
November 6, 2008
Hi Mikko, thank you for your insightful comments. Since it is a fact of life that in our modern Western world we learn to live with diversity, the best way for different cultures to coexist is by learning from each other. If there is a proper distance when people speak to each other in Finland, then foreigners should know this. A lot of misunderstanding could be solved if we took the effort to learn about each other’s culture.
Tiwaz
November 7, 2008
Attitude of Finns is something most immigrants do not grasp. It is less of racism and more of “Who the FU** you think you are to come and tell us how to XXXXXX”.
Of course some are just flat out racist, but I would love to see you present society where they are totally absent.
Also, the ridicule you speak of I have rarely if ever noticed when around immigrants and Finns. There also is possibility that you do not grasp Finnish friendship culture. It can include even rather cruel, from outsider point of view, use of words. But gist is, it is something between friends and not insulting, but rather sign of good enough relations that such terms can be used without anyone getting offended. At least in my circles. Got this friend who has last name of Laiho. He is commonly referred to as Luihu. Go check dictionary if you can.
In same sense, Finnish sense of humor takes some learning. It is again part of culture. I have no idea what that pizza song you speak of is, but it might be expression of this sense of humor.
There is no laws for cultural interaction, I think nobody thought it would be an issue since every Finn naturally follows those norms. And judges people based on it.
But in order to be succesful in Finnish society, you have to play by Finnish rules. You yourself presented example of personal space. We do not understand it necessarily in everyday life as Finns, because it is natural for us to keep distance. So we do not mention it to you. But when you barge into our personal space, you leave bad impression.
So you are treated like rude bastard who does not behave properly. In employment situation, it means you get big red marking in your interview paper.
Enrique, do you grasp how many different cultures and cultural rules there are in the world? Which ones Finns should learn? And why? Why should we know how it is polite to behave in Zambia if we live in Finland and never set foot in Zambia? Or Venezuela. Or Indonesia…
As opposed to people coming to Finland putting effort to learning how Finns act. That is single cultural set of norms, which happens to also be dominant in area where one lives. Far simpler and more effective solution.
Naturally, if Finn goes to Zambia, Venezuela or Indonesia, Finn has to adjust to their culture.
I have repeatedly said this, integration is that you learn to act properly in context of local culture. If your cultural norms are not in violation with Finnish, no problem. If they are, you must change. Because Finland will not change for you.
Matthew
November 10, 2008
Hi,
I moved to Finnland about 2 years ago. I am from Australia and my wife is Finnish. Most people a very nice to me and i have a group of good Finnish friends. My friends have told me that other Finns do not approve of them hanging out me because they feel that they prefer my company to theirs for reasons i don’t understand.
Anyway i have always had a job even though i can only peak very basic Finnish and have even moved up the ladder slowly over the past 2 years. Having said that i still get little to no respect from most people i work with. Im a Chef and i have been well trained in Both Australia and Europe and i am not bragging but i am clearly more skilled and have greater knowledge of food then 99% of Finns but yet no-one wants to learn from me or take any addvise even the young students. Again for reasons i don’t understand. My contract ran out at my last job and even though i know legally they had to offer me a new contract i was not given one. Its a long storry but a student with no skills and far less experinced than me was given the job and i am now unemployed. The only reason i was given for this was IM NOT FINNISH! I couldn’t believe it! I have heard opennly racsit coments before and i just take it with a grain of salt and give it back. But this bothers me. Not only is it a stupid decission but they are telling me that they don’t want foreign scum like me working for their company.
For the last few weeks i have been applying for countless jobs but i havn’t even got a single response. Mostly i think because of my poor Finnish skills. I will keep at it.
I have also been told why don’t i just go back to Australia. I always reply when every Finn leaves my country and never visits again then i will leave. But they feel they should be able to travel anywhere they want just don’t come to my homeland. Im sorry that is a very small group of people i have meet.
I just have one more thing to say. When i first came to Finland i loved it and i guess i still do but the attitudes of people towards me is slowly starting to get me down. I know for a fact that so many of them are nice to my face and even generally like me but i will alway be somewhat a lesser person to them regardless of my knowledge and experrince. Except to the ladies LOL
Let me know what you think.
elGreco
November 11, 2008
I could write entire books about the racism and discrimination in Finland and don’t compare Finland with some fascist country. Finland claims to be the most democratic least corrupted country in the world!
Finland should be compared with other EU countries or Scandinavian countries because it belongs there by situation and by economically ties.
To my opinion 40% of the Fins are racists
40% Xenophobic
20% normal
It’s a sick nation
exposing racist stalkers
do a google search with above words
elGreco
November 11, 2008
Finland has changed as has my home country has.
I can talk with many Finnish males 30 or younger.
Since Finland joined the EU I don’t get insulted on the street anymore and the typical “interviews” in the bars from the pre EU times are a thing of the past.
I have see Finnish stand up artists having a great time insulting foreigners and I have watched American artists insulting any ethnic group of people in the USA.
The short comings of those Finnish stand up artist was that they did not make fun out of Fins as ethnic group but made fun only of non Finnish ethnic groups.
Most foreigners who live here in Finland have suffered discrimination in one form or an other.
Some are to polite to want to talk about it.
Yes, foreigners have to adapt if they want to live in Finland.
I have.
I call a spate a spate and Finland is the most racist country of the EU
Don’t know about the former communist countries.
It’s a police state too.
What stopped the neo Nazis in Turku were the foreigners themselves not their supporters the police.
elGreco
November 11, 2008
http://www.saunalahti.fi/boras/home%20page/maahanmuutaja/maamuu.htm
elGreco
November 11, 2008
http://www.uta.fi/FAST/FIN/SOCPOL/mh-racis.html
Enrique
November 11, 2008
Hi elGreco, thank you for sharing this valuable information, which highlights the problem of racism in Finland. As the article points out, there are differences depending on what kinds of Finns we are talking about.
I recommend that people take the time to read the article and make their comments.
Enrique
November 11, 2008
The pre EU times were quite difficult for one simple reason: there were no laws that protected foreigners against racist attacks. But the good thing is that matters are moving ahead in a more positive manner. However, there is still a lot of work to be done to eradicate this social ill from Finland.
Enrique
November 11, 2008
Hi Matthew, thank you for your comment and welcome to Migrant Tales. If you think you have been discriminated, why not get in touch with the Ombudsman for Minorities
http://www.vahemmistovaltuutettu.fi/ and ask them for advice. The worst thing you could do is “to grin and bare it.” Remember, you are not doing this for yourself but for other non Finns who may be a target of racism.
Please keep us informed what the Ombudsman for Minorities told you.
If there are any other people that could give better advice, please post your comments.
Tiwaz
November 12, 2008
Matthew. Have you ever looked at mirror and wondered if there is something wrong with you?
I know some fools here try to tell you Finns are evil and racist. They are overall idiots who do not grasp Finnish culture. They try to pretend that Finland is just like whateveristan and that same rules apply.
For example your position on how you are so much more skilled than Finns but nobody wants to learn from you. Have you presented yourself properly in FINNISH cultural context? If you go out there and try to teach them or generally act like you would in Australia of course you get cold shoulder. Most likely your approach there, and possibly also in your attempts to get other jobs, has come out as annoying bragging ass in eyes of Finns.
Who would hire or learn from annoying bragging asshole? Nobody. But that may be what you present yourself as if you do not grasp Finnish code of conduct.
Same thing with language. What kind of responsibility can be given to you in restaurant if you cannot communicate fluently with rest of the staff in language they are used to use? I presume they used Finnish in their interaction.
Or do you presume that they switch to english for your sake alone? Might be easier, with current unemployment and all, to just let you go and replace you with someone who fits into working group and thus is less detrimental to efficiency of kitchen.
You have to stop thinking how you think you would present yourself well. You have to think how you present yourself well in eyes of Finns.
As for legal contract. How do you know they have to give it to you? Are you 100% certain you are not importing Australian legislation to Finland and presume things work the same way?
I do not claim that these are reasons why you have received treatment you did, there is some genuine racism everywhere, but this is greatest source of complaints of racism in Finland. Not Finnish racism but, sorry but it’s true, immigrant stupidity. Every sane, logically thinking person should understand that when you move to another country you cannot assume that anything is like it is at home.
Liz
November 15, 2008
As an Irish person, I was mortified, ashamed and horrified at the behaviour of the Irish Travelers in Finland. Perhaps Finnish people don’t realize this, but they are extremely unpopular in Ireland, and most people would never give them paving or other construction work of any kind as it is not reliable work. They are con-artists of the highest order. Wherever they go with their caravans and large families, they leave huge amounts of rubbish, it cost one Dublin area 250,000 euro to clean up after the mess they made on a River Embankment area in South Dublin. They live on social security, but are often involved in crime. No one in Ireland would want them living near them, if a Traveler family “settles” in a neighbourhood, the prices go down immediately. It seems they are moving farther and farther afield now, as they are “known” as troublemakers in the UK and Ireland. They want to be considered as an ethnic minority in Ireland in order to avail of the benefits of this status. It is very annoying for Irish people in general, we can’t just wake up tomorrow and decide we are not going to work, get social security and travel around, why can they? I warn all Finns to stay clear of them and have absolutely nothing to do with them. Regarding Finns, I have found them warm and perfectly normal. I have lived there in the early 90s.
Alien from Middle East
November 15, 2008
At least me as a immigrant agree on one thing with the right wing Fins. And that is take it or leave it. It is better to stop nagging and complaining about the situation and accept the fact if some body thinks that things could be changed in his life time in Finland, he is damn wrong.
Why I call them right-wing, because I think this the best to describe them. The word racist is not expressive enough and I guess a Fins (sane ones) with even half a brain believe that Finnish race is some thing to be so privileged compared to others. They are just right-wing people, e.i. they are so insensitive to others and they never think of change, they want to keep the situation as it is.
About Finnish culture;
You can see what is the Finnish culture when you read the comments belong to the persons like Tiwaz. It make no more explanation needed. The best that I can describe is that their Iron fist can be seen even under their white gloves.
Again my problem as an immigrant was never that I wanted to bribe the Finnish police and they did not like it !!! The thing was always the State or organized discrimination in the society which give leverage to Fins against the immigrants.
I should also mention that through my whole career in Finland at least in work place I never saw a person like “Tiwaz”. When they need you they are polite and fair. They will not say “Either My WAY OR HIGH WAY!”
Those Fins which their daily activities are depending in Alcohol or sleeping pills (Majority in my opinion), think that it is only immigrant who needs Finland and not the Finland which needs immigrant. So this is a wrong perception. FINLAND ALSO NEEDS IMMIGRANT. AND A LOT OF THEM. So FINS better to learn how to be polite and how the things are in more civilized societies. IF they don’t want that so called immigrant take the education and expertise and leave Finland behind while showing the middle finger!
Tiwaz
November 16, 2008
Why Finland needs immigrants?
To fulfill unemployment quota? To burn cars and riot a la Paris? To shoot our movie makers like in Netherlands?
As said, racist on this blog are commonly the immigrants. They see themselves as great lords who come to Finland to “educate” poor barbarians. It is you immigrants who try to propose that destruction of Finnish culture is improvement.
This is clearly seen on how everyone who dares to critisize immigrants is labelled, like middle eastern guy here tries to do, as some kind of nazi. Clearly immgrants in his, and enriques, mind are above reproach.
Not to mention how alien here again tries to peg his own insufficient talents as “racism”. Of course he fel that he is getting organized racism, since he did not grasp that there is no jobs for people who cannot present themselves properly in Finnish cultural context.
So, instead of learning how to interact in Finnish society such people want to have Finns change their culture.
Enrique
November 16, 2008
Tiwaz, you sound like a scared and insecure man. So being “racist” is a part of Finnish culture? Anyone who differs from your myopic views is beyond reproach? You have misunderstood the who argument. If you wrote with your real name you would never express such opinions. Do you actually believe what you claim to say?
Alien from Middle East
November 16, 2008
Tiwaz, I guess you not even read your own papers. At least watch some TV to update yourself.
Finland needs immigrant because;
1- aged population
2- lack of manpower.
3- Lots of diseases which has genetic reasons and therefore Fins should mix up with non-Fins to fix the problem
I guess at least these 3 reasons should be enough to convince any one that Finland needs immigrants. This is your politician view also that they need more immigrants. Look at the quite;
“All of the parties except the True Finns feel that it is important for Finland to get more foreign labour. “.
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Who+are+the+newcomers+that+Finland+wants/1101981943283
About burning cars; I have not seen such a news that immigrants have burned your cars. However if you treat them as you are doing now, you are increasing the chance that similar things like France will happen in here. So you again change your discriminative view and you will benefit that.
Film Directors murder; I am mot sure if your society is such a liberal and courageous society who dares to criticize taboos and old traditions as the late Director in Holland did. So you do not need to get worries about that. That is the concern of liberal societies. Many people in Europe think that Finland is actually a communist country, in which every thing is controlled including the papers. I should say that is up to a great percentage true.
Nazi!!!; Well for you as a Fin to be against Nazis is really promising. and I truly congratulate you. Though you might disappoint your grand daddy who fought shoulder by shoulder with Nazis against Jews and the rest of the world! Off course I don’t mean the biological ones.
If I am talented !; I don’t know if I am talented or stupid. You choose one. But before you decide, remember, I came to your country in 1995. By 2005, I had one B.Sc, one M. Sc from you best technical University and around 8 years of work experience in IT field. not mentioning that when I started studying in your country I was 30 years old!
Learning Finnish culture; Trust me if there has been some thing positive to learn, I have learned that and learned that fast. Not because of you but because of myself. To improve myself. So I guess one who needs more to learn is actually you. However I will not insist on it. Do whatever you like. I have already left your country so I don’t have to see angry violent faces any more.
Cheers, ever one
Alien from Middle East
November 16, 2008
Finnish cultural context
http://www.seedsofdoubt.com/images/drunk-dick-c.jpg
Tiwaz
November 17, 2008
So?
Do you want me to post some selected images of Middle Eastern cultural “pearls”?
Perhaps few articles of “honor” murder?
And Enrique, I stand behind my words in personal life. I am not scared, or insecure. I can make life for myself anywhere in the world with my education and skills.
But I prefer to stay in Finland. And I want to stay in FINNISH Finland. One that I am comfortable with. I have travelled abroad, but places out there always feel wrong. They are not like my dear little home Finland. And now you are here wanting to destroy that home. It does not scare me, it annoys me.
That you, cultural racist, have arrogance to come to Finland and tell that we should live in our country differently. That we should abandon our traditions, ways and habits and instead start imitating foreigners.
What you call “racism” is by and large immigrant stupidity. If you do not act like Finn, how could you be treated like Finn? Learn to integrate to society of Finland first. If you after succesfully integrating are still target of what you think is discrimination, then start making issue of it. Before that, you cannot be treated like Finns because you do not act like Finns.
And Alien. We have high unemployment as it is, companies are laying off workforce. We do not need foreigner workers, corporations who want foreign workers want idiots who work for peanuts. Slaves in certain sense. Finland has all the workforce it needs, with few very small exceptions. And those positions are not readily filled by immigrants because it requires more than ability to stand and breathe to fulfill position of highly skilled IT designer.
As for diseases. Our biggest problem are diseases related to cardiovascular conditions. Which are readily solved by simple method of proper diet and exercise. No need for immigrants there either!
As for rest of your rather uninformed dribble. Read history. There was one location in WW2 where there was field synagogue near German military formation.
Finland.
See, despite your claims of knowledge, you actually appear to know very little of things you speak of.
elGreco
November 18, 2008
“why not get in touch with the Ombudsman for Minorities”
It’s useless. I tried. Only 0.9% of the people who write there gets actually any help.
Just google ” racist Turku Finland” and you know my problem.
Or do a video search in google videos with:exposing racist stalkers
bdd
November 18, 2008
3) Finns often give me strange looks
Really? Perhaps you look somehow weird?
Idaho Dancer
November 18, 2008
Unenplyment among foreigners in Finland is mostly due because there is lack of education and less work related history compared to native Finns.
Enrique
November 18, 2008
Then I should go and change my hair style, bdd.
Enrique
November 18, 2008
Hi Idaho Dancer, yes, the labor markets in Finland are pretty inflexible. Despite high growth, we still have about 6% unemployment.
DKD
November 18, 2008
“Lots of diseases which has genetic reasons and therefore Fins should mix up with non-Fins to fix the problem”
Bullshit. Pure and simple.
Anselmi
November 18, 2008
Hmhh… As a Finn it makes me really sick to read these comments. Please, if you foreigners hate us racist redneck finns so much, then why do you bother to discuss our evilness and why do you bother to live in Finland at all? Is that some kind of masochism or what? Please, leave us and move to some more friendly place, if you cannot tolerate the (racist!) finnish society and our (xenophobic!) cultural norms.
Enrique
November 18, 2008
Why is it that if someone disagrees with an issue a common response is: go live somewhere else! It isn’t a very unique statement. It’s been used in all the countries by people who are intolerant of others. And who says that all the posts are by people who hate Finland?
A Finnish guy
November 18, 2008
Hello,
I find this conversation enlightening. It seems that some posts are blatantly out racist towards immigrants and others towards finnish people. Though, as a Finn, I generally tend to think that the majority has less reason to be offended of scared by the overflow of prejudice.
I come from an partly immigrant background, but am finnish (born and raised) myself (whatever “finnish” is supposed to mean). So, I surely don’t have so much insight into racism as many of you do. I think Mikko was quite spot on, about finnish people being a bit more introverted than many other cultures, and thus exlusion, hesitation and not being approached cannot so easily be accounted by racism, and shouldn’t be!
Employment and unemployment is a sensitive issue in finland. It is most certainly true, that there is a lot of competition for many jobs in finland at the moment. And I do suppose that such a thing as an accent or even a foreign name might (in the avarage) make it even more difficult to get a job. So, it’s maybe partly prejudice, but partly also caused by the difficult job-situation in all.
Mostly. I wanted to point out that finnsh with attitudes like “DeTant Blomhat”, “Tiwaz”, are in the minority. Thinking about say, DeTant Blomhat’s answer to question number five, and saying that “if you are arrested by the police, you must be involved in crime” – that is a typical and naive far-right / ultraconservative attitude towards the police and legal security. Certainly not shared by most of the finnsh, certainly not shared by our legal institutions, and certainly not shared by anyone having even the most basic legal education or reflective skills concerning society. As a Finn I am offended by DeTant Blomhat’s generalization that this ultraconservative view is a “finnish view”.
As you can see, someone with a great deal of prejudice does not hesitate to attribute with violence of discourse his views even to other finns. Well, last that I heard we were a democracy, and we vote with a plurality of different oppinions for the legislation. Finnish culture is _not_ a “monoculture” (if such a thing exists), you must understand that finnish culture is originally a collection of different influences from russia, sweden and even the sami-people. Of course it is typical of a far-right nationalistic attitude to try to dream up such a thing as a homogenic “finnish” culture. But, that just isn’t based on facts. A born and raised, educated citized of helsinki might have more in common with a non-finnish citydweller of say europe, than he might culturally have in common with someone living in the forests of northern finland.
It is obvious, that in any kind of form of social interaction, be it with a finn or a foreigner, you have to learn about the other person, and also learn to respect his boundaries. By making this relation unsymmetrical people like DeTant Blomhat and Tiwaz just show their unrealistic view of the finnish culture as being something homogenic and also are able to dwell on hate towards foreigners.
Interesting indeed, though scary and a bit psychotic is Tiwazis insistance on dwelling on violent news on crimes. Instead of actually getting to know non-criminals and people of the world living out normal lives.
Enrique
November 18, 2008
Welcome to Migrant Tales A Finnish guy: You make some very good level-headed points. Your sensitivity of the topic probably is attributable to your upbringing.
I hope that more people as yourself would bring forth their views.
Thank you!
Anselmi
November 18, 2008
“Why is it that if someone disagrees with an issue a common response is: go live somewhere else!”
Because our Finnish culture drives us to say so. It’s a Finnish norm. Finland is not (yet) a multiethnical, multicultural or pluralistic country and we still have only one set of basic values. We still think that everybody who lives with us must share and obey them, or otherwise be “excluded”. We do not have a tradition of having multiple sets of values in our country. We are not intolerant of others if them behave like they should behave. “When in Rome, do as the Romans do” etc.
Oh yes, it’s a very widespreaded statement. Think, for example, about having Christmas decorations in Saudi Arabia (beating, jail, even death?) or Singapore and its fascistic laws? Or Japan and “gaijins”. Or even the vast redneck-districts of USA. The multivalual countries (or rather, cities) are rare in this world, and Finland is not one of them. Try to understand this. Do not evaluate us with your (possibly multicultural) country’s values. That is cultural imperialism. We have the right to be upset about it, and defend ourselves.
“And who says that all the posts are by people who hate Finland?”
If someone whines and whines and whines and whines about racism in Finland, how typical racism is for Finns and how every Finn is racist and racism is taught in schools and living in Finland is unbearable because of racism; and if racism is a bad thing; doesn’t this mean that he/she hates Finland? Or is it some kind of a multicultural compliment, a way to tell that Finland is OK?
PS.
We Finns are very curious of what foreign people think about us. We try to please the other members of the EU. We have all learned English to communicate with them. We provide free education and other services to them. We have had innumerable campaigns to prevent racism, even in our schools. And then you foreigners whine this. We Finns have a word for this: Kiittämättömyys. Google it.
Enrique
November 18, 2008
–Because our Finnish culture drives us to say so. It’s a Finnish norm. Finland is not (yet) a multiethnical, multicultural or pluralistic country and we still have only one set of basic values.
Finland is a pluralistic society. I think you are generalizing. Why, then, are there so many political parties. It is a good thing that some of us are becoming aware of the vices of racism and that it has no place in Finnish or in any society.
I for one have trust that things will improve in Finland but there is still a lot of work to be done. When Finland gained independence in 1917, are you saying that some of our forefathers such as Gallen-Kallela, Sibelius, Mannerheim whined about being under Russian rule? Debate is always healthy and it shows something that you many not be aware of: gratefulness that people in this country can bring forth their grievances and have them heard. It is not a sign of being an ingrate.
Alex
November 18, 2008
Obansu: You mean that if I don’t vote for a (social democratic) Somali or some other candidate of an ethnic minority, then I am a racist? Is that what you wanted to say?
BTW: Finnish people are one small ethnic minority of this world.
A Finnish guy
November 18, 2008
“Because our Finnish culture drives us to say so. It’s a Finnish norm. Finland is not (yet) a multiethnical, multicultural or pluralistic country and we still have only one set of basic values. We still think that everybody who lives with us must share and obey them, or otherwise be “excluded”. We do not have a tradition of having multiple sets of values in our country. We are not intolerant of others if them behave like they should behave. “When in Rome, do as the Romans do” etc.”
Not true, or at least then I was never handed the rule book. The only one set of rules we have is the legistlation of the country, and even that can be changed somewhat through democratic process.
Part from that finland in diverse in different kinds of manners and subcultures, be they youthcultures or manners, or regional differences or local differences. And I have got to know quite a bit of finnish people during my lifetime to observe this.
“If someone whines and whines and whines and whines about racism in Finland, how typical racism is for Finns and how every Finn is racist and racism is taught in schools and living in Finland is unbearable because of racism; and if racism is a bad thing; doesn’t this mean that he/she hates Finland? Or is it some kind of a multicultural compliment, a way to tell that Finland is OK?”
Saying genericalle that all foreigners whine is just prejudice. Anyway this oppinion is usually more based on a spread of conservative urbal legend in the coffee-tables than real insidents. And if someone unjustifyingly calls you a racist, don’t be scared, you should have the sisu to just step up and in a polite manner explain, that you are not racist, and your actions have reasons. Unjustified hollers of racism certainly does not imply that real racism doesn’t exist and that due action should not be taken in weeding it out.
Enrique
November 18, 2008
Hi Alex, are you serious? How can you be a racist if you don’t vote for a certain candidate?
Hippo
November 18, 2008
”
- I am happy now here. But Finland was like a nightmare for me.
So this was my experience from Finland!
Cheers”
-So you got housing, food and money forliving from 1994 to 1999
-You got a B.Sc degree in computer engineering in May 1999. and M.Sc. in Telecommunication from Helsinki University of Technology in 2005 paid by the Finnis taxpayers. Studying is free of charge even in the universities. Students are allso obligated about 300 € / month student alloance and 80% of the rent is paid by the covernament.
- I am sorry about the citizenship fiasco. But it seems that Supo had some sort of material that was provided by a foreing intelligence service that demanded not to reveal the material. It is something that should not happen. Person should be able to see all material conserning he or her. Unfortunatelly allso Finns are suspected to same unjust method. There is material that was received From German BND – so called “Rosenholtz files” – containing information of finnish spies recruted by former DDR`s Hauptverwaltung Aufklärung, HVA.
The material is not open, though even one person was gharged to the court as spy.
The reason why material is not revealed is treaty with BND – not to reveal the material.
In finnish we are talking about Tiitisen lista ( in finnish : http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiitisen_lista ) .
Unfortunetally you may find similar problems in Sweden when applying citizenship. The same information may be in Säpo files too, with same restrections?
But quite a nightmare – free living for years and two free of gharge university degrees.
Only Finland seems to be able to treat asylumseekers so bad.
Alex
November 18, 2008
Enrique, exactly.
Alex
November 18, 2008
What Obansu said earlier:
“Though some political parties like SDP have constantly window dressed their candidates list to include few Somalians, but the average racist finnish voter will rather vote for his dog rather than vote for a foriegner.”
That lead me to ask the question.
Anselmi
November 18, 2008
Enrique:
Gallen-Kallela and others indeed “whined” BUT it was Russia that had invaded and occupied their country and tried to russificate it. Now there is some guys also whining, but 1) Finland is not their native country 2) their native country is not being changed into something else 3) they (the whiners) want to change Finland to obey their standards. Gallen-Kallela and others didn’t tried to fennicizate Russia. I don’t see any sense in this comparison. The only mutual thing here is “whining”…
I might be generalizing, but I think it’s very clear that all these whining foreigners misunderstand finnish habits and see them as examples of racism. Hmm. Maybe they are not multicultural at all. They cannot cope with different habits, standards and values etc. That is not racism (racial discrimination) but ethnocentrism, narrowmindedness and perhaps bigotry.
Yes, we have lots of political parties. They all represent the same Finnish values, and usually their policies are also very similar. There’s no country where everyone shares same political opinions. Another failed comparison.
Finns are still a really homogeneous people in Europe. Minorities have been traditionally nonexistent, or at least very finnicizated (Finland-Swedes, Romanis, Samis etc.) and few. Meeting and understanding differently talking, thinking and acting people is still something really new in this country. It seems that this is a hard part to understand for some immigrants, who come from countries that have been in the centre of the civilization for centuries.
A Finnish Guy:
“The only set of rules we have is the legistlation of the country, and even that can be changed somewhat through democratic process.”
Yeah, yeah, right. You clearly, with or without purpose, misunderstood the meaning of values I used. I see… Does the law say how to act in a bus? Or in an elevator? Or how to talk with people and show interest? What is polite and what is not? There are regional differences in Finnish culture, whatever that culture means, but the differences of Finnish and any other culture are far more bigger.
Have you read anything about the Finnish national characteristics? I’ve read a manual for businessmen on how to cope with finnish culture (because I’m a curious Finn and interested in the “Suomi-kuva.”) Perhaps it was all rubbish, everybody on the Earth behave likewise and there’s only some global subcultures and brands and so on? No, we are not so globalized yet.
“Saying genericalle that all foreigners whine is just prejudice.”
I didn’t said that.
“Anyway this oppinion is usually more based on a spread of conservative urbal legend in the coffee-tables than real insidents.”
No, my opinion about whining was made on the comments in this thread.
“explain, that you are not racist, and your actions have reasons.”
Many finns, including me, have tried to do that in this thread. But somehow most of the foreigners in this conversation doesn’t (want to?) understand that, and blame us for racism over and over again.
I admit that there is racism in the Finnish society, but NOT 99% OF FINNS ARE RACISTS and so on… I don’t want to make a list about insults on Finnish people in this thread, you can read it yourself.
Enrique
November 18, 2008
–1) Finland is not their native country 2) their native country is not being changed into something else 3) they (the whiners) want to change Finland to obey their standards. Gallen-Kallela and others didn’t tried to fennicizate Russia. I don’t see any sense in this comparison. The only mutual thing here is “whining”…
I would not call what happened before 1917 as “whining” but a “cry for Finnish independence.” In today’s world, there are different ways of being accepted in a community than just being born in a country. There are hybrid cultures, bi and multi cultural people who feel at home in more places than one.
True: one of the matters of forging Finnish national identity has been to make Finland appear homogeneous. But statistically Finland can never be a homogeneous country because there are minorities. If Finland has succeeded at “Finnicizing” minorities why are there problems with some non-Finns? However, I think this idea of Finland being a near homogeneous society is a semi myth since it has never been tested when there are larger diverse groups than the Roma or Saami. Another certain myth is that things were better back then and now non-Finns are destroying the country.
Probably one reason why some express such strong opinions about foreigners in this blog and in public is that foreigners are a new thing in Finland.
But you are right: foreigners and Finns should learn more about their respective cultures to avoid misunderstandings.
Enrichment in action
November 18, 2008
“Finland needs immigrant because;
1- aged population
2- lack of manpower.
3- Lots of diseases which has genetic reasons and therefore Fins should mix up with non-Fins to fix the problem”
None of these three reasons are actually true.
But it is true that they are repeated in every news report made by Yleisradio, official media source of the government, about immigration.
“if foreigners use a trick then they will succed here! make a big family like 6-7 kids! and just take social! its the best way in finland! 99% finns r racist believe me!”
Yes, this is a big problem and not fixing it after all these years of blatant abuse is a good example of how far from reality of ordinary citizens the current crop of politicians and political parties in Finland have become.
I like the premise that unemployement of foreigners in Finland is high automatically because the Evil Finns are discriminating against them. As if it isn’t possible for any other reasons.
Enrique
November 18, 2008
Hi Enrichment in action: So what you are saying is that Finland’s aging population is a made up story? Then why don’t you enlighten us with your knowledge and explain with facts why it isn’t true? Your reasoning is flawed. Why would a young person want to come to live in Finland, have 6-7 children as you claim and live off welfare? And can you actually live well on welfare in Finland?
There are just as many Finns abusing the systems as there are foreigners. Have you ever asked yourself why these types of abuses, which are quite numerous, do not get reported in the mainstream Finnish media but then people as yourself are the first ones to point the finger at foreigners.
Anselmi
November 18, 2008
I would not call what happened before 1917 as “whining” but a “cry for Finnish independence.”
I didn’t started to talk about whining and Finland’s independence in same sentence… As I said, I don’t see any sense in this comparison.
“There are hybrid cultures, bi and multi cultural people who feel at home in more places than one.”
Yep, but in Finland they are rare (when compared to international metropolises like London or Berlin). Remember, we have only some 5 million Finns living in a quite large area. For example, more people live in a single city just about 100 km from Finnish border, in St. Petersburg. So a real multicultural person is a very rare sight in small rural Finnish towns or even in the “bigger” “cities” like Kuopio or Jyväskylä and quite rare (by international standards) even in Helsinki.
“But statistically Finland can never be a homogeneous country because there are minorities.”
As I said, the minorities were small and very similar to Finns. They looked like Finns, usually talked also Finnish and so on, and Finns were used to them. The Finland-Swedes, the largest minority, thought that they were not Swedes but swedish-speaking Finns. They fennizicated themselves in great numbers before and after the independence struggle. Before the first, few refugees came in the 60′s and 70′s Finland was utterly homogeneous and still is.
“However, I think this idea of Finland being a near homogeneous society is a semi myth since it has never been tested when there are larger diverse groups than the Roma or Saami.”
Eh, what do you mean with this sentence? It’s quite incoherent. Do you mean that the idea of Finnish homogeneousity is a semi myth because it has not been tested (how to test an idea???) nowadays, when there are other, larger minorities?
When there were no larger minorities, Finland WAS very homogenous. And now, when there is some larger diverse groups, finland IS STILL quite homogenous, because those groups are still relatively small (smallest percentage in Europe?).
“If Finland has succeeded at “Finnicizing” minorities why are there problems with some non-Finns?”
These are typically not our hundreds-of-years-old minorities, but some newer groups, that has lived in Finland 10-20 years, doesn’t have language skills and thus are unemployed in great numbers etc. Let’s look them again in 2500.
“Another certain myth is that things were better back then and now non-Finns are destroying the country.
Probably one reason why some express such strong opinions about foreigners in this blog and in public is that foreigners are a new thing in Finland.
But you are right: foreigners and Finns should learn more about their respective cultures to avoid misunderstandings.”
Very true.
Enrique
November 18, 2008
–Yep, but in Finland they are rare (when compared to international metropolises like London or Berlin). Remember, we have only some 5 million Finns living in a quite large area. For example, more people live in a single city just about 100 km from Finnish border, in St. Petersburg. So a real multicultural person is a very rare sight in small rural Finnish towns or even in the “bigger” “cities” like Kuopio or Jyväskylä and quite rare (by international standards) even in Helsinki.
Anselmi, you should look a little further beyond our border. There are over 1 million people who are Finns or who still consider themselves Finns living abroad. By forging a Finnish prototype we have forgotten these Finns, or do not consider them to be part of our group. If we look at this one-million-plus group, we can make an argument that Finnish culture and Finns are a very rich, diverse group that does not only fit to what I call the “mainland Finns.” Mainland Finnish culture is the benchmark of our culture but there are many offshoots: Ingrians, Saami, Finnish Canadians, Finnish Brazilians and so forth. All these people are Finns as well and have a right to claim this country as their home.
Enrique
November 18, 2008
–But you are right: foreigners and Finns should learn more about their respective cultures to avoid misunderstandings.”
In my opinion, there should be courses on Finnish culture and history to new foreigners that move to this country. What do you think would be important to teach foreigners about Finnish culture?
Sigrdrifa
November 18, 2008
My family has roots at the border of Sweden and Norway. According to a story, one of my forefathers left from there in 17th century because of the schism he had with the church. Back then, Finland was a destination for people like him who had become drop-outs of the European societies by their inability to follow the norms.
In my home village in Central Finland, there are also people whose grandparents came from Russia after 1917. They also faced problem with following the norms that their society demanded from them. In our village they didn’t have to define whether they supported this and that ism or belonged to this or that class. So they stayed here. No-one here speaks much Russian, so the people who came from there and stayed here after October revolution started to speak Finnish, and now their grandchildren even have Finnish names. It is considered as quite normal here, their background and their absorption into local ways. We do not even think about it much that many of us have roots outside Finland, except for when we get drunk and start to talk about old times and the favorite Finnish topic, which is “the madness of the big world far away from here”.
From the historical standpoint, coming to Finland has very often been a strong statement about what you think about the society you leave behind and the labels that it places upon a man. Moving to Finland has in earlier times meant that you run, flee and leave everything behind, cut all ties to your old life. Among the Russians who came soon after 1917, there were noblemen of highest rank from St. Petersburg and men who had left unimaginable riches behind them in Russia. In here they became just like everyone else, anonymous. In Finland, to my opinion, it is not possible to become happy or build relations with locals if your head is full of ideas about being a Christian, a jew, a communist, a rich man, a beggar, a moslim, a moral man, an intelligent man, an educated man, a man of the world etc.. One can only become oneself. This is the last asylum of the people “who guard the wisdom about how not to think and talk continuously or believe in useless things”, as my grandfather used to explain to his Russian born neighbor after few drinks.
So here’s bit background for the reasons why Finns are not very keen on welcoming people who immigrate in here yet continue saying how their culture, their behavior and their norms should be accepted or even tolerated by us, not to say that we could ever consider such to be an enrichment to our culture. Our ancestors have already come from where you are now coming from, and they came in here exactly for the reason they had grown weary of your culture and norms, and saw that all as what it is: mere insane somnabulism of the big world.
Where can we Finns run if even in Finland, in the final frontier of this earth we cannot be left alone from the priest, from the mullah, from the politician and from the rastafari – not to speak about other salesmen on mission to enslave us with designer clothes, hot and exotic temper or poodle-like graces?
We emigrate to the darkside of the Moon? Anyone willing to join?
Anselmi
November 18, 2008
“Anselmi, you should look a little further beyond our border. There are over 1 million people who are Finns or who still consider themselves Finns living abroad.”
Yes I am quite familiar with them, Ulkosuomalaiset. There’s documents about them in TV, for example, quite frequently, and I’ve met a couple of them.
They are indeed quite a diverse group. Some groups of them have left Finland generations ago, and they still conside themselves as Finns. Others barely remember some Finnish words. Some are international businessmen (I have a relative in the UK who owns a dentist clinic), some have just escaped Finland’s poverty (My father emigrated to Sweden and worked there quite a long time).
But the “off-mainland” Finnish culture has only one sad thing: it’s dying everywhere. Those Ingrians, Finnish Americans and Forest Finns. Sooner or later the ulkosuomalaiset have assimilated into the culture where they emigrated. If some family is not seriously nationalistic (why would they leave their homeland then?) their “own culture” is lost in a couple of generations. Its assimilation, its how immigration works.
“All these people are Finns as well and have a right to claim this country as their home.”
Of course, but how long they will remember it?
“What do you think would be important to teach foreigners about Finnish culture?”
Hmm… That’s a really difficult question. It probably depends on how similar their culture is when compared with the Finnish one. Finnish habits and “etiquette” are good to know, if one wants to negotiate with Finns or otherwise spend time with them (and that is what this conversation is all about…)
Maybe some important differences of Finnish culture and theirs should be teached. But otherwise its everyones own choice by what aspect of culture interests them, and its hard to say what else every foreigner should know.
blond, not racist(yet) finn boy
November 18, 2008
O well. Im kinda speechless. I read all the comments and Im glad that u ppl let me know what u truly think about us finns. Ive thought that Im tolerant and my fellow citizens are pretty much aswell. So far Ive got along extremely well with every foreigner, but after readin this thread and its comments Im convinced that us finns arent the racist ones.
But however, Thank u all for making me a bit more proud of my Finnish roots and our superiour welfare country!
Hopefully you all will find your ideal dreamland somewhere. For myself I have found my own one and I will love living with my blonde,shy and “racist” countrymen!
Peace! And once again , CHEERS A LOT!!
Enrique
November 18, 2008
–But the “off-mainland” Finnish culture has only one sad thing: it’s dying everywhere. Those Ingrians, Finnish Americans and Forest Finns. Sooner or later the ulkosuomalaiset have assimilated into the culture where they emigrated. If some family is not seriously nationalistic (why would they leave their homeland then?) their “own culture” is lost in a couple of generations. Its assimilation, its how immigration works.
They have assimilated but possibly not acculturated yet. That is why I think that when talking about Finnish culture we should include these “off mainland” Finns as part of our community. As you know, language is a strong bond that forges a sense of cultural unity. However, I think that only now we are beginning to appreciate and accept that Finnish culture is diverse and rich. Thus when we speak of Finnish culture, we should always include — not exclude — these people as part of our heritage.
–Of course, but how long they will remember it?
Some continue to remember their dear Suomi for many generations. Those who still speak Finnish and have sentimental bonds to this country are not only bridges to other countries but rich manifestations of how Finnish culture and language has evolved outside of our country.
Enrique
November 18, 2008
–Hmm… That’s a really difficult question. It probably depends on how similar their culture is when compared with the Finnish one. Finnish habits and “etiquette” are good to know, if one wants to negotiate with Finns or otherwise spend time with them (and that is what this conversation is all about…)
Etiquette is important in order not to make blunders. I think some of the visitors to this blog have brought some interesting suggestions. One of these that surprised me was the appropriate distance when conversing. One of the problems with such a course would be determining what is representative of Finnish culture since there are many types of Finns with differing opinions of what they consider culturally important.
One of the first things I would teach would be how Finns greet. There are many variations, of course. However, some foreigners mistakenly believe Finns are “cold” because the way they greet is so laconic. Simple facts like what does it mean when a Finn invites you to a sauna, or what about lapses of silence between two people? In some parts of the United States, silence between two people at a party can be seen as being an embarrassing situation. In Finnish culture, it is fine to have long lapses of silence. I am generalizing here but you understand what I mean.
Enrique
November 18, 2008
Hi Sigrdrifa, thank you for sharing such an interesting comment on what Finland means to you. Do you think that the reasons why your grandfather came to Finland still holds true for most of the Finns? Do you think that it is more a rural as opposed to urban phenomenon?
Enrique
November 18, 2008
Hi blond, and welcome to Migrant Tales and for sharing your thoughts. I don’t have to search for a dreamland anywhere since I already live here.
So tell us how we can get more foreigners to feel the same way as you about Finland.
Angie
November 18, 2008
Hola Enrique
Me causo gracia lo que dijiste al comparar los colombianos con los finlandeses. En todo caso , tambien estas generalizando alli, y haciendo comentarios racistas (?) no todos los colombianos seran como tu piensas que son.
There is one thing that suprised me a lot. I lived in the Uk, and travel several times to the schnegen area. I have entered to the Schengen area via Norway, Netherlands, Italy, France, Germany and this year twice via Finland. The only country where the police has stopped to me at the inmigration point is in Finland. I am sure is because I am Latin American with dark skin and dark hair.
I have lived in many countries, in Scnadinavia, Continental Europe, Uk, Africa and Asia….and everywhere I have found discrimination and unfair rules agaisnt minorities. It is the nature of the human being….we need to protect ourselves.
Enrique
November 19, 2008
Hola Angie, un gusto de saludarte. No sé dónde hice tal comparación y que los colombianos son racistas. Viví en Colombia durante 1998-2000 y fue una de las más lindas experencias que tuve. Me gustó mucho tu país y lamento toda la violencia que siguen sufrido por esas latitudes.
Discrimination is not, in my opinion, something “natural” but an ill that has no place in any society. There is more to gain without discrimination than with it.
Angie
November 19, 2008
Hola Enrique
Lei los anteriores post y me encontre con uno que dice que has vivido en Colombia. Aun sigo pensado que es graciosa la comparacion que haces de los Colombianos y los Filandeses. Entre otras cosas porque ( segun tengo entendido) los Finlandeses no tienen un tradicion de ser una cultura violenta. Creo que esa comparacion es mas valida entre un Colombiano y un Ingles. Los dos pueden matar, uno con la sonrisa en la cara, y el otro diciendote “love” o “darling”. Pero los finlandeses segun mi modo de ver son gente pacifica, transparente y con una etica elevada ( quizas producto de la alta influencia de la iglesia protestante alli (?).
Enrique
November 19, 2008
Hola Angie, es verdad los que dices: los finlandeses son generalmente más pacificos que los colombianos. Esto, creo, se debe más al contexto político. Leí mi nota “Life in Colombia” y no comparo Colombia con Finlandia. Sólo escibo sobre la colectividad finlandesa en Colombia y sobre un pueblo en Quindio que se llama Filandia.
Has vuelto a Colombia?
Fabiola
November 19, 2008
Well I just wanted to contribute because I see a lack of positive experiences in this thread. I have to say I do not feel discriminated in any way in this country, or, maybe I do not care if someone does not want to get along with me, is their problem
. I am from Mexico, have the “latin” look and happen to be married to a Dutch guy that I met in Finland. We have friends of many nationalities including many Finns.
We decided to stay here for practical reasons, we both have jobs (not in Nokia), but in English working environment companies, and we think services work and are less burocratic as opossed to Mexico, I actually feel better in terms of gender equality, this is a paradise compare to how women in Mexico are discriminated at work.
I speak English at home and at work, so my Finnish skills have suffered, nevertheless I would like to improve my Finnish at some point, at least I can enroll again to another Finnish course at my workplace and try to practice… I have a son, who goes to päiväkoti, he can now say many words in Spanish, Dutch and Finnish, I am afraid we will learn Finnish before me!!
In general, I think it makes a difference if you have a good job here, that you actually enjoy and get fair paid for, keep some hobbies and have a nice social network that somehow can replace family. Our little family here is the three of us. But overall I am happy.
elGreco
November 19, 2008
blond, not racist(yet) finn boy : yes you are racist. See the comment you made:
Thank u all for making me a bit more proud of my Finnish roots and our superiour welfare country!
===========================================================000
Swedish, Danish and Norwegian wealthfare is by far more superior to Finnish welfare but their citizens are less racists then the Fins. Thank goodness not all Fins are like you and by the way: Critic is a positive part of every healthy democratic society but to many Finns are reacting to strong towards critic. Could there be “mayby” be something wrong with the demoacratic structure of Finland or people like you? Clapping hands and saying everything is nice is an indicator for dictatorships. So if you don’t like critic then you should move to a country where critisizing is illegal and leave the country to the democratic Fins and democratic foreigners.
A Finnish guy
November 19, 2008
First of all, I have to say again, that the racism in this thread seems to go both ways. I’m not really concerntrating on the racism towards finns in my replies.
-
There is a problem with the so-called principle of “In Rome do as Romans do”, or “Maassa maan tavalla”. And this is something I would be glad to see Anselmi, DeTant Blomhat etc. to understand.
Now to me ,first of all, I do not think the principle is coherent. It is not well enough described to be so. So, the racist situations it allows go as follows: If person A, from a foreign country, acts a bit different from person B from finland, person B, if racist may get angry and then explain, that the problem was that person A didn’t act like “you are supposed to in finland.
Still and at the same time it is highly possible that person C from finland acts just as person A or more like person A, not like person B. So as the whole fact of “how to act in filand” is not well defined, it serves as an endless mechanism of justifying perjudice behaviour, and then not calling it such. Just calling it “the way of the country”.
-
Now, the other problem is this, and I repeat myself: in _every_ kind of real social interaction both sides, be it a finn and finn, or a finn and a foreigner have to learn. Saying that it is only the foreigners “job” to adapt is unrealistic and even threatening. It doesn’t really open up real possibilities for social interaction. Both sides need to reflect on themselves, _not_ on others. This is the constructive approach to the matter.
And I want to ask Anselmi, DeTant etc. Do they understand this fact?
“Yeah, yeah, right. You clearly, with or without purpose, misunderstood the meaning of values I used. I see… Does the law say how to act in a bus? Or in an elevator? Or how to talk with people and show interest? What is polite and what is not? There are regional differences in Finnish culture, whatever that culture means, but the differences of Finnish and any other culture are far more bigger.”
Look, I might act much more similar to say a mexican or a turkish guy in an elevator than to a random savonian. There is no typically finnish way to go on a elevator. Maybe we are a bit more quite, but I see no mind in actually telling foreigners that they are not “allowed” to talk on busses, because this is not the finnish way. WTF? That would be non-sense. I know in fact that many finnish people are gladdend when they are approached by foreigenrs that have a bit more active social skills and are not afraid to talk to new people. So it would be completely nonsensical to say, that in finland foreigners should become introeverted, because a lot of, especially country-side, finns are introverted.
Enrique
November 19, 2008
Hi A Finnish guy, you make an excellent point. If we learned more of each other and respected each other’s cultures, then that would reduce misunderstandings and problems. People like DeTant, Tiwaz and others believe that they do not have to move an inch to learn about these foreigners since this is their country (sic!), full stop. In the same way we have learned to travel geographically, we should learn how to travel in cultures.
Even though it is impossible to generalize, what do you think are some important matters that foreigners should absolutely know about Finnish culture or interacting with Finns?
Thank you for your insights on the matter.
Anselmi
November 19, 2008
elGreco:
“blond, not racist(yet) finn boy : yes you are racist. See the comment you made:
Thank u all for making me a bit more proud of my Finnish roots and our superiour welfare country!”
And again these. I don’t want to be a 24/7 defender of Finnish culture, but when I read this kind of comments I had to react.
Are you a troll or something?
If someone is proud of his Finnish roots and Finnish welfare, that isn’t racism. Racism means racial discrimination. Or maybe ethnical, but this kind of definitions are only ridiculous. Try to understand the meaning of words before you use them. This is how “racism” is becoming an empty word, that doesn’t mean anything, and what is used when trying to insult someone.
Yes you are a troll.
A Finnish guy:
Yes, I understand your points, but I think some of them have too much naivete, obliviousness and/or idealism in them that I could wholly accept them.
Fabiola:
“Well I just wanted to contribute because I see a lack of positive experiences in this thread. I have to say I do not feel discriminated in any way in this country.”
Nice to hear that!
Tiwaz
November 20, 2008
“Look, I might act much more similar to say a mexican or a turkish guy in an elevator than to a random savonian. There is no typically finnish way to go on a elevator. Maybe we are a bit more quite, but I see no mind in actually telling foreigners that they are not “allowed” to talk on busses, because this is not the finnish way. WTF? That would be non-sense. I know in fact that many finnish people are gladdend when they are approached by foreigenrs that have a bit more active social skills and are not afraid to talk to new people. So it would be completely nonsensical to say, that in finland foreigners should become introeverted, because a lot of, especially country-side, finns are introverted.”
Congratulations. You are one of those few in every country who through fluke of fate fit better in some other country.
Yes, we Finns are quiet. We are introverted. We do not want to be bothered.
All foreigners are free to speak in elevator or try to chat up if they want. But if they get silent treatment, they are NOT free to whine how Finns are racist. Because they are themselves failing to respect general Finnish attitude of “do not disturb”.
Finns have far wider area of “no-entry” than natives of most other, usually more crowded areas. Getting withing 1-1.5 meters of your average Finn will make him/her think you are trespassing in their private zone. So, because you make Finn uncomfortable they respond like they would to anyone making them uncomfortable. If they are being interviewed for a job, they might suck it up to get the job. If they are ones hiring, they might just decide they do not hire that troublesome guy.
This is Finland. There is no need for me, Finn, to start playing by your cultural norms if you come to Finland. I do not give a flying f**** if someones culture says that farting to your face is polite. Here it is not.
Here, if you do that, I treat you like I would treat anyone else who behaves so badly.
Reality is, everything everyone does in Finland in eyes of Finns is judged according to Finnish standards. No by Zambian, Gambian or Whateveristan standards. What might be polite there, is not here. If you act impolitely here, you are treated as rude bastard. It does not matter if you are Finn or foreigner.
To expect to have some kind of preferential treatment is stupidity of immigrants.
blond, not racist(yet) finn boy
November 21, 2008
“Swedish, Danish and Norwegian wealthfare is by far more superior to Finnish welfare”
U are absolutely right and Im happy it’s that way. No wonder why other nordic countries have 5-10times more asulym seekers. See the pattern?
I wasnt talking about economical welfare only. Ive been in swe / den and Ive read and seen a lot. Finland is far more safer country to live in. Good game.
Enrique
November 21, 2008
Wow, blond, not racist/yet) finnboy, you are a real soc ial scientist! You should do your PhD dissertation on the correlation between welfare and asylum seekers. So many people have been refugees and they have made something out of themselves in countries where there are opportunities. My great grandfather was a refugee and I am very proud of that fact.
blond, not racist(yet) finn boy
November 22, 2008
Maybe I should, good idea mate!
Anyway, the bottom line of my first sarcastic message was that after reading this whole “conversation” here, the racistic messages here are coming from other people than finns. Reading this information here has changed my opinion about foreigners totally.
I have no more interested to read and comment here. Have fun despising us finns here. I still keep living happily in our finnish “lintukoto” thx n bye!
Enrique
November 22, 2008
That is your choice. In a democratic country you and everyone have the right to chose and air their points of views. Good luck!
Hippo
November 23, 2008
”
From the historical standpoint, coming to Finland has very often been a strong statement about what you think about the society you leave behind and the labels that it places upon a man. Moving to Finland has in earlier times meant that you run, flee and leave everything behind, cut all ties to your old life. Among the Russians who came soon after 1917, there were noblemen of highest rank from St. Petersburg and men who had left unimaginable riches behind them in Russia. In here they became just like everyone else, anonymous. In Finland, to my opinion, it is not possible to become happy or build relations with locals if your head is full of ideas about being a Christian, a jew, a communist, a rich man, a beggar, a moslim, a moral man, an intelligent man, an educated man, a man of the world etc.. One can only become oneself. This is the last asylum of the people “who guard the wisdom about how not to think and talk continuously or believe in useless things”, as my grandfather used to explain to his Russian born neighbor after few drinks. ”
My family came in 1919 from ST.Petersburg. They had to leave everything behind. Apartment, even photos. My great grand father was over 50 years old, without no money with two children in Finland. No going back. On ly one of his brothers managed to come to Finland. Other family perished.
He was a businessman, he had bought weed from Russia to a finnish company and sold finnish produce in Russia. He got emplyed and was building a house in 1921! With his brother they started and reopened orthodox -church that was left by russian soldiers. In surroundings there were next to none other orthodox-people in 20-30-ties.
Children adopted in sociaty as the family. Children got educated in lyseum and kauppaoppilaitos also girls. 1939 onward my grandmother worked as Lotta and his brother was officer in finnish army. He was in rank of capitan in Karelian isthmus defending Finland against enemy coming from his birth city.
They got integrated and made good life in Finland – even though they arrived pennyless -with out multiculturalism etc. dogma.
Enrique
November 23, 2008
That is a nice account you gave, Hippo. It goes to show that “home” is something that can change. I am happy that your family ended up growing up in a society that they considered home. How do you think this can be applied to fit today?
Tiwaz
November 24, 2008
Did you miss the message in his tale?
They made it because they did not try to change Finland. They accepted for what it was and built from there, adapting to society and not expecting society to adapt to them.
Same thing works today.
Those who are willing to work for their living, willing to integrate into Finland as it is. Welcome. Those who want to introduce(push) their “groundbreaking” cultural or ideological ideas (like multiculturalism) into Finnish society…
F*** off.
kauski
November 24, 2008
if you dont like racists dont come in finnland kk?
Enrique
November 24, 2008
Hi Kauski, if people would run away from everything they consider repulsive, there would be no place on earth to go. Running away from a problem is definitely not the answer.
Enrique
November 24, 2008
–They made it because they did not try to change Finland. They accepted for what it was and built from there, adapting to society and not expecting society to adapt to them.
I understood the point perfectly well. The problem is that your “integration” model kills identities. That is not a good thing.
I am happy you use the word “integration” not “assimilation, acculturation” when speaking about how much foreigners should adapt to Finland.
Is this a change of opinion?
Tiwaz
November 24, 2008
No, integration means assimilation. Integration without obeying local cultural norms is not integration. It is mere citizenship fishing. And that is failure. Integration must never result in minorities and divisions formed in society where none are.
Alien from Middle East
November 27, 2008
I simply don’t give a F.. about Finnish norms. Up yours be my guest. I took the most out of Finland and said Adio. I bought a beautiful house and living some where whose natives see farther than their tip of their noses.
I also understand some people like Tiwaz and their hatred toward us. May be a bad memory, may his wife falled in love with some dark skin guy who was better in bed. So I guess I should understand their hatred. But change is some thing hits your door some day. May not voluntarily but a MUST do.
Some wise guy say never say never and I believe so. What if half of UK goes under water in 50 years and UN orders Finland that you have too much land and you should take 2 millions. Or a better case, Bangladesh with millions of people and Finland should place 5 million of them. Then we should really see the face of Tiwaz and other hard ass people. It would be some thing to see that who assimilate to what. They become Fin or you become Bangladesh
. In a culture that hardly say hello to each other, I wont bet on Fins. 
Enrique
November 27, 2008
Tiwaz, there is a difference between integration and assimilation. Look it up.
Enrique
November 27, 2008
Hi Alien from Middle East, I hope you are enjoying yourself. It is a good thing to move out of Finland and then return if you wish. Every ten years I move to work outside Finland. It is a great experience.
I don’t know if I agree with you about Tiwaz. He is only an obstinate in his opinion. He is not a lost case, however.
Alien from Middle East
November 27, 2008
Thank you dear Enrique for this nice effort and great job you are putting down with this site. About Finland I should say that it is a beautiful country. I personally coming from a cultural back ground which adores beauty and art. I have learned to be fair and have courage to admit into the truths. Therefore I appreciate the good things in every country including Finland.
During my stay I have never tried to change Finnish culture. I have always kept distance not to make Fins uncomfortable. The only thing that molest people in general and foreigners in particular, is a break which hold people from being happy. This break is working much stronger for foreigners.
Yes it is true that Fins having a social security system and this is very good in comparison with many countries, but I doubt if Fins are truly happy. This people hardly laugh from their bottom of their heart. They hardly able to express themselves. They have a low self esteem. They are not so friendly within themselves even and if they are, they have a very strange way to show it. In their view, all foreigners are guilty unless proven not. So I can talk for hours about this. It is these things that give a very bad image from Finland.
Most Fins think that foreigners live on social benefits. But I was working in Finland since 97. Some months I have paid more than 2500 euros tax, which is 7-8 times of the social allowance.
Fins have right to think however they want, but there is a world outside their imagination. In a world of constant change, one should be very ignorant to resist change. A culture, a society or any entity if does not change according to conditions, is doom to be diminished and extinguished. This is what the politicians see, because they see the rest of the world. however they are not willing to theorize it and explain it for the people. because next step is give their place to some one more capable. They dont want this. So they make a phenomenon such as Somalian phenomena. This way they can justify their way in how discriminatory treat immigrants and at the same time to make Fins feel better about themselves. Some of these Politicians were people like Finnish Foreign Minister Ilkka Kanerva who was fulfilling his sexual needs with the money of tax payers.
Either Fins learn to change, or they will learn the change. This is their only way. Resisting against this makes change happen later, but more painful. Finland should think macro and not micro if they want to survive. They need many immigrants in next 30 years. This population is too old. Among their new generation there is only a few who will become an specialist and actually making things. The rest are consuming and they can be used in service section. Bringing only a few Indian will not fully help them. These Indians after a few years in Nokia, leave Finland if they are treated upon their race and culture and law does not endorse them. This will be another loss.
So open up Finland.
Enrique
November 27, 2008
Alien from Middle East, many thanks for your comments. If we are sincere with each other, I believe we all have a sentimental bond with this country. The things you mention about the Finns may be true in some but it is a part of their culture.
I, personally, think that Finland would be a near-perfect society from my point of view if some people were not so suspicious and reticent of people who are not like them. Discrimination is a social ill and has no place in a society like Finland. Unfortunately, I think many Finns do not have a clue about diversity and how positive it can be.
I am pretty certain that people like yourself work long hours to make a living. If some Finns would know, they’d understand that foreigners/immigrants are very hard workers and ambitious. And, an immigrant has to, because he must be twice as good as a Finn in many sectors to compete.
Tiwaz
November 28, 2008
Alien, you are wrong. There is also alternative.
Read history, we have lots of text on how natives who resent others pushing into their land react to attempts of forced entry.
It is called war. And Finns, fortunately, are not unarmed savages. If it did take place that some people tried to flood Finland, you can bet they have soon 2 options.
Integrate and act according to Finnish culture.
Or die.
That is human nature. We defend what is ours. You want to take it, prepare for a fight. And Finns know how to fight. Enrique will again get a stroke, but that is truth. Read history. Humans have not changed a bit. UN cannot make Finns accept foreigners no matter what flooding takes place elsewhere. Finns will first get annoyed, then angry (along with rest of nations who are attempted to be forced to accept refugees who refuse to integrate and assimilate) and then there is violence. And not just in Finland. But everywhere. No society will accept such flood and not turn against it violently.
As for learning. You foreigners should learn from Finns. What I see abroad is so much empty words, useless gestures and basically lack of true happiness in form of being content with your life. You people are so miserable that you have to put up facades of happiness and friendship because else your true misery would show.
Finn does not need those. Finn is secure in his identity, content with his life. He will not laugh and act like Italian. Because unlike Italian, Finn has no need. Finn is happy.
Your issue, Alien, is that Finns didn’t act like people on your native country. So now you whine how Finns are evil, when it was you who failed to understand that you are no longer in Middle East. Classical immigrant stupidity.
You expect Finland to be like your hole in sand, but when it is you complain about it and whine how Finns must be so sad because they are not like people of your native country.
And fail to see the true happiness of Finns.
Enrique
November 28, 2008
Tiwaz, are you serious? If you said it with your own name I would believe you, but not as a peeping tom. Nobody can take you seriously when you threaten others.
–And fail to see the true happiness of Finns.
Well in all honesty, you don’t paint a very optimistic picture with your words.
Tiwaz
November 28, 2008
So, my real name is Matti Veijola. Happy now?
Or is it… Oh dear. Perhaps I value my privacy and right to privacy. Not to have lunatics like you trying to look after my personal information to bother me and my family in my home. Because we both know your kind of lunatics do practice it.
It is alien who makes threats. That Finland is invaded and native culture killed off. Like it was done in Argentina. We, natives, refuse to go without a fight. It is not threat, it is reality.
And you fail to grasp that happiness is not absolute. There are definitions of happiness. When I am most happy, I do not feel need to get cramp to my face muscles. I just enjoy the blissfull feeling. And no, I do not smile.
Enrique
November 28, 2008
When you go around threatening people with death, or some horrific and demented “white power” race war, it is SO easy when you do it anonymously. It is a bit like confessing everything about yourself to a psychiatrist. It is a bit like having a split personality: anonymously I am an “ultra-nationalist” by in real life I am well-behaved and measure my words carefully. I have a good hunch that you are a person that writes comments in this blog with another name.
If we have a name and identity, we weigh better what we say. It is like the idiots watching a peep show in a booth. It is anonymous, nobody cares, and you are free to do what your please (with yourself).
A fin
November 28, 2008
You do understand that you are being culturally intolerant by demanding a change in finnish culture? You do understand that there are about 100 finns for every foreigner? So to accomodate one foreigner 100 finns should change the way they interact with strangers, personal space, demand shopservice etc….
Many cultural things in finnish culture go in the complete opposite of other cultures. Im not claiming that there aren’t racist in Finland. There aren’t a country where there aren’t any. It just is that finnish culture and idioms are so different from most cultures that they might seem impolite, even hostile.
The personal space is a hard one. In Finland it’s polite to give people space, as mutch as is available. Arabic countries have a culture of getting close and it’s impolite to keep distance, not sure how it is in others. In Finland personal space is probably the largest of all cultures. That 1.5m is about right in a bus. That’s why when bus fills up it starts from every other window seat, and lastly isle seats. But on a street it’s more, about 3-10 meter’s depending on how crowded it is. On a nearly empty street it’even more. A doctor’s waiting room fills from far ends and egual spaced then on. There was a mention of elevators and not getting on. If its a small elevator, seats about 4, and not heavy traffic on it, it’s polite to get next one even if there’s only one person in it. The list goes on and on.
When shopping if you don’t get service you aren’t being insulted. Most finns prefer it that way. We ask if we need assistance. A service person might come to ask if you need help but yo need to look really lost for it. Too pushy service hurts sales.
Talking to strangers on streets. Don’t. If you see a finn to talk on street to many people he’s probably crazy. So if you do it you will probably be labeled somewhat crazy too.
Eyecontactact on busses etc. Definite nono. In public you dont acknowledge strangers. You give them room but you act like they don’t exist. This manifest best in busses. People don’t usually ask to get off from window seat. They are given room just from the way they start to move when stop comes close.
These are just a few of the things in finnish culture that go completely opposite of the most cultures. It might look impolite or racist to people from other cultures but we are grown fond of it. By demanding a change in these and many more you are being culturally intolerant.
Enrique
November 28, 2008
Hi Fin, thank you for dropping by. Thanks for your views on space in Finnish culture. For some this may be something new.
I do not think that any sensible person is asking Finnish culture to change. When they move to Finland they have a rough idea, or should have, about the type of country they are moving to. I think the best thing is allow cultural bygones be cultural bygones. But if I did business or had a group of friends from another culture, it would be intelligent to find out something about them in order that we do not stick our foot in out mouth. How well you learn this will help you succeed in the society you live and work.
It is really not that complicated. Very easy.
A fin
November 28, 2008
Enrique Says:
“I, personally, think that Finland would be a near-perfect society from my point of view if some people were not so suspicious and reticent of people who are not like them.”
“I do not think that any sensible person is asking Finnish culture to change. ”
There you have a missundeerstanding of finnish culture and ask it to change. You think incorrectly it’s becouse your different from them. That applys to everybody. If somebody from Rovaniemi moves to Helsinki and lives there for 20 years, people of helsinki don’t consider him as a people of helsinki. It takes a long time for somebody to be considered a local even from moving inside country, possibly a generation.
The biggest problem with what you write is that you say we are reticent and suspicious of people different from us, but don’t say how it manifest itself.
Here I have to guess that it’s becouse you don’t have interaction with neighbors. Well, most finns don’t, most don’t know their names or what they look like. It’s part of the culture.
Enrique
November 28, 2008
You pose an interesting question that highlights something more general and deep about this society. True, the person from Rovaniemi may never be accepted as a Helsinkian (maybe he doesn’t want to). Even though he is from Rovaniemi is is treated as “a Finn from such a city.” If he lives in Helsinki, it means he is well-adapted; he has a job, pays a mortgage, taxes and fits in.
With a foreigner it is a bit different. In first place some are not even accepted as a member of this society; too many are unemployed and on welfare. We have spoken before in this blog about the causes behind the high 20-percent unemployment as we almost had in the early 1990s, remember? As long as people don’t have work they will not be part of Finnish or any society. If I were to start, I would work on this aspect, or at least bring down unemployment among foreigners to 10 percent.
What do you think?
A fin
November 28, 2008
As theres structural unemployment with finnish born, dont you think that some of this can be structural unenmployment with immigrants? Studies that show with increased stay in the country the unemployment goes down, This points that there is some thuth in saying the immigrant unemployment largely is structural. With time language skills better and education too. In Norge the immigrant unemployment rate is 3 times higher that the unemployment rate of the country as a whole so the immigrant unemployment isn’t uniquelly a finnish problem.
Enrique
November 29, 2008
–As theres structural unemployment with finnish born, dont you think that some of this can be structural unenmployment with immigrants?
You are right. There is something wrong with Finland’s labor markets — they are too inflexible and create a system of people with permanent and temporary jobs. Even though Finland has not sought qualified labor very forcefully, you pose a good question. Maybe the problem in Finland is that since “all of our work is important”, which it is, we create dumb obstacles. For example, having to take one or two years schooling to become a janitor. One matter is for sure: Finland’s labor market are not dynamic. They promote little work mobility and, therefore, create this structural unemployment.
That is a good point about Norway’s immigrant unemployment problem. It probably shows a similar structural problem. But, as you know, it is always easy to find excuses than effective solutions to the problem.
I would take a radical stance: no effective employment do not ask foreigners/EU nationals to move to Finland. Or be warned: landing a permanent job with Finnish benefits is the exception rather than the rule.
Unemployment in society is a disgrace. Politicians and policy makers cover it up and wash their hands of the problem with social welfare. It is a lose-lose situation.
Tiwaz
November 29, 2008
-With a foreigner it is a bit different. In first place some are not even accepted as a member of this society; too many are unemployed and on welfare. We have spoken before in this blog about the causes behind the high 20-percent unemployment as we almost had in the early 1990s, remember? As long as people don’t have work they will not be part of Finnish or any society. If I were to start, I would work on this aspect, or at least bring down unemployment among foreigners to 10 percent.
What do you think?
This is easy! Or would be if you were not so stupid at demanding Finns to accept foreigners. LEARN HOW TO ACT IN FINLAND.
There is very little unemployment in ranks of foreigners who went through integration. Learned how to speak the language, how to act properly in Finnish culture. They present themselves as integrated foreigners. So every employer has reason to presume that they know how to act in workplace without annoying the hell out of everyone.
But then we have this 20% of idiots who think they should get job without putting any effort at adjusting to society around them. They should not be pampered. It is their choice not to put work towards learning to act properly in Finland, not to show off miles away how they cannot fit in the group.
Because why would Finn hire someone into work who will disrupt the working conditions? Only idiot hires someone who causes more problems than his work is worth. That is why there are interviews, to see how person fits in the work community. Foreigners just do not fit in, they repeatedly cause cultural conflicts. It does not matter how much Finns understand it. We know you come from different culture. But it still annoys us when you break things like privacy zone. It makes us feel uncomfortable. We understand it, but we do not accept it. We tolerate it for a time, but if you keep doing it day after day…
It becomes annoying. That is why guy who does not fit in the work community is not hired, or finds himself resigning soon. Same is true for Finns, but they know how culture works because they were born to it. So they know how NOT to act.
This is only small example of cultural conflict caused by cultural differences. It is duty of immigrant to learn to behave in a way that does not cause conflict. If they do not, if they insist on this multicultural impossibility, they will become division. And as we have seen in history, divisions breed violence.
Enrique
November 29, 2008
–This is easy! Or would be if you were not so stupid at demanding Finns to accept foreigners. LEARN HOW TO ACT IN FINLAND.
Hey, can we refrain from getting personal? I think foreigners try that all the time. The foreigners and the Finns need to build more bridges of cultural understanding.
–But then we have this 20% of idiots who think they should get job without putting any effort at adjusting to society around them.
OK, in your way of thinking the 20% unemployed are “idiots.” Were the almost 20% unemployed Finns in the early 1990w “idiots?” I guess so. And what about the 6% that are unemployed today. Are they idiots too?
–This is only small example of cultural conflict caused by cultural differences. It is duty of immigrant to learn to behave in a way that does not cause conflict.
I believe in the labor market it is important to integrate. Anything outside of that is my private business and a matter of conversation.
elGreco
November 30, 2008
If a person is discriminated against it because of his looks, skin or hair color it’s racism. If a person is discriminated because of his ethnic origin, He might be a German or a Serb who looks like a Fin or almost like a Fin then it is discrimination because of his ethnic origin. The difference is, when you look different you can be isolated and separated more easily. I am not here to waste my time with Finnish racists or Finns who discriminate against people based mainly on the fact that those people aren’t Fins. Discrimination is as old as Finland itself. I remember the hate towards foreigners in 78 and after that and Finland had only 20.000 foreigners and there was not the excuse of LAMA or depression which come in 93. To hate and to discriminate is Finnish culture ( just kidding )
In my 14 years living in Germany I was not one single time insulted by Germans for being a foreigner. It was back in the 60′s and 70′s. There are Fins who will not discriminate against foreigners on the base that they are foreigners but they are a minority among the Fins. According to the Finnish radio only 18% of the Fins have generally a positive opinion about foreigners. So I throw my lot with every 6th Fin and try to avoid the other 5/6 as good as I can. One out of 6 aren’t that bad.
Enrique
November 30, 2008
Hi elGreco, interesting points you point out. I remember back in the late-1970s how draconian Finland’s immigrant laws. Remember Eila Kännö? What a woman… That era, 1939-1995, is when Finland closed itself to the world. This was imposed by the Soviet Union and the whole effort of those years was to reintegrate politically and economically with Western Europe.
There have not been many studies on racism or racial attitudes in Finland before 1939, some of the attitudes and comments of Finns is quite remarkable when it comes to people from other cultures. They can insult you as if it were the normalest thing in the world. But let’s be fair, things are moving towards a better direction than from those terrible years, when a foreigner was as rare as a Finn on the moon.
elGreco
November 30, 2008
A few comments of my about Finnish culture but in a funny way:
Fins eat more often pizza then Italians. Met some years back an Italian who was amazed at the amounts of Pizzeria here.
Fins eat more bananas then anybody else in Europe ( bananas don’t grow in Finland )
Fins drink more coffee then anybody else on this planet ( coffee don’t grow in Finland )
“Karjalaan piiraka” made with the rice grown in Finland?
You can hear more English songs coming from the Finnish radio then English songs in England.
To the foreigners on this board:
Happy people ( talking about most Fins on this board ) don’t talk like that.
Don’t permit yourself to become like them ( again, not all Fins are people who feel more hate then love in their hearts but to many do so )
Work together with the positive Fins and positive foreigners.
Negativity can drag you down as can a bitter reality.
It’s just a waste of energy which could be used for something positive.
Be happy even if the sun don’t shine ( sometimes it does shine)
I had once a conversation with an Eesti friend of my.
She said the following:
Those are the typical characteristics of most Fins:
Envy
High expectations and therefore failure
Low self confidence
===========================
Back to the Finnish radio:
The average Fin has 1-2 friends and gets 2 visits per year
=================================================
Those are my observations: Friendship is built during the years they go to school or study. Later friendship might be established at the work place or in a group they belong. Like a group of people interested in dancing particular dances etc.
Most friendship anyway develop during school or studies.
So even for Fins it is difficult to get friends.
The bars here in Finland are for getting drunk NOT for being social.
That comment was made by an Irish friend of my.
So the problem is twofold.
Discrimination ( and that applies to people not to food, music or stuff)
and isolation.
Most Fins are isolated with hardly any social contacts and they like it ( or at least say so). Don’t know if there is a connection between being lonely, depression and alcoholism.
I was married to a Fin for 20 years and my kids ( I have 3 ) were born and raised in Finland. So don’t tell me I don’t know the mentality.
Critic is seeing as a very negative thing by most Fins and indeed it is a negative thing in most countries that are not democratic.
I also find it funny that when under pressure some Fins then compare the bad stuff in Finland with the bad stuff in some other country that is in a worse position.
Finland should be compared to other EU countries and/or Scandinavian countries.
I won’t debate with haters
Have a nice time
Enrique
November 30, 2008
el greco many thanks for some good advice. When you talk about pizza, about 40 years ago many Finns did not know what was a pizza. If there is multiculturalism that has come to this country it is in the form of food.
It is interesting thing you say about critique. In other countries such as the US it is very normal. Critique is good because it opens new questions that seek new answers.
All very interesting stuff you point out. It would be interesting to hear people comment on your thoughts which that been formulated after living many years in this country.
There are all types of Finns. I for example, need to live abroad a couple of years every decade in order to recharge my cultural batteries and get a different slant on things. That has been my solution to finding a balance between Finland and my own diverse cultural background.
Enrique
November 30, 2008
Some of the comments, especially those that see foreigners as a threat because these Finns believe they have to be nice, shows in my opinion low self-esteem. In order to feel stronger from one’s low view of oneself it is always easier to pick on people who are weaker than yourself. Even so, I believe much of the debate on foreigners in Finland has to do with a very generous quantity of not having a clue about the topic.
The way that I have been educated and brought up (parents and society) is that racism is a social ill and multiculturalism is a positive matter. Immigrants are tough industrious people. They have a lot of ambition and are not afraid to start life from scratch. Now that takes a lot of guts!
Tiwaz
December 1, 2008
-The way that I have been educated and brought up (parents and society) is that racism is a social ill and multiculturalism is a positive matter. Immigrants are tough industrious people. They have a lot of ambition and are not afraid to start life from scratch. Now that takes a lot of guts!
Then perhaps you should spend some time learning facts of multiculturalism.
Multicultural Rwanda. 800 000 – 1 000 000 dead.
Multicultural Yugoslavia. Bosnia area 102 000 dead.
Multicultural Iraq. Currently over 100 000 dead at least.
Multicultural India. Unknown, plenty of various conflicts, skirmishes and terror attacks.
Monocultural Finland. No internal conflict.
Monocultural Japan. No internal conflict.
Multiculturalism is not good, it is plague upon society. Look at your beloved multicultralism with critical eye Enrique. It is a failure. I do not want to import that failure even if you are too s***** or blind to see multiculturalism as a failure it is.
If foreigners want to succeed in Finland, they have to do what foreigners everywhere have to do. Get over their own arrogance and adjust to conditions around them. Not expect country they moved into to somehow adjust to them.
Tiwaz
December 1, 2008
elGreco. Let me guess…
Youwere mistreated because you did not get a job in Finland and people do not act like they did back at home?
I’m perfectly correct I guess…
At which phase, greco, you thought that someone would find use for someone like you? You do not speak the language, you disrupt the work community with incorrect behavior…
What kind of employer would employ someone who is more trouble than worth?
Of course, instead of being critical about your own exellence, you come up with this theory of racism and speak to other no-speak immigrants to reinforce your excellent conclusion.
Could it be that this 82% of Finns who have bad opinion about foreigners are ones who have had bad experiences of them?
You know, who see, hear and read about whining foreigners. Demanding more and more things. G****** women in dark parks.
That kind of stuff easily turns people against foreigners.
And in same sense, you lack grasp of Finnish culture. Here honesty and straight talk are valued.
Not this foreign beating around bush and never getting to point. Enrique here complains that we insult him. Well, if I see him present i**** opinions little research and critical thinking would solve. I call him i****. I call spade a spade and not for example dirt movement device.
There is no malice involved. I do not hate Enrique. But I do strongly dislike the future he tries to build for Finland. One of conflict and civil war. We had that once already. No need to build another by replacing reds of civil war with unintegrating foreigners for next war.
Enrique
December 1, 2008
I think elGreco made some valid points. I have a suggestion: set up a anti-immigration party, bitch like hell, demand Finland leaves the EU and reinstates Eila Kännö as head of the “Aliens Office.” In order to find your meaning, go to the “white power” websites in the US or Europe and sharpen up your agenda. That is your destiny.
Enrique
December 1, 2008
–Multicultural Rwanda. 800 000 – 1 000 000 dead.
Multicultural Yugoslavia. Bosnia area 102 000 dead.
Multicultural Iraq. Currently over 100 000 dead at least.
Multicultural India. Unknown, plenty of various conflicts, skirmishes and terror attacks.
Monocultural Finland. No internal conflict.
Monocultural Japan. No internal conflict.
You should read history. Rwanda and Yugoslavia are fictitious states created by “MONOCULTURAL” Europeans.
Despite india’s problems, it is an example if you consider over 100 languages are spoken there.
Finland is NOT “monocultural.” Your views on countries and peoples sounds like a geography class from the 1950s.
shopnil
December 1, 2008
i am living in finland more then 7 years! its like a hell to live in finland as a foreigner!
one of the most racist country in the world is finland! i am suffering here! i am trying my best to move from this shit country!
Enrique
December 2, 2008
Hi shopnil for your new comment. I am saddened to hear that your stay in Finland has not turned out well. Some of us still continue to feel a sort of “culture shock” many years after we have moved to this country. This shock is made worse if we find it very difficult to get a job. What would I suggest? The last thing I would do is lose hope. The Muslims have a good saying, which applies to people, but could apply to a bad situation as well: “Nothing bad lasts a hundred years.” One solution is moving to another country. Such a decision hinges on whether you believe life can be better. However, we may have family ties in this country that keep us here. You are faced with difficult — not impossible — decisions but I am certain you will find the right answer for you.
elGreco
December 2, 2008
shopnil Says: I agree with you. Finland is to my own experience the most racist country I have ever been. I am at the moment fighting racist criminal cops.
Made a litle video on Youtube. User PsychopathSean
Click on the link of the 00server web page. There you can read my story of being stalked by a) a racist stalker from London and b) how the police in Turku did their best to ignore him but blame me for all his racist posts and insults. He made an audio file claiming to be me and threaten to kill my ex and beat her boyfriend up. All users in my Usenet group were telling who the poster was but not him but I was arrested. It is not my voice and for 10 months the police was lying that they can’t run voice recognition on that. 10 months later AFTER they received a phone call from the London police who then had arrested the troll they HAD voice recognition software but in Vanta. The result come later from Vanta claiming that my voice and the murder threats audio had the same accent which was a lie and a crime if voice recognition experts lie about their findings. Then they could not come to a conclusion if the audio was made by me because of it’s ” bad” quality which was one other lie because even from the voice from a mobile phone the person can be pontificated and the quality on that audio was better then that. Then they concluded that while they could not say if it was my voice it was still possible on a later time to charge me. Then the police on court said that I ” must have used some software to change my voice beyond recognition ” and the court concluded that it is my voice.
THEN: The racist stalker used AOL-UK and Finland has no AOL internet and I live in Finland so the cop said that I must ” have faked my IP” number. He didn’t knew how it could be done and how I did it but this how I must have done it.
By the way: You cant post through google groups if you have a fake IP number
The poster who posted via AOL-UK also used a registered domains email address and the domain was registered by Sean Ruittledge. The same person that made the audio file. The same person who lives in London and that person I pointed out to the police on October 2006 and in March 2007 and many other Usenet posters did the same thing. I asked the police on March 2007 to run a voice recognition on Sean Ruttledge but they never did. Instead they rather turn a non proof in to a proof.
Did I mention that I was in jail when the same AOL-UK poster posted 3 messages to Usenet. Should that not proof my innocence?
Far from it. The cops in Finl;and are not bothered by facts nor the worlds best alibi.
“It must be me, it can’t be anybody else”. Those magic words are better then no way to post with a faked IP address or running voice recognition on the guy 10 other people have pointed out as the guilty one because they know him since 2002.
Also his English is perfect and I make many mistakes.
They have been in my house without a search warrant and keep my art work and passwords since March 2007
Ombudsman? Forget it. Just got crap from them all the time
elGreco
December 2, 2008
Then I remeber the Iranian who studied in Finland computer technology and can’t get the Finnish citizenship because the Finnish Gestapo has some secret information about him that is so secret that they can’t reveal it even to the judge and the Fins argued that everything is right so. The example given was a Fin who was spying for the DDR but the reasons there could rather be government involvement and heads of Finnish politicians could have been rolling but how they treat an Iranian is again a clear case of discrimination with the victim being as usually the suspect. There must be a reason why so many Fins don’t trust foreigners. Blame the foreigners for it.
Other excuses are the Lama or depression Finland had. I was in Finland BEFORE lama or the depression and that time Finland had only 20.000 foreigner but I was insulted and told to go back to my home country about every second time I went to a bar. I have spend 13 years in Germany and not one single times did Germans tell me to go back to my home country. I left Germany in 74
No, Fins are funny. They think everybody else must be an idiot or Finland is the only country in the world. On a scale of 1-10 Finland is not the most racist but it’s among the top.
better then Saudi Arabia but I am not from Saudi Arabia
elGreco
December 2, 2008
Most dead Iraqis are a result of the bombings or there after.
During the from the US enforced boycott of Iraq about half million children died.
Since the fall of the Taliban in Afghanistan the opium production went 30-40 up.
The 911 had US government involvement
Now from Noam Chomsky:
If the USA would stop terrorist acts or stop supporting terrorists the world would have 80% less terrorism.
Consider the world’s largest
democracy, India. The chief minister of Uttar Pradesh, which is larger
than all but a few countries of the world and is notorious for
horrifying treatment of women, is not only a woman, but a Dalit
(“untouchable”), at the lowest rung of India’s disgraceful caste system.
Linda
December 3, 2008
Hi Alat Katin,
I beleive it is quite ok to come to Finland and study. As you have read on this postings…finns are not the most communicative people on earth but they certainly don’t bother you. You might even end up making life long trustworthy finnish friends.
There is racism in Finland – big time!. There is no denial… and everything that is written here regarding racism isfor the most part true. However, I had a friend in Med school in Finland and she didn’t experience any out right prejuduce neither from her peers nor the faculty staff. Therefore, rest assured, once you get through the cultural differences, home sickness, and what not you will manage to go through you schooling without having to face unsurmountable challenges.
The aparthied is in the job market, it is very difficult for foreigners to achieve their full potential. however much you contribute to the firm – it is not recognised. Your mistakes are exagerated etc….
I hope you will have a good time in Finalnd if and when you come…also remember experiences are subjective…so, come here and see for yourself.
Cheers,
Linda
December 3, 2008
Dear Tiwaz,
You repeatedly say that foreigners disrupt the work environment. Could you please tell me how they do it? do they start dancing and singing wearing leaves while others work? please elaborate your remark. I am confused!
Moreover, do you really beleive that Finns excel in what ever they do? do you also beleive that all foreingers don’t speak the language and are less skilled?
also, could you please define finnish culture for me? I heard the proximity bit but it does not cut it. i am not a finn but i do appreciate my personal space as well… I don’t know my neighbours nor do I make an effort to know them, i don’t want to sit next to anyone in public transports … i love annonimity…do I qualify as a Finn because i have the same characteristics? Will i get employed if I promise not to disrupt the work environment?
really confused!
Tiwaz
December 3, 2008
-You repeatedly say that foreigners disrupt the work environment. Could you please tell me how they do it? do they start dancing and singing wearing leaves while others work? please elaborate your remark. I am confused!
Cultural conflict. Have you ever noticed that people of different cultures have different way of doing same things? Or acting differently?
They disrupt the work enviroment by simply acting in way which is at odds with how work enviroment works in Finland. If things are done in one way here, and you insist on doing it differently it can be very disruptive to working conditions as unnecessary effort and work goes to sorting out the mess caused by two different ways of doing same thing.
It happens between Finns too, but when someone with totally different cultural background comes and does things even more differently it is a mess.
-Moreover, do you really beleive that Finns excel in what ever they do? do you also beleive that all foreingers don’t speak the language and are less skilled?
Have I said that? Do you think that their skills or lack of them somehow should make them so holy and precious that they do not have to respect language and culture of society they moved into?
If they cannot speak the language, worth of their skills is reduced because they have other handicaps. Language and culture! And they are too stupid or arrogant to understand that.
If your working enviroment speaks Finnish, how much good are your skills, or lack of them, if you cannot use them in Finnish?
-also, could you please define finnish culture for me? I heard the proximity bit but it does not cut it. i am not a finn but i do appreciate my personal space as well… I don’t know my neighbours nor do I make an effort to know them, i don’t want to sit next to anyone in public transports … i love annonimity…do I qualify as a Finn because i have the same characteristics? Will i get employed if I promise not to disrupt the work environment?
How about you defining your culture to me. It should give you little experience on how complex cultural influence is.
I notice you too started to preach about racism without grasping the actual issue. Here is quote from you Linda.
There is far less racism by Finns in Finland than you try to claim. There is, however, racism by immigrants which is rampant. Refusal to learn Finnish way of doing things, Finnish way of interaction. Because of immigrants refuse to learn those, they fail repeatedly in the most basic acts of interpretating actions and words. And when they fail, they scream racism. Because they failed to adjust their thinking to new enviroment.
Immigrants appear to be biggest racists in Finland.
Enrique
December 3, 2008
–Cultural conflict. Have you ever noticed that people of different cultures have different way of doing same things? Or acting differently?
One thing that is incredible about your arguments is how much effort you put in to showing how different people are from the Finns. If you are fair, the differences are in between in your ears. The big difference with your argument and mine is that you blame everything on multiculturalism, when, in fact, a society may have deficiencies to handle people from other cultures. Why is it important? Because we want to achieve a person´s full potential in society; it is cheaper and more effective than paying social welfare, which is only another way for politicians and policy makers to wash their hands of the problem.
Linda asks a good question: What is Finnish culture? I can tell you that it is no exclusive club living in a museum in a machine where time does not move forward. Finns were culturally different in the early 20th century when compared with today.
Why? Because culture, attitudes and values change.
Tiwaz
December 3, 2008
-One thing that is incredible about your arguments is how much effort you put in to showing how different people are from the Finns. If you are fair, the differences are in between in your ears. The big difference with your argument and mine is that you blame everything on multiculturalism, when, in fact, a society may have deficiencies to handle people from other cultures. Why is it important? Because we want to achieve a person´s full potential in society; it is cheaper and more effective than paying social welfare, which is only another way for politicians and policy makers to wash their hands of the problem.
You mean we are all alike and all that jizzz… So WHY IS THERE CONFLICT IN THE WORLD IF WE ARE SO ALIKE?
WHY EVERYWHERE WHERE YOU HAVE MULTIPLE CULTURES INHABITING SAME AREA WE SEE THEM FIGHT?
MULTICULTURALISM DOES NOT WORK!
See, it is that simple, I wrote it in big, plain letters for you to finally grasp it. If multiculturalism was possible, it would have worked already. Everyone knows it has been tried in one form or another enough times when different cultures have met. Except…
It has never worked. Conflict comes and either one side is wiped out or subjected to rule of another.
That is why it is essential that immigrants are made to integrate into Finnish society. To ensure that there are no divisions which will cause those conflicts. It is in interests of Finns, but above all else it is in interests of immigrants. Because they are the losing side if conflict is permitted to start.
And only part where you make sense is that culture changes. Yes, it does. But it does so very slowly, very gradually and ONLY ACCORDING TO DESIRES OF NATIVES. If natives, those who define the culture through their actions and values, do not want some change. It will not take place, no matter how much idiotic foreigners whine that things are not like at home.
And apparently you and Linda think you are so clever with your “what is Finnish culture”-question.
I’ll answer your question once you have given me complete and thorough analysis on what YOUR culture is like. Point by point.
If you think it is so easy to put culture into few bullet points, it should not be great task for you.
Answer, Finnish culture is what Finns (this again is not same as citizen of Finland) find collectively as their preferred way to act, their core values and so forth.
Calculator Man
December 3, 2008
Australia, USA, Canada are full of Foreigners.
1.4 Mio Finns left Finland in the last 150 years/160000 Immigrants live in Finland.
For every Foreigner who is getting into Finland, 10 Finns left Finland
Enrique
December 3, 2008
Hi Calculator Man, welcome to Migrant Tales and thank you for sharing your mathematical knowledge. That is one way of looking ab immigration and emigration.
Alien from Middle East
December 4, 2008
[Finnish Immigration Policy faces new challenges]
Tapio Wallenius
http://www.etla.fi/files/936_FES_01_2_immigration.pdf
This is a good study done by a study group in Finland. I recommend it to all hard ass Finns, to read it. You will find out why you should treat us as an important and beneficial asset in your country. Enjoy it
Tiwaz
December 5, 2008
And Australia, USA and Canada are places where I would never want to live. They are unstable, unsafe and heading straight to hell.
Thanks to unintegrating immigrants.
I’m waiting for your analysis on your own culture Enrique. It can’t be that hard after all. Just few bullet points and you have thoroughly explained your own culture.
Linda
December 6, 2008
Hi Tiwaz,
-Cultural conflict. Have you ever noticed that people of different cultures have different way of doing same things? Or acting differently?
Yes, I have noticed that people from different social backgrounds, different towns, even siblings from the same family perform the same task in their own individual ways also.
For your information, large companies have an organization culture that clearly describes business policy, manner of communication, etc…Therefore; it is hard to believe that immigrants simply ignore the conditions.
-How about you defining your culture to me. It should give you little experience on how complex cultural influence is.
I believe in Hoffsteds theory of culture, that “Culture is a collective programming of the mind that distinguishes the members of one group or category of people from another.” I have also accepted the notion that it is socially transmitted and can be relearned. I believe we have been conditioned to think in a certain way, do things in a certain manner etc…but I don’t let my cultural conditioning influence my perceptions of others – I know that it is not the absolute truth.
Unlike you, I don’t believe that total assimilation into the prevailing culture should be a prerequisite to be accepted; instead, all communities learn to co-exist, respect each other, and be critical of one-self and open. None of us posses a cultural high ground – we can learn from each other.
-There is far less racism by Finns in Finland than you try to claim. There is, however, racism by immigrants which is rampant.
I never attempted to generalize the whole Finnish population as racists. As in any society, Finns have their good, their bad and their ugly.
-Refusal to learn Finnish way of doing things, Finnish way of interaction. Because of immigrants refuse to learn those, they fail repeatedly in the most basic acts of interpretating actions and words. And when they fail, they scream racism. Because they failed to adjust their thinking to new enviroment.
All immigrants are not born equal…you can not condemn the entire immigrant population because some might have refused to learn or were not able to learn the language. But I doubt that anyone that immigrates to another country with the intention of working will ever refuse to learn the language.
-Immigrants appear to be biggest racists in Finland.
We have to make a distinction between resentment and racism. Most minorities have made humongous efforts to learn the language, accustom themselves to the culture, getting a Finnish qualification and what not. But what they get in return is social exclusion, institutional racism, never ending unemployment and system dependency.
Therefore, they resent the people that have reduced their value. The resentment has nothing to do with the cultural difference or the color of one’s skin.
Indeed, there are cultural differences, but we have much more in common – we all have the need to contribute, self actualize and also affiliate. But these dreams or needs don’t get realized if one is socially excluded and undermined every step of the way.
Cheers,
Enrique
December 6, 2008
Linda, I think you bring some very good questions into discussion. Some people exaggerate differences
in order to strengthen their their identity. What would happen to these people if culture was
only a tool help us function effectively in society and we would be able to travel in many cultures; that is, be
“seasoned cultural travelers?” What about if we used our culture to show that diversity is beautiful since
people, like cultures,have imagination and do things differently?
Enrique
December 6, 2008
–I’m waiting for your analysis on your own culture Enrique. It can’t be that hard after all. Just few bullet points and you have thoroughly explained your own culture.
Yes, you are right. You are such an enlightened “cultured” person. But look around you, things have changed. It is time to wake up and bring youself up to date.
Enrique
December 6, 2008
This is a very good article showing the problem. There are other views that show that the labor shortage in 2020 will be 2 million (Ministry of Finance). Thank you.
alien
December 6, 2008
Thank you Linda:
Your comments were comprehensive, intellectual though simple to understand, and it seemed to me very professional. You put it in a really good way.
Yes Indeed the differences among the majority of Finns and majority of the immigrants is really minor and negligible. But the system somehow tries to make it a big an unresolvable issue. This view is indicated in the words of people like Tiwaz and the system in Finland works based on that. Other than that, if the system would not support hiddenly and cowardly such a view, the attitude of a minor percentage of Finns against foreigners would be absolutely tolerable.
For example my case: I am labeled a threat against Finland’s security by SUPO. Alpo Rossi(politician) was also accused by SUPO of some espionage . But Alpo Rossi was discharged because there was not enough evidence against him. Me; I was condemned without SUPO needs to present one simple evidence!!!!
This is what is so scary about this country. They step on their fundamental rules and laws when the subject is a foreigner. And no body asks why our Constitution should be slaved like this.
Hey Tiwaz; this is why your grandfather fought side by side with Nazis and once you were defeated you turn backed your guns against them. So if you are really concerned about culture, you should ask yourself what makes you so principle less that you fight one day against some one and the other for them.
Integrity is an important part of a culture. Yes the problem is cultural. But the reason is not that we dance Flamingo at work and you don’t. The problem is lack of identity, and integrity that you suffer. The problem is lack of courage and guts. Your honesty is based on fear, and not realizing the importance of honesty.
I have never had any complain from my Finnish colleges that I have done some thing unusual at work. Neither any thing like that about any other foreigners. In fact most of them were amazed how prestigious and gentleman most of us(foreigners) are.
Our differences are indeed minor. The human beings values are getting closer and closer every day passed on.
Enrique
December 6, 2008
Yes, Alien, I agree. Linda made a very clear point. I could not have said it better. But you interesting comment brings and interesting question. I believe that humans and cultures are closer related to each other than they think. They have been separated especially in the last century by border, laws and education. The aim of these matters has been to stress how different as opposed to how simliar we may be. That, I think, is an important point.
Tiwaz
December 6, 2008
-Hey Tiwaz; this is why your grandfather fought side by side with Nazis and once you were defeated you turn backed your guns against them. So if you are really concerned about culture, you should ask yourself what makes you so principle less that you fight one day against some one and the other for them.
Answer to this imbecile is simple. We our priorities are…
1) Finland 2) Finland 3) Finland and so forth. Rest of the world comes somewhere around rank number 5432.
Germans were useful against Soviets, when they became more problem than asset they were dumped. We do not commit suicide because it would be convenient for some foreign fop.
-Yes, you are right. You are such an enlightened “cultured” person. But look around you, things have changed. It is time to wake up and bring youself up to date.
Stop trying to avoid the issue. Give us thorough, complete analysis on your culture as bulleting points!
-Yes, I have noticed that people from different social backgrounds, different towns, even siblings from the same family perform the same task in their own individual ways also.
For your information, large companies have an organization culture that clearly describes business policy, manner of communication, etc…Therefore; it is hard to believe that immigrants simply ignore the conditions.
Business policy and all that crap do not include method of interaction. That is essentially left to indivisuals themselves. And there is another thing you have not figured out…
MOST COMPANIES ARE NOT LARGE! Huge majority of companies, and employers, are small to mid range. Those are organisations where you have to fit in the existing community. I work in engineering office in mid-small range. Having some foreign fop around disrupting things and requiring everything to be done twice because he/she could not understand Finnish would be unnecessary trouble.
-I believe in Hoffsteds theory of culture, that “Culture is a collective programming of the mind that distinguishes the members of one group or category of people from another.” I have also accepted the notion that it is socially transmitted and can be relearned. I believe we have been conditioned to think in a certain way, do things in a certain manner etc…but I don’t let my cultural conditioning influence my perceptions of others – I know that it is not the absolute truth.
Unlike you, I don’t believe that total assimilation into the prevailing culture should be a prerequisite to be accepted; instead, all communities learn to co-exist, respect each other, and be critical of one-self and open. None of us posses a cultural high ground – we can learn from each other.
And I believe that Gulf of Finland should have oil. And that everyone should get along. And that nobody should break the laws.
What do those and your belief have in common? Exactly, they are all noble, idealisti and totally idiotic wishes which have no ground in REALITY. Yes, reality, that bitchy thing that determines what is, instead of what you wish there was.
Co-existense in harmony and respect is nice dream, but it is impossible achievement. Attempts for that result in divided society which turns against itself. Not in happy utopia of perfectness.
Again, Rwanda, Iraq, Yugoslavia, Somalia, USA, Paris riots, UK white flight, Mumbai attacks and so forth and so forth.
-All immigrants are not born equal…you can not condemn the entire immigrant population because some might have refused to learn or were not able to learn the language. But I doubt that anyone that immigrates to another country with the intention of working will ever refuse to learn the language.
Yes, I can condemn parts which refuse to put their own countrymen in check. Every time immigrants commit crime, their own community tends to clam up and tries to protect their criminal elements. It is division which causes problems.
And do you know how many immigrants start their life in Finland saying “How I get job without speaking Finnish”? When they are told that their odds are around level of snowball in hell they get all huffed up and complain racism. Why do you immigrants presume you are entitled to work without local language? And if it takes 4-5 years for you to learn… Tough luck, your problem.
Because Finnish clients do not want service in foreign languages, so employers do not hire no-speak people. Since they are liability.
-We have to make a distinction between resentment and racism. Most minorities have made humongous efforts to learn the language, accustom themselves to the culture, getting a Finnish qualification and what not. But what they get in return is social exclusion, institutional racism, never ending unemployment and system dependency.
Therefore, they resent the people that have reduced their value. The resentment has nothing to do with the cultural difference or the color of one’s skin.
Indeed, there are cultural differences, but we have much more in common – we all have the need to contribute, self actualize and also affiliate. But these dreams or needs don’t get realized if one is socially excluded and undermined every step of the way.
And this leads us again to point of them not grasping the culture they moved into.
Finns value privacy. We exclude one another. Our preference is towards small, tight groups of friends. We do not embrace the world, we prefer to have friends who are worthy to be called such, and rest are ignored.
Calculator Man
December 7, 2008
I think it is not worth to discuss with Tiwaz… he lives somewhere behind the moon. You should maybe go traveling or live in another country for a while to wake up.
Ever looked at the economic growth forecast for Finland and Australia for next year? Finland has +0.5 % while Australia has 2.0 %
Calculator Man
December 7, 2008
I was also wondering, how do you want to sell your products to other countries if you are not able to work with foreigners?
As far as I know in Nokia they communicate in English within their company.
Many companies here in Finland have their HQ in another country…so they are only Sales Offices and only require Finnish speaking people as they just want to sell their stuff.
So what is the Solution: Finnish companies should expand their business activities to other countries. However, this requires to get in contact with foreigners in order to get cash.
Enrique
December 7, 2008
Why should I go an live in another country if I had just done that? One of the last things I want to do in this blog is censor people. Tiwaz’ comments show one very narrow side of Finland.
Enrique
December 7, 2008
I think many Finnish companies understand what you are saying. In the 1980s, when Finnish companies started to expand big way outside their borders, it was pretty funny to note that they spoke of being “international” with few foreign workers. Neste was one of these. They had close to no foreign workers/engineers working in Finland. It was also a policy by them not to hire foreigners.
Tiwaz
December 7, 2008
You know, calculator, issue is not that Finns cannot respect foreign cultural norms. We can, very well actually. That is what we use when we sell our stuff abroad, we try to sell it in way that makes customer want to buy. (in which also our cultural tradition of striving for straight and clear answers instead of useless dribble works for us. Businessmen globally do not appriciate wasting their time on irrelevant crap)
Problem are you foreigners in Finland who refuse to accept that in Finland you have to sell yourself to Finns in way that makes Finns want to “buy” you.
If person trying to get a job cannot speak Finnish or interact with Finns without problems. What kind of imbecile of an employer would take them in? Nobody! It is not racism of employer or Finland or Finns, but racism of immigrants to refuse to learn how to do things in Finland the Finnish way.
And as said, Nokia is very small employer. Small to mid range companies hire huge majority of workers. And they do not have need to switch to english speaking office.
Enrique
December 7, 2008
Why do you think that when foreigners come to live, work and pay taxes in Finland, they are totally uncooperative? That they do not make any effort to understand Finnish culture, language and ways? I think many do. Some, unfortunately, get fed up and frustrated.
Calculator Man
December 7, 2008
My Finnish Girlfriend has no problem with me as a Foreigner. And I know so many other Foreigners who have a girlfriend/boyfriend here…but I think we have to distinguish between a Finn who knows the world and a Finn who only knows the trees in front of his house and lives still in the 60s!
You guys have to learn how to live with foreigners otherwise you will get a problem here….did you know that by 2025 every 4th person will have a foreign background in Finland? What are they all going to do here? If you don’t want to pay taxes for them you have to give them work
I also heared that it is cool to have a foreigner as a boy/girlfriend in Helsinki…there were some girls in the city last time who said that they are British but in fact were Finns.
Calculator Man
December 7, 2008
Sorry, ment every 4th person in Helsinki
However, I also want to say that I personally try to learn the Finnish language because I respect the culture of others but I think it will still take a few years…
Enrique
December 7, 2008
Hi Calculator Man, I think that the majority of the foreigners that move to Finland, make an effort to learn the language and culture. For some, this may be easier said than done.
Spam and destroy from Finnish critic of multiculturalism web page
December 7, 2008
from the guestbook of halla-aho.com/scripta:
Nimi : Järkevä Alkoholisti
http://www.halla-aho.com/scripta
Viesti : “Arvon netsit! Jos ylimääräistä viitseiliäisyyttä löytyy, käykääpä vihaisesti spametdestroyaamassa http://nemoo.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/are-you-a-racist-in-finland/ keskustelu.”
No joo, jos tuolla keskustelu on täysin idioottimaista niin sitten ihan OK-ehdotus, mutta jos kyseessä on asiallinen keskustelu, niin käyttäydytään ainakin me järkevästi eikä alennuta näiden monikulttuuri-idioottien tasolle. En siis lukenut tuota juttua, mietin vaan että mitä vähemmän aletaan sontaa heittelemään, sitä parempi on oma julkisuuskuvamme.
7. joulukuuta 2008 19:06:52″
Enrique
December 7, 2008
You pose a good comment Calculator Man: “You guys have to learn how to live with foreigners otherwise you will get a problem here….did you know that by 2025 every 4th person will have a foreign background in Finland? What are they all going to do here?”
Why is it such a difficult thing for some to understand?
Enrique
December 7, 2008
Niin, olen samaa mieltä kun kävin http://www.halla-aho.com/scripta.
Tiwaz
December 8, 2008
-”My Finnish Girlfriend has no problem with me as a Foreigner. And I know so many other Foreigners who have a girlfriend/boyfriend here…but I think we have to distinguish between a Finn who knows the world and a Finn who only knows the trees in front of his house and lives still in the 60s!
You guys have to learn how to live with foreigners otherwise you will get a problem here….did you know that by 2025 every 4th person will have a foreign background in Finland? What are they all going to do here? If you don’t want to pay taxes for them you have to give them work
I also heared that it is cool to have a foreigner as a boy/girlfriend in Helsinki…there were some girls in the city last time who said that they are British but in fact were Finns.”
Yes, I know this youth movement of “all foreign is cool”. It happens everywhere.
And minor detail that your importing girlfriend finds you nice is not proof of anything.
I used to date foreign girl in my earlier youth. Nice girl and all that. Nothing in that. But it does not change fact that permitting or encouraging foreigners to stick to their foreign ways or encouraging them not to put more effort and work to learning to live in Finland according to Finnish principles is unacceptable. It will result in divided society which in turn means conflict.
Only method to avoid this conflict is to ensure there is no division, that means that foreigners have to learn to let go of their previous assumptions, preconceptions and ways. And learn to do stuff the Finnish way.
I do not know what those assumed 25% of HKI population are going to do here either. If they cannot communicate and act properly with 75% of HKI population, and over 90% of population of Finland.
They are useless. Odds of this taking place are minimal anyway. Increase of foreigners will very soon cap in HKI area.
Tiwaz
December 8, 2008
Now, let’s get back to Linda and her point that huge companies have company culture which is enforced globally!
CORRECT! There is ONE set of cultural rules in company, it is MONOcultural. It overrides all, or tries to since there still are issues making people of certain cultures understand concept of time as exact, local cultures.
Why? If Multiculturalism is so superior way of handling things… Why there is one set of rules enforced in corporations which naturally seek most efficient way to do things?
Or point calculator made that salespersons in Finland are… Finns! Could this have something to do with fact that foreigners do not know how to sell things to Finns? Despite cultural differences being just illusions… Of course not!
So, Enrique. To help us debate, I have here list of questions to which I expect you to answer. It will help us debate as you have to point out what you base your claims on.
1) Do you admit that every conflict is built around some kind of dividing line? Be it cultural, ethnic, religious or ideological. As we see with history.
If not, explain WHAT exactly conflicts build around of if not divisions? And how you logically come to that conclusion?
2) Do you admit that multiculturalism is all about dividing people into separate groups? Each with their own ways and values which they follow no matter where they move to.
3)If no, explain why that is exactly what takes place everywhere where multiculturalism is attempted. People bunch up with people like themselves. I live near area of Hervanta in TRE. I see every time I go visit Hervanta center that people stick to their own kind. Muslim women walking with muslim women. Men of immigrant origin bunching up with their own kind. Chinese people walking with chinese.
Only exceptions being student groups where there is usually one token Finn for interpretation.
Explain why this is logically illusion and in reality they are happily mixed bunch. And how you came to that logical conclusion.
4) If multicultural approach is more efficient than monocultural, why corporations instead of letting all cultures get along peacefully like they, in your theory, would… Enforce single corporation culture in whole corporation?
Explain logic on why these corporations, which have high interest on most efficient system possible, choose monocultural approach over multicultural.
5) Explain why people of certain cultural background are way overrepresented in rape statistics if there is no cultural conflict. Because they are anything up to 10 times overrepresented in rape statistics. While there are other, even larger, immigrant groups who share same problems but not same culture and who do NOT have such overrepresentation on rape statistics.
Explain why this is not due to cultural conflict and what is your logic behind that conclusion. (hint, poverty, Finnish racism and all that do not cut the mustard as Russians etc will have same issues without same result)
I WILL keep bombing you with these questions, and will add more of them as time goes by and I have time to formulate them, until you answer them thoroughly.
Or admit that multiculturalism is failure.
Enrique
December 8, 2008
–Yes, I know this youth movement of “all foreign is cool”. It happens everywhere.
And minor detail that your importing girlfriend finds you nice is not proof of anything.
It is not that being foreigner or Finnish cool, but that these two things ARE cool.
Tiwaz
December 8, 2008
Now, Enrique. Start answering my questions.
You want debate, start providing some foundation for your claims on excellence of multiculturalism.
Enrique
December 8, 2008
1) Do you admit that every conflict is built around some kind of dividing line? Be it cultural, ethnic, religious or ideological. As we see with history.
The dividing line you talk about are in between people’s ears. The bottom line of these conflicts is when one group imposes its will and ways on another.
2) Do you admit that multiculturalism is all about dividing people into separate groups? Each with their own ways and values which they follow no matter where they move to.
This is what it aims to do THEORETICALLY but it does not happen in practice. It is incorrect to think that when people from very diverse cultures come to a country in Finland just lock themselves up in a cultural compartment and stay there. Since they live in a new country, they change as do the people who deal with them. It is a sort of dynamic process of give and take. Some are more able to adapt to the host culture faster than others. Some, can live in both cultures. It is like traveling form one country to the other. I do it all the time.
3) Explain why this is logically illusion and in reality they are happily mixed bunch. And how you came to that logical conclusion.
Instead of forcing and destroying people’s identity, why not try to do it another way: accept diversity; learn to live and respect each other. Isn’t that the way how people become good friends and share friendship?
4) If multicultural approach is more efficient than monocultural, why corporations instead of letting all cultures get along peacefully like they, in your theory, would… Enforce single corporation culture in whole corporation?
These companies work in a corporate culture. They focus on how to minimize cultural problems in order to maximize profits. Corporate culture is nothing more than a universal sort of culture. Most of the managers have studied at universities, lived abroad so cultural differences are not an issue. When I worked in Colombia as bureau chief for a US news agency, the managers were people who had studied in universities such as the London School of Economics, Yale, Harvard etc…
5) Explain why people of certain cultural background are way overrepresented in rape statistics if there is no cultural conflict. Because they are anything up to 10 times overrepresented in rape statistics. While there are other, even larger, immigrant groups who share same problems but not same culture and who do NOT have such overrepresentation on rape statistics.
Because there IS a problem. However, we cannot generalize. What would I teach such people? I’d tell them that since women have been emancipated in many respects (salaries are still lower than what men make) the worst insult you can commit to a member of the opposite sex is to rape or take away her rights. It is a big cultural NO-NO as well as being a serious crime.
You can bomb me as many times you wish.
Calculator Man
December 8, 2008
Of course Foreigners can sell their stuff to Finns. Just go to Stockmann and have a look how many products are not from Finland.
Do you drive a Finnish Car? How many Restaurants do you have in Helsinki were you can get Finnish Food.
I am sorry, but your Finnish Culture is already influenced by Foreign Culture but it seems that you are not aware of this fact.
Tiwaz
December 8, 2008
1)The dividing line you talk about are in between people’s ears. The bottom line of these conflicts is when one group imposes its will and ways on another.
So you do admit that divisions are reason for conflict?
It does not matter where those divisions are, because as long as they exist they will be source of conflict.
2)This is what it aims to do THEORETICALLY but it does not happen in practice. It is incorrect to think that when people from very diverse cultures come to a country in Finland just lock themselves up in a cultural compartment and stay there. Since they live in a new country, they change as do the people who deal with them. It is a sort of dynamic process of give and take. Some are more able to adapt to the host culture faster than others. Some, can live in both cultures. It is like traveling form one country to the other. I do it all the time.
In practice it fails even worse. They segregate, separate and form division. This is seen everywhere in the world. Immigrants sticking to immigrants, clinging to their old ways and causing friction.
3)Instead of forcing and destroying people’s identity, why not try to do it another way: accept diversity; learn to live and respect each other. Isn’t that the way how people become good friends and share friendship?
Humm… Again, conflict? You see, people do not act like you say they should. They act like they do. History proves that people just do not become good friends and share friendship.
You are again spewing your “if nobody committed crime, we would not need police”-dogma. I am not interested in what you WISH there was, I am interested in what there IS. Because one is your delusion, which is limited between your ears. And another is reality in which we live, and in which people divided culturally slaughter one another.
5)These companies work in a corporate culture. They focus on how to minimize cultural problems in order to maximize profits. Corporate culture is nothing more than a universal sort of culture. Most of the managers have studied at universities, lived abroad so cultural differences are not an issue. When I worked in Colombia as bureau chief for a US news agency, the managers were people who had studied in universities such as the London School of Economics, Yale, Harvard etc…
But if people are so happy and good friends with one another, why would there be need for corporate culture which minimizes cultural problems? After all, why would there be cultural problems if everyone was getting along fine and being friends and all that crap?
You yourself here admit that there are cultural problems!
5)Because there IS a problem. However, we cannot generalize. What would I teach such people? I’d tell them that since women have been emancipated in many respects (salaries are still lower than what men make) the worst insult you can commit to a member of the opposite sex is to rape or take away her rights. It is a big cultural NO-NO as well as being a serious crime.
And it is CULTURAL problem. You are right now imposing in their CULTURE. You are telling them they cannot hold on to their own culture here in Finland. what happened to multiculturalism? Where is “Their way is just as good as Finnish way” idea?
You are prescribing my solution to problems. Make sure everyone who immigrates understand and accept Finnish cultural norms as standard for behavior in Finland, and forget their existing preconceptions.
Calculator, you are idiot.
Do you know how those foreign origin items are sold? In Finnish way! Because trying to sell something without understanding Finnish language and culture is failure.
But you are too thick to get it into your bonehead.
Calculator Man
December 8, 2008
Yes, for example there was this VW advertising…it is the same as in my home country. They just translated it for you so you can understand it. If it would be in a different language you would think it is crap.
But it doesn’t change the fact that you buy this stuff from foreigners (at least Finnish Sales people buy it and sell it here again).
If you would be a real patriot you should only buy Finnish products and support Finnish manufacturers AND you should only go to Finnish Restaurants because Foreign Restaurants help to minimize the revenues of the Finnish Restaurant because it takes customers away. You should also not travel to other countries because they would hate you in other countries because they made such bad experience here with you
So, If I ever see you again in a Kebab or Italian Restaurant I will make a picture of you eating Kebab and post it here. Remember, you are a Finn! You should only eat Lapland Cheese and Reindeer meat!!!
Enrique
December 8, 2008
Caluclator Man, you make a very good point. If we look at ourselves in Finnish or any modern society, we’d be surprised by how many “foreign” things make up our lives. I like your sense of humor!
What is interesting to note is that if multiculturalism has “invaded” Finland in the past four decades, it has been with food. People did not know in the 1970s what was a pizza never mind kebab, and real American hamburgers.
We should ask people such as Tiwaz what their daily diet comprises of.
Calculator Man
December 8, 2008
well, what do you do if you can’t find a job and are forced to live here because you are e.g. married to a Finn, have children etc. …you open a Restaurant. Why do you think there are so many of them here in Helsinki
At least more than Finnish Restaurants.
Tiwaz
December 9, 2008
Imbecilator, you fail to grasp difference between using foreign made product and accepting foreign culture in Finland.
If I sometimes eat pizza, it does not make me have any connection with italian culture.
If I drive Toyota, it does not make me suddenly have japanese cultural values.
I remain Finn culturally and totally. Issue here are not foreign products, but foreign cultures attempted to be imported to Finland and idiots trying to say that it is just fine to have them replace out native culture.
Calculator Man
December 9, 2008
yeah whatever, I don’t care anymore. It doesn’t matter what I say…you will always find something to say against it. Of course you have a connection to the Italian culture if you eat Pizza. Did you have Pizza here 100 years ago?
Tiwaz
December 9, 2008
Does eating pizza change my values, traditions or behavior?
No.
Enrique
December 9, 2008
It shows that a culture can change. People change. Apart from changing your eating habits, it changes your diet. This can have health consequences.
Tiwaz
December 9, 2008
Pizza is not culture. Eating it does not change anything in my culture, my values, my traditions and so on. Pizza is just food.
It has more cultural importance for italians, for Finn it is just food. And I never said culture does not change. But what you fail to grasp is that Finnish culture is changes to fit wants and needs of FINNS. That is, people who build their identity through it.
Finns will not change culture to fit you foreigners. Perhaps something worthy from your culture is altered to fit ours. But we say what is worthy to be added, not you. Most of what you find worthy is pure shit from our point of view. As it fails to respect existing Finnish culture. And we do not tear it apart to accommodate some piece of your culture for which we see no use or value.
Enrique
December 9, 2008
It sure is important to Finns as well. If you are hungry, a pizza looks mighty fine.
–But we say what is worthy to be added, not you. Most of what you find worthy is pure shit from our point of view.
There you go, blowing your top again. I wonder what kind of relations you have with your friends never mind the opposite sex.
Calculator Man
December 9, 2008
Tiwaz can’t just accept that the Finnish Culture has mixed up with the Italian Culture. Hmmm..what would the world do without the Italian Pizza Culture…you find it everywhere in the world.
Ok, next example…Big Brother is originally from the Netherlands and it is not food…I think I have also seen it on TV with some Finns in it
Finnish TV Culture has changed as well…(and they are not introvert as they show themselves to everybody)
Now he is going to tell me that those Finns are betrayer of the Finnish Culture and not real Finns
Enrique
December 9, 2008
Hi Calculator Man, Tiwaz would not accept what you said. In a way he has become “famous” for his dubious ideas. I personally do not understand how a person can be so close-minded but he has a right to his opinions. Someone posed an interesting question: is Tiwaz one person posting with different names? This may be highly possible.
Calculator Man
December 9, 2008
Honestly, I don’t care…I find it quite amusing to read this stuff. Didn’t know that such people still exist
Karri
December 10, 2008
I can’t help but comment on the comparisons that some people draw in their comments between Finland and countries like Canada. I live in Toronto, Canada, myself, and while I greatly enjoy the great mix of people in Toronto and think that most Canadians in this city have a very healthy, sane idea on multiculturalism and just people, people of any color, ethnicity or background in general, there are loads of examples of blatant racism in Canada as well. Just do a quick Google search, search for info on how the RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) treats the Natives in Saskatchewan, in Manitoba, find out about how in Alberta, Canada, the KKK has been officially recognized as a legal association by the provincial government, not just once, but twice in the past decades, or read about how the police in Toronto, too, is sometimes dubbed ‘racist’. I’ve seen what I think is blatant racism at the airport in Toronto, at the customs and immigration desks, numerous times.
And while I know and very well recognize that there is racism in Finland, yes, and it needs to be destroyed, and I feel extremely sorry for the bad experiences some have experienced, I also know many foreigners, including my own wife, of all color and backgrounds who say they have quite enjoyed their lives in Finland and have found many Finns a bit quirky, yes, introverted and cold at first, but warm and welcoming at heart.
So my point is this: there is racism in Finland and we all must help to get rid of it. And there are differences in the type and ‘amount’ of racism between different countries. But before you jump into generalizations and comparisons, keep in mind that there is racism elsewhere, probably everywhere, in the world too, and if you haven’t really lived in the other country that you’re comparing Finland to, I think you’re more likely to be wrong with your assumptions than right. I thought Canada was clean of most racism before I really got to know this country better.
Enrique
December 10, 2008
Even though a social ill such as racism exists, it is a good matter that some countries are addressing this problem. Think what kind of a country Canada would be if it taught totally different values?
Enrique
December 10, 2008
Yes, Calculator Man, it is tragi-comic. I feel sorry for such people because they really lose out on life. It is like seeing the world with binoculars: some know how to use it (see things closer) and others look at from the wrong side (see everything distant).
Tiwaz
December 10, 2008
“Tiwaz can’t just accept that the Finnish Culture has mixed up with the Italian Culture. Hmmm..what would the world do without the Italian Pizza Culture…you find it everywhere in the world.
Ok, next example…Big Brother is originally from the Netherlands and it is not food…I think I have also seen it on TV with some Finns in it
Finnish TV Culture has changed as well…(and they are not introvert as they show themselves to everybody)
Now he is going to tell me that those Finns are betrayer of the Finnish Culture and not real Finns
”
Imbecile, read the dictionary definition of culture and tell which part of Finnish values, traditions etc has changed with eating pizza?
Nothing! It has not added anything to our culture. It is food idiot. Culture is not physical, you cannot bake it and eat it.
Tiwaz
December 10, 2008
As for BB people. They are attention whores found from every society. And most of their stupidity comes from them forgetting that they are always in camera.
Calculator Man
December 10, 2008
Tiwaz: Believe whatever you want
Tiwaz
December 10, 2008
I do not need to believe.
Which part of Italian traditions or values come with which pizza slice? Will eating Quattro make me imitate windmill while talking like italians?
Or perhaps it makes me talk nonstop?
Calculator Man
December 10, 2008
Food is part of Culture
Calculator Man
December 10, 2008
http://africa.eduprojects.net/culture/index.php?action%5B%5D=IArticleShow::showArticle(259)
Enrique
December 10, 2008
It’s rude to speak with your mouth full. Pizza has turned into a Finnish national food. Forty years ago they did not know what was a pizza in Finland. I think that it pretty interesting. But see how culture changes and incorporates new things?
intternetnetsi
December 10, 2008
Cultures can do that like pizza and kebab, those arent offending parts of cultures. Well if Chinese would demand to dog in table that would be offending.
Those what you represent are parts of other cultures we WILLINGLY take.
Multiculturalism doesnt have anything to do with willing, its to force other values and if you dont take it youre racists…
Eat dog. No. RACISTS!
I can tell to whom my child marries. No. RACISTS!
I can mutilate my child. No. RACISTS!
Pleace dont camp in here. Im black so youre racists when you enforce rules same to all byhyy!!!
There is big difference with normal living together and multiculturalism.
Multiculturalism has nothing to do with peaceful living, it starts with assumption that every culture is equal what is lie.
There is no equality in multicultarism.
Enrique
December 10, 2008
–Multiculturalism doesnt have anything to do with willing, its to force other values and if you dont take it youre racists…
Eat dog. No. RACISTS! I can tell to whom my child marries. No. RACISTS!
Intternetnetsi, I think you are exaggerating a bit. If you do not want to interact with certain people, that is your right. Nobody can force you to.
–Multiculturalism has nothing to do with peaceful living, it starts with assumption that every culture is equal what is lie.
Well, here is where the problem is. And, yes, when you consider your culture superior to others, they call that ethnocentrism (Sumner, 1906). Are you saying that there are more advanced and less-advanced cultures?
intternetnetsi
December 10, 2008
-Well, here is where the problem is. And, yes, when you consider your culture superior to others, they call that ethnocentrism (Sumner, 1906). Are you saying that there are more advanced and less-advanced cultures?
Yes there is, according to our culture woman is equal, we dont mutilate our childrens, we take care of people of need etc.
I call that superior.
There is of course parts of other cultures to learn but that doesnt mean all cultures are equal and that we should accept them as whole.
Of course other culture can see that beating woman is ok and see our culture inferior but they can stay home.
intternetnetsi
December 10, 2008
-Intternetnetsi, I think you are exaggerating a bit. If you do not want to interact with certain people, that is your right. Nobody can force you to.
That becomes problem when multiculturalist manage to get law on those. Like they have in USA and Canada, There is apartheid going on.
There is no problem with me interacting with friends taiwanese wife or others russian wife or my cousins indian husband. They aren yelling and demanding just living.
Or few others foreigners i know.
elGreco
December 10, 2008
Statistics from Statistics Finland: from 2004
108346 total amount of foreigners.
Total amount from the Former Soviet Union, Estonia and Sweden:46.813
And I think most of those who come from the first 2 places have Finnish ancestors and in the case of Sweden most are Fins who got the Swedish citizenship and are returning to Finland.
Now about Multicultural: The world is already Multicultural or how else could food like Pizza and kebab being explained? Add to this rock music blues classic music etc. All those did not origin from Finland.
The fact is that cultures are national and international as well.
Tomatoes come from the Americas and carrots from Italy etc.
The concept of democracy, philosophy and the Olympic games from Greece.
Try to have a intelligent conversation in Finnish for 10 minutes without using ONE single foreign word.
Enrique
December 10, 2008
OK, that’s your opinion. That is a value judgment. I can also say subjectively that in Finnish culture people care very little for their elderly. Is that a yardstick to measure how superior or inferior Finnish culture is? Of course not.
By the way, are you the guy that used to post as Onkko?
Enrique
December 10, 2008
“Apartheid” is a pretty strong word to use to describe ethnic and cultural diversity in Canada and the US. You probably have little idea what was apartheid in South Africa.
Enrique
December 10, 2008
You make a very good point, elGreco. We are already part of a big international/multicultural family. Some have a harder time grasping that than others.
intternetnetsi
December 11, 2008
-“Apartheid” is a pretty strong word to use to describe ethnic and cultural diversity in Canada and the US. You probably have little idea what was apartheid in South Africa.
Yes thats strong word but principles are same, there are people who are more equal because of their colour. And there is genocide going out in south africa. i do know what happened and is happening in there.
And about elderly? Tell me about it. Tell it to my relatives who painted our grandparents home for them or relatives who managed to ride for shop when they needed. And those includes me when i lived in same city, now it would be 800km from her and i still se her atleast once in year.
If granmother called to me and asked to come now i wouldnt hesitate to lift.
Tell it to me who drove 30km just for let grandparents in shop. Not caring?
Tell that to my home where we had fathers mother living with us as long as possible.
Tell that to my friend who is “transferring” his mother to near where he lives, she has alzheimer.
That is part where we can learn from other cultures or keep our old culture what had that but again thats our choise like we take parts of other cultures all time by choise and due to moving its sometimes impossible.
Thats not bad part culture and no one probably has nothing against of caring elders.
Thing is that in culture there can be bad things and we have to have right to oppose those without being branded as racistst like you did to Halla-aho without even reading/understanding his texts.
And yes im Onkko, i decided to change my nick to point what i think current things.
intternetnetsi
December 11, 2008
And about “our racism”, we have poland jude in eduskunta (he is married with tatar), swede in eduskunta, half black as miss finland with weird name, cheered boxer with weird name and background, man with russian name as head of military intelligence etc…
They are all finnish, just not ordinary finnish.
Point is most of us dont give a shit about where youre from, its your problem to live according our rules and make something out of it.
Be finnish and youre accepted regardless of your name or colour.
Tiwaz
December 11, 2008
-Well, here is where the problem is. And, yes, when you consider your culture superior to others, they call that ethnocentrism (Sumner, 1906). Are you saying that there are more advanced and less-advanced cultures?
Well, YES! There are superior cultures in this world. EVERY culture is superior in their native land.
And this is Finland, native culture is FINNISH. You foreigners have no place telling us natives how our society should be built, how we should live and what our traditions should be.
Respect our culture, do not try to import your culture to replace ours. Do not presume that we are so stupid we do not know what smiling is. Accept that our values are different, accept that our values are values of this country.
And then learn not to try to push your foreign ways to us. Stop whining about racism when you are clearly at huge handicap because you refuse to learn Finnish language and culture.
Finnish culture is one of the most liberal there are. It is founded on privacy and respect of privacy for others. But it is also founded on strong community. Solo people died out in harsh conditions.
When in Finland, act and speak Finnish. If you can’t, leave. Do not presume to come here to tell us how to live in OUR country.
Enrique
December 11, 2008
–Respect our culture, do not try to import your culture to replace ours. Do not presume that we are so stupid we do not know what smiling is. Accept that our values are different, accept that our values are values of this country.
You should point the finger at the Finns. They are the “culprits” taking and adapting pieces of other cultures.
–And then learn not to try to push your foreign ways to us. Stop whining about racism when you are clearly at huge handicap because you refuse to learn Finnish language and culture.
Handicap? Isn’t your antiquated way of seeing the world a handicap to this country and society?
–When in Finland, act and speak Finnish. If you can’t, leave. Do not presume to come here to tell us how to live in OUR country.
Here, I will throw some water on you to smother your flames. Feel better?
Enrique
December 11, 2008
–Point is most of us dont give a shit about where youre from, its your problem to live according our rules and make something out of it.
I hope this was true. That is the way it should be. Everyone is entitled to privacy. More people will accept diverse people as we move into the future. I think many foreigners make an effort to learn the language and be part of the culture. Don’t you think so? If you run a business, what better integrator than that? You have to adapt to the needs of your clients/customers and offer a service they like.
Enrique
December 11, 2008
–Yes thats strong word but principles are same, there are people who are more equal because of their colour. And there is genocide going out in south africa. i do know what happened and is happening in there.
So do you think that apartheid would resolve South Africa’s social problems?
About the elderly. I am happy that you respect and help your parents and grandparents. My point here is that many of our interpretations are based on our culture. For some Finns it is ok to send elderly people to homes for senior citizens and that they have a very small role in this society. My point is that elderly people should play a more important role. That is my opinion and I am not telling you what is bad or good.
Greetings Onkko.
Tiwaz
December 11, 2008
-”I hope this was true. That is the way it should be. Everyone is entitled to privacy. More people will accept diverse people as we move into the future. I think many foreigners make an effort to learn the language and be part of the culture. Don’t you think so? If you run a business, what better integrator than that? You have to adapt to the needs of your clients/customers and offer a service they like.”
Business is there to make PROFIT, not act as shelter job for incompetent immigrants. If immigrant cannot do the job in a way which is profitable for company (give service in a way which Finnish customer expects to get) why the hell should they be employed?
Learn to do and speak things in Finnish cultural context/language and your chances of employment go through the roof. Namely, INTEGRATE to society around you, do not expect it to integrate to you losers.
-”Handicap? Isn’t your antiquated way of seeing the world a handicap to this country and society?”
Nope. It is handicap if you cannot communicate with your client. Or do you perhaps think that customer coming should somehow try to learn your language and do business in way they do not prefer just so your incompetent ego is not bruised?
-”You should point the finger at the Finns. They are the “culprits” taking and adapting pieces of other cultures. ”
Listen idiot, I have told this to you many times but apparently all you can grasp is “multiculturalismmulticulturalismmulticulturalismmulticulturalismmulticulturalismmulticulturalism”
I have never said that Finnish culture is static, it changes. It adapts. It even takes pieces from other cultures, CHANGES those pieces to fit larger whole of Finnish culture and then ASSIMILATES them into Finnish culture (nothing significant is taken as it is, Finnish pizza is totally different from what you get in Italy for example).
But all this takes place by FINNISH desires. Like this chico or something who thinks he has to teach Finns to smile. It has never occurred to his little mind that Finns just have values which find his behavior to be bad. He just wants to educate us barbarians to act like his fellow mexicans.
He does not respect our culture. He didn’t even bother learning WHY Finns do not smile as much as mexicans.
And then there is you, idiot. You want to import whole pieces of foreign culture, push away Finnish culture and call it progress. You want to make every culture “equal”, create “multicultural heaven”. You are oblivious to fact that despite all the attempts to create your heaven, it has never worked! All it causes is conflict and problems.
We Finns have “right” to change our culture, you foreigners have no right to try to force your culture on us. So stop doing it. Learn to respect Finnish culture, learn to act in Finnish culture according to Finnish norms. Stop being pathetic losers screaming racism every time your arrogance and ignorance bites you in the ass.
Calculator Man
December 11, 2008
Is this also part of the Finnish Culture to call others Idiots and Losers?
You have a really weak personality 
Tiwaz
December 11, 2008
No, you guys are just stupid losers.
Enrique
December 11, 2008
In one sentence you blow yourself and your arguments into the dustbin. Thank you for revealing your persona.
Calculator Man
December 11, 2008
It is not worth talking with Tiwaz. The Finns I know do not behave like him.
Enrique
December 11, 2008
Yes, you are right.
Tiwaz
December 11, 2008
The Finns who you know are too polite to tell you flat out to your face that you are arrogant little ass who needs to be smacked around the ears.
Because that you are kid.
You think you are entitled to walk to other countries and start to criticize them, whine how racist they are and how they have to respect you. But refuse to respect locals, their culture and language.
So, you are stupid.
And you fail to argue arguments, instead trying to avoid the issue. Enrique specially does his best not to touch the actual issues with 10 feet pole, just making his pathetic attempts to label Finns as racists and me as nazi.
So you are losers.
Together, you are stupid losers.
Tiwaz
December 11, 2008
Tell me, is it racism if you do not get a job because you cannot speak or behave properly and your possible certificates are not recognized in Finland?
Do you honestly think that Finn, if they managed to have as little credentials, would get a job?
Answer to that racist losers.
By the way, Enrique, I notice that you have failed to respond to my message in “Foreigners in Finland: Integration or conversation? ” as an example. Ran out of ways to try to avoid the issue so you just hope you can silence the truth to death?
Calculator Man
December 11, 2008
Tiwaz: Well, I have a job here in Finland without knowing any Finnish. But fortunately my Boss, who is a Finn, has not your mentality. So again…you are actually the “stupid loser” because you can’t get along with other nationalities but there are also others who can.
I was wondering if Tiwaz would also behave like a Baby if he would be exposed to a different environment…I guess he would be really quite and polite
Now he will tell us: That’s the reason why I stay at home and never go to another country 
When are you planning to eat Pizza again?
Calculator Man
December 11, 2008
Tiwaz: Do you think your Finnish Certificates are somehow better? If you have a certificate then I don’t think so
I think Tiwaz can’t get along with Foreigners because he can’t believe that Pizza comes from Italy and not from Finland
Enrique
December 11, 2008
I wonder what his employer would say if we exposed what his comments in this blog.
Calculator Man
December 11, 2008
Maybe he has no employer
Enrique
December 11, 2008
Or, maybe he IS the employer!
Calculator Man
December 11, 2008
Could also be. I don’t care…he has a personal problem
intternetnetsi
December 11, 2008
-Tiwaz: Do you think your Finnish Certificates are somehow better? If you have a certificate then I don’t think so
In Finland Finnish certificate is way better than Nowherestan certificate.
-Tiwaz: Well, I have a job here in Finland without knowing any Finnish.
Who said thats impossible? you have niche job where your skills are needed and your skills override need of finnish.
And youre probably from europe/usa/canada/australia where values are quite close to our values. Not like my friend employee who refused to work when he had woman as boss and yelled racism when he was fired.
Calculator Man
December 11, 2008
Don’t know which foreigners you know…at least those foreigners who I know come from civilized countries within the EU and have problems finding a Job here.
I also know a foreigner who has 2 Master Degrees from Finland and is still not able to get a job here but I also know one guy who has no degree at all and works here in programming.
I think you just need to be lucky and find the right employer…guess that’s the same in other countries.
Tiwaz
December 12, 2008
And being lucky is aided by learning to speak and behave according to local norms.
You might get lucky and get a job like you did imbecilator, but then again… Large portion of immigrants who fail to grasp that do not.
Does this 2 masters degree guy have any skills in interacting in Finnish society? And is he master of some useless humanist crap, which simply has excess of Finns competing for every job?
Tiwaz
December 12, 2008
-I was wondering if Tiwaz would also behave like a Baby if he would be exposed to a different environment…I guess he would be really quite and polite
Now he will tell us: That’s the reason why I stay at home and never go to another country 
When I visit foreign countries, I respect their culture and tradition Imbecilator.
It is basic politeness which you and Enrique appear to be incapable of grasping. You demand appeasement from us natives, instead of respecting our culture.
And don’t give me that bullshit about “two way road”. That is just pathetic excuse to demand appeasement.
“Two way road” is just way of getting guy whos culture tells him to take a dump at my livingroom carpet to take a dump in the toilet, as room not as object, and then demand me to accept that.
No way.
Immigrant integrates, society they immigrates to does not come halfway there because you are too stupid or lazy to change.
You came here, you were not dragged in against your will. So shut up about your two way road and start accepting that in Finland, the Finnish way is the supreme way.
Enrique
December 12, 2008
–It is basic politeness which you and Enrique appear to be incapable of grasping. You demand appeasement from us natives, instead of respecting our culture.
Yes, right. You “respect” other people’s culture. Your comments show that.
–“Two way road” is just way of getting guy whos culture tells him to take a dump at my livingroom carpet to take a dump in the toilet, as room not as object, and then demand me to accept that.
Your comparisons are getting weirder by the day. You should get an award for furthering the cause of cultural understanding among people. What about if I nominate you as president of the Advancement of Multiculturalism in Finland?
–You came here, you were not dragged in against your will. So shut up about your two way road and start accepting that in Finland, the Finnish way is the supreme way.
Do you know the law and rights of other in Finland? It appears that you are very much in the dark about it.
Enrique
December 12, 2008
The problem with your arguments is that you believe that ALL foreigners are a bunch of lazy bums. As I told you, we live in a democratic country and region where people have the right to make CHOICES. They makes choices and take responsibility for them. However, you use the present arguments and descriptions of other people who are not like you to justify your extreme bipolar world.
Enrique
December 12, 2008
I believe, Calculator Man, it has a lot to do with luck as you said. Resourcefulness is also another important factor. However, I think too many Finnish employers fail to grasp what is a foreigner and how both could benefit from a professional relationship. In sum, too many don’t have a clue about the whole matter.
Calculator Man
December 12, 2008
Tiwaz, this guy with 2 Master Degree can also speak Finnish. Was wondering if you have you ever been to another country? Ibiza, Mallorca, Stockholm..I guess?
alien
December 12, 2008
Attention:
To me most of the Finns are like normal people. They try to come along and realize how the world is attached and how the people are depending in each other. So most of the Finns are dealing with their fears and concerns and lack of confidence in correct way. SO please dont Take Tiwaz so seriously. He needs help. He needs professional help.
Guys, please try to understand Tiwaz. We should help him and encourage him. Tiwaz might be suffering from some childhood drama. Every thing could be possible. He could be taken advantage by a dark skin man when he has been a child. A foreigner could have stolen his GF. He could have been raised in an environment with full of hatred against foreigners. Maybe too much alcohol has made him impotent and that is a source of great complex. All this could make a man unstable and make him not to think straight.
Tiwaz if you have to hate us, do so. No problem my friend. but please take your medicine and keep consulting with professionals. That is all I can recommend. Don’t take part in serious discussions. It might be a bit heavy for you. And dont try to convince us that we are stupid. We already know that a bit of that is true, otherwise we would never show up in Finland.
All I am saying is that try to understand Tiwaz by putting yourself in his place. In his superior culture you should see your folks 2-3 times a year (Privacy rule!). Your children do not say hello and treat you as if you don’t exist (This makes you remarkably distinguished from the cultures in Middle east or south of Europe). Your GF leave you if he gets a better BF (Emotion is a sign of immaturity). You are eating magnificent Makaroni laatikko (quite portable). if lucky the red dishes for Christmas (compulsory privilege). You can add to that the pleasant weather of Finland and sun shines 3 hours a day which gives you extra superiority to vampires.
Does not all this make us a Tiwaz
Enrique
December 12, 2008
Hi Alien, thank you for those inspiring and compassionate words. As you have noticed, Tiwaz has had the right to state his case. But if debate turns into a mud fight, what purpose does it serve?
intternetnetsi
December 12, 2008
-hose foreigners who I know come from civilized countries within the EU and have problems finding a Job here.
Well i know plenty of finnish people with degrees who have difficulties to find job, add there unability to speak good finnish then you have more problems.
Obviously you dont know dark side of multiculturalism, you see only english carpenter, german engineer etc and dont see other side.
I see both sides, i happen to have friends and relatives in police, healthcare, teacher, security and in other professions where they see reality of living.
I dont mind if someone who is willing to adapt and work in finland, keep your thanksgiving and other parties, keep your food and parts of culture what doesnt insult our culture.
But dont come to us telling were racists when your culture insults ours or use yelling racism as way to get what you want.
Enrique
December 12, 2008
Some part of your comment is sensible but then you go into a sort of cruise-drive mode and start saying “yelling” racist that racist this. It isn’t that simple and it is a problem in all cultures. But if you are a target of racism, you have all the right of the law to denounce it. It is as simple as that.
It is clear that Finland was and will become more of a multicultural/multiethnical society. That nobody can stop — not you nor me. Are you guys the last Mohegans making a final stand before Finnish culture is “destroyed” and “doomed” because foreigners come to live here and pay taxes. It will bring many challenges to this society but there is one thing we cannot do: stop time. And I belive that Finland has all the tools to meet that challenge and turn that situation into an opportunity.
intternetnetsi
December 12, 2008
-and start saying “yelling” racist that racist this
Tell them to stop accusing racism where there isnt racims. Open you eyes.. well you dont even live in finland..
-That nobody can stop
Lie
-Finnish culture is “destroyed” and “doomed” because foreigners come to live here and pay taxes.
In your hopes, look statistics. After 6 years its about +-0, before that we pay. And then we have horde of flowerhats telling we cant have suvivirsi or such because it offends immigrants. Read news.
Calculator Man
December 13, 2008
What is the use of all these University Courses in Finland where language of instruction is English if you don’t want foreigners?
And hey there is Racism here in Finland…just read your own postings
alien
December 13, 2008
My Finnish friends; In spite of what u like or not, the way Finland is going is toward more openness to outside. Preferably to countries within EU or non-moslem countries. Why because you need man power. Only a tiny fraction of you might think otherwise.
Now the comment from intternetnetsi;
“After 6 years its about +-0, before that we pay.” If that is true that is the price you have to pay when you are not so useful in bed and your population is shrinking. Not doing so give you the same faith as Mohegans or Azteks. The word is extinction!
Finding job in Finland;
Calculator says; “at least those foreigners who I know come from civilized countries within the EU and have problems finding a Job here. ”
Well if you from civilized countries within EU feel the problem, imagine people like me coming from uncivilized countries outside EU!
Body snatchers:
Every time I saw movies like “body snatchers” or the new version, “Invaders”, it reminds me of Fins. They are truly people who respect the laws and very disciplined. They cannot tolerate any one not alike themselves. They say we cannot tolerate deficiency! They claim that they have superior culture and ways of doing things. They are the most sufficient. And perfect. Free of emotions. Or maybe we cannot grasp and digest their culture. The only problem that they have is that they are not human.
Any one sharing the same experience with me ? :-/
Enrique
December 13, 2008
alien, I don’t buy everything you rights. There are all types of Finns, ranging from Tiwaz to very open ones. Those that are ethnocentric and do not tolerate diversity live in their own world. Life passes them by while the rest of us enjoy the cultural fireworks like on New Year.
Are there “uncivilized” countries in the EU? What do you mean by “civilized?”
Enrique
December 13, 2008
If you ask my honest opinion about your last sentence on racism in Finland, I think the answer is pretty clear. There is a problem in Finland as there is in other countries in the EU. However, if we look at some of the postings, we can conclude that those that have written them have never been taught that racism/discrimination is wrong. They act as if it were their right to insult other cultures, place conditions and then make an ultimatum: if you do not like it here leave or, worse, throw away your identity and become a Finn.
The problem in Finland is due to ignorance and because these people do not have a clue.
alien
December 14, 2008
Hi Enrique:
It is absolutely OK we have different opinions on things. About civilized things, I was quoting from Our friend Calculator. That is not originally what I post. Ctrl+F and you will find it out.
Cheers
intternetnetsi
December 14, 2008
Or is your racism that you dont understand that we take you as equal, not some fragile multiculture identity who breaks with few words?
-them have never been taught that racism/discrimination is wrong.
Well not really because atleast i think everyone is equal without teaching. Problem is people who see discrimination when theyre treaded equally.
And to alien, in finland we give great value for words and own space. You seem to see that as coldness. E.G if you fall in ice no one “sees” you because of your dignity. That doesnt apply if youre old or child or really hurt yourself.
Also remember that if you get finnish frend you get frend for life, its not american “friend”.
About speaking you have choose your words carefully because theyre bonding, not like american chitchat. Sanasta miestä, sarvesta härkää is old finnish saying.
So you just dont get finnish culture.
Enrique
December 14, 2008
OK, fine, alien. Thank you for clearing the matter up.
Enrique
December 14, 2008
It takes more guts to depend on one’s character than on nationalist-ethnic fantasies that are only a stack of cards.
–Also remember that if you get finnish frend you get frend for life, its not american “friend”.
This is the type of myths I have written about previously. In some cases this may be true and in others it is not. You cannot generalize about Finns as of any other groups. There are many types of people that fit the cultural slot.
Calculator Man
December 14, 2008
alien: yeah sorry, I know there are also countries outside the EU which are civilized…sorry. Just made sometimes the experience that some people only consider European and some English speaking countries as civilized
Sorry !!!!!
Calculator Man
December 14, 2008
Tiwaz: well If you think you represent the Finnish Culture then I have to tell you that it sucks
Sometimes I see these drunken people in the city (actually every day). I don’t want to behave like them (as you said that I have to behave like Finns do).
And hey if your culture is so superior, why do you guys have the highest suicide rate in Europe? Because of the Foreigners
My girlfriend works in Customer Service here in Finland and even she complains that so many people are not even able to say “Hallo” or “Thank you”.
Last time I went to a Bank and you have to get this ticket with a number to see when its your turn. There was a Finn who just went to the counter when it was actually my turn.
So please stop with your stupid arguments that Foreigners have to behave like Finns. Either you know how to behave or you don’t know it…this has nothing to do if you are a Finn or a Foreigner.
Karri
December 15, 2008
Enrique:
>Even though a social ill such as racism exists, it is a good matter that some countries
>are addressing this problem. Think what kind of a country Canada would be if it
>taught totally different values?
Enrique, I’m not sure if the comment above was meant to be a reply to my comment earlier, and I’m not quite sure if I understood your comment correctly. But if you meant to say something like “Canada is doing something to prevent racism, and Finland isn’t,” then I have to say I disagree.
Contrary to some of the early comments here, were a couple people complained that there isn’t anyone in Finland to turn to is possible cases of racism, that’s not true. There is, for example, The Ombudsman for Minorities (http://www.ofm.fi), a government authority with the basic task of advancing the status and legal protection of ethnic minorities and foreigners as well as equality, non-discrimination and good ethnic relations in Finland.
In fact, the Finnish government’s official policies are well in line with other Western societies and their measures to tackle discrimination. I think that, for most part, the problem isn’t in the government or authorities’ official line. It’s more in cultural values that Finns may, in some cases, learn, personal experiences or the lack there of, and other “unofficial” perceptions. And that’s the same everywhere. Canada isn’t free of racism, either, and when it comes to the rights and treatment Native population of Canada or certain groups of migrant workers here in Canada, their treatment here has been appalling at times. So – again – I don’t think that straightforward, simple comparisons between different countries are entirely useful. The Canadian police, namely RCMP, for example, is known for scandals and brutalities, like the incident where a new, Polish immigrant got killed by four Taser-waving policemen at the Vancouver airport a bit over a year ago.
So back to FInland… There’s lot to fix there, and people’s attitudes – on both sides of the issue – need to grow, learn, get more mature. I think a lot of discussion around immigration and immigrants in Finland is very naive at the moment, stuck in a kind “yay-nay” type black and white arguments where both sides are just vehemently defending their dearest beliefs, because their afraid that they might “lose”. Well, the whole issue isn’t that simple. It’s not a matter of winning or losing. There are as many types of people as there are people in the world, and immigrants as well as natives are just people. Both sides could learn a bit of empathy, learn how to laugh at each other and themselves, and not take things so seriously all the time. I know, I know, that, of course, doesn’t help if you’ve just been a victim of racism or just silent discrimination, and I’m not saying that racism isn’t a serious issue.
Also, contrary to early comments here, there are several immigrants – black, Asian and white – in Finland who have got elected to local city councils. There could well be many more, but somehow here, in the beginning of this discussion, claimed that there aren’t any, which is simply not true. In Helsinki, there’s Zahra Abdulla, for example, whose a very well-spoken, smart Finnish politician with Somali roots. In Vantaa, Espoo, Tampere and Turku there are also elected immigrants in city councils. And, according to polls and statistics, most of their voters have consistently been native Finns. Not other immigrants, but native Finns. In fact, immigrants in Finland aren’t very politically active, even if they are citizens and have a right to vote. If you want to see more immigrants in politics, then why don’t you come up with a good agenda, or at least vote for some of the other immigrants, if you think they are worthy of getting elected. Politics is quite ‘white’ here in Canada too despite the large number of immigrants from all over the world here.
Enrique
December 15, 2008
–Enrique, I’m not sure if the comment above was meant to be a reply to my comment earlier, and I’m not quite sure if I understood your comment correctly. But if you meant to say something like “Canada is doing something to prevent racism, and Finland isn’t,” then I have to say I disagree.
My point here was that what kind of a countries such as Canada and Finland did not do anything to prevent racism/ethnic exclusion. Especially in recent years Finland has taken steps to correct this matter. Compared with 10 never mind 20 years, Finland has come a very long way. One of the most important legislation to be approved is the Equality Act, which I wrote about earlier.
–So back to FInland… There’s lot to fix there, and people’s attitudes – on both sides of the issue – need to grow, learn, get more mature. I think a lot of discussion around immigration and immigrants in Finland is very naive at the moment, stuck in a kind “yay-nay” type black and white arguments where both sides are just vehemently defending their dearest beliefs, because their afraid that they might “lose”.
I could not agree more with you. The debate is bipolar: for or against, win or lose etc. A lot more effort has to be made from people from all sides of the debate to bridge gaps and know more of each other.
Tiwaz
December 15, 2008
-Yes, right. You “respect” other people’s culture. Your comments show that.
Yes they do. In their country, I respect their culture and traditions. Unlike you idiots who demand appeasement when you move to Finland
-Your comparisons are getting weirder by the day. You should get an award for furthering the cause of cultural understanding among people. What about if I nominate you as president of the Advancement of Multiculturalism in Finland?
Then I will happily declare multiculturalism failure which it is.
What else is “two way road” but attempt to demand appeasement from Finns? It is little “better” than your average “You must respect my foreigner culture”-crap, but it is still attempt to demand that Finns must adjust to you. Now you are just trying to trade that you will respect one of our traditions, in our society, in exchange for us to replace part of our culture with part of your.
Idiot, Finnish culture is not for sale! We do NOT barter pieces of it with foreigners to make you lazy asses more comfortable.
Perhaps you do, perhaps you are spineless and lack pride in your culture and are willing to commodity to trade. We are not spineless. We do not lack pride.
-Do you know the law and rights of other in Finland? It appears that you are very much in the dark about it.
Yes, I do. And I see foreigners treated equally. They are “no speak, no behave”-idiots, who are then stunned when they are treated like “no speak, no behave”-idiots. They expect us Finns to bend over backwards to appease you.
In essence, you demand preferential treatment. You refuse to accept that to be able to get somewhere as easily as Finns, you have to learn to do as Finns do.
You need to learn the language, because someone who cannot communicate with 90+% of people around them are worthless to employers. You need to learn how things are done, because if you can’t get along with 90+% of people without always causing cultural chafing you are again worthless.
But you idiots do not want to go through the effort. You come up with this multicultural stupidity and demand appeasement.
Lontoolainen
December 15, 2008
Thanks for the great discussion.
I am a foreigner living in a very small town in South Carelia, and have to say I have not experienced any Racism first hand, mabye this has something to do with not looking very different from your average Finn:) I get called ”Britti” at the local bar though…and free drinks, so I dont mind the indignation.
A new Immigrant reception centre is being opened close by in a neighbouring town. I am sure you can imagine the townsfolks comments in the local newspaper..
”we didn’t give this place to the Russians, why start giving it away now?” ”why cant they build the thing somewhere else?, we dont want any rapes here” etc, etc..
These feelings are common in small towns in the area, and most probably most of Finland. I understand that locals here have in general never spoken, knowingly, to a foreigner.. and it is truely a difficult issue.
The state could do more, education for older Citizens ( 35+) is important, involving newcomers in local organisations and getting Finns to SPEAK to, and know outsiders are key points. You cannot expect homogenous people to become multicultural overnight, especially out here in the sticks
As for work, well living in a small place it is difficult. Long bouts of unemployment are a problem. As a EU citizen not applying for Finnish Citizenship, I get no state support when not working….which is hard, but fair. I think the Jobcentre should offer lessons in Finnish, but it is not available here.
As for job discrimination, of course the employer would rather hire someone who knows the language better than me, its easier for them and less hassle…I dont see it as being a ‘racist’ issue, just frustrating. I have been here 2 years and can speak moderate Finnish, I have not been to any language courses, there arent any withing 60km (a long way when you dont have a driving card) of the place. I do my best with the books I have…it’s a hard language!, dont let any one tell you different.
Finns are Finns, and they have faults like anyone else. I learned a long time ago that just because a Finn wont say ”good morning” to me doesnt mean they are rude, or even a racist!…some people are more open than others. I get dirty looks all the time, its normal procedure. Then I get a ”hyvä huomenta!” and it makes my day.
I dont like to generalize, but there is a problem with ignorance, and minor racism in the form of stupid sarcastic comments. This will happen if the only foreigners you see are on the TV or Internet, its about education and interaction. I cant wait for the Immigrant centre to be built!…I just wish the government would do more to ease local worries and create a better environment for the new arrivals. The problem is, most dont like change in any form.
Enrique
December 15, 2008
Hi Lontoolainen and welcome to Migrant Tales. It must be pretty interesting to live in a small town in South Carelia. It would be interesting to hear what the townspeople do when the Immigrant center opens its doors.
As you said, education plays an important role. The 35-plus-age group you speak of is a pretty interesting group since they grew up during the cold war period in Finland, when the country was isolated geopolitically and where nationalism and exclusion of non-Finns was the rule. That has now changed with EU membership and we are moving in the right direction. I believe that many of those who claim that “foreigners will destroy Finnish culture” are those who grew up during this period. Some of these born between 1944 and 1995 have had dear little contact with foreigners or seen how whites treat blacks through 70s sitcoms such as Archie Bunker. But the good news is that matters are changing.
intternetnetsi
December 15, 2008
-I get called ”Britti” at the local bar though…and free drinks, so I dont mind the indignation.
Thats how things here works, youre britti, ryssä, hurri, neekeri, vinosilmä, savolainen, tamperelainen or whatever. If you show that you want to fit in then youre our britti etc.
People are curious about you and if you dont offend our culture or demand something and yell racism you will do well.
What most oppose is that for example you demand carpet in toilet because youre brit, well say fck off and if you then yell racism you find yourself in wery odd place.
Here is something to read. http://hommaforum.org/index.php?topic=97.0
“When multiculturalists imagine the future, I suspect they have something in mind like the glorious multiplicity of restaurants serving all the cuisines of the world which is now to be found in most large cities. You can eat Thai on Monday, Italian on Tuesday, Szechuan on Wednesday, Hungarian on Thursday, and so forth, without any strain whatever.”
And you can write in english in there too, most probably understand and can answer in english.
Calculator Man
December 15, 2008
Hey Enrique,
I would stop talking with those guys. It is really waste of time. There will be no outcome. It doesn’t matter what you tell them, they will always find something against you. They have never been in the position of an immigrant so how do you expect them to understand you? I think I would act similar if I would sit my whole life at home and have no contact with foreigners. So just ignore them.
Lontoolainen
December 15, 2008
Hey Enrique, I agree with you on the isolation during the cold war period. Urho Kekkonen ‘appeasement’ with Russia had both good and bad points, mostly bad when looking in retrospect.
The situation in Finland is quite unique, and should be treated as such. Especially in the countryside, the city and small towns here are often butting heads with everything.
The difference between Immigration problems in Finland and the UK is massive.
In my opinion, the best way to get along is to fit in. Speak Finnish as much as possible, I always try and remember that I am a guest here whenever something untoward happens due to me being a foreigner. It does not do to make enemies in a small town anywhere.
Yes there are problems, and the sooner things change the better. But isolating the locals and ignoring their concerns will only cause resentment. I dont want the same situation arising here as in the UK, with the rise of nationalist groups like the BNP.
Finland is a young country, and the immigration issue is also. Brussels may well think they know what is best for Finland, but how much does the average Finn or Englishman know about the EU?, in my experience almost nothing.
It is quite funny how the local farmers are willing to take EU subsidies, complain and moan when they might get cut…but then as soon as the EU does anything positive for change that might affect their little corner of the world, all hell breaks loose.
Internettsesti – ”Thats how things here works, youre britti, ryssä, hurri, neekeri, vinosilmä, savolainen, tamperelainen or whatever. If you show that you want to fit in then youre our britti etc.´´
Very true, if you are from Helsinki here you will have almost as many problems as a foreign immigrant. If you fit in, you are their little pet outsider. If you are opinionated like I am, sometimes its best to keep your mouth shut on certain issues around certain people.
Try watching the film comedy ”poliisin poika” from 1997.
Great blog, its a shame so many idiots like to post on here!.
Enrique
December 16, 2008
Hi Lontoolainen, thanks for the insightful level-headed comments. I am optimistic about Finland. There are some in Finland that are fueling hatred at foreigners in order to get votes. I was surprised that in Spain Mariano Rajoy, the president of the Populist Party, tried to use it in the last general elections without success. One of the most interesting (and sad) things to watch is how people/politicians state that they are not against refugees and are not racists when in fact they are but dress it another way. I think that anyone who bashes people in a weaker social position for their political benefit to be cowards. They should pick on groups their own size.
–Very true, if you are from Helsinki here you will have almost as many problems as a foreign immigrant. If you fit in, you are their little pet outsider. If you are opinionated like I am, sometimes its best to keep your mouth shut on certain issues around certain people.
This is so true. I like the comment “pet foreigner.” As you know, in our culture and in many others dissent is encouraged. Being a devil’s advocate is healthy; poor decisions emerge when there is too much consensus and yes-men. That is why some who read this blog are outraged because it is not only a Finn who thinks differently on a sensitive subject but a “foreigner.” On the other side of the coin, there are many Finns who would not buy this consensus line.
–Great blog, its a shame so many idiots like to post on here!
Some of these so-called “idiots” bring their special flavor. One of the things I don’t like to do is sensor people. I have, however, had to moderate and omit a lot of comments that I considered offensive.
Tiwaz
December 16, 2008
-This is so true. I like the comment “pet foreigner.” As you know, in out culture and in many others dissent is encouraged. Being a devil’s advocate is healthy; poor decisions emerge when there is too much consensus and yes-men. That is why some who read this blog are outraged because it is not only a Finn who thinks differently on a sensitive subject but a “foreigner.” On the other side of the coin, there are many Finns who would not buy this consensus line.
And which society has managed to get further in less time?
Dissent wastes resources on petty squabbling and useless arguments. Dissent is very anathema of efficiency. Finnish society works so well because traditionally when line is chosen, everyone works towards it.
That is why every single time when there are two opposing teams, one with principle of agreeing on something and then going with it, and another with dissenting. One pulling the rope together wins, every single time. Unity equals strength, infighting is just recipe for disaster.
By the way, do not refer to yourself as Finn. Merriam-Webster definition.
[quote]
Main Entry:
Finn Listen to the pronunciation of Finn
Pronunciation:
\ˈfin\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Swedish Finne, from Old Swedish; akin to Old Norse Finnar Finns, Old English Finnas
Date:
before 12th century
1: a member of a people speaking Finnish or a Finnic language2 a: a native or inhabitant of Finland b: one who is of Finnish descent
[/quote]
Out of those categories, you are indeed inhabitant. But in every other way you are not.
It would be preferable that you would not use term Finn of yourself here, while technically entitled to, as it gives false image of you.
It would be better to refer to yourself as citizen of Finland, as it would not have other connotations of word Finn.
Why your comments are not given weight you think they deserve, is that you still do not grasp Finnish culture. Different culture, different values and different weight these values have. Not to mention how you deliver your comments.
Idiot immigrant might not understand that you just can’t sell your ideas in Finland like you would in USA for example. If you try, you easily fail. And then whine racism due to your own stupidity.
Lontoolainen
December 16, 2008
Some of these so-called “idiots” bring their special flavor. One of the things I don’t like to do is sensor people. I have, however, had to moderate and omit a lot of comments that I considered offensive.
Of course
I am all for freedom of speech, something that seems to be slipping here in Finland with recent issues over internet sensorship. But would be interesting to have a discussion like this in person away from the internet. When having to look someone in the face and take part in live debate, I wonder how many posters would moderate their opinions or not take part at all.
Enrique
December 16, 2008
You are right Lontoolainen. Sometimes it would be great to discuss things in person and see the gestures on people’s faces. Many would not make the comments they write if they did not do so anonymously. I am not an anonymous in this blog. It would be a bit like being accused of a crime and covering my face with a jacket when reporters try to take pictures of me.
Calculator Man
December 16, 2008
Was wondering if all the Foreigners would leave Finland, who would clean here and drive Buses (Jobs which the average Foreigners get here)? I guess then it would not work here so well anymore. This Tiwaz is so funny
Enrique
December 16, 2008
That would mean the end of many good things in this country. Some Finns would be required to do the menial jobs. Tiwaz is a sad case. He is not funny.
Calculator Man
December 16, 2008
Do you know Mämmi? This black stuff Finns eat during Easter. Read about the origins of it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A4mmi#History
Enrique
December 16, 2008
Pretty interesting and another example of how interrelated we are culturally. The interesting question to ask is why it is SO important for some to stress differences? Some of the people in this blog take it to an obsessive level. I understand that it is important for people to have an identity and be proud of it. What I do not understand is why they are always stressing these types of walls when they meet people from different cultures and throw a few unfounded comments here and there only to reinforce their stereotypes.
When two people meet, don’t they try to look at things such as COMMON interests to build a relationship?
Calculator Man
December 16, 2008
That’s a good question. We have to wait for Tiwaz answer.
I also learned nice things here from the Finnish Culture, however I only take those pieces out of it which I found usable for myself. Thus, I am further developing my own culture.
Was wondering how long it takes for him to understand that people can also learn from other cultures
Enrique
December 16, 2008
I always said you have a head on your shoulder. “Developing our own culture” is not only fun, but also highly enriching.
intternetnetsi
December 17, 2008
http://www.adressit.com/ulkomaalaislaki
And reply from foreigner
http://www.ilkka.fi/Article.jsp?article=388458&Title=Pakolaisasiantuntija+puolustaa+Thorsin+ulkomaalaislakia
RRACISM!
Thats how it goes, whatever you say against something what has to do with foreigners you get racist/nazi/xenophobic etc yelled to you. That is multuculturalism what we see, that has nothing to do with normal migration.
Its *nism like communism, facism or other other religious like shit what doesnt ask what common people wants. And our beliefs is bashed by greenred who currently are noisy part in news.
Like you have accused that i dont have foreign friends and havent travelled and of course i have to be young and uneducad…. Look who are most against, people who see real immigration problems and who are travelled.
There goes your “meeting helps”
There goes your “education helps”
Well education helps so they can get better salary and with more money you dont have to live with problems so its easy to say there is no problems or when youre in still in school so you dont see…
Im sick in tired that if i say that muslims believe 1500 y old pedofile and thats stupid, woman are equal, behave and respect police/ambulace/fire deparment is racist..
I can bash christianity, finnish culture and white heterosexual male, all others i get some stamp on me.
Thats not right, if minority has bad habits i will tell about those. And if your multiculturalism is bad i will tell it.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/test i got
Economic Left/Right: -4.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.21
Thats near of Gandhi.
Terveisin phobinen natsi ja rasisti….
PS: Please give to me real data about richness.
Tiwaz
December 17, 2008
Because it is these differences which cause conflict.
And conflict is what brings suffering. Cultural conflict specially, as we see everywhere.
Even Enrique admits that cultural conflict comes with misery, violence, poverty and suffering. All he can say that it would not be result if nothing bad took place.
In short, he thinks it is possible to have multicultural society if absolutely nothing comes and causes problems. That is why I call him an i***.
Always there will be something that goes wrong. Our current culture and society is under attack by you idiots who think like Enrique, that multiculturalism is possible.
But unlike multiculturalism, monocultural Finland is not showing signs of falling apart. Because it WORKS.
That is huge difference between monocultural and multicultural society. Monocultural works, it does not fall apart first time there are issues.
By the way i******, you might want to reconsider your argument that immigrants drive bus or clean up garbage. Most of those jobs are filled by Finns.
If every immigrant disappeared tomorrow, effect would not be dramatic. Problems? Sure. But nothing as major as tends to take place in multicultural societies.
Remember, we have more unemployed than we have foreigners here.
And finally, in case your rather thick skulls still have not figured it out. I have nothing against immigrants, I do have much against immigrants who refuse to accept that…
In Finland, do as the Finns do. If we want to import your culture, trust me. We would have done that by now. That we have not, is clear sign that we do not.
Tiwaz
December 17, 2008
By the way, about your comment how “your culture” supports dissent.
Well, in that case it is no wonder that Argentina is such pathetic piece of land.
You have had that land all for yourself to dissent over from 1816.
And behold!
You have almost 10 times the land area (330 000 vs 2 770 000)
You have eight times the population (5 million vs 40 million)
Net migration rate of ZERO compared to 0,73 for Finland. (If multiculturalism is so good… Why Argentina is so undesired target for immigration… )
Hell you are way ahead of us in infant mortality though! Almost four times as much.
(11 vs 3,5 for Finland)
Seven times the HIV/AIDS prevalence. (0,7 Agry vs >0,1 Finns)
Well, at least you are saving in something. Education that is. 3,8% from GDP vs 6,4% for Finland.
Well, fortunately you guys have lots of natural resources. 100 years ago you guys were one of the richest countries in the world. And multiculturalism has further enriched you, leading to 60% of Argentinians being below poverty line in the nineties! But who cares about material wealth when you have MULTICULTURALISM!
Not Argentinians. With your 526 billion USD GDP (2007) against pitiful 188 we have here in Finland you appear to be in good position though.
Until we look what it means with your huge population…
As a result, Argentina has 13100 USD GDP per capita.
Greedy and evil Finns dare to almost triple that, to 36 000 USD.
Which means that (2007 again) 8,7% of Argentinians were without job. Finland has to take second place with 6,7%.
Because of that, multiculturally enriched Argentina has come to conclusion that making positive budget is stupidity.
Resulting in following situation:
revenues: $48.99 billion
expenditures: $61.23 billion (2007 est.)
Gosh.. It is good thing you are so enriched by multiculturalism, else that might appear to be pitiful number. Considering that tiny Finland with it’s evil monocultural society and unwashed barbarian natives had these numbers:
revenues: $62.02 billion
expenditures: $58.16 billion (2007)
We actually could have balanced your budget… Not bad for monocultural racist society which is not enriched by multiculturalism.
But hey, at least you can still loan money. You are only in debt for 51% of your GDP. Finns have some way to go with 35%.
But fortunately there is always inflation, in which Argentina has progressed to enviable level of 8,8% (officially, actual might be double that). Finns have so much to learn with 2,5%. What do you mean inflation is not good?
But there is shining light in Argentina too. You only have 135 billion external debt. Finland has to struggle with it’s 270 billions for a while longer. Then again, negative numbers at end of budget are rarely good for paying debts…
And because there are only 42 television broadcast stations and 444 repeaters, compared to 120 and 431 for Finland which has smaller country… Argentinians are not slaves of television! And they still enjoy the analogue output, unlike poor Finns who were one of the first nations in the world to switch to digital.
Well, this is odd… Argentina with huge coastline and so forth should be great maritime power. But you guys only have merchant marine of half the size of Finnish. 48 vs 96. But at least you have 5 times the petroleum tankers. It should be some console considering most of economy is built around that. Finns have 24 times RORO capability though, might have something to do with exporting technology and machinery instead of oil and wheat.
I can SO see why Finland should learn from Argentina.
You guys have achieved SO much more in 200 years than we have in less than 100.
No, seriously. You are so advanced and stable country with no dictators or such. We really should learn from country so vastly superior to ours.
Calculator Man
December 17, 2008
Tiwaz: You should maybe read Newspaper sometimes. Most of the Foreigners are cleaning your toilets here:
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Immigration+Minister+tries+her+hand+at+hotel+cleaning/1135240242968
Even the Immigration Minister says in this article: “She sees a danger that a two-tier labour market might be emerging – if it has not come about already. “
Calculator Man
December 17, 2008
Finland: 270 billion debts / 5 million inhabitants = 54.000 per person
Argentina: 135 billion debts / 40 million inhabitants = 3.375 per person
Well-beeing build on debts
Enrique
December 17, 2008
Onkko, aka Ghandi, I think you are exaggerating here. The Kaleva link is no longer available.
It is interesting that the defense you use is that every time a foreigner claims racism/nazism/xenophobia that is wrong. This shows how threatened and how poor relations are in some cases. These claims are ALLEGED because they have not been proven.
Certainly if you have a country where about 20% of the foreigners are unemployed, face discrimination, ethnic distance, misunderstanding and have also little knowledge and chances to progress in Finland, there is going to be a big social problem. Remember when unemployment hit 19% in the early 1990s? Remember the atmosphere, desperation and fear? Did people function normally back then?
And please do not answer that last comment by asking foreigners to leave the country “if they don’t like it.” Certainly people have a right to air their complaints. It is one of the principles of a democratic society. You must have leaned that in your civics class.
Enrique
December 17, 2008
You are not being very imaginative. These are the same argument peppered with insults. Having foreigners in a country, bicultural people, and being influenced by other cultures is a constant process that you and I cannot stop because it is the natural way things work. Living and believing otherwise is confining oneself in a cultural time warp.
Enrique
December 17, 2008
I don’t live by countries but by things that I have learned from societies. I am way passed that stage. If you want to “attack me,” use another argument. I am happy that you have taken the time to learn about some statistics of Argentina.
Enrique
December 17, 2008
Yes, you are right Calculator Man.
Enrique
December 17, 2008
It’s not the expenditure but did the Nordic welfare system spend so much money on some Finns to have such backward ideas about other cultures?? I think that is the question and highlights the utter failure of the system.
intternetnetsi
December 17, 2008
From your “promised land”
“Quebec demands immigrants sign off on ‘shared values’”
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=917628
Other promised land. “Discrimination against white males will soon be encouraged” http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0%2C21985%2C24771759-2862%2C00.html
“It’s not the expenditure but did the Nordic welfare system spend so much money on some Finns to have such backward ideas about other cultures??”
Or its so that some cultures are backwards and we dont brainwash people.
“Tiwaz: You should maybe read Newspaper sometimes. Most of the Foreigners are cleaning your toilets here:”
Tiwaz doesnt live in helsinki and helsinki isnt finland. And thats exactly problem, with shitty pay and conditions they wont get any finn to do that. That leads to nondesirable way.
“Onkko, aka Ghandi, I think you are exaggerating here. The Kaleva link is no longer available.”
Am i? what about “A DRIVER spent two nights in jail after being accused of “revving his car in a racist manner”.” in UK.
Think it, its like thought crime in neuvostoliitto.
Lets take 3 examples. someone spills something on you.
Vitun nutipää.
Vitun hörökorva.
Vitun neekeri.
Now quess what one can be punishable and tell the difference.
I also want you to come and tell about richness of multiculture in http://hommaforum.org/ what is made for debate about multiculturalism and such.
Enrique
December 18, 2008
–Or its so that some cultures are backwards and we dont brainwash people.
There isn’t such a thing as advanced and backwards cultures. That kind of thinking took place in anthropology (historical evolutionism) in the 19th century. It was a way to justify colonialism and the exploitation of others. The Swedes and Russians must have used similar arguments to dominate and justify their occupation of Finland.
The third insult you gave is racist. How can you ever learn about black people if you have such a lowly view of them? Like in every ethnic group, there are great men who have emerged. To name just a few Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, Barak Obama, etc..
intternetnetsi
December 18, 2008
3rd insult is not racist, neekeri is just a black man, nothing to do with racism and nothing to do with view of them. Arent there great bald or hörökorva people? (for bald check kekkonen).
That was to prove your racism and i did it, you think black people are somehow inferior and need more protection than bald or hörökorva people. They are humans like all of us and have change to prove theyre worth like i had i to do even im white heterosexual male.
Im lapp and i dont see any racism or discrimination if someone call me lapp. Most of people know where im from when i open my mouth but thats not problem. We laugh on stereotypes and ridicule those, i tell that my igloo melted so i had to move south. Like once black man worked with us and said “ei tämä ole mustankaan miehen hommaa” and thats from “ei ole valkoisen miehen hommaa” what is to point slavery when white didnt have to do hard work. He wasnt bigot like you and he had sense of humour, finnish humour. Or like one russian said “perkele, ryssä ryssi” when he did mistake. Same russian told me he is 11th russian
As long there is over protected minorities there cant be equality.
-There isn’t such a thing as advanced and backwards cultures.
Ok, ill kill and cook you and eat you. thats part of some cultures. Is that ok? Your skull makes good decoration.
Enrique
December 18, 2008
–That was to prove your racism and i did it, you think black people are somehow inferior and need more protection than bald or hörökorva people. They are humans like all of us and have change to prove theyre worth like i had i to do even im white heterosexual male.
That does not prove anything.
–Im lapp and i dont see any racism or discrimination if someone call me lapp. Most of people know where im from when i open my mouth but thats not problem. We laugh on stereotypes and ridicule those, i tell that my igloo melted so i had to move south.
Are you a Finn who is from Lapland or a Saami? Sense of humor has its limits. If you are a white, protestand Finn from Lapland certainly there is a difference when you are talking about a black from Sudan, for example. I am certain that Sudanese can laugh at themselves but this is in the ingroup. It is not an outsider with little knowledge of what may offend them.
–Ok, ill kill and cook you and eat you. thats part of some cultures. Is that ok? Your skull makes good decoration.
That is an extreme example, Onkko. In some cultures, like the Guayakis of Paraguay, white people killed them off simply because they were cannibals. There are three types of cannibals: endocannibals (eat members of their group when they die to free the soul), exocannibals (eat outsiders. Some believed that by eating their victim/soldier they would gain their strength) and autocannibalism (the Iroquois forced their prisoners to eat parts of their body). So, as you can see, little knowledge of a group led to the mass destruction of another group (cannibals) because in our culture eating human flesh is a taboo.
Tiwaz
December 18, 2008
Imbecilator, most foreigners clean toilets yes, but most toilets are not cleaned by foreigners.
-It is interesting that the defense you use is that every time a foreigner claims racism/nazism/xenophobia that is wrong. This shows how threatened and how poor relations are in some cases. These claims are ALLEGED because they have not been proven.
Certainly if you have a country where about 20% of the foreigners are unemployed, face discrimination, ethnic distance, misunderstanding and have also little knowledge and chances to progress in Finland, there is going to be a big social problem. Remember when unemployment hit 19% in the early 1990s? Remember the atmosphere, desperation and fear? Did people function normally back then?
And please do not answer that last comment by asking foreigners to leave the country “if they don’t like it.” Certainly people have a right to air their complaints. It is one of the principles of a democratic society. You must have leaned that in your civics class.
Maybe those idiots screaming racism should take a look in the mirror and ask how THEY looked in the eyes of Finns when they did whatever they did.
But of course blame is never on immigrants. They are wonderful individuals who should never be grouped together. Finns on other hand may be grouped together because Finns in your foreigner eyes are inferior.
Calculator Man
December 18, 2008
Of course we are wonderful, that’s why we are here and you are still at the same place where you have been your whole live because you are afraid to learn something new, goat brain!
Enrique
December 18, 2008
–But of course blame is never on immigrants. They are wonderful individuals who should never be grouped together. Finns on other hand may be grouped together because Finns in your foreigner eyes are inferior.
I wonder what your shrink would say about this comment. Hmmm…
elGreco
December 19, 2008
intternetnetsi Says:
You generalize to much. For most people religion is just tradition and you find extremist on every part of the spectra. Who was shaking hands with the islamic political party? Finnish politicians. The Muslims I know are scared of this party.
to Tiwaz: I remember the racism and hate towards foreigners in the 80s way before the depression” Lama” and when there were only 20.000 foreigners living in Finland.
Finland has a problem with people, not with goods. No country has so many pizzerias as Finland. Nobody eats as many bananas and drinks so much coffee as the Fins and neither bananas grow in Finland nor coffee.
elGreco
December 19, 2008
“Neekeri” according to Sanakirja.org:
afrikkalaisperäisestä tummaihoisesta henkilöstä käytetty hieman vanhahtava sana. Sanaa pidetään nykyään yleisesti epäkorrektina tai halventavana, vaikka monet käyttävätkin sitä yhä.
And from Wikipedia:
In Finland, neekeri used to be considered a neutral term for black people, but the term has gradually fell out of favor through the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s. Today the neutral term to define a black person is musta (literally “black”). There is a Finnish pastry traditionally called Neekerinsuukko (literally “negro’s kiss”). Due to its arguably offensive character, the name has fallen out of use.
Tiwaz
December 19, 2008
So elGreco? Who cares? Is your culture dependant on bananas?
And Enrique, I do not need a shrink. Army found me quite stable and functional individual.
You just try to paint everyone who does not sign your multicultural wonderfulness as racist nazi lunatics. When you fail to give ANY proof of superiority of multiculturalism.
Calculator Man
December 19, 2008
Guess Army is happy to get people nowadays
Enrique
December 19, 2008
I meant that your comment shows that you feel inferior to foreigners. That’s not the way things are.
Tiwaz
December 20, 2008
I have no feeling of inferiority, Enrique, quite the opposite. Looking at how horribly you multiculturalists have failed in your nationbuilding, I feel rather secure and superior considering how my country has managed to become wealthy, stable and well functioning.
Which is why I oppose your suggestions of bringing that failure to Finland.
My approach to foreign cultures is one which is healthy, I respect them in their native lands. And expect them to respect mine in my country. Try it someday. Your arrogant “behole barbarians and lear from me”-attitude is sick to be honest.
Enrique
December 20, 2008
–My approach to foreign cultures is one which is healthy, I respect them in their native lands.
You have a very myopic and illegal view of other cultures. Read Finnish and EU law and then come to talk to me about “respect” for other cultures. You only respect others if they “conform” to your very narrow world. Times have changed. We live in the new century.
intternetnetsi
December 20, 2008
“You generalize to much. For most people religion is just tradition and you find extremist on every part of the spectra. Who was shaking hands with the islamic political party? Finnish politicians. The Muslims I know are scared of this party.”
Of course they were shaking hands because if they werent they would be racists and islamophopics…
Tell them to say that a loud and tell them to stop harassing our traditions. Tell them to stop asking freedoms like separate swimming time. I know most of this because of stupid greenred understanders like enrique but only immigrants themself have real power to stop it without being branded nazis.
And of course i generalize because thats how you look masses. There is no individual in masses, just statistics.
There is little cartoon to enrique http://www.kolumbus.fi/jik/mku1.htm and something to think too http://hommaforum.org/index.php?topic=452.0
And about that word neekeri, its not racists. Neekerinpusu and lakupekka arent racists. Those sweets made connection to me that neekeri is good. Racism? That dropped when Illman and friends started to yell racism on those, they have to be bad if they cant stand a sweet.
And as one said.
Touhussa pitää toisaalta käyttää myös järkeä. Onko huumori nyt sitten todellista rasismia? No, kai se voi olla. Jos vitsailee tyhmistä miehistä, se on miesvihaa. Jos vitsailee blondeista ja bruneteista, se on sovinismia ja naisvihaa. Jos vitsailee uskovaisista, se on ties mitä uskonnollista vainoa ja sortoa. Jos vitsailee vanhuksista, se on ikäsyrjintää. Jos vitsailee etnisyydestä tai rodusta, se on rasismia… Eih… tai sitten kaiken voisi ottaa huumorilla, koska se on nimenomaan huumoria, vetämättä hernettä poikittain nenuliin.
Enrique
December 20, 2008
–Of course they were shaking hands because if they werent they would be racists and islamophopics…
Nah, I think it has to do with democracy.
What may be humorous to you many not be to another person. There was also a shoe polish in the 1960s called “Congo.” All these types of brand names do is maintain stereotypes about other groups. The people who named these brands probably had very rudimentary views of blacks. Did it come from Tarzan books?
elGreco
December 21, 2008
Tiwaz: Just take the coffee and bananas away from the Fins and you see the Fins going bananas.
Finland does not live in a vacuum. So what do you call culture?
Anything is either related to a product or an idea.
Literature
Arts
Music
Industry
Languages
All those were influenced by other people and other cultures.
Even your famous Karjalan Piiraka need foreign grown rice
Enrique
December 21, 2008
elGreco, your point exemplifies the global village. “Monoculturalism” is a myth inhabiting in between the ears.
elGreco
December 21, 2008
Culture:
1A particular society at a particular time and place
2The tastes in art and manners that are favored by a social group
3All the knowledge and values shared by a society
4(biology) the growing of microorganisms in a nutrient medium (such as gelatin or agar)
5The attitudes and behavior that are characteristic of a particular social group or organization
===============================================================
To 1) time is moving and when I come her the town had only 3 Pizzerias and only in Stockmann you could buy chili and it was in 2 gram packages. Now you can buy by kilos
To 2) I don’t think that all Fins have the same taste in food, music, clothing or have the same manners
To 3)I think this is very global. Get a education, a good job, get married have children, own a car and a house and don’t lie or steal or at least don’t get caught in it
To 5) Could depend on the weather. In more sunny places people tend to be more social and more positive and in more darker and colder places people drink more alcohol, are more depressed and are less social unless you are Irish and live in Irland
=====================================================
There are many factors that can and do influence mentality and there are local differences. Differences between sub groups and social classes. Much depends on upbringing and on the individual itself.
Peoples opinion tended to be formed by local events and the local media but our food is very international, our music, the films we watch, the news are from around the world ( filtered by the local stations )
The European enlightenment was inspired by Greek philosophers, mathematicians and historians. So even the hundreds of years back peoples mind were influenced by other people from a different nation and on top of that by people who were dead since 2000 years.
Tiwaz
December 22, 2008
-You have a very myopic and illegal view of other cultures. Read Finnish and EU law and then come to talk to me about “respect” for other cultures. You only respect others if they “conform” to your very narrow world. Times have changed. We live in the new century.
I respect them in THEIR country. Here, in my country, I expect them to respect MY culture.
You are the narrow minded Enrique, Like I pointed at another post of yours. You are one who tries to push his culture to others no matter where you go.
-Tiwaz: Just take the coffee and bananas away from the Fins and you see the Fins going bananas.
Finland does not live in a vacuum. So what do you call culture?
Anything is either related to a product or an idea.
Literature
Arts
Music
Industry
Languages
All those were influenced by other people and other cultures.
Even your famous Karjalan Piiraka need foreign grown rice
So? I never said Finnish culture does not change.
But what you do not grasp is that it changes to fit FINNS. Not you foreigners. Of course you lazy, arrogant and/or stupid foreigners would want us to switch our culture to one you prefer. But what you do not grasp is that we have OUR culture, one that has values which often enough are nothing like your values. We do not want your values, we do not want your traditions. We might take bits and pieces of them if we see them fit, and then CHANGE them to fit our existing culture.
But we do NOT barter with you, we do NOT accept compromises where we remove parts of our culture and replace them with yours to have you accept some parts of our culture in OUR country.
Nor do we copypaste whatever your culture considers important and use it to replace existing piece of our culture.
In Finland, do as Finns do. Because else you are just lazy, arrogant bastard who tries for force his ways to natives of another country.
Enrique
December 22, 2008
–I respect them in THEIR country. Here, in my country, I expect them to respect MY culture.
If you have family you should know how to gain respect. You cannot force anyone to respect you. If you ask me, I think many foreigners that live in this country respect Finland and consider it their home. What they DON’T respect are things like discrimination, exclusion and racism.
Tiwaz
December 22, 2008
-If you have family you should know how to gain respect. You cannot force anyone to respect you. If you ask me, I think many foreigners that live in this country respect Finland and consider it their home. What they DON’T respect are things like discrimination, exclusion and racism.
Maybe they should stop trying to exclude themselves from Finnish society, maybe they should LEARN to behave and speak and maybe they should not be such racists themselves.
Calculator Man
December 22, 2008
Leave Finns alone!!!! :
Calculator Man
December 22, 2008
Could be Tiwaz
Enrique
December 22, 2008
What a laugh but the person must really take it seriously. Here is a response: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVcmHcHIsYc&NR=1
alien
December 23, 2008
Merry Christmas to all of you my friends. I wish you a happy year full of joy and warmness. May god bless all of us to be capable of loving each other and celebrating Christmas without any hard feelings. I guess any one who has shared his opinion with us, whether we like it or not, has been bold enough to express him/herself and that me means that we are all good people. The wicked people never say what they think. On the other hand good people believe in what they say and therefore they share it with others.
God bless Finland and every other country in this world with whatever culture they have.
Long live friendship and long live humanity.
Enrique
December 23, 2008
Thank you alien! That was a very beautiful gesture you sent to all of us. I also wish you a Merry Christmas and much success and happiness in 2009.
One of the reasons why this blog as succeeded at attracting many people is because we want to hear their opinions. How can we solve a problem if we do not even know what others think? Thank you for posting your thoughts, alien. I have enjoyed reading them as well as those of others. Most importantly, I have learned a lot.
intternetnetsi
December 24, 2008
Here you see what “racism” is about.
elGreco
December 28, 2008
“Here you see what “racism” is about.”?
Satire?
Here is one other Finnish satire
Finnish Waffen SS Volunteers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe-qooJGwfo
Celebrating the Waffen SS a Nazi German creation for jokers
You are right intternetnatzi, racism is in the mind of the paranoid AND those beaten up by a group of Neo Nazis
elGreco
December 28, 2008
“Maybe they should stop trying to exclude themselves from Finnish society, maybe they should LEARN to behave and speak and maybe they should not be such racists themselves.”
tiwaz this argument rings a bell somehow….
Now I remember. Girl got raped in a park. Comment: “She was asking for it. Why did she walk alone in a park and then so lightly dressed.”
http://helsinki.palloliitto.fi/taustasivut/artikkeliarkisto/?num=12074
So it’s not black or white. It’s black, white and some grey
Enrique
December 28, 2008
That comment by Tiwaz that foreigners are excluding themselves from Finnish society should be turned around: “Are Finns excluding foreigners from Finnish society?”
What is the use of nationalism if it only fills you with a lot of hot air and encourages you to pick on people that are weaker than you?
intternetnetsi
December 28, 2008
-Here is one other Finnish satire
Finnish Waffen SS Volunteers
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomalainen_SS-pataljoona read and learn, not everything what has to do with nazi germany means its nazism. http://www.holocaustinfo.org/faq/suomessa/ there is some more info. Those finnish man went to fight against russia. And show me neo-nazi groups in finland, i would like to see, no siitoin please because hes clown. And there is one good example about horrible racists attack, read and learn. http://reinoblog.blogspot.com/2006/11/kajaani-maailman-rasistisin-kaupunki.html
intternetnetsi
December 29, 2008
-What is the use of nationalism if it only fills you with a lot of hot air and encourages you to pick on people that are weaker than you?
Weaker? may i laugh? They have allmighty racism card what is played in every turn. And parts of goverment playing with them be reason of why they got offended whatever. Did you know that iirc 2 or 3 of 6 polices interviewed didnt even think that finn can be target of racists attack?
And i have seen succesfull immigrants but they didnt hide in their communities with racism card.
You may forget that we were oppressed for millennium and still partly are, do you think we really look with good eye for rise of some groups wanting something over what we have? I think we will get rid of this swedish apartheid in this decade and we dont need new one called multiculturalism.
Did you know most prone to multiculturalism are communists who were behind of suomettuminen.
Enrique
December 31, 2008
–And i have seen succesfull immigrants but they didnt hide in their communities with racism card.
Certainly not everything is racism. However, racism exists and people must speak out against it just like any other social ill. There are many definitions and forms of racism. “Ikärasismi” is not racism. It is discrimination because of age. However, if a person is discriminated because of his ethnic background, that is a clear case of racism. Racism comes from the word “race,” even if we can debate that such a classification exists.
intternetnetsi
December 31, 2008
Problem is overuse of racism, there is some always anywhere.
Friend of mine who is employer dont hire certain nationalities because they use racism too much. Is that good for them?
Tiwaz
January 2, 2009
-That comment by Tiwaz that foreigners are excluding themselves from Finnish society should be turned around: “Are Finns excluding foreigners from Finnish society?”
What is the use of nationalism if it only fills you with a lot of hot air and encourages you to pick on people that are weaker than you?
No, you cannot turn it around. Of course, you in your sick mind always do. Reality is this, this country is Finland. Country of Finns. Our society is built around our rules, traditions and values. We do not change it so that some fruitass foreigner feels more comfortable here. You guys have to learn to live in this society.
If you do not approach this society and try to integrate to it in terms of the society, you will not get in. We natives have no reason to try to make our society more likeable to you foreigners. If you do not like it, leave!
What use is multiculturalism if it only divides people, denies them their identity and turns country against itself? It is useless!
intternetnetsi
January 3, 2009
And as you are so prone to look what YK says.
1. Indigenous peoples and individuals have the right not to be subjected to forced assimilation or destruction of their culture.
2. States shall provide effective mechanisms for prevention of, and redress for:
(a) Any action which has the aim or effect of depriving them of their integrity as distinct peoples, or of their cultural values or ethnic identities;
(b) Any action which has the aim or effect of dispossessing them of their lands, territories or resources;
(c) Any form of forced population transfer which has the aim or effect of violating or undermining any of their rights;
(d) Any form of forced assimilation or integration;
Finns are Indigenous people. Been here thousands of years.
Enrique
January 4, 2009
This is a joke, right? Indigenous people?! Then the Italians, Spaniards, French, British etc. are indigenous people?! Come on, Onkko, you can make a better argument than that.
Enrique
January 4, 2009
–No, you cannot turn it around. Of course, you in your sick mind always do.
Why do you always get personal? Can´t you debate an issue without insulting the other person? Certainly the question can be turned around, placed also sideways, upside down etc!..
National culture is a sort of artificial flavoring on top of culture, which is what people use to function in society. Culture changes. What is surprising about your statement is that you believe that you don´t have to even take into consideration that other peoples from diverse backgrounds live in this country, but then are so concerned about indigenous cultures. I don´t get it.
–If you do not approach this society and try to integrate to it in terms of the society, you will not get in. We natives have no reason to try to make our society more likeable to you foreigners. If you do not like it, leave!
I wonder what the Finnish foreign investment department would think of that statement. Should it be: Finland a GREAT place to invest or Finland: love it or leave it!
intternetnetsi
January 4, 2009
-I wonder what the Finnish foreign investment department would think of that statement. Should it be: Finland a GREAT place to invest or Finland: love it or leave it!
Nothing because investors work according to culture and know how to behave.
-This is a joke, right? Indigenous people?! Then the Italians, Spaniards, French, British etc. are indigenous people?!
And no im not kidding, we are. I dont know enough history but ill say your examples are. Brits are siinä ja siinä because britain was forcifully invaded and resettled in written history.
intternetnetsi
January 4, 2009
There is good example of immigrant what is welcome.
http://www.ts.fi/ajassa/?ts=1,3:1007:0:0,4:7:0:1:2009-01-02,104:7:585058,1:0:0:0:0:0
And my fellow nuiva comment about it.
Veteleekö tämmöinen peli?
Voisin jopa väittää, että nämä ovat nyt niitä vääriä maahanmuuttajia. He eivät ole suorittaneet jutun mukaan minkäänlaisia rikastuksia, lapsi on oppinut kielen nopeasti ja töitä on hankittu onnistuneesti.
Tällaiset epävarsinaiset maahahmuuttajat eivät tarvitse pakolaisasiain lakimiestä, eivät vähemmistövaltuutettua eivätkä kotouttamista, ja vielä vähemmän he tarvitsevat kotoutusta suunnitelevaa erityisasiantuntijaa tai sosiaalitoimen tulkkia.
He eivät tuo siis mitään lisää monikulttuuriseen Suomeen! Häpeäisivät, tai sanoisivat sentään, että kyllä se rakenteellinen rasismi Vehmaalla tekee säästä huonon tai valittaisivat jotenkin, vaikka edes ihan vähäsen, paikallisten asenteellisuudesta. Tässähän rupeaa muuten juttua lukevat suomalaiset kuvittelemaan, että maahanmuuttajat voivat omalla panoksellaan sopeutua ihan mukavasti Suomen oloihin. Eihän se nyt saa olla… kyllä pitäisi vähintään työryhmä ainakin perustaa.
and comment to that
Mielestäni tuollaiset monikulttuurisuustyöntekijöille haitalliset tyypit pitäisi ainakin velvoittaa kulkemaan kylillä naama mustaksi lankattuna ja puhumaan vain tulkin välityksellä. Tuollainen omatoiminen sopeutuminen on suorastaan virkamiesten työn haittaamista ja siten tuomittavaa.
Kotoutua saa ilman maahanmuuttovirkamiesten apua mutta siitä ei pidä puhua ääneen!
There you see how “we” see your multicultarism.
Enrique
January 4, 2009
If you look at some tighter definitions of “indigenous people” you will conclude that Finns are NOT in that category. Indigenous groups are:
* alongside other cultural groups during the formation of a nation-state; or
* independently or largely isolated from the influence of the claimed governance by a nation-state,
and who furthermore:
* have maintained at least in part their distinct linguistic, cultural and social/organizational characteristics, and in doing so remain differentiated in some degree from the surrounding populations and dominant culture of the nation-state.
To the above, a criterion is usually added to also include:
* peoples who are self-identified as indigenous, and/or those recognized as such by other groups.
Note that even if all the above criteria are fulfilled, some people may either not consider themselves as indigenous or may not be considered as indigenous by governments, organizations or scholars.
Enrique
January 4, 2009
This is a good example of how immigrants can take the first steps in making Finland their home. However, what you are saying is that Finland should not accept refugees, do away with the integration program etc.
This is an example that multiculturalism works. I don´t understand how such a family does not bring more to multiculturalism in Finland. You exaggerate about racism accusation. Certainly a Sudanese would feel racism in a whole different light than the young British couple in the story.
Can you claim that there is no racism in Finland and that foreigners are only exaggerating? Do you have any empirical study to back up your statement?
intternetnetsi
January 5, 2009
-Can you claim that there is no racism in Finland and that foreigners are only exaggerating? Do you have any empirical study to back up your statement?
Of course there is some racists but what you call racism is way over head. I red how someone thought he was target of racism and facism when he was stopped by police. I have been stopped by police atleast 10 times so im also target of racism?
I overheard how apotheracy was full of racists because they didnt sell medicine other than in prescription.
I seen guy yelling racism when police got him for beating young boy.
You can add whatever they dont like and thats racism. Is that correct way to think?
And to add my friends experience, his employee asked holiday for some of his religional days but that was impossible to arrange so RACISM!
intternetnetsi
January 5, 2009
-If you look at some tighter definitions of “indigenous people” you will conclude that Finns are NOT in that category. Indigenous groups are:
I know that, we arent small enough group to get that status but we still are indigenous
Tiwaz
January 7, 2009
-”Why do you always get personal? Can´t you debate an issue without insulting the other person? Certainly the question can be turned around, placed also sideways, upside down etc!..”
Because you insult me, my heritage and my family with every single time you utter new like of bullshit about Finnish culture and how it must this or that because you, the great holy foreigner, deem it better.
-”National culture is a sort of artificial flavoring on top of culture, which is what people use to function in society. Culture changes. What is surprising about your statement is that you believe that you don´t have to even take into consideration that other peoples from diverse backgrounds live in this country, but then are so concerned about indigenous cultures. I don´t get it.”
There is nothing artificial in national culture. Apparently your thick head still has not grasped that this nation is built by FINNS for FINNS and according to FINNISH culture. Ergo, national culture and Finnish culture are one and same. It is not on top of anything, it IS anything and everything here.
This is not Argentina or USA where native culture is wiped out and replaced with variety of bits and pieces from dozens of cultures. There your words might ring true, but here they do not.
As for culture changing. Absolutely! Finnish culture has changed and will change. But according to FINNISH wants. Not your foreign desires. I do not care what you think would be better for Finnish culture, you are not Finn so you do not get to “vote”. We do not barter our culture, you do not get right to demand anything from us if you learn to respect one piece of our culture.
And I am concerned for indigenous cultures. That indeed includes FINNISH culture. Foreigners have homeland where they can practice their culture. Do not bring your culture and try to push away our culture in OUR homeland.
If you argentinians were being pushed by for example indians in Argentina, trying to force Indian culture to replace Argentinian. I would defend you against Indians. But you are not, most likely because nobody really wants to live in multicultural “heaven” that is Argentina. So most people try to leave it, not enter it.
-”I wonder what the Finnish foreign investment department would think of that statement. Should it be: Finland a GREAT place to invest or Finland: love it or leave it!”
How about “Finland, stable and prosperous place to invest. No internal problems, no race riots, low crime and low corruption.”
Besides, investors do not move with their investments, idiot. They live in Monaco or another tax paradise and just invest money. Their money has no culture. It is just money.
If they send in workers, those workers do not have any special rights to demand cultural appeasement. They live in this culture, according to rules of this culture.
Again, we do not barter with our culture and society. You cannot buy right to change our culture with money or your own cultural concessions.
Our way or highway is good and working solution. It keeps society stable when everyone is on same page on what is ok and what is not.
Enrique
January 7, 2009
–Because you insult me, my heritage and my family with every single time you utter new like of bullshit about Finnish culture and how it must this or that because you, the great holy foreigner, deem it better.
Could you be more specific were I insult your heritage, family etc…
Some people as yourself use so-called national culture to further your sense of superiority over others who are not like you. Smell the coffee: diversity has always existed, will exist in Finland. There is no such society as you mentioned. It only exists in between your ears.
If you read some of the major business daily, there is a term called “foreign investment.” Foreign companies invest in a country. But I guess yo are also mister-know-it-all in this sector as well.
I would not care if this is Argentina, the US or Finland. I live by the law, have my constitutional rights and obligations, full stop. It is useless, unless you want to commit a crime and break the law, to refuse me or take away this right. Now that would be ANTI-FINNISH in your books because you are acting as a deviant, outsider and are a menace to society.
Enrique
January 7, 2009
Hey, in every group there are jerks. However, I do not know the cases you are mentioning I am only relying on word of mouth, which is a poor source for things.
Racism, like any crime, is a problem in many societies. If it occurs, I recommend the person to act swiftly, decisively and use the full weight of the law. It applies to any other crimes.
Tiwaz
January 8, 2009
-Some people as yourself use so-called national culture to further your sense of superiority over others who are not like you. Smell the coffee: diversity has always existed, will exist in Finland. There is no such society as you mentioned. It only exists in between your ears.
How about you proving your claim? Do you have actual, certified professors who say that Finns, native ones, are not products of SINGLE culture? Granted, there are swedish speakers and sami. But even their cultures have evolved not to be in conflict with Finnish.
Go on. Find a professor who tells us that Finland is not 90+% Finnish culturally. And who is willing to go public with that claim.
-If you read some of the major business daily, there is a term called “foreign investment.” Foreign companies invest in a country. But I guess yo are also mister-know-it-all in this sector as well.
If you bothered to actually learn what they do, it is that they buy company/start company or something similar. Ergo, they send their money. They do not come themselves. To foreign investors and companies it is one and fucking same what kind of culture and how they expect people moving in to integrate as long as it makes profit with reasonable risk.
They do not demand Finns to change Finnish culture.
In fact, many companies find Finnish culture of low corruption and high stability to be very good. Not to mention high quality. Only think keeping Finland down is not our culture, but costs. If it cost as much to hire a Finn as it does to hire Chinese, all companies in the world would be rushing to Finland and would not give a damn if we have as a condition integration into society. They would just tell their workers to either integrate or find new employer.
-I would not care if this is Argentina, the US or Finland. I live by the law, have my constitutional rights and obligations, full stop. It is useless, unless you want to commit a crime and break the law, to refuse me or take away this right. Now that would be ANTI-FINNISH in your books because you are acting as a deviant, outsider and are a menace to society.
If you do not live here like Finnish culture expects you to live, you should not expect to be treated like Finn either. Feel free to act like foreigner, but do not come whine when you are treated like foreigner.
Feel free not to learn the language, but do not come whining when you do not find a job because employer wants you to be able to communicate.
Enrique
January 8, 2009
–How about you proving your claim? Do you have actual, certified professors who say that Finns, native ones, are not products of SINGLE culture? Granted, there are swedish speakers and sami. But even their cultures have evolved not to be in conflict with Finnish.
I don’t have to prove anything. Cultures are complex and there are many types of people that live in this country with varying lifestyles. Society is diverse it does not fit a grammar school oral examination of Finland that begins: Finland is located zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Its population is zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Those are only facts but do not give the true picture of our diverse society.
–If you bothered to actually learn what they do, it is that they buy company/start company or something similar. Ergo, they send their money. They do not come themselves. To foreign investors and companies it is one and f**** same what kind of culture and how they expect people moving in to integrate as long as it makes profit with reasonable risk.
They send their money and MANAGE the company with personnel and create a corporate culture that is conducive to profit.
–If you do not live here like Finnish culture expects you to live, you should not expect to be treated like Finn either. Feel free to act like foreigner, but do not come whine when you are treated like foreigner. Feel free not to learn the language, but do not come whining when you do not find a job because employer wants you to be able to communicate.
You continue to have a very lowly view of others who are not like you. You should work on this. People do make an effort to integrate. Some succeed while other do not. People are taught tolerance in Finnish schools but some embrace it while others throw it in the trash can of society. People are different, like societies.
Tiwaz
January 9, 2009
-”I don’t have to prove anything. Cultures are complex and there are many types of people that live in this country with varying lifestyles. Society is diverse it does not fit a grammar school oral examination of Finland that begins: Finland is located zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Its population is zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Those are only facts but do not give the true picture of our diverse society.”
FACTS ARE TRUTH. IF IT IS NOT FACT, IT IS FICTION. SO GIVE ME FACTS!!!
Idiot. Finns are over 90% of population, any professor you would go to would tell you that there is one dominant culture in Finland. Finnish culture.
Every other older culture, jewish, tatar, sami and swedish, are subject to this culture.
Finland is not diverse, idiot.
To be diverse, other cultures but Finnish would have to actually pick up in the radar. They do not. Your stupidity is same as you claiming that because you found one brown ball in huge pile of white balls, it is somehow diverse pile of balls.
-”They send their money and MANAGE the company with personnel and create a corporate culture that is conducive to profit. ”
They hire managers, who only deal with handful of NATIVE managers (assuming first one was not like that) who then handle things. And again, they do not care what kind of cultural requirements there are in that society. Those are problems for workers. And when workers are natives, there is no problem.
When they import worker from abroad, it is problem of that worker to survive in the world outside corporation. Corporations do not go around demanding cultures to change, they work IN the local culture.
-”You continue to have a very lowly view of others who are not like you. You should work on this. People do make an effort to integrate. Some succeed while other do not. People are taught tolerance in Finnish schools but some embrace it while others throw it in the trash can of society. People are different, like societies.”
I have very low view of people who go to different country, refuse to learn local language and culture, respect those two, and then start whining that natives are racist for not bending over backwards to appease foreign idiots whims.
Societies built on this bullshit that every culture is equal are ones that are least stable. I like my society stable.
This thing is going wrong. Immigrants should be taught to respect FINNISH culture and way of life. That would give good start for interaction.
I have no intention to respect any culture or cultures which immigrate to Finland and become for example source of rapists into this nice, peaceful and stable society.
Helsinki
January 9, 2009
“This thing is going wrong. Immigrants should be taught to respect FINNISH culture and way of life. That would give good start for interaction.
I have no intention to respect any culture or cultures which immigrate to Finland and become for example source of rapists into this nice, peaceful and stable society.”
So you have to better to change for yourself!
At the moment Finland has a lot of kind of “immigration critics” which one have much much time to defend their opinion in every space on the internet. From Finlanf to abroad as I see. Well, take care Enrique. I think these guys are here as well!:)
Enrique
January 9, 2009
Hi Helsinki, and welcome to Migrant Tales. Thank you for your comment. Respect, which is a two-way street, is a the best way to start a meaningful relation. Why do you think that immigrants that come to Finland do not respect Finnish culture?
Helsinki
January 10, 2009
Hi!
“Why do you think that immigrants that come to Finland do not respect Finnish culture?”
Well, I have no idea. My neighbours are from Africa (maybe Somalia, I don’t know them as I don’t know my white one neigbourgs as well) and I was studying some years at Eira Highschool. You know, Eira Highschool is very international, there’s maybe more immigrants than anywhere else highschool in Finland). And I have been working with people from Iraq, Morocco, Somalia, Eastern Block, Mediterrean sometimes. I have not problems with them. Well, what is the Finnish culture? I think it is the most same culture than everywhere else in Western World. Global culture mixed with local. Listening American/UK rockmusic, eating Italian pizza, Kebab, Indian food. Watching Hollywood movies, Football, Icehockey (one of them is not from Finland). Of course for examplle literatuere from 1800′s like Kalevala, Aleksis Kivi’s Seitsemän veljestä (7 brothers), winter war with Russia, Finnish countryside (I think more Finland is Helsinki railway station:)) like Koli. Jean Sibelius is also kind of Finnish culture, you know, Sibelius’s Finlandia hymn. But if you think about more, it is just song. It would be as well Somalia’s national hymn, it’s only imaginaton about what is Finland in this song. That kind of imagination is true as here in Finland is many people to believe it. So I have no my own experience why do they not respect Finnish culture. I think most of them respect as much they have to respect.
Of course there’s criminals as well as is in local Finns. And of course some of them (Immigrants) have some special socioeconomic problems. I meant to get a job from Finland. and after that the may have some other problems. Well, in my own exprerience (what I have seen) is it not so easy get a job if you are Immigrant. And it depens on what kind of immgrant you are. You may have no problems if you are white Germanian. Or mediterranian. If you live in Helsinki, it is mayne easy than somewhere else in Finland.
“Respect, which is a two-way street, is a the best way to start a meaningful relation. ”
Do you mean with other Finnish people?
Enrique
January 10, 2009
Hi Helsinki, I enjoyed reading your post. It brings a lot of interesting question and explains well about the hybrid state of Western culture. If those things that you mentioned make you feel Finnish, then all power to you. All the you mention as Finnish traits are things that we have experienced together because they relate to those that live in this part of the world. They are some of us hold precious in Finland
You also hit the problem on the nail: socioeconomic. Since you have worked with people from different countries you understand that getting a decent job is the most important hurdle. With unemployment levels so high in Finland among foreigners, I guess one loses hope after many years of ending up in job dead ends/unemployed.
By respect being a two-way street I meant that both groups, if they are going to interact because of work, family of friendship reasons, should make an effort to understand each other between all people from different/same groups. This is nothing strange. We do the same thing when we meet new people. Thus we try to find things that unite us rather than tear us apart.
Tiwaz
January 12, 2009
-”Of course there’s criminals as well as is in local Finns. And of course some of them (Immigrants) have some special socioeconomic problems. I meant to get a job from Finland. and after that the may have some other problems. Well, in my own exprerience (what I have seen) is it not so easy get a job if you are Immigrant. And it depens on what kind of immgrant you are. You may have no problems if you are white Germanian. Or mediterranian. If you live in Helsinki, it is mayne easy than somewhere else in Finland.”
Issue is not that there are criminals, issue is that there are disproportionately MORE criminals in immigrants than Finns.
And have you ever grasped that your problems of getting job are twofold..
1) It is not in general easy to get a job in Finland. Even for natives.
2) You lack basic skills of communication and interaction. Those are essential in fitting into workplace. If you do not have them, you are liability.
-”By respect being a two-way street I meant that both groups, if they are going to interact because of work, family of friendship reasons, should make an effort to understand each other between all people from different/same groups. This is nothing strange. We do the same thing when we meet new people. Thus we try to find things that unite us rather than tear us apart.”
Yes, let’s have Finns give up piece of Finnish culture to appease first immigrant. In name of two way interaction. Then another piece for next immigrant, third for third. And in the end, with enough immigrants you have no Finnish culture left.
What unites people in Finland, is cultural norms and rules. We all share them. They bind us. By trying to destroy these binds, Enrique, you try to destroy whole society.
-”It would be as well Somalia’s national hymn, it’s only imaginaton about what is Finland in this song. ”
Ever thought that it is simphony created by Finn, for Finns. And that it draws upon Finnish culture to create it. And that to Finns it acts as piece of the foundation for our identity.
And you foreigners clearly do not respect Finnish culture. If you did, you would not be bitching and moaning how things are not working like you want to. You have never respected Finland and Finns enough to learn how things work here. So you end up beating your head in the wall, and then whine that Finns are racists because they do not bend over backwards to make things work the way YOU want. Instead of how FINNS want them to work.
Enrique
January 12, 2009
-”It would be as well Somalia’s national hymn, it’s only imaginaton about what is Finland in this song. ” Ever thought that it is simphony created by Finn, for Finns. And that it draws upon Finnish culture to create it. And that to Finns it acts as piece of the foundation for our identity.
Would you feel totally naked as a person if you did not persist with your ramped nationalism? I mean, stop hiding in folktales and myths?
Sibelius’ masterpieces were not composed for Finns but for humankind. My grandmother’s first husband was a violinist who played under Sibelius and later moved to Boston to become the head violinist of the Boston Symphony Orchestra, where he played and promoted Sibelius. He was an immigrant from Russia. So, you see, if Sibelius would have thought like you about people from other countries he would have killed his ability to compose masterpieces.
One thing that I do not appreciate from you is that you claim to “own” pieces of what some interpret as Finnish when in fact they have been inherited by humanity. Sibelius is one such composer. Finlandia was also Biafra’s national anthem.
Tiwaz
January 14, 2009
-”Would you feel totally naked as a person if you did not persist with your ramped nationalism? I mean, stop hiding in folktales and myths?
Sibelius’ masterpieces were not composed for Finns but for humankind. My grandmother’s first husband was a violinist who played under Sibelius and later moved to Boston to become the head violinist of the Boston Symphony Orchestra, where he played and promoted Sibelius. He was an immigrant from Russia. So, you see, if Sibelius would have thought like you about people from other countries he would have killed his ability to compose masterpieces.”
Tell me, imbecile, what you build your identity upon? Because every psychologist will tell you it is something that takes place in your youth. You pretend you have no culture, but in next breath tell how your parents brought you up.
That is where your identity came from. If we take away everything which became dear to you in childhood. You would lose your identity. Mine, and every Finns, identity is built on our society and culture.
-”One thing that I do not appreciate from you is that you claim to “own” pieces of what some interpret as Finnish when in fact they have been inherited by humanity. Sibelius is one such composer. Finlandia was also Biafra’s national anthem.”
And it still is Finnish composition by Finn made in Finland. So, it is part of Finnish culture and psyche. If others try to add it to their culture, they can. But it does not make it less Finnish.
There is no “humanity” we are not all one big happy family. We live in groups, tribes. Or have you perhaps missed what is taking place in Gaza imbecile?
Tiwaz
January 14, 2009
By the way, how on earth you can make jump of logic that Sibelius somehow depended in his creations on your grandmothers first husband?
You try to overexaggerate importance of your family there. If your grannys hubbie had not been there, another violinist would have been. And Sibelius would have composed just the same.
Enrique
January 14, 2009
Read the post carefully. I said that he promoted his music in the US.
Enrique
January 14, 2009
Who said I do not have culture. The difference between you and me is that I am not obsessed by it.
Why don’t you try to break your personal record by using the term “imbecile” more than two times in a comment. That would be a new record. Furthermore, you should use words correctly. An “imbecile” has an IQ of about 25. I do not call you an imbecile because I respect people with physical and mental problems.
Tiwaz
January 15, 2009
So? He promoted Sibelius?
What would we have lost if he had not? NOTHING!
Sibelius still would have made his symphonies, they would still be played in Finland.
Husband of your grandmother was on large scale totally irrelevant to Sibelius and his creation.
And I call you imbecile because that tends to fit you. Though I think calling you one might be insult to mentally handicapped.
Now, tell me idiot, I hope I do not insult idiots here, how you are not “obsessed” by your culture? You are after all constantly trying to push it to me, native, in my country. You are far more obsessed of your culture than I am of mine. I just want to keep my identity intact, part of that identity is Finnish culture.
You want to tear apart that unique culture, replace it with whatever you prefer and destroy Finnish culture from this world once and for all. If you have your way, Finnish culture will stop existing. There is no more Finns. Because Finn would be empty word which would mean nothing.
You are arrogant little idiot who thinks he has right to go to foreign countries and demand natives of those countries to appease you by following your cultural norms. And an idiot, since you apparently think culture and genetics are somehow connected.
DeTant Blomhat
January 15, 2009
“how you are not “obsessed” by your culture? ”
Ah, thats “multiculture”.
Enrique
January 15, 2009
Wow, you outdid yourself: you mentioned imbecile once and idiot a record five times! People who are ethnocentric tend to exaggerate differences between people. I believe that cultures and people are not as different as you state. Finns are not a lost “tribe” living in the Deep North with unique anthropolgical traits.
Did I say that culture and genetics are somewhow connected??
intternetnetsi
January 16, 2009
-”Finns are not a lost “tribe” living in the Deep North with unique anthropolgical traits.”
If we look europe we are, i would like to see russia in this map too. Couldt find map where “finns swim alone in gene pool”
Tiwaz
January 16, 2009
-”Wow, you outdid yourself: you mentioned imbecile once and idiot a record five times! People who are ethnocentric tend to exaggerate differences between people. I believe that cultures and people are not as different as you state. Finns are not a lost “tribe” living in the Deep North with unique anthropolgical traits.
Did I say that culture and genetics are somewhow connected??”
Apologies for calling you idiot, but your arguments are ones that resemble ones that are made by an idiot. But I admit you are not an idiot, delusional idealist but not necessarily idiot.
As for “lost tribe”. We are genetically set apart from basically all our neighbours. There has been VERY minor interaction between Finns and people of surrounding regions, but it has been minimal. That is what has made many geneticists so interested about Finns. Our genetic code is very close to what it was when our ancestors came to this country. It has changed very little because there has been very little interaction with other societies around us.
Finns are tribe of it’s own. We have our own language, our own culture. Today we have our own country too. And our genetics are clearly set apart from dominant genes surrounding us.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/science/13visual.html
Read.
And what you believe is irrelevant. People and cultures are VASTLY different. More common things they share, more alike they are of course. But since humans live in huge amount of areas, so our cultures have huge amount of variation. To point where no two cultures are not perfectly compatible. Because if they were, they would not be different cultures.
Differences between European cultures are relatively minor, on global scale. Which is why your poor, innocent immigrant muslims are so problematic. Their culture comes from totally different background, and their refusal to accept that their native norms no longer apply lead to situation of them being overrepresented in rape statistics.
Now, tell me. How your grannys husband was so critical for Sibelius? What FACTS (you know, we Finns are from culture which values facts instead of all that emotional stuff your native latin-american culture prefers. We find emotional arguments to be tools of those who have no argument) you have to back it up?
Helsinki
January 24, 2009
“-”It would be as well Somalia’s national hymn, it’s only imaginaton about what is Finland in this song. ”
Ever thought that it is simphony created by Finn, for Finns. And that it draws upon Finnish culture to create it. And that to Finns it acts as piece of the foundation for our identity.”
Yeah I know but I did not meant that. Well, if you just heard the song “Finlandia” without you don’t know nothing about this song history, how you can connect this song to Finland? There’s no way.
Helsinki
January 24, 2009
“And have you ever grasped that your problems of getting job are twofold..
1) It is not in general easy to get a job in Finland. Even for natives.
2) You lack basic skills of communication and interaction. Those are essential in fitting into workplace. If you do not have them, you are liability.”
Of course of course but if you but it will be sometimes many times harder to get a job unless you have good skills to communication and so on. Think about it if you are Finnish gypsy or Finnish born non-islamic black one with perfect language skills.
“1) It is not in general easy to get a job in Finland. Even for natives.”
That’s sometimes true, partically in the country side but normally not higher economy cities like in Helsinki.
Enrique
January 24, 2009
Finlandia is a masterpiece. Certainly those that live and know Finland can see sublime images flowering from his music. If you never have been to Finland nor did not know who the composer was, you would still be marveled by its beauty.
Enrique
January 24, 2009
Helsinki, thank you for making an intersting point. Spain is another example. In that country you have hundreds of thousands of Latin American immigrants who speak Spanish as their mother tongue and understand culture. They also share the same religion as the Spaniards. Why are these people form the lower economic classes in Spain? Lack of professional training? Or is it something in between the Spaniards’ ears? There are professions that suit EVERYONE in society — from cleaning to managing a multinational company. Langauge is only an excuse. Then when the person learns the language, I am certain some other excuse will be made up not to hire him/her.
Lontoolainen
February 3, 2009
”As for “lost tribe”. We are genetically set apart from basically all our neighbours. There has been VERY minor interaction between Finns and people of surrounding regions, but it has been minimal. That is what has made many geneticists so interested about Finns. Our genetic code is very close to what it was when our ancestors came to this country. It has changed very little because there has been very little interaction with other societies around us.
Finns are tribe of it’s own. We have our own language, our own culture. Today we have our own country too. And our genetics are clearly set apart from dominant genes surrounding us.”
When we walk around Saimaa, we might do well to see the dozens of rock art locations, some made well over 10,000 years ago. These were not made by ”Finns” in todays sense, indeed Sami and Finn did not exist as distinctly separate entities at the time. As for Finns, if you mean Karelians, Tavastians, Ingrians, Ostrobothnians…they were seperate tribes, who never considered themselves as Finns, not until they were branded as such in the 14th Century or later. The ”Finnish” language was standardized less than 150 years ago. So much for the single tribe theory.
The Sami are distant relations of Finns, it doesnt take a Linguistics or Genetics expert to work that out.
Russia, Estonia and Latvia contain well over half of the Baltic Finnic languages spoken today, or vestiges of those that were not wiped off the map by Stalin. The single tribe theory does not stick, and I am sick and tired of self styled Nationalists citing this outdated, disproven crap over and over again.
Enrique
February 3, 2009
Hi Lontoolainen, I think you made your point eloquently. People who push around this idea that “Finns are a tribe” has a lot to do with the way the Finns see themselves with the rest of the Europe. It is a good thing that less and less people see themselves this way. It is like the poppycock about the Continuation War, in which Finland fought a “separate” war with the Soviet Union. It is a hard sell taking into account that ALL of Europe (except for Portugal, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland) was engulfed in an all-out war and, here in the corner pocket of Europe, the Finns are fighting a “separate war” with the USSR with the help of Germany. Now that is, in my opinion, an incredible statement. It will one day be disproved like this idea that the Finns came from the Volga region and happened to settle Finland.
alien
February 5, 2009
Hi every body.
http://users.telenet.be/kotm/fmp/poster/finland.jpg
Just to cheer you up.
lu
February 7, 2009
Obama !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! a solution to a problem !
alien
February 7, 2009
I don’t know what problem is to be solved to which Obama could be a solution. But I know that it takes courage to solve big problems and not color! Some thing which seems to be far less accessible for politicians!!
Enrique
February 8, 2009
Hi lu, and welcome to Migrant Tales. I hear you and hope that he will be a solution to a very serious problem left by Bush.
Enrique
February 8, 2009
Let’s hope so, alien. Only time holds the secret to the question you pose. It is pretty incredulous, how much hope has been placed on a person. Special interest can ruin the party.
Enrique
February 8, 2009
Hi lu, and welcome to Migrant Tales. I sure hope so!
alien
February 9, 2009
Lets hope my friend!:)
alien
February 12, 2009
To racists:
I don’t care If you are racist or what!I don’t really care if u like me or hate me. Personally I just laugh at you if u think you are superior. I am more intelligent, more handsome, braver, educated, and if you want to fight me, I kick your monkey ass. I all I want is the equal chances.If Finland administration give me the same chances that is assumed granted for you, I would be happy. That is nothing but equal chance to study, to work, to travel, and social positions. If Finland follows the rule in the democracy that every one is innocent until proven guilty that is enough for me.
Our problem, immigrants problem, is the State Discrimination. You racists are nothing. What is so good about you or your history which makes you feel superior? Nothing! SO If you are racist and hate us, you can go and f*** yourself.
Lontoolainen
February 13, 2009
The ‘racists’ here are just ignorant fools. They see themselves as patriots. You cant blame an inexperienced, uneducated person of being a racist, education and contact with foreigners will usually fix that. It’s the informed who choose to ignore the truth and fan the flames, they are the racists.
Anyway, all have a good weekend!
Enrique
February 14, 2009
Hi Lontoolainen, I hope you are well in Small Town, Finland. You are absolutely right: racism loses out in the end because it is self-inflicting and undermines the social, political and economic foundations of society. It turns you into a person with very narrow views of society.
Have a restful weekend as well.
intternetnetsi
February 21, 2009
“education and contact with foreigners will usually fix that. It’s the informed who choose to ignore the truth and fan the flames, they are the racists.”
Bollocks, that causes “racism”. Problems and frictions what current multiculturalISM causes are facts and any sensible person see those.
I would like to have ambulance in where i live so no multicultarism please.
Enrique
February 22, 2009
Why would multiculturalism cause racism?! And, if you did not know, it is the law in Finland that all forms of discrimination are a crime. If I were you, I would march and form a lobby group that would do away with laws such as the Equality and Non-Discrimination Act. I would be fascinated to hear how you would sell your plan to the general public. If you can, please tell me what arguments you would use to do away these two laws.
intternetnetsi
February 22, 2009
Those laws are against multiculturalism because multiculturalism isnt about equality but for separation and segregation.
JP
February 28, 2009
“I hope change come soon to this land, because diversity is good for any nation.”
Yeah, i think we have seen that in Sweden…. LOL
Immigrants dont want to be equal… they want to be superior.
Enrique
February 28, 2009
–Immigrants dont want to be equal… they want to be superior.
Why do you think that? Don’t come and tell me that immigrants in Finland use up all the social welfare services at your expense. That is one of the most senseless arguments I have heard.
VV
March 2, 2009
Quite a racistic article. Qualifies as a hate speech against Finns.
Timo Hellman
March 3, 2009
“And, if you did not know, it is the law in Finland that all forms of discrimination are a crime.”
Except positive discrimination aka “affirmative action”
What is your opinion about positive discrimination?
And what you think of swimming hours only for Muslim ladies by City of Helsinki?
Enrique
March 3, 2009
Hi Timo Hellman, thank you for your comment and welcome to Migrant Tales.
What is “positive discrimination?” I do not understand the concept. Are you trying to say that when Muslim ladies have swimming hours for them that is “positive discrimination?” Discrimination is a more sinister thing. As you know, some Finns use the word racism to apply to everything such as “ikärasismi.” Racism is discrimination due to race, full stop. Why do you feel that you are being “discriminated” because Muslim women have swimming hours? Aren’t there different classes that reserve the pool on certain hours, for example scuba divers?
Is this issue only a storm in a tea cup?
Enrique
March 3, 2009
Hi VV, why do you consider this a “hate” speech against Finns? If racism is a problem, isn’t it important that we address it forcefully?
KitKat
March 3, 2009
I am quite insulted by this piece of writing and all the comments on here. I personally don’t think Finland is racist. I’m getting sick and tired of being called a racist because I want to make sure it doesn’t happen to Finland what has happened to other big European countries (e.g. England, France, Holland..) I’m also sick of people coming into Finland and demanding special treatment because they are foreign. I know most of these demanders happen to be Muslim. Now don’t get me wrong, I am tolerant of all religions, I have lived in a muslim country and some of my best friends are muslims. But I don’t understand how as soon as muslims enter Europe they seem to think that they have the right to demand special treatment. As an example what Timo Hellman mentioned about the swimming hours on for muslim women. How would it be received if a swimming pool took for example thursday and made it “only for finnish men”.
I can understand different times for men and women, but what goes beyond my understanding is separating times according to religion. This is political correctness gone mad.
Can you imagine a scenario where a finnish person would go to e.g. Saudi Arabia and demand a restaurant to serve him pork? This would be unacceptable there. However the western world is so set on being politically correct that we are willing to give up our own heritage and culture to please others.
Some people who have commented on this think it’s racist if a finn doesnt say hello to you or isn’t polite. Well let me tell you something. Like I said I lived in a muslim country for two years when I was younger. We were pretty much the only “white” people in the village. I have been spat on, made fun of, been hit, been called names.. I was once hit with a glass bottle on my head and had to go to get stiches. We arrived at the clinic and the doctor who was immediately available wouldn’t treat me because I wasn’t a muslim.. I had to wait for two hours to get stickes. That’s what’s racism.
And Enrique, for your question about positive discrimination.. it happens for example when there are quotas being issued to certain jobs. Lets say there are two applicants to a job, a finnish man and a foreign one. Now the finn has better qualifications and is by far a better candidate but the company feels they need to employ the foreign one just to fill a quota or avoid being called racists. That’s positive discrimination.
Enrique
March 3, 2009
Hi KitKat, many thanks for dropping by and posting a comment.
If you are a Finn, how do you know what other people from different cultures have to endure in this country? Maybe you have an idea what it means to be excluded from your experiences in the Middle East. Add to that the fact that you have to make a living in a country that may not accept you, and you may get an idea what it means to be at the receiving end.
–I’m getting sick and tired of being called a racist because I want to make sure it doesn’t happen to Finland what has happened to other big European countries (e.g. England, France, Holland..) I’m also sick of people coming into Finland and demanding special treatment because they are foreign.
I wonder who is calling you a racist. What is it that you do not want happening to Finland. If there is about 20% unemployment among foreigners in general, what kind of special treatment are they receiving?
At Yrjö’s swimming pool in Helsinki there are days when it is reserved only for men and other days for women. I don’t think you can compare Finland to Saudi Arabia nor is it a country that I would personally want to emulate. I enjoy Western principles and values. What happened to you in the Muslim country you mentioned is just as bad as what Skinheads and other similar groups are doing in Finland.
I do not like the word “positive discrimination.” They are called quotas. It also happens among women in Finland. In the public sector and city council committees there are quotas for how many women must sit in management or as a member. Is that discrimination against men? Could you please tell me which company in Finland has ethnic quotas? I am pretty certain it is not the private sector.
alien
March 8, 2009
JP Says:
February 28, 2009 at 8:59 pm
“I hope change come soon to this land, because diversity is good for any nation.”
Yeah, i think we have seen that in Sweden…. LOL
….
I dont know if Sweden is so bad why 600 000 Fins are living there !!!???
If Sweden is so terrible, why they have stronger economy!!!!
Why you follow every thing from Sweden, except the way they let immigrants integrate into their society!!!
Who travels more to the other one’s country? Swedes to Finland, or Finns to Sweden!!!!???
Enrique
March 9, 2009
Hi Alien, there are many things about Sweden that I like. It is funny how some of the comments talk about how “bad” Sweden is when in reality it had given hunreds of thousands of jobs to Finns. Some comments in this blogs are made by chronic nationalists and by people afflicted by a bad case of ethnocentrism.
alien
March 9, 2009
You are right Enrique:
If you had this sight in Sweden and this discussion would be about Sweden, there would be many Swedes and Finns who living in Sweden who would endorse and support you. I am sorry that you have such a difficult job in Finland. Though I respect Finland in many ways, but I am afraid to say that Finnish society is so right-wing, meaning has still work to do to see the things from other perspectives and from a higher point. In such a situation running a discussion which takes some intellects seems to be hard and not appreciated as we observe.
Good luck my friend and if it happened you come by to Stockholm I would be happy to have a lunch, coffee, or a beer with you depending on the time.
Enrique
March 9, 2009
Thank you for the invitation, alien. I will take you up on it if I travel to Stockholm. The same invitation goes for you if you are ever in Finland.
It would be interesting to hear what things are being debated in Sweden about the issues we discuss in this blog.
intternetnetsi
March 10, 2009
“Why you follow every thing from Sweden, except the way they let immigrants integrate into their society!!!”
I dont call stoning firetruck/ambulance as integrating.
“The same invitation goes for you if you are ever in Finland.”
So you moved back to finland?
alien
March 11, 2009
intternetnetsi Says:
March 10, 2009 at 6:33 pm
….
So you moved back to finland?
kamoo sä oot ihan pihalla!
keep wishing
alien
March 12, 2009
No one of you Finns would like to answer to this question if there is riots in Stockholm, there lives people who according to you “stone ambulances” (is good to show a picture to endorse your claim), and all the rest that you are saying, why 600 000 of you Finnish people live in such a bad place and do not go back to Finland where you dont do these bad things and being the third criminal nation is only domestic issues and nothing cultural!!!
Enrique
March 12, 2009
Hi Alien, do not take some of these comments too seriously. You should be fortunate that you live in Sweden, where debate over cultural diversity is on a totally different league than in Finland. This does not mean that there are genuinely good and open people that live in this country. Some of these 600,000 Finns you mention understand what it means to start anew in a new society. From the comments you make, I can tell that you too understand well the issue. Thank you for sharing your views with us.
intternetnetsi
March 14, 2009
“Now in Malmo, Sweden, a city where a quarter of the population is Muslim, there are some parts of the city where buses refuse to go for fear of safety. Fireman, policemen, and ambulance drivers have been attacked in certain sections when trying to do their job.”
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136500,00.html
And about back in finland i was quoting and commenting enrique not you.
intternetnetsi
March 14, 2009
And about why finns still live in sweden, whole sweden isnt hellhole and you probably know term white flight.
alien
March 15, 2009
intternetnetsi Says:
March 14, 2009 at 8:10 pm
“Now in Malmo, Sweden, a city where a quarter of the population is Muslim, there are some parts of the city where buses refuse to go for fear of safety. Fireman, policemen, and ambulance drivers have been attacked in certain sections when trying to do their job.”
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136500,00.html
Your resource is a right-winged anti-moslem resource and is lying according to Expressen. Watch it out for your self:
Expressen.se om Fox News, Malmö och bloggare
Expressen kommenterade, glädjande nog, Fox News Malmöreportage på söndagen:
“Rävstationen besökte Malmö och lämnade staden med ett reportage med namnet ‘Sverige har nått smärtgränsen när det gäller muslimer’. Malmö beskrivs som en förlorad stad där en fjärdedel av invånarna är muslimer, därtill fundamentalister och därmed potentiella terrorister. Reportern Steve Harrigan kokade ihop en soppa av manipulerad och delvis påhittad fakta, kryddad med gammal guilt-by-association, lätt fräst i ett mardrömsscenario. (…)
Lyckligtvis så finns det vakna bloggare som Jonas Södersten på kornet.se som slår ut etablerade medier såväl när det gäller snabbhet som noggrannhet.”
Expressen: Räven går i Rosengård – Fox News sprider myter om muslimerna i Malmö, 5 dec 2004 (min kursivering)
Finns should know Swedish since they have been once under Swedes from the beginning for 700 years. I bring a summary for others so that it shows how racist people of Finland using phony resources to endorse their claims.
Summary in english:
…. Reporter Steve Harrigan had boiled a soup of manipulation and partly artificial facts, spiced with old guilt-by-association, and lightly fried in a nightmare scenario!…….
… Hopefully there exists a awakened blogger such as Jonas Södersten in kornet.se who stands in established media when it comes to prompt accuracy.
Here is the link:
http://kornet.nu/blindhona/arkiv/001142.html
You see this is a Swedish White NEWSPAPER. A Swedish one which knows Mälmo and Sweden better than you and it confirms that Foxnews article is a lie!
You were here in Sweden we would show you a white fight that you forget your way back home! You dont believe me, ask your Finnish people in Sweden, how much of a with fight they can put up in here!
intternetnetsi
March 16, 2009
Its white FLIGHT you imbesil and i have talked to relatives who live in sweden and situation is grim.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight
White flight is a term for the demographic trend in which working and middle-class white people move away from suburbs or urban neighborhoods that are becoming racially desegregated to white suburbs and exurbs.
KS
March 17, 2009
“Here is a new one, number 11: I get attacked by comments in my blog for speaking out against racism….
The problem is, that in recent years the internet has let the ‘cat out of the bag.’ People can write often what they like without being traced. It’s definitely being used especially by the extremists.”
Perhaps your own blog reinforces this point, given how much you’re addressing some rather emotional and polemic comments? I think you’re a patient person to endure all these comments in such a cool-headed manner. While I consider myself level-headed, I don’t react as kindly to remarkably unsubtle bigotry and xenophobia–and it does not reinforce whatever pride I may have in my family’s heritage.
In regards to extremism, I’ve noted this too while reading web resources on Finnish culture. Sadly, one eventually comes across someone who has a huge chip on their shoulder, behaving with extreme drama as if the very fabric of Finnish society is at risk. I find this hard to believe and rather ironic, given how Finnish culture and identity has survived centuries of occupation and marginalization. It’s a testament to Finland’s enduring character to survive despite these odds—so I find little dignity in those who figuratively “piss their pants” at the prospect of a little cultural abrasion due to immigration. Excuse the colorful metaphor, but surely similar cultural tension happened during Sweden’s or Russia’s administration? Is such tension really a new, untenable problem for any culture?
Obviously, it’s up to every country to determine their future and how they integrate disparate cultures. Yet, it strikes me that once you invite multinationals, it’s your responsibility to set a good example of the values that represent your country. I think that is incumbent upon any culture—particularly my own. Conversely, I would consider it common sense for any guest to try to understand, appreciate and integrate in the host culture if they plan living there. However, it should be common-sense that people are most willing to integrate in cultures where they feel welcome and have equal opportunity to pursue the same goals as everyone else. But there’s an apparent contradiction when people are brought in to do work nobody else wants, given little reason for hope for advancement, yet expected to seamlessly integrate into their host culture? Excuse me if I chuckle a bit at this irony which I see repeated in many countries—including the United States.
Enrique
March 17, 2009
KS, many thanks for your words. What you say is spot on and explains the whole issue in a nutshell. I will remember your comment and recommend it to others. I could not have said it better.
The reason why I think it is important that some xenophobes comment in this blog is to see what they actually think and how distorted and opinionated their views are. There was a new attitude study published by Magdalena Jaakkola that shows that Finns’ attitudes towards immigrants has become more favorable.
If we look at some of the commentators in the blog who vehemently oppose cultural diversity, I get the feeling they would be happier living under a dictatorship. They have little respect for the laws and believe mistakenly that they have the right to insult other groups because Finland is “their” country. There is a basic flaw in this argument: 1) Finland is NOT their country; 2) and Finland has become the home of people from all walks of cultural life. Another interesting matter is that they talk of “Finnish” attitudes and values when, in fact, they are undermining these very values. Few have the guts to come out of the closet so to speak and challenge Finland’s anti-discrimination laws and multicultural model. They do not do this because their countrymen would run them out of Finland, or they would be too ashamed to show their face. It is a bit like the peeping Tom: he watches from afar anonymously to get their rocks off. As this blog has grown so have these types of people become a minority.
In my opinion, racism is nothing more than a tool to dominate minorities.
KS
March 17, 2009
“If we look at some of the commentators in the blog who vehemently oppose cultural diversity, I get the feeling they would be happier living under a dictatorship.”
In a wider sense, I’ve also observed a direct correlation between racism, ultra-nationalism, and insular/xenophobic thinking. To this way of thinking, the solution is understood in “black-white” terms, where splitting hairs on cultural identity ever finer achieves a “pure” model of national identity that “strengthens” the country—or so they claim. Obviously, if such a goal is pursued it does not stop with foreigners, but will eventually turn on itself and attack the country. Recent history should provide more than a few cautionary tales of what happens to nations driven by ultra-nationalism, “racial purity”, and cultural scapegoating. It essentially manipulates an extreme form of tribalism to put the blame on a convenient target during a time of crisis.
Cultural pride is a fine thing, but when taken to such exclusionary extremes it becomes a self-destructive form of tribalism. Having once lived in Europe, I’ve seen this taken to ludicrous ends within an ostensibly “multi-cultural” country where unfavorable comparisons were made on the basis regional dialects, local culture, or even physical appearance. Even here in the United States, one runs across some incredibly inaccurate racial stereotypes. Recently, I ran spoke to a person of Finnish descent who was convinced all Finns must have blonde hair/blue eyes—just like them. Obviously, someone like me who has dark brown hair and green eyes isn’t of Finnish ancestry (!) Racism is a mental disease that can be used against anybody if one finds justification. But here I’ll end and continue this topic on my own blog.
Enrique
March 17, 2009
Hi KS, of all the thousands of comments that have been made in this blog, your last two posts shine out. You say it so well, even an elementary school child understands it. A Finn can be of any religion, color or ethnic group. Some Finns have just not woken up to this fact of life.
The aim of this blog is for people to air their opinions over racism/xenophobia in Finland. We do so because we want to make Finland a better country to live in. Racism/xenophobia/exclusionism is the most harmful matter that can besiege a society. It destroys talent, opportunity and growth. That is why in Finland there are laws and zero tolerance in government for racism.
intternetnetsi
March 17, 2009
Again you use word xenoPHOBIA and probably mean me on that too, phobia is irrational fear and i dont have irrational fears even if you try claim that i have. I have fears that everything happens like in every other country in europe and thats not irrational.
I have anakrophobia tho so i know what irrational fear is.
exclusionism is what multiculturalism is advocating, its separating and labeling people. There is no equality in multiculturalism.
intternetnetsi
March 17, 2009
“Racism is a mental disease that can be used against anybody if one finds justification.”
And being gay was mental disease not so long ago and in UUSR that was common way to get rid of people who didnt “think correctly”, that how yourkind of people describe racism means finland if one f***** big loony bin.
intternetnetsi
March 18, 2009
And about racism… people have accused that “we racists” speak under nickname and there is reason for that.
http://hommaforum.org/index.php?topic=3489.0
If youre interested im Hannu Matias Varjo born in 1977 and living in Tampere. That extra info so you wont mix me on my 2 “kaima”.
Biko
March 20, 2009
I have been living in Finland almost ten years, just to work, that is the only thing I am interested in about Finland. I have a real life elsewhere, Finland means just a job and this is not going to change. I have no interest whatsoever in knowing finns or what they call their culture, there is just nothing I like about this country and I would tell foreigners to not waste their time, work is work but they should have a life somewhere else, where normal,interesting and humane people dwell.
Enrique
March 20, 2009
Hi Biko, many thanks for your comment and welcome to Migrant Tales. I think a lot of people from diverse backgrounds do what you said. After traveling and working in many countries I have become quite adaptive. I like to enjoy the place (for better or worse) where I live. If I move to another place, I try to live to the fullest in my new hometown. We are all different. What ever works for one is the most important course of action.
Hannu Varjo
March 24, 2009
Sweden is quiet and peaceful, everything else is lie!
Or is it? http://sydsvenskan.se/malmo/article421610/Stenkastning-vid-brand-i-Rosengard.html
JPR
April 6, 2009
What is the point of this blog? It’s totally useless. There is no proper, constructive discussion going on here. A couple of Finnish racists arguing with bitter foreigners whose life Finland has destroyed. It’s really tiring reading these similar messages over and over again. I think those two racists should be banned from writing here, anyone can see that they are very childish, ignorant people. Their posts are getting quite annoying. And those foreigners complaining about Finland, well, if Finland is so horrible then why don’t you leave the country then? Nobody is forcing you to live here. If Sweden is so much better, then move there! I’m quite sure you’ll very quickly find something to complain about Sweden too once you’re living there
Enrique
April 6, 2009
Hi JPR, I think this is the second time you have posted a comment with us. Taking into account that this is a blog where you have to post comments, I believe it is quite commendable that there are so many people willing to debate an issue such as being an immigrant in Finland. I disagree that we are “complaining” about Finland. I believe one of the fortes of this blog is that it brings a lot of debate that has not even been discussed enough in Finland. How many newspapers in Finland have written editorials about high unemployment among foreigners? Few to none, I would suspect.
If we live in a democratic society, don’t we have the right to debate anything we want under the sun, especially those things that the majority culture may not prefer to debate because it is a sticky issue. The people will determine whether what is debated in Migrant Tales is of any interest or relates to their lives. Why should I or anyone have to move to another country? The suggestion, “love it or leave it,” has been used by almost every country on Earth. As for myself, I have learned a lot thanks to this blog about how some Finns feel about otherness.
To conclude, this blog is not useless. It offers a forum for some to express what they feel and their opinions. I not only consider that very valuable but important.
Irvman
April 7, 2009
I ended up being in Finland because I’m married to a Finn. Anyways here are three videos, the first one is a video of MOL trying to tell foreigners why they should come to Finland.
http://www.mol.fi/mol/fi/02_tyosuhteet_ja_lait/02_ulkom_suomessa/07_flash/Tyoministerio_WEB_ENG.html
This second video i made for a contest in Tampere during fall of 08(Mun Tampere contest by Mindtrek).
The winning video ended up being this one (a great video).
My point was to speak out for immigrants in Tampere because of the xenophobia towards them. Tampere still is a nice place to live but try to get a job here. Finns here enjoy the free labor from the foreigners seeking internships but the truth occurs as soon as the internships are over.
Just a few weeks ago we had a MOL representative at our local immigrant place give advice on how to look for jobs and when i discussed figures of umeployment and the reality of things (so much as to quit the bullshit) she sort of agreed how immigrants really are fucked. And finally I asked her that if MOL knows that among immigrants the unemployment is so high then why the hell are they letting so many immigrants in if the aren’t enough jobs for everyone. She didn’t know how to answer.
As highly educated as Finns are sometimes I wonder their true people skills. Immigrants are not figures and once the people holding the jobs that decide immigrants lives understand that then maybe immigrants will begin to be treated as people.
Enrique
April 7, 2009
Hi Irvman and thank your for sharing your thoughts with us. You make as good questions as “immigrant” did about employment. The most important matter for anyone to get a foothold in Finnish society is work. Without it we don’t cut it and do not have too much say. It’s a good thing you asked those tough questions to the MOL rep. We should be asking more similar question all the time.
I enjoyed your videoclip as well as the British guide to Tampere. The MOL videoclip was interesting as well. I had never seen it. There was a key word that they mentioned: Finland wants SKILLED workers. However, they do not mention that unemployment among immigrants is one of the highest in the EU and that it would be easier to find a job in other countries.
Many thanks again for sharing this interesting material.
willie
April 8, 2009
As a Finlander (read Finnish-American) I haven’t experienced too much difficulty during my 5 years in Finland, however as a bartender I occasionally find my self at the receiving end of drunken verbal abuse due to my accent. This usually occurs when I choose not to serve individuals who are overly intoxicated. On occasion I’ve been told to go back to Turkey or Iran (perhaps due to my dark eyes and hair as well as the presence of a tiny bit more pigment in my skin than the average Finn). Nothing to shocking and nothing that I’d file a criminal report over.
I recently had an opinion piece concerning immigration in Finland published in the New World Finn. You can read it on my blog at willielahti.blogspot.com
Yes, thats my real name. Please refrain from sending me death threats
although constructive comments and criticism are welcome.
uuno
April 8, 2009
kääk
Enrique
April 8, 2009
Hi Willie, welcome to Migrant Tales and thank you for sharing your views with us. Being a Finlander must have been a key factor in helping you integrate and understand Finnish society. I visited your blog and I was impressed by your explanation of mojakka, beef stew, used by Finlanders. Since Finlanders are “close relatives” of mainland Finns, it is interesting to note how Finnish culture has evolved in different parts of the world. It shows how diverse and rich our culture is.
I hope a lot of bloggers who visit us will migrate to your blog. I also write for New World Finn, which is a very good publication. Keep up the good work!
intternetnetsi
April 10, 2009
Being finlander probably help some but when i red blog i found what probably helped most.
“Should we cling to our own languages and cultures and hope that our stay here is temporary? Or should we become comfortable with the fact that this is where we live and that this is where we must forge a future for ourselves and for our adopted homeland? If so, we must make every effort to improve our language skills and to begin the gradual process of assimilation. Nothing comes for free, and certainly not without hard work.”
“When I first moved here I made up my mind that I would speak as little English as possible during interactions with my Finnish friends.”
And i admit that current finnish language teaching is fckd up because we just dont have resources.
“Under the current system refugees are prohibited from working”
No, in that old system “asulym seekers” who got temporary permit didnt get work permit. Goverment fucked up that law but you can google about it.
Immigration is burden for our society if we dont control who comes in http://hommaforum.org/index.php?topic=3791.0 and there you see most whiny and demanding groups, then look how educated they are and what religion they practise etc.. Then we see those groups in TV as model of “cultural richness..”
intternetnetsi
April 10, 2009
Enrigue you maybe want to look http://www.kolumbus.fi/matti.sarmela/Suomen%20perinneatlas.pdf
There is something interesting about finnish history in pages 25-26
“Itämeren suomalaiset. Arkeologiassa on nykyisin hyväksytty käsitys, että Itämereltä Uraliin ulottuvalla
pohjoisella havumetsävyöhykkeellä suomalais-ugrilaisia eli uralilaisia kieliä puhuvat kansat ovat alkuperäiskansoja;
heitä varhemmasta kulttuurista ei ole tietoja. Proto-uralilaisten on arveltu kuuluneen jo myöhäisglasiaalisen
ajan (15 000-10 000 eKr.) asukkaisiin Itä-Euroopassa.”
EvilFinn
April 18, 2009
I’m a Finn from a little municipality of the rural areas of Finland so seeing a foreigner here is not very common. Yet we have had some exchange students. I would love to share my thoughts about this subject because I think I understand a bit of this problem form both sides now (thank to this blog).
I remember when an exchange student from Nigeria was in front of our class one day and he talked about himself, his culture and his opinnions about Finland. He really brought sunshine and rainbows and other good things in to the classroom that day (not literally) =D He was something new and fresh to us. It happened so long ago that I can’t really remember what he said but I remember that I really enjoyed that class.
Then there was this one exchange student from Australia. He was really nice too and had some interesting things to share. We asked him if he could say something in Finnish and he said “ruisleipä” (rye bread). I remember that we laughed because it was so exciting that someone even tries to learn our language. He thought we laughed at him.
That’s where the basic problem jumps in. Finns (not trying to generalize) fear to speak English even if we know how to. We fear to make errors in our speech (grammar, pronanciation etc). That basically means we remain silent. We didn’t tell to the Australian the reason why we laughed. So I believe the guy from Australia still thinks we laughed at him =(
(soon I’ll get to the point… patience, please!)
The last exchange student I remember was a disapointment. (Won’t tell you where she came from because I’m going to say bad things about her…) She came to our school praising her homecountry and telling us what is wrong in Finland and it was NOT any good critic… just something stupid from our apples being too small to us being [insert-a-bad-thing-you-can-imagine]. I didn’t make any contact to her because I felt she was an idiot. She might have been a golden person deep deep under her skin, but the first (and the second and…) impression was not good. And as she was an ass, she represented her whole country as a place full of stupid people (I know it’s not like that – she was just an individual and not the whole nation but people tend to generalize).
(And to the point)
I think that most of those people interested in Finland are not coming here to destroy us and our culture. That’s just ridiculous. But really… the guys from Nigeria and Australia taught us SO much about other cultures AND our own. So I do really agree to the point that some diversity by immigrants could enrich our little Finland.
The problem is that we still are very young nation at having immigrants so we really have no idea how to interact with them. Other thing is that it’s common here to “mind your own business”. So we basically stare to the people who really look foreign =D Stare out of curiosity, fear or hate (I’ll come to this “hate”-part later). I wouldn’t start a conversation with a foreigner for the same reason I wouldn’t start a conversation with a Finn-stranger. I’m minding my own business. I don’t want to disturbe anybody. So there will only be the stare… I wouldn’t avoid a conversation if somebody spoke to me but then the lack of small talk would really strike because I don’t talk if I have nothing to say. I would help and give directions if somebody asks though. I’d never be rude and I really have nothing against foreigners! So my excuse would be the fear of the unknown not racism. I think that most of the Finns are a bit like me. They don’t have anything against but they just don’t interact with immigrants for a diversity little of reasons.
Then there’s those who shout stupid things to foreigners and act like idiots. This group is a minority. But even one stupid individual can ruin everything. The first group (the ones that do nothing) and this group (the ones that do stupidities) combined… well… I understand why you call us racists… I understand why many of you don’t want to stay here. I think it’s sad. I love my country ofcourse but this thing is sad. I have realized this a while ago – that’s why I started to do a little research and found this blog.
I do believe that changes can happen quite soon. My generation (oh.. I’m 19 years old btw) and next generations will have more and more interaction with foreigners – good and bad – so it’s just a matter of time that we Finns realize that foreigners are people just like us – not some aliens. The effect of our history (being part of Sweden and Russia, the wars…) as a block is fading really fast. etc…
And I must admit that Finnish bureaucracy is invented in hell =)
We’re not evil. Or at least I hope we aren’t…
Please respond and correct my thoughts (and sentences ;D )! (And feel free to ask)
Enrique
April 19, 2009
Hi “Evil”Finn, thank you for your insightful post and welcome to Migrant Tales! You are the hope of this country and I am certain that there are many, many other young people (middle-aged/senior citizens) as yourself. You are the example of the Finn that will ensure that our society continues to be built on justice and aims towards equality. You appear to be able to travel interculturally without the baggage of suspicion and hate; you are probably a polyglot and can write at least three languages very good text. In the US I was bombarded by how bad and lazy blacks were, how the Mexicans were this and the Amerindians were that; can you imagine that in the 1960s I was told by my own relatives in Finland that ALL Roma are crooks? One could not trust any of them… If you use your brains, however, you know that there is something fishy about such an absolute claim. How could 100% of the Roma be mistrusted??
Amid all this misinformation that one grows up with, you have to find the courage to investigate matters by yourself. That initial significant step to try to accept people for what they are (not where they are from), can be one of the most important decisions in your life. It can really open up your world and such an attitude can impact you throughout your life. Just think how short life is and how little time we have on Earth to savor all the beautiful things and experiences that this world has to offer. How do I know? I embarked on that journey in Los Angeles many years ago and I am grateful I did.
EvilFinn
April 19, 2009
Thank you Enrique for your respond!
Enrique says: “can you imagine that in the 1960s I was told by my own relatives in Finland that ALL Roma are crooks? One could not trust any of them… If you use your brains, however, you know that there is something fishy about such an absolute claim. How could 100% of the Roma be mistrusted??”
Actually I can imagine. My grandmother told about the Roma in Finland. When she was young the Roma already had a bad reputation of being crooks as you mentioned it. My grandmother told that she had seen a group of Roma… well… being worth of their reputation… But as my grandmother also said, it happened decades ago and this is now. She said that not all the Roma were/are bad but it’s really hard to gain trust when even a little group feeds the flames. As I said in my previous post: even one stupid individual can ruin everything. All the Roma are not crooks – I even think that majority of them is good people.
I remember a short documentary (can’t remember the name) of this issue on TV. It was about the bad reputation of Roma in Finland. People are just too suspicious and tend to generalize and because of that one family in the program had serious trouble getting jobs. They really wanted to have honest jobs and they were unbelievably hard for them to get! I think that the whole program was/is good, educational and could be something suitable for schools in Finland. At least it really crushed the misinformation I grew with!
I hope all this misinformation will die in time. I understand that my grandmother (and some other older people) will be cautious for the rest of her life but younger generations should have a more and more modern view on this whole thing. We are not taught to be racists but then again we are not fully informed about these things either. Most of us just don’t have enough knowledge about the problems immigrants have in our country.
The world is globalizing. Foreigners will play a bigger and bigger role in our country in the future. My opinnion is that Finland should have a little update on our education system. We have good education about geography and other cultures but really nothing about immigrants in our own country. I’m not talking about a major change here. If we could have couple of lessons from the immigrants (who have been living here for a while) about their lives. Maybe some short introduction to their culture/life before moving to Finland; something about adapting to this culture of ours… things like that… good and bad things. I’m not talking about 45 minutes of whining how bad Finland is – that wouldn’t do the thing. I’m talking about having Finnish people to realize that immigrants are real people too – that comes from the (good kind of) interaction between Finns and foreigners. School is always good environment for this kind of thing. …Uh, I don’t know… Please share your thoughts about this one!
Enrique says: “You are the example of the Finn that will ensure that our society continues to be built on justice and aims towards equality. You appear to be able to travel interculturally without the baggage of suspicion and hate; you are probably a polyglot and can write at least three languages very good text.”
Enrique says: “Just think how short life is and how little time we have on Earth to savor all the beautiful things and experiences that this world has to offer.”
Thank you, Enrique! I really appreciate these words. =) I have thought about how short life is and how my story is just in the beginning (meaning that lukio [the upper secondary school] is at end for me). I try to be open-minded but still carry my values. I have thought that I’d take a language course (4 – 6 weeks maybe) in a different country. I think I would get some golden moments, new views on life and some courage to speak with foreigners (etc) from that. Really looking forward to it. =)
Enrique
April 20, 2009
You may be you young, “Evil”Finn, but you show a lot of intelligence for a young person. I agree with you about how Finland will change. Everything changes everywhere, even ourselves. I encourage you to go on that language course. Many of us who leave for long periods never return the same person because we have seen new things.
If you look at our history, many of them are about traveling and how they changed their lives. One of the most fascinating travelers that I have read of is about Alvaro Nuñez Cabeza de Vaca. I don’t know if you can find anything in the Finnish language, but there are many books on him in the English language.
I have very good Roma friends. Some of them I have known for over 30 years and we are good friends. The catch is that we attempt to pass through culture and our own prejudice in order to accept the person for what he is.
One of the misconceptions about ourselves as Finns is that we do come from diverse cultural backgrounds. I believe that relations between some Finns and immigrants will improve when there is more attraction. The saying “good business makes good friends” is so true. The whole idea is that we can benefit and find synergies to enrich our society and community. Moreover, I do not think that cultures are SO different from each other. The differences and wall we build are in between our ears.
So good luck in your endeavors. You will certainly live a rewarding life because you have already noticed that there is beauty in diversity.
alien
April 22, 2009
Dear Evil Finn, your comments was one of the most insightful and honest comments I have seen in this blog. Congratulation and I wish happiness and warmth through all your life.
Enrique
April 22, 2009
Dear alien, it was very nice that you dropped by. Good to hear from you again.
jamnas
April 27, 2009
I am an immigrant in Finland,having lived here for just over a year now I cannot call myself an expert in the matter being discussed here because most of you guys have lived here longer than I, but I believe this is issue boils down to just common sense.The basic trait that drives humanity is self preservation and the people who understand that, I believe live better with themselves and the decisions they make.I come from Africa and centuries ago my forefathers made the mistake of welcoming invaders who wanted to civilise us with their cultures and religions and look where it got us.Had we not done that and had been wiser as to what we took in from other cultures and had been less tolerant to these self seeking bastards,I dont think we would be in the situation we are now,so kudos to Tiwaz for standing up for what you believe in,in the end thats all that matters,I dont believe you are a racist,you just tell it as is..and people find that hard to swallow..in the end you have a working nation,we dont..so something must be working for you guys..and dont mistake me for condoning racism..alas I would be on the receiving end of it..So guys adapt to the place if It does not work for you..move on,thats what am planninig to do.cheers!
Enrique
April 28, 2009
Hi Janmas, thank you for sharing your comments with us. I tend to disagree with you about Africans embracing foreigners and that is why things are so bad today. In first place, the white European colonial powers were militarily much more stronger than the natives in Africa and I am certain after slave traders started rounding up Africans, the word got around pretty fast that these newcomers are out to enslave us. It has nothing to do with acceptance — but on raw might and economic subjugation. The other factor is that we live in the 21st century and our societies have become — like it or not — multicultural.
–So guys adapt to the place if It does not work for you..move on,thats what am planninig to do.cheers.
This sounds like a love-it-or-leave it approach to things. It is a bit odd coming from an African. Taking part in democratic society and debating openly issues is adaption. If you have developed your independence to such a point that you are ready to move to other countries, as you are encouraging others to do, you should understand that people can have different opinions and debate them openly in society without persecution. That is how our societies are modeled. There is freedom of movement and freedom of speech.
jamnas
April 28, 2009
Am sorry if I come across as somewhat insensitive to the plight of immigrants here,and I know that nobody likes to leave the comfort of their homelands and the familiarity it offers but somehow for reasons that are not of our own making we find out that we have to.
We all harbour utopian views on how the world and humanity should be and what not but history and reality tells a different story,it all out about survival.So the Finns are not a smiley bunch and dont engage in chat chat with people,look at their geography,climate and history and tell me what they have to smile about but they survived.Am not trivialising the issue here but I believe when it comes to culture and the way of living,it is we that have something to learn from them.They are a bunch of 5 million so all the more they should be suspicious of foreigners and overprotective of their identity..I know I would.Being an African does not exclude me from being rational and realistic,and seeing why things are as they are..we ask for acceptance but we are unwilling to accept the truth, that we are the outsiders and we are the ones who have to make ourselves acceptable..If that means I have to make an effort to learn the culture and language,so be it,in the end if that may not be good enough for them because I have this weird accent and suspicious looking dark skin that scares the old ladies and the kids,well I did my best and thats their loss because I was willing. Call me naive but I know whining will not get me anywhere. p.s the destruction of Africa did not start with a soldier bearing musket ,it began with a merchant and a priest holding the holy book..this is not the place for that discussion but it kinda puts things into perspective..it was all very benign..
Enrique
April 28, 2009
Hi Jamnas, thank you for your comment. We all understand that life is hard and that reality forces us to accept things we do not like. However, society is based on ideals, values and trust. If these do not exist we undermine our way of life. I do not understand why you think I believe that Finns should adapt to immigrants. It is, in my opinion, a two-way street. We need positive attitudes and a growing environment for both groups to coexist. And there comes the challenge that immigrants place on a society: they test its good and negative points because those values that almost everyone considers normal do not apply but may show the best or the worst of us.
Let’s find solutions on how to solve the problems. I, believe, that one important component is acceptance of the “other.” This, I believe, is still in small albeit quantities but growing in Finland. Finns will understand in the end that immigration is not a negative matter but something that could benefit the country. The saying “good business makes good friends” makes a lot of sense.
You are right about the destruction of Africa but it was all a form of colonialism imposed by the sheer weight of might. I am certain you have read Chinua Achebe’s “When things fall apart.” It gives a very sad account of how society fell apart in Nigeria with its British colonial masters.
jamnas
April 28, 2009
Am sorry if I have implied in anyway that you believe that Finns should adapt to immigrants,all am trying to say is most Finns believe and am sorry if am wrong on that, what they have is working for them,and why in the world would they want to change any of it,so the hard task is to convince them otherwise,but do we have the answer to that? enlighten me.Does the situation of immigrants in Finland need to improve?most definitely yes..but sincerely speaking we have to courageously bear most of the weight of the burden so that in the end if things dont turn around for us,we can honestly say they lost out..
Enrique
April 28, 2009
Janmas, you are right and I am very grateful for sharing your ideas. However, if we have people from different cultural backgrounds society must find a way of integrating them. They have to do a lot of work as well as the majority culture. If we fail in this task, we get those ghettos inhabited by dysfunctional members of society.
I agree that immigrants must do a lot of work and I would think that they do. Why would you want to leave everything behind and move to a foreign country just to be worst off than in your former home. There is nothing wrong with people who want to live a better life. That in itself is already proof that people want to integrate and improve their lives.
Vick
May 2, 2009
lol cheers for the VERY useful information pple
mecheng77
May 2, 2009
I can answer ‘yes’ to almost all of the questions. I’m of Finnish heritage and live in Oklahoma. If an Okie is smiling at you and has a friendly word, know that you have a knife in your back. These guys are very hostile to outsiders and it doesn’t matter what color you are…and I appreciate it may be more difficult for colored folks…I think people are people, generally insecure with inferiority complexes.
Viktor
May 9, 2009
The answer is simple. Finland is for the Finnish. You have a problem? Then leave.
Enrique
May 9, 2009
Hi Viktor, can’t you offer a more intelligent response? Your suggestion is tantamount to sticking one’s head in the sand.
Observer
May 13, 2009
Hello.
I’ve been reading some of the comments and at first it wasn’t my intention to post in this thread. However, I can relate to what both foreigners and Finns are saying and after returning to my home country and processing all the cultural clash I had in Finland, I would like to share my views on the subject:
I’m Latin American and I spent a year studying in Helsinki.
Is Finland racist?
* Racist: one that acts actively or passively, physically or verbally, with the intention to damage a person from another nationality. Everyone is biased in their own thoughts but if you act on it then I consider it racism.
I think there there are 2 sides to this story. The first answer explains why non-racist Finns feel injusticed when foreigners refer to them as racists. The second answer explains why foreigners think Finns ara racist.
1. Finnish culture is not shaped to welcome foreigners or even Finnish people who are unknown to them. It’s an inbred reserved nation based on individualistic values. Think of it as an ‘island man’ community. People praise being self-sufficient and they feel strong about it.
This explains the overeducation, the saving-face attitudes, the generalized jealousy, everyone lives alone, everybody does all sorts of activities.
It’s like willing to be a perfect solo machine in all levels, physically, mentally, socially (at self interest), emotionally, etc.
Should they do it differently? I don’t think so, people are what they are, period.
This is probably why some Finns have replied to this thread. They are not racists, they just don’t care about being nice to strangers of any sort and there’s nothing wrong with it. There really isn’t! No one should be forced to be nice or to welcome anybody.
BUT HEY, Finns gotta take the heat when people say that they are frigid when it comes to human relationships. Direct side effect of being individualistic. Right?
Are Finns racists, no, they fucking suck!
2. The Finnish society does look down on Asians-Africans-Latin Americans, specially when it comes to education, at the pace that other selected EU nationals are respected. There’s a ‘country development thermometer’ that we all secretly know about and it is responsible for the racism. I.e. Eastern Europe is worse than Western Europe but it’s better than, let’s say, Africa.
This is a very blurry subject and in my opinion, it sets the climax of the discussion.
This ‘looking-down’ factor is rooted in people’s minds and is not openly discussed. This is denied by people and this does happen everywhere.
If Finns see foreigners as inferiors (as opposed to equals) then there’s no respect. If there’s no respect, this opens space to misunderstandings, biases, passive hostility and in extreme levels, racism!
Now, here’s a little secret: foreigners also look down on other foreigners, according to the ‘development level’ of their passports.
I believe that’s where all the racism comes from. Like a big War board game with a ranking of countries that defines how good you are. And now with a few kinks as blacks gained space worldwide over the centuries as a result of their success in music, education, politics etc… or the Chinese, who are not that comunist after all!
I think these 2 answers take up the general feeling towards racism in Finland but of course there are many exceptions to the rule there are all kinds of people everywhere.
Enrique
May 13, 2009
Hola Observer, thank you for taking the time to share your ideas with us. One of the matters that interested me was what you said about Finnish society being too individualistic. Possibly this aspect of self-reliance may be taken too far in my opinion, which explains that when you are old you are forgotten in some cases.
There is still a too strong sense of “us” and “them” and this creates a problem. Contrary to other countries that have had lots of immigrants, for some the journey to be accepted is a long path. Another interesting point is how society looks down on people who do not have work. If you lose your job in Finland, it is like losing a life and become a destitute. If employment is an important value in Finnish society, is it a way of manipulating and excluding certain foreign groups? This would be an interesting aspect to study seriously.
Even so, I hope your stay in Finland was rewarding.
Observer
May 14, 2009
Enrique:
Replying to your observations –
1. Yes, individualism is probably the most praised trait of Finnish culture.
That’s how they live their lives. But it’s not up to foreigners to pass judgement whether this is right or wrong. Foreigners should evaluate if they’re ready to be individualistic too and make a decision to stay or leave the country.
2. I don’t believe in the ‘us’ and ‘them’ feeling. It’s always ‘me’ in Finland. And to the foreigners who are still there, that’s how you’re expected to behave. Finns who don’t know each other are just as strangers as Finns who don’t know foreigners. Just stick out for yourself. The culture is like that.
3. When it comes to employment, look, unemployment rate in Finland is high. It is the same or higher than in most developing countries!
On top of it, it is also competitive. People who work at McDonald’s may have a Master’s degree and speak 3 languages.
First off, foreigners need to understand that Finland is NOT like the U.S. or the U.K where it is (was) relatively easy to get a job.
Now, Finland should have an equal job opportunity system, like they do in the UK for instance. That’s when foreigners are left out even if they hold the same capabilities as a Finnish person. The way I see it is if you’re holding a work permit, you should have the same opportunities as everybody else. If Finland can’t employ foreigners, then stop giving away the fucking permits.
Same goes for the asylum seekers. If Finland can’t accomodate asylum seekers, then stop giving away visas. Very fucking simple. In that sense, Finns need to stop complaining about demanding foreigners and do a better job at the voting both in next election.
But seriously? Finland is not adequate for immigrants.
Ok, if you’re educated and if you learn the language and culture well enough, it might work out but chances are you’ll get cornered to a ghetto somewhere in eastern Helsinki.
Even if you do make it, foreigners need to be ready to carry the foreign stigma for the rest of their time there.
I had a great time in Finland but it’s just a cool place to get free education and get wasted on the weekend. Personally, I don’t give a shit about moving there.
big wang
May 18, 2009
Okay, let’s stop the bullshit. I read many of these posts and they are all nonsense. Look, these are the facts. Finland is a backwards country. The men are cowards and the women are whores and smoke like there’s no tomorrow. The women will bear many children from many different men. Their goal is to get laid by a foreigner. Naturally, finnish men become jealous and want to beat the foreign men. Another thing, Finland is too “white”. It needs color. Mass migration of blacks, spanish, arabs and asians (all of whom are VERY good people) are needed desperately. Finland puts “homo” in homozygous society. Systematic diversification should be in the works. It will benefit finland greatly. Also, this will prevent inbreeding. Hemophilia will be a thing of the past. Finns will no longer have their eyes close together. Finns won’t have to act like they have a stick up their ass. Also, more jobs will be created in hospitals and policing because crime will increase due to assualt, battery and car theft. As far as the alcohol abuse is of concern… who cares, let those drunkards drink and piss on themselves. They don’t bother anyone. Finnish women want equality so bad , they should be able to talk and walk like a man and take a punch when hubby comes home. Does anyone know what happened to Roger from “What’s Happening”?. One last thing you losers, don’t hate finland just because it’s naive, ignorant, close-minded, backwards and retarded. Give it a chance. It will grow on you. It’s clean and beautiful country with absolutely nothing constructive to do. Remember kids, you won’t get killed in finland but, you’ll die from boredom.
chezdudu
May 28, 2009
Hi, I’m a half Hispanic(from Belize)half English guy. I’ve lived in Helsinki/Tallinn and St.P over the last ten years. Yes the Finns are racist(My Estonian wife was called a whore in english in Helsinki), so are the Russians big time. I don’t like it but why blame them they’ve got a good thing going high productivity etc, they don’t really need any extra workers except in a few key areas. I work for a multinational and Helsinki is a good staging post, but i rarely manage to meet any approachable sober finns even though i stay there for several weeks at a time. But i don’t expect to, i get what i earn and i go home (Tallinn). I hate the whining guys on here: “I’ve got a phd from a Abuja Uni in marketing and product design yet no body will enploy me.” It is always the case you value yourselves higher than you are actually worth. THe irony is that if you are half-decent you could actually make a killing in the developing markets, these are the growth areas.
Enrique, you need to slant this more fairly. Stop blaming white Europeans; especially those coutnries which had nothing to do with colonialism. The UK where i grow up is not intolerant but it has lost parts of its culture through multiculuturalism, whole English dialects and microcultures have been lost in metroplitan parts of Britian. Many people white and Black etc don’t know what British and don’t celebrate the country. There is no real empirical evidence to suggest multiculutralism works or more importantly will work. Countries like the U.S., Canada, Australia and S.America may work precisely because they are almost totally comprised of immigrants. I have a family history of employing endentured workers in Jamaica, i also have Native American blood and French cajun with a bit of spanish. THis is preceisely the mix which blurs racial and ethnic lines and makes it easier for integration. Even so there are still culutral issues huamns always find ways to distinguish,e.g. the ruling Belize elite tend to be more white than those who work in hotels.Finland is different it is very homogoneous and what is wrong with that, you are taking a concept from one part of the world an applying it to another. Without sounding like a dick has it ever occured to you that being very similar and homogenic is actually very different and atleast in western europe unique.
If you apply to work in a foreign and are given the job, then you have every right to work there within reason on the understanding that you wont be abused and treated like a 2nd class citizen by the police force as can and does happen in Finland. But don’t expect people thanking you on the street. You earn what you earn, you pay your taxes and look after your family. However bad you are treated you are the guest and free to leave.
Things change however, if you meet a Finnish girl or you bring a partner with you. Maybe you start a family. Unfortunately most Finns in my experience see this as theft and a kind of rape, the reality is that it hurts these people to see you integrate into their society and take their women. I will accept low grade instiutional and personal racism but i would never want to live in Finland permanently or start a family here. Children of foreigners even half-foreigners are not treated adequately, children easily pick up on the constant low-grade suspicion of foreigners. I don’t want my children growning up wonderin why they are disliked by grown adults.
The bottom line for me is Finland isn’t ready for a multiculutral society and maybe it never will be. I don’t think this is necessarily a bad or a wrong thing. In the context of large parts of the world it amy be different but this is their choice. As migrants we should all give and take, if we want to live in very homogoneous societies then we may have give a lot more than we take to live in finland. Personally i will move to the US with the money i’ve earned and i will have taken what i wanted and hopefully given what is acceptable to the people of Finland.
FinlandSucks!
June 6, 2009
Well, interesting discussion going on here. I am still trying to recover from the nightmares and horrors I have been through in Finland, police brutality, institution racism and horrors of every social abuse by the finnish populace. The door men in the resturants will even refuse you entry to nite clubs because of the color your skin. I had the chance to speak to a door man privately, who told me they often have a meeting among all door men and night club owners on the quota of black people that can be allowed entry into each nite club per weekend nites or week days. Finnish people are just too xenophobic, I lived in Finland for more than 13 years and I don’t have any Finnish friends even though I have studies and worked in finland during these years. Most of the friends I made while living in finland are foreigners. Usually, University networks are very important to your future professional life, but I don’t even when if any of my ex course mates from the university are still alive or dead. I have searched some names on facebook out of curiousity, those I found even refused to add me to their face book. This are guy you spend over 5 years with in the same programme at University. People, I don’t live in FInland any longer, anytime, I think of Finland, I feel this cold shrill down my spine and shiver. Finland will never change. I feel sorry for the immigrants their. How hopeless and desperate they are to continue living in such pain and bitterness. This life of lonliness and isolation is not for me. Live is too short, don’t waste it on living in a country and among people who hates just guts!
alien
June 10, 2009
FinlandSucks!
I totally understand you. I have also left that mental hospital. There are many immigrants that want to leave too, but that is not easy for every one. If the immigrants had a Finnish passport that could be easier for them to leave the place. A lot easier. But Finland dont give passport to immigrants. It takes years and many immigrants are yet to be naturalized. There is a law that enables those who have been living in Finland for 5 years to work and live in other EU countries, but that law is not for the refugees. It looks that refugees are prisoners in Finland. I myself lived in Finland for 14 years and I am a refugee. I was lucky that I found a job in sweden and my employer helped me to get that job and therefore to get rid of that mental hospital. But I have 2 degrees and 10 years work experience. Some thing which is not so easy and therefore most of the immigrants are like people trapped in such an unfriendly environment.
I like you some time feel pity for those who are trapped in that place and I hope god help them to break free just like the way help me. Finland is so terrible that even the Fins here in Sweden are reluctant to live in finland, even though some of them do not speak swedish very well.
I am 100% with you on this that life is too short to spend in that mental hospital. I hope where ever you are you do great and feel good and never see sick people of that mental hospital.
Foreigner
June 10, 2009
Hi people I have been reading each of yours comments for many days and I really learn a lot from all of you.
I am a foreigner from the Balkan countries or Ex Yugoslavia we had really war and lot of problems in our place because of the Nationalism.
Back to the topic; I have a Finnish wife and she is unique and very understandable, very kind too and not at all selfish as most of Finns are.
I have been for almost 5 years living in Finland, I study and work same time. I am satisfied and thanks again to my wife that she has helped me a lot to succeed in this country.
I have to admit that with out her honest help at the beginning I would be lost in this place, because I know how hard is for foreigner to survive with out help here..
I don’t think that all Finns are racist; there are too very racist Finns, like everywhere else in the world.
But one think that bothers me is that there is not paid much of attention regarding unemployment among foreigners.
Most t of us foreigners are somehow refused to be helped by the society and institutions in Finland, or simple they just don’t care much of it.
For example for all this 5 years in Finland I do not have Finnish friends except my wife relatives, all my friends are foreigners, and this tells a lot about the Finnish society.
I feel very sorry for the foreigners who are disappointed in Finland, and I hope that a change will come for the better future of Finland and its entire people living in Finland.
Enrique
June 11, 2009
Hi Alien, great to hear from you and posting a comment. The treatment that some immigrants have received in Finland is shameful. In 1994, immigrant unemployment stood at 53%! Even so, I am happy that you were able to get on with your life in Sweden. Good for you!
Bob
June 14, 2009
Hello all pleasure talking 2 u, thanks for all your reviews and comments its indeed great. Now about the racist issue i have almost read all your comments and surprisingly your all right in ure own ways. I am a black in Finland, but let me tell you guys (foreigners) you havent seen what they call racism. All you have seen is simple discrimination. I have lived in Ukraine, Russia, Germany, Denmark and a few months in UK, so i can justifiably tell that what your seeing in Finland is nothing.
Countries like in Ukraine and Russian you cant even move freely on the streets, you move in fear because you can easily be beaten actually stabbing is the level now and no body will even come to your help in brad day light. Police will see you being beaten and they will just look the other way in day time. Two Chinese gals were stabbed to death in Kieve, so when you talk about some hauling some insults to you on the street thats actually a blessing, because they havent attacked you or harmed you physically, you dont walk into a bank and the cashier decides to take a break when its your turn, you guyz havent seen, so lets debate degree.
Another thing is let us not forget where we come from that we ourselves also discriminate other tribes in our own countries, so were not also saints though we act like we are.
So in conclusion am not saying that Fins dont race but its not to the degree you make it look like, with jobs yes but thats one field there worse countries. UK has been around the world a long time and also wasnt like this, Finland on the other hand is still new but looking at the level of hospitality and chances of even working freely, guyz lets cut it some slack.
Enrique
June 15, 2009
Hi Bob, thank you for sharing your thoughts with us and welcome to our blog. Although Finland cannot be compared with countries such as Russia and the Ukraine in the treatment of foreigners, there are also cases of voilence in Finland. One Spaniard studying in my hometown was clobbered with a beer bottle. Some Africans I have spoken to tell me that if they go to a nightclub they do it with 2-3 people since they fear being attacked by some drunkard. Moreover, Finland is a EU country, a Nordic welfare state, that upholds ideals such as social equality. Discrimination, as you know, can also be done psychologically.
Thank our social system that we are not like some other countries where, as you say, people are mobbed on the street.
Did you still live in Finland?
alien
June 15, 2009
Hi Bob and Enrique:
We have a saying in my culture and in my language which says “Hold on! If you have not made your bed wet yet, the night is long and fresh”. Simply means that my friend BOB: Wait a bit more and you would find the same cases in Finland too.
In October 97 I popped into the local bar in my neighbourhood in Espoo to drink a beer. After an hour or so when I was drinking my second beer, I got some bottle smashed into my head! Lucky enough I was in good shape and could defend myself(I was a junior Boxing champion in my country, and also spar partner for Finnish super heavy weight champ in Helsinki). In the course of defending myself I hit badly the one who had hit me. I took a bit hard on him, to avoid anyone else to join him. It is a part of Finnish culture that they attack you in group. When they are alone they don’t have guts to defend themselves. Anyway, since every body saw I just defended myself and was calm and did not start the fight, they could not blame me and take me to police. They just sufficed to say “Saatana!!!” when I smashed his ugly white face. After a few months, I noticed a car is chasing my car for some time. after about 5km he put a rotating signal light on the roof of his car and made me stop. He first checked me if I am drunk. I was not. Then he said ok, Go! I continued and again after 2 km he again signalled me to stop. I stopped and this time he said that I have to go to Esppon poliisi for some investigation around midnight!!!
In police station they interrogated me about that fight and I explained what happened. No body had charged against me and I had not been convicted anywhere, however they took my finger prints and picture with numbers the same way you see in the movies when some body goes to jail. This is not the end of it. In 2004 when Finland called me the treat against his security, when my lawyer asked about my files and history, one of their thing was that event in 1997!!!
7 years after that event, in which I just defended myself, I had not been convicted any where, and based on law should have been removed from my history even if I had been convicted after 5 years, they mentioned this among the reason that I have threatened Finland! Now I ask BOB or whoever, does ever happened to him in Russia, that the whole country want to destroy a person?
Well my friend, “Hold on, if you have not made your bed wet, the night is still long and fresh” !
Salute!
Enrique
June 16, 2009
Hi Alien, nice to hear from you. I hope you are well. Back in the 1990s much of the police did not have any clue about racist crimes. Inactivity was the way some of them supported it. Some police indirectly approved such acts by not doing anything or dragging their heels. I do not know about the laws of those times very well, but I am certain that the EU must have changed some things in this respect. Before EU membership it was very difficult to sue somebody for racism.
The first time I heard about violence towards blacks in Finland was in Turku in 1979. He was a Kenyan student who told me that people yelled at him in the street and even threw stones at him. A recent EU survey on the Somalis in Finland confirmed this kind of treatment to this group.
I do not have to find out the circumstances of hostile behavior towards anyone. There are no ifs nor buts – it is totally unacceptable as is racism. Sensible people in Finland would also be shocked by that type of behavior.
How do we know it is still a problem? If we look at the ongoing debate on immigration in Finland and the comments in this blog, some are always arguing how ignorant, unskilled and useless immigrants are. It is as if immigrants were a threat to this country when, in fact, it is the opposite. Too many Finns think this way since even in the political arena there is too little leadership in this area. Kokoomus speaks positively but then you get one of their EU parliamentarian hopefuls who puts an ad in HS stating he will nip “foreign welfare bums” in the bud. The Greens are on the right track as are the RKP and Left-wing Alliance. The party that should have immigrants as a natural issue in Finland, Social Democrats, are even more right wing than Kokoomus. They are a bit like an ideologically sinking ship that is on the defensive because so many voters have turned their backs on it. When we speak of the Center party we should look at if the member is from rural or urban Finland. But they too hold very conservative views about immigration. Their former president, Urho Kekkonen, literally kept Finland sealed from immigrants and foreign investment during his presidency. There are other minor parties such as the True Finns, which are a joke. The True Finns are an offshoot of SMP, which means Suomen Maaseudun puolue. It was such a small populist party that some called it Sirkka Minä ja Pekka, the wife, and son of Veikko Vennamo, its founder.
Where does this odd suspicion of immigrants come from? I believe it has a lot to do with our history and the fact that many people in Finland are taught that mistrust of foreigners and discrimination are cool “virtues.” It makes you feel more of “a patriot” even though what you are showing is your harmful ignorance to society. The police are/were a good example in the past. Many people who are the most vocal about immigrants do so to lift their own feelings of inferiority. There job was to “keep out the foreign potential criminals and trash” that came to Finland. Even though they were the law, they spoke of “potential” criminals; if we keep foreigners out we avoid raising crime rates. It is a bit like the ludicrous argument that as long as we do not have foreigners we won’t have racism. They practiced/practice double standards: if you are a Finn you are innocent until proven guilty but if you are a foreigner you are in most cases guilty before proven innocent.
As you know, things have changed in Finland since the 1990s and 1980s. Even so, there is still a lot of work to be done to make immigrants a NORMAL and INTEGRAL part of our society.
intternetnetsi
June 17, 2009
Alien please tell whole story, you forgot parts where you got warrant on you because you ignored letters etc.
intternetnetsi
June 17, 2009
\”make immigrants a NORMAL and INTEGRAL part of our society.\”
Tumor is NORMAL and INTEGRAL part of our body.
alien
June 17, 2009
intternetnetsi Says:
Alien please tell whole story, you forgot parts where you got warrant on you because you ignored letters etc.
Alien:
Yes this part is also true, but it was not my point. My point is why when a immigrant defend himself against the crime should be persecuted and treated like criminals, while the crime is committed by some one else!!! This is what is not fair!
alien
June 17, 2009
# intternetnetsi Says:
June 17, 2009 at 9:18 am
\”make immigrants a NORMAL and INTEGRAL part of our society.\”
Tumor is NORMAL and INTEGRAL part of our body.
Alien:
BTW: If immigrants are tumor. Why 600 000 Finnish tumor has yet to kill Sweden and swedish society?
I thought tumors should be lethal!!!
OR?
Enrique
June 17, 2009
Hi alien, some Finns believe that immigrants are a sickness to this society. This type of an attitude is their loss because they have no idea about the positive things they bring. Moreover, it is a natural condition of humankind to migrate. If this did not happen, we would still be living like small tribes.
intternetnetsi
June 17, 2009
“Yes this part is also true, but it was not my point. My point is why when a immigrant defend himself against the crime should be persecuted and treated like criminals, while the crime is committed by some one else!!! This is what is not fair!”
You were treated exactly as finn. Did you report fight to police and ask for punishment? By your story i can tell answer is no..
intternetnetsi
June 17, 2009
“BTW: If immigrants are tumor. Why 600 000 Finnish tumor has yet to kill Sweden and swedish society?
I thought tumors should be lethal!!!
OR?”
There is good and bad tumors, good ones are only irritating and curable, bad can be leathal. Btw thats teached in school.
alien
June 17, 2009
# intternetnetsi Says:
June 17, 2009 at 8:56 pm
There is good and bad tumors, good ones are only irritating and curable, bad can be leathal. Btw thats teached in school.
Alien:
And if your country fellows in Sweden are good tumors and we are bad, what is your reasons for that?
alien
June 17, 2009
For those who asks why do u call Finns racist, please take a look at intternetnetsi posts.
M. Dubois
June 17, 2009
Hello everyone, very interesting comments! I am French Canadian (Swedish and French heritage) living in Helsinki (married to a Finnish woman), and I’d like to share my thoughts on being a foreigner in Finland.
In some ways, I enjoy living in Finland. I have many Finnish friends, most of whom have been warm and welcoming to me. And I enjoy the clean and relatively safe streets, the solid public transportation system, and the strong emphasis on public services.
However, I do agree with many of the comments here from foreigners: Finns tend to be a bit more xenophobic and racist than most Western nation/states — and a surprising number of Finns don’t know it, don’t believe it, or don’t care.
The crux of the problem seems to be that Finns have a hard time listening to criticism and communicating in general. Just read the comments above. When you confront a Finn about xenophobia, he or she will likely say something to the effect of “If you don’t like Finland, then leave” or “the problem is not with us Finns, it is with you foreigners” or “you foreigners just want our welfare money.” Absolutely amazing. These responses remind me of attitudes prevalent in Alabama (USA) in the 1970s, where I worked as a researcher for a year. Fortunately the people in the southern states of the USA seem to have done a better job of confronting these issues.
I have personally witnessed racism against black folks on the streets of Helsinki — particularly in the suburbs, but also in the center. Even I have been accosted on a few occasions for presumably speaking English too loud — and I am a white man! I can only imagine how hard it is for black folks. What is particularly frustrating is that we foreigners are expected to keep quiet on these issues simply because a high proportion of Finns lack basic debate and communication skills.
Finns, you need to learn to deal with criticism and how to deal with folks from abroad. Trust me on this: an anti-outsider reputation will haunt you morally, economically, socially, culturally, etc. If all you can say in response to criticism is “leave Finland,” then you have abandoned your own capacity for reason — and ultimately abandoned your own country. In any case, many immigrants in Finland cannot leave or are positions where leaving would be very difficult. I am more fortunate: I am a citizen of a country more affluent than Finland and I can leave — and I most certainly will leave. So I wish the best to all Finns and foreigners in Finland. It’s a global world now, and we have so many issues we need to work om together. Cheers!
alien
June 17, 2009
# intternetnetsi Says:
June 17, 2009 at 8:53 pm
“Yes this part is also true, but it was not my point. My point is why when a immigrant defend himself against the crime should be persecuted and treated like criminals, while the crime is committed by some one else!!! This is what is not fair!”
You were treated exactly as finn. Did you report fight to police and ask for punishment? By your story i can tell answer is no..
Alien:
Yes if I would have been hurt, I would definitely report this to police. But since I could defend myself and did not get hurt, except it took a few hours that I took the glasses shreds out of my hair, I didnt report that. I was a bit tired or at worse lazy to report it. But I was totally innocent and did not start fight or disturbing any one.
Enrique
June 17, 2009
M Dubois, thank you and too bad that you are leaving. We need more people like yourself in Finland. The issue is a simple one. There are still too few foreigners in Finland and they are not organized politically, which explains why some Finnish politicians can use immigrants as political canon fodder. At the rate we are moving now — Finns dictating debate, angles of media articles and handing down policy — we already have a social problem on our hands that will grow as more immigrants move to the country. As a journalist, I feel there is a great amount of censorship on the subject because the Finnish media does not want to address the issues just like the Finns you spoke of not wanting to hear criticism. Understanding the big dailies like Helsingin Sanomat will NOT write nor care about your story, immigrants must write their own accounts, which is the reason why I started this blog. And hey, what can we expect from a daily that did not have the professional courage to write or question Finlandization or about the Russian refugees that Finnish authorities caught and sent back to the USSR? It was the same story in the Cold War. Finalndization “did not exist” and people who wrote critically about it did not understand Finnish foreign policy.
Enrique
June 17, 2009
Hi alien, you do not need to explain your innocence to anyone. If you are at a bar and somebody smashes a bottle on your head, what are you supposed to do – say thank you? Under Finnish law you committed a crime by hitting back. And then if you do, since you are a foreigner, the police are going to judge your actions twice as hard. In my hometown, the authorities had to do something about the hostility of some Finns on foreigners AFTER an idiot smashed a bottle in a Spanish student’s face.
Enrique
June 17, 2009
Hannu, I think alien knows that there are malignant and benignant tumors. Equating immigrants with tumors is nonsense. Society is not a biological or physiological entity – it is simply complex = society.
intternetnetsi
June 17, 2009
“But I was totally innocent and did not start fight or disturbing any one.”
And police knew that by how? Dont evade interrogation or they will use force as you have seen and maybe you learned that you cant evade police if they want to talk with you.
intternetnetsi
June 17, 2009
“And if your country fellows in Sweden are good tumors and we are bad, what is your reasons for that?”
I didnt say that you are, i said they can be and some groups are proven to be.
We had upperhand on sweden when you look on history (you know, next to eachother, under sweden rule 600 years and so), do you see difference finn migrating to swe and saudi-arabian migrating to sweden? There was social problems even with so near mass immigration and today you see burning houses and no go areas because of far immigration of people who didnt have any means to compete in modern information society.
intternetnetsi
June 18, 2009
“Hannu, I think alien knows that there are malignant and benignant tumors. Equating immigrants with tumors is nonsense. Society is not a biological or physiological entity – it is simply complex = society.”
I doubt that he knew.
And society is made by humans for humans, humans are biological and physiological.
Society is made by humans to help humans and our instics are made to help our survival. Anything foreign is threat and if threat is real then society push it out like cancer or healthy areas fortify themself against it, if it proves to be benefit then its assimilated in society.
Its foreign influences work to prove they are worth of it, your mistake is that you see any foreign as “enrichening”.
Look for example potato, it came and and people saw that its good so now its seen traditional dish in here. And it came with german tinkerers who also were good for us.
Offtopic. How its going in spain? is that much better than xenophopic racist finland where you couldnt compete?
Enrique
June 18, 2009
Hannu, you really like to jump around: first you speak of Finland and Sweden, move on the “mass” immigration and burning houses. Are you such an alarmist in real life? You make such statements because you know little about immigration or people. If you look at broken homes and children in particular, they get all messed up when their parents are watching each and every move. At the end of the day the relation is broken when only suspicion and mistrust characterizes it. Your statements about immigrants point to that. A “normal” relation would not be possible because of your disposition.
Enrique
June 18, 2009
–Society is made by humans to help humans and our instics are made to help our survival.
Humans learn. That is what makes us different from the animal world. There are some instincts such as survival, motherly love and a few others but we learn our world.
–Anything foreign is threat and if threat is real then society push it out like cancer or healthy areas fortify themself against it, if it proves to be benefit then its assimilated in society.
Look at it this way: It is natural among humans to migrate. They have done this ever since we came down from the trees and learned to be terrestrial. The unnatural thing that impedes this movement is prejudice that is fueled and spoon-fed inside nations. What happens in a globalized world when every nation teaches its children that it is the best, the purest the one that is right reinforced by suspicion of others? This system is upheld (nations and nationalities) in order to maintain the present economic and geopolitical order. If you get all gunho about your culture and become xenophobic you get aberrations such as Nazi Germany and their form of racial policies, which is an antithesis of multiculturalism.
Since we learn we can change. If we relied on instinct it would be difficult to learn.
intternetnetsi
June 18, 2009
Migration is natural, so is that unhealthy migration founds themself starving or killed. Last time multiculturalism was tried to force us it caused 30.000 deaths. We just didnt want to respect russian ways.
Migration when it comes as wanted and beneficial is normal, multiculturalism says everything is good what is lie.
Do you really think that Fazer, Gutzeit and such were accepted just because they were foreigners? They were accepted because they benefitted us.
Prejudice and suspicion is part of human nature and you cant take few million years of evolution off because you want to.
Main thing in humans is that you want to preserve your genes, closer other is more you do to help. Like classic train example, you would choose without hesitation to kill 5 unknown to save your brother if you dont need those unknows to help you save your family.
Humans have “alert system” and do you know what causes alarm? Well you knew it, it was unknown or known living thing, humans cause alarm on 100%
Childrens have only one selfdefence and its cry, what causes it? Threat and human threat is caused by different language/dialect/face in that order if different faces are visible since birth. One of my cousins “vierasti” me because i talked different dialect than his parents, others living in my dialect area didnt.
Yes we can learn, take that sour food is automaticly denied by baby but older eat it because its proven to be eatable.
Main think is PROVEN, if people act like you afraid then that doesnt help.
Well since you live in spain you didnt hear new news that about 25% of south africans rape and its not seen as crime, multiculturalism yeah! Im probably neonazi when i dont want that in here. Multiculturalism says i cant think that black are more probably rapers and have hiv, logic is against multiculturalism.
Instict is good and mainly its caused of what you see.
intternetnetsi
June 18, 2009
And you probably missed news that multicultural enrichers are moved to more monocultural housing because of fights.
Juuso
June 26, 2009
Enrique should be happy that we even took him to live here. too bad our country will become similar shithole as he’s home in future.
Juuso
June 26, 2009
“Finland a GREAT place to invest or Finland: love it or leave it!”
What have you invested in Finland? or those xxxxx gangrapists? Yeah, we are really happy that you have become to “invest” here your cultures crappy habits.
Juuso
June 26, 2009
“look at unemployment among foreigners, which is about four times higher than among Finns”
Thats because they are lazy and most likely black muslims.
alien
June 26, 2009
Hi Every body:
As you may have heard, there is a struggle between Iranian people and Islamic Regime in the streets of Tehran and other Iranian cities.
Islamic regime has stopped the mobile phone services, SMS, MMS, and monitoring the Internet connections to arrest people when they try to upload their contents into the Internet. The system and the equipments by which the Islamic regime is censoring and monitoring the Internet, is supplied by NOKIA. YES, NOKIA Finland. So Nokia is playing a negative role against a brave nation who are standing against a regime of terror and horror. Now it is up to Finnish people who protest against the Nokia action. Finnish people and Finnish companies should not stand by a dictator system which censor and kills it’s own people. Please remember Nokia or other possible Finnish businesses that this is a dirty and bloody business. You dont need that.
alien
July 1, 2009
Check this out:
http://campaigns.aicongress.org/nokia
the dude
July 1, 2009
Alien ….am not a finn but whatever happened to you in Finland,put it behind you and get a life.
Enrique
July 3, 2009
Hi Juuso, I have had to moderate and censor come of your comments because they smack at racial incitement, or in plain English are outright racist. If nobody has ver defined the word to you, racism: that is, when a person from an ethnic group is “inferior” to yours. As you probably do not know, that type of thinking was pretty much in mode among academic circles in the 19th and early 20th century, until “civilized” Europe showed the horrors of World War I that even got worse in World War 2. Fortunately we have learned something from such brutality, which have their roots in “racial” and national superiority.
Asking me to leave the country is as absurd as asking you to leave. I do not have to justify anything about my ancestral links to this country because I have the right to live here just like you.
One of the things you must learn Juuso is to act in a democratic society in a civil manner – not take potshots anonymously. Fortunately you represent a ever-smaller minority. If you are against people moving to Finland, that is your right as it is my right to have my opinions. But tone down your words and try to make more sensible arguments because you do more harm to your opinions this way. We live in a civil society where respect for each others’ opinions is the basic groundwork of who we are and aspire to be as a society.
Enrique
July 3, 2009
–“Finland a GREAT place to invest or Finland: love it or leave it!” What have you invested in Finland? or those xxxxx gangrapists? Yeah, we are really happy that you have become to “invest” here your cultures crappy habits
I will allow you to shoot yourself in the leg with this comment.
Mark Johnson
July 3, 2009
Juuso, that Finland’s unemployment rate among foreigners is much higher than most Western countries obviously suggests that the problem is not with foreigners but rather with Finns. Let me put even simpler for you: Virtually every Western country has more immigrants than Finland and yet all have lower unemployment rates among foreigners. That means that the problem is clearly with Finns. I am an American (IT professional) and I have lived in Finland for a half year, and before that in Sweden for a year. Sweden does a much better job of integrating immigrants and accepting them as fellow citizens and residents. And it pays off. Sweden, like America, actually attracts foreign talent, and that is why they are so much more successful in international business. The kind of xenophobic stuff I’ve seen in Finland would be unthinkable in practically any other Western country.
Enrique
July 3, 2009
Hi Mark, thank you for sharing your ideas with us. You make a valid point: the reticent attitude of some Finns to non-Finns did not only apply to opinions about people from different cultures. You make a very valid point: There are many countries to immigrate to. How many are willing to come to Finland? Why has Finland attracted to so few foreigners as opposed to Sweden? The Restricting Act of 1939 literally barred non-Finns from investing in Finland up to the mid-1990s, when Finland became a EU country. At the time, foreign companies were restricting from participating in forestry, mining, reining, shipping and securities trading. Foreigners could not normally own 20% of Finnish company and, with special permission, 40%. The Restricting Act is history and shows the general mindset of how the law saw foreign capital. That kind of nationalism hurt Finland more than helped it. It is interesting to note, however, that harsh laws in the past (pre-EU membership) on immigration also applied to foreign investment.
intternetnetsi
July 5, 2009
“Finland’s unemployment rate among foreigners is much higher than most Western countries obviously suggests that the problem is not with foreigners but rather with Finns.”
Let me put this simpler to you, look who are unemployed and what kind of works we have.
Enrique
July 5, 2009
–Let me put this simpler to you, look who are unemployed and what kind of works we have.
Could you be more specific? 20% unemployment is a way to high for a Nordic welfare country such as Finland to accept.
Augusto
July 6, 2009
Finns may be leaders in technology but sadly their ideology sets them back. Lets look at the big firms like Nokia. They hire foreigners because they understand globalization. Lived in Tampere for three years and not once was I ever able to get a job through an agency or MOL pages. Now living in the capital thought things would be better, it isn’t. Have applied for cleaning, construction and going to agencies but nothing. Funny had a city employee investigate why a firm saying needing cleaners quickly didn’t take me and when she called the company said that many of the customers are racist and don’t want foreigners cleaning. So Finns say; why you calling us racist? or Foreigners just come here to live off Kela! Finland is no longer just a place up north but another EU country where to migrate and therefore no longer little Finland just for Finns. Before any discriminating Finn says more stupid things about them not being racist I would say I could care less as long as they pay their taxes and my Kela comes in. Why because if you are not going to hire to let us pay taxes then quit complaining about us foreigners. Thats my opinion.
Augusto
July 6, 2009
Juuso=Jokela
Enrique
July 6, 2009
Hi Augusto, thank you for sharing your opinions with us. I think you hit the issue smack in the center: the vicious cycle of foreigners getting a job. Your case is not unique, I am certain of that. With Unemployment at about 20% among foreigners, it is, in my opinion, a shameful matter for a society like ours. Certainly we can look at a myriad of reasons why foreign unemployment is much higher than among Finns. One of the main culprits, however, are suspicion and ignorance.
intternetnetsi
July 6, 2009
“Could you be more specific? 20% unemployment is a way to high for a Nordic welfare country such as Finland to accept.”
http://www.mol.fi/mol/fi/99_pdf/fi/04_maahanmuutto/08_maahanmuuttotilastot/wulktyoll.pdf
In 30.4.2007 10% of americans unemployed and about 7% of finns. Doesnt seem so much difference. Exactly 55 more employed americans and rate would have been same (i assume ALL 20 to 64 year (1844pcs) old americans were in workforce so not sick/student/taking care of children in home etc… so actual number is probably lot less)
I already told you that and why its so etc.. in recent posts in other thread. Do you actively forgot or do you have dementia?
intternetnetsi
July 6, 2009
Augusto so “foreign” is race? Hows your finnish skills?
Augusto
July 6, 2009
Intternetnetsi, I’m not exactly sure where you are getting to with the whole Foreign question. But anyways since you are the sort of man that has answers and research rather let you have your own idea of what is a foreign. As far as your judging of my Finnish skills I’m satisfied with the Finnish speaking level I got. I can cope just fine and not looking forward to stress over a language that has no need outside of Finland. But since you are so thrilled about foreigners and their language skills in Finnish you should think about next time you go out to eat if a foreigner will get better service if he or she speaks English or speaks a non native Finnish. Don’t forget you are a Finn and will never be able to see or comprehend the position of a foreigner. Maybe if you are lucky you may meet a nice foreign partner and then judge.
intternetnetsi
July 6, 2009
“Intternetnetsi, I’m not exactly sure where you are getting to with the whole Foreign question.”
There that i didnt knew that im different “race” than for e.g. estonians and germans
“’m satisfied with the Finnish speaking level I got.”
Ah your satisfaction… try to get in level where employers are happy with it.
“can cope just fine and not looking forward to stress over a language that has no need outside of Finland.”
So why you are still in finland then, you clearly arent planning to live in here?
Translate this to me.
“Menet tonne yläkertahan ja sieltä otat siivousvehkehet, sitte tuut tänne alakertahan ja siivoot täst kerroksest lattijat ja akkunat. Kloriitti o sitte punases pullos.”
If you didnt understand that, had to use dictionary, translating or translating took much more than reading then i understand why you werent hired as cleaner. You know that in finland we have that odd thing called “using finland in communication”
And that “meet a foreigner” crap again, i know few, my friends and relatives are married to few, i grew up enjoying looking tv-shows made by one, eat regurarly in place owned by one, i was one as child, what more? i do have had short relationship with one does that count?
Augusto
July 6, 2009
Intternetnetsi,
“So why you are still in finland then, you clearly arent planning to live in here?”
Oh you are good, you got it all down. That’s correct Finland over other places in the world not worth it. It doesn’t take much to realize where people are welcomed and where others are dissed. I’m only here by default so I’ll make the most out if and ironically enough my Kela money comes in tomorrow
. See how easy it was to read your posts while having my free time unemployed and your taxes pay my living expenses.
“And that “meet a foreigner” crap again, i know few, my friends and relatives are married to few, i grew up enjoying looking tv-shows made by one, eat regurarly in place owned by one, i was one as child, what more? i do have had short relationship with one does that count?”
So Finns like to go abroad to get hitched because even Finnish women don’t think Finnish men are good enough. Most TV in Finland is bought from abroad because its cheaper. You like to eat cheap so you need foreigners to save you money. You must have been little when you were foreigner because otherwise you wouldn’t be a hypocrite. And no need to explain or figure out why you had a short relationship with a foreigner but hey obviously you crave different races. Like i mentioned earlier I will gladly pay my taxes once I get a job but until then intternetnetsi you and your family and your friends with jobs will have to pay my salary. I leave when I feel like it and that’s the beauty of it.
By the way very impressive small town, red neck, old style Finnish you got. Welcome to 2009 and update your native language.
intternetnetsi
July 6, 2009
“And no need to explain or figure out why you had a short relationship with a foreigner”
So you figured out accident and what happened? Are you shaman or something? She is dead by road accident you moron.
And that was not “old style redneck finnish” just northern dialect. You cant read or understand dialects? your bad. For your info southern finns find northern dialects wery fun and pleasing.
Matti
July 6, 2009
“By the way very impressive small town, red neck, old style Finnish you got. Welcome to 2009 and update your native language.”
That is obviously a dialect of some sort, possibly Savonian one. Dialect is one form of the local cultures, I have no idea why you so strongly despise cultural variety. Or could it be just wrong kind of cultural variety, as Savonians don’t make ethnic conflicts nor require “tolerating”?
But carry on, this “discussion” is interesting to follow…
Augusto
July 7, 2009
Intternetnetsi, “So you figured out accident and what happened? Are you shaman or something? She is dead by road accident you moron.”
Should have taken better care of your girl and spent more time with her. Instead now you like to take your anger bashing comments at strangers. Sad to see you were with a foreigner and yet you lack respect to others in the same situation as she was.
Augusto
July 7, 2009
Matti, By all means enlighten us about Finnish culture because you see in the integration programs we don’t really learn about dialects but now i learned about a new one and is not just some person being a redneck. And i apologize for the lack of knowledge on your culture but this is what this blog is for. If there is constructive criticism then welcome. Finns are rather shy and don’t like usually being talk back to so its annoying having to end on this sort of discussions to finally get to know each other well. Many points are made by proud Finns that know their culture well that feel insulted by outsiders lack of knowledge of it. You learn about Finland in geography class but its up to a Finn to educate about their own culture rather than expect for others to know it for them.
intternetnetsi
July 7, 2009
“Or could it be just wrong kind of cultural variety, as Savonians don’t make ethnic conflicts nor require “tolerating”?”
Exactly that, i dont want anyone who needs too much understanding and claims racism on every problem.
That dialect belongs peräpohjola dialect and its subgroup kemijärvi dialect. Its near of savonian dialect subgroup kainuu dialect by demography tho
I dont know how well i wrote it because as you know there isnt written dialect and im not linquistic so im not sure if all came right.
There are people who can tell where youre from with great accuracy by listening you.
“I have no idea why you so strongly despise cultural variety.”
I dont, i despise demanding and forcing cultural variety and cultural variety what really hurts our core values. People can have their cultures in their countries.
Read history of tatars in finland and learn. They came here for business and adapted finnish ways while kept their religion and language etc. And they didnt say “not looking forward to stress over a language that has no need outside of Finland”
angryman
July 10, 2009
Tatar’s were an incredibly small portion of the population don’t be so disengenuous as to suppose that represents an argument. I would like to see the genuine advatnage in an open border policy as opposed to a Australian talent based policy. Finalnd and Europe in general has no responsibilty to take migrants or asylum seekers. You have a responsiblity to the world in general but that should be focused on aid, development and trade. For every Somali, Burmese etc there are hundreds who lose out because we are investing our money into badly educated migrants who have no techinical or social skills to adapt to a western lifestyle. How many asylums seekers do the Japanese take? Zero. Have the Japs lost culturally or economically because they are 98.5% ethnically japanese? Are they held up as an example of zeno-phobic society? Enrique you are just as bigoted as anyone else. Stop expecting Finland to conform to your viewpoint. Go tell the Chinese and Indians to stop buying African farmland or sponsoring the Sri Lankan military. You want to make a difference. Go picket Beijing, thats the neo-colonialism, see what happens.
Enrique
July 10, 2009
Thank you, angryman, for sharing your thoughts.
–Stop expecting Finland to conform to your viewpoint. Go tell the Chinese and Indians to stop buying African farmland or sponsoring the Sri Lankan military. You want to make a difference. Go picket Beijing, thats the neo-colonialism, see what happens.
I am not asking Finland to conform to MY viewpoint. Read the Constitution and the and the Equality Act. These are laws passed by our representatives that we elected. This idea that I have to be quiet because in other countries they don’t respect human rights is a bit ridiculous.
intternetnetsi
July 11, 2009
“Read the Constitution and the and the Equality Act.”
Again that, read it yourself and tell how foreigner is unequal. If foreigner has same education and language skills than finn then i dont think there is measureable difference.
Its weird how someone who supports religious mutilations talks about equality. Arent childrens equal like adults?
Enrique
July 11, 2009
I have read the Constitution and the Equality Act. Why do you mix religious mutilations with these laws? Everytime you speak of one specific group you always bring up the same things. It is as if I were a person from x culture all the time speaking about the negative things about Western society. Stop thinking that people can be clumped into clean categories and classified in such ways in order to reinforce your stereotypes of them. There are all types in every society irrespective of their background.
intternetnetsi
July 11, 2009
“Why do you mix religious mutilations with these laws?”
Well arent they about that we all finns are equal? Is mutilated child equal with nonmutilated?
And i agree that you cant clump individuals on clear categories but groups you can with good enough accuracy. Thats how all works.
By great accuracy i can say finn probably have their children cristened and marry in church and be buried with pastor. My friend who is agnostic if not atheist like his wife had cristening for their baby and marriage in church.
My father is agnostic or atleast not religious, my mother was agnostic also most of my relatives are agnostic. Still my mother was buried by church and with pastor. But they were married by civil servant.
By good accuracy i can tell that about 20y old people are more prone to get in road accidents.
By good accuracy i can tell that its not good to hire or be near drunk. I knew one who were drunk most of time and same time was one of best workers but that doesnt change a fact that mostly they arent.
Do you want that i shovel ton of studies about how different age/sex/religion/race whatever groups behave differently. I dont judge individuals but i do judge groups.
Enrique
July 12, 2009
–By great accuracy i can say finn probably have their children cristened and marry in church and be buried with pastor.
So? Is that the only thing that happens in their lives? Is it the only matter that you can predict?
–I dont judge individuals but i do judge groups.
Here lies your big problem and what obfuscates your views of other people.
alien
July 12, 2009
Dear friend Enrique:
Your efforts in this blog is appreciated and the time you spend on making a dialogue streams and change happen is all understandable. However I would like to comment on this. The change that you and I are looking for is less a matter of discussion with Finns and more a matter of how Finland State see that as its own interest. If I use the close accuracy law of “Internetti” and make a generalization. Finns are mostly 2 groups. Passive ignorant, the majority, and aggressive ignorants like this Internetti, or some with disguise that we see in this blog. The passive one think mostly like this Internetti but are reluctant to express themselves as UFO silence is a virtue among Finns. The few pecent aggresive ones whose pride are hurt throughout their history try to come up strong. Discussion with this group unfortunately does not change any thing. What we discuss here is beyond the small world of a Finn. What I believe that make a change in the Finns attitude toward foreigners is the strong reality which impose itself into the State of Finland and make him to give space for grow to immigrants. When that happen, it is not really important how Finns think, they just have to abide with the law. I again appreciate your effort here.
Enrique
July 12, 2009
Hi my friend alien, thank you for the kudos. But I tend to disagree with you: I think that the amount of people that visit this blog shows that there is some interest in the subject. Change will come to Finland. The only way this can happen is by addressing the issue. If we look at what this country was 30 years ago and today, Finland has made big strides. It does have, however, a long way to go in order to accept people from different backgrounds. Look what happened in the United States. Did you know that up to 1967 marriages between blacks and whites were forbidden by the law in some states. Incredible, no?
intternetnetsi
July 13, 2009
“So? Is that the only thing that happens in their lives? Is it the only matter that you can predict?”
No.
“Here lies your big problem and what obfuscates your views of other people.”
Ok, lets stop goverment, banks, most businesses and insurance companies then. They do judge groups.
Enrique
July 13, 2009
–Ok, lets stop goverment, banks, most businesses and insurance companies then. They do judge groups.
So I am judged in a Finnish bank, insurance company by my ethnic background? Are you certain? When some businesses hire this must go on.
alien
July 13, 2009
My friend Enrique:
I hope I am wrong and you are right! Nevertheless it never lessen the importance of your job here, by no means. I wish you and us luck. Your friend Alien
intternetnetsi
July 13, 2009
“So I am judged in a Finnish bank, insurance company by my ethnic background? Are you certain? When some businesses hire this must go on.”
Not your ethnic background but your background. They couldnt care less if youre black, white, blue or dotted.
Tiwaz
July 17, 2009
Except if they notice that certain groups in certain ethnicities are HUGE insurance/credit risk. Then they judge you based on that. Because insurance and credit business is all about averages not about individuals.
Insurance companies make money by figuring out how much they have to charge people to be able to pay to that small percentage who have their insurances activated and that means they have to figure out what groups are risk.
For example young males will take big blow in insurances. RACISM! No, just reality that young males are most accident prone statistical group.
So will mountaineers. RACISM! No, again statistics.
If for example Malayans keep getting into accidents, then every Malayan will have to pay more because they are causing more costs.
Jaakko
July 19, 2009
I spent roughly one and a half hour reading comments on this site, and I have to admit it made me as a Finn both sad and angry. Your words carry so much anger and hate towards the Finnish society I can’t believe you really resided in my country. I don’t agree with many parts in this Migrant Tales “racism meter”. For instance it says:
‘Here is a short Migrant Tales “racism meter” for foreigners and minorities that can help you know if you are a target of discrimination in Finland:
1) I am self-employed (for some it is the only way of employment)
2) I’m unemployed (generally jobless claims among’
why does self- or unemployment automatically make you a subject of discrimination? There are many Finns who don’t have jobs they have degrees for – mainly because universities and such take too many students. If you have a fancy degree of biochemics – so do tens of Finns, and they know the language and the customs. And you need to know the language in order to work, no whining about that. It’s also true rasism or xenophobia or suspicions exist and Finnish degrees aren’t integrated to the foreign ones.
20% of all foreigners may be unemployed but that group isn’t homogenic. 10% of Estonians, 9% of Swedes and 7% of the Chinese are unemployed when 62% of Iraqis and 53& of Somalis are without jobs. Statistics also show that the all-foreign-percentage has dropped from 37 to 20 in eight years.
this quote baffles me:
‘
3) Finns often give me strange looks
6) A Finn treats me too nicely’
also some of you said in your comments that Finns don’t seem to notice you and don’t take eye contact, and you feel insulted from that. I live in Helsinki where you meet non-finnish-descent people everywhere – school, gym, street, shops, tram, bus, etc. I don’t look them into eyes because that’s what I do with everybody I don’t know well. It’s a part of our culture to respect everyones personal space, and not at all something ugly or rude. Likewise it would be stupid to call for example Italians rude because they come too close when they speak to you and interrupt you easily. Finns are shy and defencive and I’m not going to apologize for that.
I also fear that when I start a conversation with a foreigner, he/she might think that i give him/her ‘strange looks’ or am being too kind (whatever that means). So I have to make sure I A. notice him/her properly B. don’t give him/her strange looks C. am not being rude or too laconic D. am not being too nice (a terrible racist crime). Not to mention the likely language barrier, when this person doesn’t know Finnish and I’m afraid of using my English because I don’t want to make fool out of myself by making errors.
And stop calling Finns inbreed or sickly homogenic or whatever, there are proofs that Finns differ a lot from each other and five million people have gene pool big enough to ensure healthy population especially when many start a family with a person from a different corner of Finland nowadays.
Also multiculturalism doesn’t magically make things better. Diversity can also have negative effects on the society and cause crime and unstability. Generally people feel safer among other people that are alike with them by culture, religion and language. Too big differences have caused wars for centuries and many multucultural country have minorities who are almost at war with other minorities and the majority. It’s the human nature, I’m afraid, to divide people into ‘them’ and ‘us’. Someone mentioned Sweden as a multicultural wonderland, but they have also great difficulties with their immigrants, from which most are asylum seekers from muslim countries. I could even say Sweden has sacrifised its traditions and history to the shrine of multiculti. It’s almost a crime to be an ethnic Swede in Sweden.
Our politicians say us nowadays: Finland is multicultural now, and you just have to adapt to it. I believe it’s the host, not the guest who makes the rules in the house. I don’t want to feel guilt just because I happen to be a christian, white Finn, not now and not in the future.
But I do want Finland to be welcoming and friendly to its new inhabitants. At the same time I wan’t Finland to maintain its culture and society so that in the year 2100 you still could call this place Finland. I want immigrants to feel themselves like Finns and to say: this is my country also, and I feel pride for living here. Hopefully these things will happen in the future.
Enrique
July 19, 2009
Jaakko, for some reason, this particular post has got the most hits and readers. I think that people who can express their opinions in public about a certain matter are not “enemies” of a country. On the contrary, if you enjoy living in a certain country you have the right to make it a better place. The one’s we should worry about are those who keep their feelings to themselves and may one day explode in rage. It is always better to debate matters openly rather than to suppress such feelings.
–why does self- or unemployment automatically make you a subject of discrimination?
Because it is here were the key to the person’s integration in this society lies. If he finds no work, and is unemployed for many years, how can this raise his self-esteem? Differences in unemployment among Finns and immigrants is quite noticeable. There may be a number of factors that cause high unemployment among immigrants. One of these I believe is prejudice. In what degree this take place in some cases would have to be studied further. If you come to Finland and have no opportunity to get work, your only lifesaver is being self-employed. Running a one-man/woman company is in many cases an outcome of the prejudice one finds in the labor market.
It would be interesting to study why unemployment among Finns is still high despite robust economic growth. Have the politicians tackled this problem? Is it due to labor unions, laws or to a generous social-welfare system?
–And stop calling Finns inbreed or sickly homogenic or whatever, there are proofs that Finns differ a lot from each other and five million people have gene pool big enough to ensure healthy population especially when many start a family with a person from a different corner of Finland nowadays
I have not suggested that Finns are a “homogenic” ethnic group. If we study the ethnic makeup of Finland, we will find that we comprise of many groups. The problem, I believe, is ourselves. Since independence, Finns have tried to erase their rich cultural heritage by creating a cultural and ethnic prototype that only exists in our minds. Take a look at the 1940s and earlier about Finnish eugenics. A history book used at school in 1942 claims that there was in Finland a “Nordic race” (Pohjoinen rotu) and “Eastern Baltic race” (Itäbalttilainen rotu). I even saw in a book on Finnish history published in the 1970s mention that these two “races” exist in Finland! Even though we don’t teach eugenics at schools, we do keep the idea of “Finnish race” alive. Who is a Finn? Why is it so difficult for some to accept that a Finn can be from other ethnic, religious and cultural backgrounds? Even though there are legal matters that allow a country to claim you, it has a lot to do with sentiments.
–Our politicians say us nowadays: Finland is multicultural now, and you just have to adapt to it. I believe it’s the host, not the guest who makes the rules in the house.
No matter what the politicians or the laws of the land state, immigrants always have to adapt to their new environment. It is only natural. However, how do you integrate people into society? How do you inspire them to embrace your values? Do you force them to? Or do you punish them with the whip of prejudice if you think they are a burden on society?
In the year 2100 Finland will be a very different country and society. Look at Finland in 1900 and compare it with today. Being a Finn may mean many things. The definition will change but the meaning of home will not. No matter what you believe, no group has the right to claim who is a member of society or not. In the modern world we call that discrimination, prejudice, xenophobia. If you do not accept others as Finns that is then your problem/hang up not theirs.
angryman
July 22, 2009
Who is a Finn? A contentious question maybe! I believe however that you WANT finland to be a different country in 2100, ethnically and religously as well as socially. Can’t you see that this is your preudice as much as anyone elses. When someone expects they have a right to be a citizen of another country yet fail to respect the real and genuine heritage that that country has i call it racism. Few African-Americans will let the Slavery issue drop. Yet if a Finn talks about the years of oppression slavery, hardship and famine etc that my ancestors have suffered they are accused of Nationalism, racism and supporting eugenics.
Of course a society has a choice to choose who can and can’t live in a country which is there’s. What sort of world do you think we live in. Do you think i have a right to walk over to Norway or Qatar and claim a share of the Oil. The world you envisage is distopian nightmare in which rather than respecting culture, all culture is abolished in favour of a diluted world culture. In reality as we know most new migrants are unwilling to fully adapt and bring large elements of their original culture it will be this culture which will swamp Finnish culture.
Many i also be perfectly honest and say that my home would not be my home if it was a majority ethnic minority city, or if it had a majority muslim community. Maybe you think thats sad or evil but thats life.
Enrique
July 22, 2009
–I believe however that you WANT finland to be a different country in 2100, ethnically and religously as well as socially.
Cultural change is something you cannot stop. It happens because, fortunately, cultures incorporate traits that help them survive. As you know, industrial societies are multicultural (more than before) and globalization has brought the world to our doorsteps. The kind of “pure” Finland you speak of never existed because this country had been exposed to many cultures. But in order to create a fictitious idea of what a prototype Finn was, we created a lot of myths like the ones on eugenics. Finns are today multicultural, multireligious and from multibackgrounds. That is the reality and that is how matters will continue to evolve. In many respects, Finland is returning to what it was: embracing its new-old identity.
–Of course a society has a choice to choose who can and can’t live in a country which is there’s. What sort of world do you think we live in.
Finland is a EU country. Anyone from an EU country can move to Finland.
–Many i also be perfectly honest and say that my home would not be my home if it was a majority ethnic minority city, or if it had a majority muslim community.
Homes change. That is a fact of life. Each generation changes them because they see the world differently than you and I.
angryman
July 22, 2009
“It happens because, fortunately, cultures incorporate traits that help them survive.” I’m sorry but thats an entirely unproved and unlikely point; i seriously doubt that you can actually apply Darwinian Eugenics to a societal level. (I thought Eugenics were wrong – i.e. NAZI Social Darwinism which you have just propounded).
Incorporating Somali’s, Russians is in what sense a reversion to old values. I’m sorry but you seem to have no real understanding of Finnish history, or the raical make up of Finns. Nor even the anger which immigration is causing. The very fact that this Finland related topic is written in English demonstrates that wither you or most immgrants lack proficeny or are unwilling to use the language.
In parenthesis can you:
1. Explain how migrants lead to a necesary progressive dialetic and its relation to evolution.
2. Can you find the relevant genetic data which proves that Finalnd is a ‘mongrel nation.’ Rather than a relatively homogenous nation distinct from western scandanavia and Russia.
3. What historical link Finland has to Burma?
Enrique
July 22, 2009
–“It happens because, fortunately, cultures incorporate traits that help them survive.”
Read the history of civilizations. They always borrow new things from those they interact/trade or conquer. There is no such thing as a “pure” culture. All cultures have been influenced by others. Look at the food you eat, the books on your shelf, today’s television programs, raw materials… It is even more extreme today through globalization…
–Incorporating Somali’s, Russians is in what sense a reversion to old values. I’m sorry but you seem to have no real understanding of Finnish history, or the raical make up of Finns.
I understand enough of Finnish history to know that eugenics in Finland was only a myth/fairy tale used to give Finland an ideal racial prototype. In this part of the world, Slavs, Germans, Swedes, Russians and Estonians have mixed genetically and culturally. Finns are as mixed as any other national groups in this region. This applies to our culture as well.
–The very fact that this Finland related topic is written in English demonstrates that wither you or most immgrants lack proficeny or are unwilling to use the language.
We live in a globalized world where, if one wishes, could do this blog in Mongolian. I have decided on English. That is my choice.
1. Explain how migrants lead to a necesary progressive dialetic and its relation to evolution.
I don’t understand the question. However, if you are speaking about Marx’s dialectic theory, it could work in the following manner: thesis (old stereotypes/myths) + antithesis (immigrants questioning the latter) = synthesis (a broader view of society and of Finnishness).
2. Can you find the relevant genetic data which proves that Finalnd is a ‘mongrel nation.’ Rather than a relatively homogenous nation distinct from western scandanavia and Russia.
I never stated that Finland is genetically a mongrel nation. All I said was that Finno-Ugric languages are believed to have originated in central Russia. Even though the language may have come from this region, Finns have mixed genetically and culturally with groups in this part of the world. You should ask the Finnish anthropolgists/folklore specialists/linguists that came up with this theory last century.
3. What historical link Finland has to Burma?
Explain this one yourself.
angryman
July 23, 2009
Your above attempt at a dialect is a HEGELIAN dialectic not a MARXIST dialetic. The Hegelian dialetic (roughly synthesis of opposing ideas one the norm the other an alien theory) was one which describes the Prussian military state as the perfect state. Hegel’s philosophy was stated alongside NIetzsche’s and Schopenauer’s at the Nuremburg trial’s as key drivers in Nazi ideology.
Do you really understand (I don’t) the significance of German Idealism; what you are talking about has no genuine empirical justification. There is no actual objective proof that “culture clashes,” lead to a better society. Clearly cultures have interacted but this doesn’t justify mass-migration; i’m pretty sure most Finnish student’s are taught Newtonian calculus but how may Newton’s are there in Finland. As you pointed out the world is global, it is because of this that a research paper produced in Beijing or Oxford can be discussed in Paris and copies sent to Berlin. I fail to see how technological or social advancement requires asylum seekers in this sense requires actual massmovements of people.
Actual Genetic results say Finns aren’t as mixed as other nations in the scandanavian-baltic area. Moreover quite clearly the language is more or less unique compared to the Indo-European languages. You seem very blaise about the English, this is precisely the attitude which annoys Finns:
Let me give you an example. Imagine an island in Polynesia which has 50,000 inhabitants, would you support there decisiion to limit foreign incomers, protecting their culture and language, from a largely overbearing majority who would anglocize their language and perhaps try to convert them to Christianity. No doubt it seems unfair for the to do such a thing. The above was far from a perfect analogy, but i do want to ake it clear that this how many feel. There is a double standard with regard to Finnish lanugage and culture. We are very quick to protect or atleast pretend to protect indigenous cultures. Yet there seems to be some kind of backward logic with regard to Finland. The guilt of imperialism which spawned literally and ideologically the ethnic minority communities in France, UK and US, have created much of the EU rhetoric. This rhetoric is contmainated with colinal guilt of which Finland should feel no guilt. We have to shoulder the so called white man’s burden without the attendent benefits that colonialism brought the above mentioned countries, this certainly doesn’t seem fair to me.
A Few Question’s:
1. What responsibilty do you think Finland bears for Imperialism, specifically the issue of slavery?
2. To what extent are current politics(especially EU law) dictated by post-war UK, France, Germany and Italy all countries mired in the revolt against imperialism and Facism?
3. Could you describe the ‘old [finnish] values’ which you think multiculturalism is a reversion to?
Enrique
July 23, 2009
As you know, Marx, who was greatly influenced by Hegel, used the dialectic approach in his research. I too have had a difficult time understanding Hegel’s view of idealism. However, all these social thinkers as you know do not explain too clearly their ideas. That is why it is difficult to understand what they actually meant.
–There is no actual objective proof that “culture clashes,” lead to a better society.
I did not state that when cultures interact this always leads to a better society. That better society must be built by the dominant culture and minorities that live in the society. I understand that some Finns may be worried about how traditional values are being challenged by multiculturalism and globalization. How is a multiethnic society supposed to function effectively? Does it happen through forced assimilation (integration by perkele) or by embracing other values and rethinking society anew. The Future of Multi-Ethnic Britain (also known as the Parekh Report) asks some of these questions about Britain: “How has the imagined nation stood the test of time? What should be preserved, what jettisoned, what revised or reworked? How can everyone have a recognised place within the larger picture?”
Why do we spend so much time thinking about such matters? The answer lies in our liberal concept of society. In Finland we speak a lot about the importance of equality (tasarvo). If this is one of the pillars of our society, how can we preach this value to ourselves and exclude others by not respecting their culture, values and ways? We end up undermining our own values because their is a double standard.
Having grown up, lived and studied in multicultural societies such as the United States and Argentina, one of the matters that is important by society is an acknowledgement and mutual respect of minorities. In the United States we saw this in the 1950s and 1960s with the civil rights movements. Why go through all this trouble of not accepting/prejudice if that is what will be abolished at the end of the day? To conclude, immigrants do not “impose” upon the society that accepts them but there has to be a rethinking of the general picture of society; one example is education – can we only teach Finnish values without even mentioning those of other cultures?
1. What responsibilty do you think Finland bears for Imperialism, specifically the issue of slavery?
None.
2. To what extent are current politics(especially EU law) dictated by post-war UK, France, Germany and Italy all countries mired in the revolt against imperialism and Facism?
I believe legislation in the EU has helped to undermine these but outside our region it is another story. Imagine all the crops we are using to refine biofuels at the cost of an underdeveloped world that suffers from malnurishment and outright hunger.
3. Could you describe the ‘old [finnish] values’ which you think multiculturalism is a reversion to?
These “old Finnish values” are the myths we have created about our society: it is only monocultural (no room for others), simplistic stereotypes about ourselves (for example, Hämäläinens are slow etc) and others (this immigrant group is lazy/Russians are crooks). Since Finland is my home, the country where I have spent most of my adult life, I still see it as too exclusive with too many stereotypes about other groups still held as “facts.” The aim of these myths is to maintain a strong distinction between “us” and “them.” Finnish society is pretty much exclusive to outsiders. You know this when a Finn states that you “are an exception.”
Janne Brander
August 4, 2009
I am a sinner. We are all sinners. DO NOT THINK ALL FINNS HATE FOREIGNERS. AS AMERICAN MOVIE SHOWED THOSE MOVIE MAKERS WERE REAL RACISTS AGAINST ME EG. THE NAME OF THAT MOVIE IS FOREIGNER. THEY WERE UNABLE TO FOOL ME. I KNEW THAT IT WAS A MOVIE FULL OF HATE.
laffer
August 11, 2009
I have had many lols reading this conversation. So naive at some level and so full tales of eye-opening incidents from immigrants on other.
Heart of the matter is, if I really have to bend it from the barbwire, is that finns are not like other people. Whereas most other population descent from agricultural populations, finns descent from hunter-gatherers, mammoth hunters from siberian steppes, learing how to farm only recently. Thats why finnish mentality differs from whole much of rest of the world. I can always distinguish stereotypical finnish behavior when I see foreign person with finnish heritage on tv, it is so funny to notice that!
Most people, at least instinctively, prefer working, communicating and interacting with other ethnic finns with whom they share same mentality, same way of thinking. Thats what they are used to, they know what to expect, how to interact, and that you can trust fellow finn on a fundamentally different level that you can trust other people. (finns are bit naive, lol)
Thats why foreigner can never become “a finn”, they dont share the same genetic heritage. Neither do their kids. Finns will always know these people are different.
All would be fine, finns would live here in harmony as they have lived here for thousands of years, if there would not be multiculturalism, ideology witch has spread from its birthplace, after-WW2 central europe slowly all over europe, finally in the 1990′s and 2000′s arriving here in finland and influencing our political leaders.
I suppose if you believe that god created peoples and they born as “tabula rasa”, empty table all similar and differences in ways of life are just product of cultural evolution it is easy to convert to support multiculturalism.
You can always try to spread this ideology, you can always try to educate people thinking this way. But you cannot never suppress instinctive feelings people have when dealing with finns and non-finns.
If this writing is eye-opener tho some, good. It is time to wake up and face the reality. World is not such a mushi mushi place where all people are welcomed everywhere. World like that don’t exist anywhere but maybe in your own imaginations. But if you believe in tabula rasa or something similar… nah, I cannot convince you otherwise. There is no arguing with religious beliefs.
Enrique
August 12, 2009
Hi Laffer, thank you for sharing your points of views with us.
–Thats why foreigner can never become “a finn”, they dont share the same genetic heritage. Neither do their kids. Finns will always know these people are different.
That depends on how you define a Finn and if you feel “different” from others. I am certain that this type of attitude has been prevalent in all societies. However, when more people interact from different cultures and get to know each other, they become accustomed to each other. One of the things, in my opinion, that will change in this century is how we define a Finn. It has different meanings during different times. It usually adapts to what the reality is. If you create a society with double standards and morals, the biggest loser will be Finland. In your opinion, those people who do not have a similar “genetic heritage” than you but were born and raised in Finland, do you consider them Finns?
–If this writing is eye-opener tho some, good. It is time to wake up and face the reality. World is not such a mushi mushi place where all people are welcomed everywhere.
Then we should change our society, bash those people’s heads in who do not think or want to be like us. Is that what you are proposing. And when you talk about a “mushi mushi” place, I believe that world is far from being such a place. Read history and look what is going on in many parts of the world.
intternetnetsi
August 14, 2009
“If you create a society with double standards and morals, the biggest loser will be Finland.”
Thats why i oppose multiculturalism. Its all about double standards and morals.
Enrique
August 14, 2009
–Thats why i oppose multiculturalism. Its all about double standards and morals.
Then if you do not want multiculturalism, you will have to kick out all those that make Finland multicultural and, in the process, put an end to globalization. Integration by perkele will not do the job.
Jaakko
August 14, 2009
-Then if you do not want multiculturalism, you will have to kick out all those that make Finland multicultural and, in the process, put an end to globalization. Integration by perkele will not do the job.
Multiculturalism is an ideology and does not mean the same as multicultural society. It’s like welfare state and communism aren’t the same thing. Multiculturalism thinks the majority’s influence in the country should be harshly reduced by a great influx from other and ‘better’ cultures. In Europe this mostly means rapid north African and middle Eastern muslim immigration. So not believing in multiculturalism doesn’t mean every foreign-decent should be kicked out of Finland. Also it wont stop globalization. Globalization means that a globe seems to become smaller, when one can speak to another from Finland to Uganda on the Internet, or when we can travel everywhere in the world in a day or use cars whose components are made in Turkey, Germany and Poland and trink coffee made in Brazil.
Enrique
August 14, 2009
–Multiculturalism thinks the majority’s influence in the country should be harshly reduced by a great influx from other and ‘better’ cultures.
Jaakko, I don´t know why some of you feel that greater equality is synonymous with capitulating to “better” cultures. How does Finnish society work? What is all this talk of equality? Shouldn´t these same types of values apply to every group in society? If you ask me, the present model works more effectively than one that stresses inequality and intolerance.
I have said it before and I will say it again: We like our culture and we hope to inspire others to take part in it. However, thinking that culture is monolithic is wrong – it changes, adapts and serves our interests.
If you think of it, there are many people who would want to be an integral part of this society. I believe one is mistaken if he/she thinks that ALL people who come from other countries do so in order to suck the system dry. There are all types in every culture — even among Finns.
intternetnetsi
August 14, 2009
Multiculturalism isnt about equality, well equal outcomes but thats not equality.
Lets say we have 10 100m runners, equality is that everyone runs with same rules and best wins.
In multiculturalism runners dont start on same line or use same rules and all come in goal in same time. With rules of weakest.
Equality is that everyone is treated with same rules and colour or place of birth is irrelevant.
To me multiculturalism seems to be that you import totally different looking and as much as possible differently believing/behaving people who cause as much as possible clashes to here so you can understand them and be “better people” than “uneducated forest people” who thinks newcomers behaviour is unacceptable…
Enrique
August 15, 2009
–In multiculturalism runners dont start on same line or use same rules and all come in goal in same time. With rules of weakest.
Hi Hannu, could you explain specifically how immigrants get a head start?
– Equality is that everyone is treated with same rules and colour or place of birth is irrelevant.
Isn’t this what our multicultural society aims to achieve? Again you are assessing the matter wrong. It is not adopting “better people” versus “uneducated forest people.” You are missing the point. To start with, if there is on average 20% unemployment among immigrants I would not consider that as an admission that Finland sees these people as “superior.” Isn’t it the other way around: We don’t trust you so run along to Kela and stay as long as you like in Finland but do not threaten me with your presence.
intternetnetsi
August 15, 2009
Of course i can, affirmitave action what is reality on some places already.
Again that average, few days ago there was news about immigrant childrens starting school.
Girl born in here with atleast decent finnish skills started S2 (finnish as second language), people said she spoke good finnish. Her father cant read or write and had no education, mother had only basic education. That after 12 years in finland.
I really hope that girl get good education and work, im bit sceptic since parents are from palestine/jemen so im afraid that she is married willingly or not to someone.
Is it my problem that they are uneducated and cant get work? Is it my problem that about 80 to 90% somalis coming by “family reunion” arent able to write or read?
Can you please read and understand what i have written?
Enrique
August 15, 2009
–Is it my problem that they are uneducated and cant get work? Is it my problem that about 80 to 90% somalis coming by “family reunion” arent able to write or read?
That is the wonderful thing about living in another country: you learn and can acquire new skills. You speak as if all Muslims were illiterate, which is not true. If you think of it, they are — if they are immigrants — ambitious. As refugees they have little choice but to leave. That is how a new generation of immigrants are born.
Hannu, isn’t there a lot of pressure placed on the girl since you are holding your breath about her future? If you know this, don’t other parents at her school know what you said? Do you think that they are telling their children about her parents’ background?
In Los Angeles we have a lot of Latinos. Some have very little schooling and don’t even speak English. They still work and forge a future — at least a better one than in their home countries — in California.
And, to give you an example a little closer to home, my maternal great grandfather was from southern Italy. It is highly likely that he did not know how to read or write when he migrated to Argentina in the 1890s. Even so, a number of his daughters became teachers; they had a better life than in Italy because Argentina had offered them such an opportunity. So, I totally disagree with you that children are a rubber stamp of their parents. Parents want to see their children progress in society as well. If you are an immigrant you want a better life and if you are a refugee you want the same thing, even though your motives for leaving your home country are different.
intternetnetsi
August 15, 2009
“You speak as if all Muslims were illiterate, which is not true. ”
I speak what i have pointed out multiple times already in multiple threads. If you are illiterate/uneducated your changes to get job is slim. You refuse to understand that and use that 20% as proof of somekind of racism.
And again you are talking 1890s when there were lot of jobs for illitiretate and uneducated people, times have changed since then.
And they arent refugees, they are asylym shoppers mostly who only come for wellfare.
2008 there was 4035 applications and 89 granted as refugee. There is delay in that but you see how many are really refugees.
Enrique
August 16, 2009
–And again you are talking 1890s when there were lot of jobs for illitiretate and uneducated people, times have changed since then.
True, but one thing as not changed: opportunities to better one’s life. No matter how times have changed, one guiding spirit is to find happiness and prosperity.
intternetnetsi
August 16, 2009
“True, but one thing as not changed: opportunities to better one’s life. No matter how times have changed, one guiding spirit is to find happiness and prosperity.”
Payer has changed, you are probably OK with paying “oppoturnities” to 3 billion people who would like to have it. Im not.
Enrique
August 18, 2009
–Payer has changed, you are probably OK with paying “oppoturnities” to 3 billion people who would like to have it. Im not.
Hannu, this is ridiculous. Why don’t you ask the Finnish government to close its borders? That will keep out the billions of Muslims trying feverishly to get into this country.
intternetnetsi
August 18, 2009
Ridiculous? No need to close borders, just end discomoney and kick out people faster and more efficiently.
Enrique
August 18, 2009
–Ridiculous? No need to close borders, just end discomoney and kick out people faster and more efficiently.
Hanny, when will Finland become a dictatorship? When will it flush down the toilet its values that you learned at school?
intternetnetsi
August 18, 2009
What you mean about dictatorship? And one main thing i learned in school and in life that do not pander scammers.
alien
August 18, 2009
Enrique:
I understand your intention of making humans out of robots, but my friend I have to agree with Finns in here. What values are you talking about? What school? I have studied 10 years in that mental hospital and I heard not a word about dignity or values. Why do u insist to give them a greatness which is beyond their caliber? They are happy with what they are. Value is for people that care more than eating sleeping and fucking. So to answer your question I should say the domain of the values they learn in the school is no further than how to eat their sosage with potatoes. That is it. So intternetsi is right, dont pander dumbheads as I did not. I said f.. you and your whole nation and showed them a finger.
Michaelangelo
August 24, 2009
(I wrote it also somewhere else, I will write also here my thoughts)
Hi, I am Greek and now a while ago I am in Finland. (came here as a student 2005-2006 make practice at a hospital and then coming all the time, a little every while)
I have a Finnish fiance and soon will be married and on January we’ll have our baby.
Her family, friends and relatives, they loved me from the first time they saw me, cause they saw how much I loved their daughter! They did not care I was no Finnish, they do not see into these things!
They were flying over the moon that later we told them we were engaged and after that that we were gonna have a baby!!!
When I am reading all these about racism in Finland, I am terrible sorry, but I am just laughing! You see, I was never victim of racism here and did not see Finnish people are racists with any country! I have the same treatmen like all the Finnish! (although to have the Finnish first and then me, I would still find it fair).
The “real racists” in Finland, are the immigrants and Finnish goverment to Finnish people. I will tell you exactly what I mean.
Finland, is really a country they will never want to be racists. That is why, they give lot of money to immigrants they just come in Finland (especially 3rd World African Countries). They also, renamed the word CHRISTMAS at school, because they have immigrant students! (how stupid! leave in Finland have to learn their culture and accept it!).
A Finnish uneducated unemployement is taking about 400euros/month, the moment that an African family is taking 3000euros/month from the goverment. Money that Finnish pay taxes for.
Finnish are also, like to take care the environment and the nature, so they put their rabbish, in different places about e.g. plastic, bio etc.
Unfortunatelly, these immigrants, not only they do NOT RESPECT what they get from the country that feeds them, their children and their families, but also, just few of the things that Finnish CHANGED from FEAR the last years.
1. Immigrants, lots of them, of course they accepted the Finnish money goverment gave them, so they do NOT WANT to go to WORK! They just stay at home and accept the goverment’s (Finnish) FREE money!
So, they just take money and pay no taxes to Finland!
The percentage author gave, is more from that!
2. They do not want to change themselfs and take care of the environment like Finnish and say they do not have to (bu Finnish have to give them money to stay there). So, they just throw rubbish even on the roads and of course they do not care about plastics, bio, etc.
3. They make lot of CRIMES! Most of the RAPES are happening from immigrants, especially Africans! (statistics, not about Finland but generally, it is real, says that 1/4 African raped at least once in his life!).
Immigrants and especially from African have no respect for the country they live. They say they hate her, but they are not leaving cause of the FREE money!
Not only Finland is not racist to African people, but they try to protect even the criminals! Once an African raped a Finnish, and they said on news it was a Spanish, a Greek or an Italian! Finally it was discovered it was African.
Someone Finnish, that wrote an article, not racist but about the money also Finnish should take (and not only immigrants, Finnish should normally take more, it is their country and they pay for it!!!)and also about crimes and for a woman was gang-raped by mongols and then cut her thing (she no longer has normal life these criminals were out of jail aftr three years and Finland tried to put them again into normal life). That Finnish guy now, they want to put him in jail for 4,5years!!! (more than these rapists that ruined the woman’s life).
You saw the reasons, Finnish are AFRAID (and not racist) of 3rd World Countries immigrants!
And now, about the language that the author said is an excuse, buddy, DO YOU KNOW THEY TAKE MONEY TO HAVE FINNISH LANGUAGE COURSES? They just are so lazy to do even that! Of course a language is important in a counry to work!!! How can you work in a shop, a hospital etc. to talk with others if you do not know the language? IMPOSSIBLE! That is why Finnish goverment is even paying immigrants to have these lessons! But of course later they want you to work and pay the taxes like everyone! Fair enough? Well, most immigrants wants just to be LAZY and have FREE money!
I am not Finnish and I fairly say, that someone is leaving here and call them racists, should me shamed! It is fact that if they would not like, they would LEAVE! They are just haters and lazy most of them! Lot of the people are writting here and are immigrants in Finland, is because they have free time cause they have the FREE money!
Finnish are hard-workers and is normal not to like pay for others and give the money they work, so the others just stay home and being lazy!
I do not want to say that every immigrant is bad or whatever. But what I said generally the situation I see in Finland. And cause I am not Finnish, i can be fair enough!
I love Finland and Finnish people, cause they are kind, nice and special people! That is why I can not accept all these kind of lies! If everyone was good, would feel same as I feel and have also same treatment!
Enrique
August 24, 2009
Hi Michaelangelo, welcome to Migrant Tales and for sharing your ideas with us.
I don’t buy everything you say but you have every right to be of a different opinion. When you speak of “Third World immigrants,” do you mean that those who look like/are African immigrants are the most “ungrateful?” Why do you think you have adapted better than them? Is it because you are European?
Michaelangelo
August 24, 2009
When I say about 3rd World Country, sorry if you got the wrong meaning,I mean from a non advanced country (that may also have big criminal percentage)
I said my opinion, because I just see the exactly oppossite here and many at the writings are just haters! It is not fair, either nice. First of all it should be respect!
I could say that in Finland have more the “Foreign-Fear” cause of what is happening. I remembered Finnish were much better even before 5years!!! But, everyone wants to be nice in Finland and live fair, have nice life!
Of course is not every Finnish good (or every African immigrant bad), but the percentage of the not respected people from non advanced countries (like Africa, I am not saying 3rd World Countries again for not having misunderstandings) is really big!(comparing to other countries)
Of course is not the European or African, but the way people grow up! In Africa that conditions are not good, is different than in here.
In Finland, by taking people from these countries, they even risk the lifes of their own people (for these crimes cause of the percentage of criminals) by taking these immigrants and I believe, this should be respected!
Enrique
August 25, 2009
–I said my opinion, because I just see the exactly oppossite here and many at the writings are just haters!
Isn’t expressing one opinions a positive matter? Isn’t it the way that democratic societies work? I disagree with you, Michaelangelo, I believe the majority of those that live in Finland remain and have a bond to this country. The conflict and problems may be attributable to frustration for not being able to seek the Finnish dream.
I personally wish that more immigrants/refugees would raise their voices against racism and inequality. As long as you let others speak for you, change will be slow.
Michaelangelo
August 25, 2009
And why Enrique immigrants should raise their voice the moment that they have no reason?
Just to be rebels? Where is the respect?
Especially when, immigrants they should not wait the FREE money but go to work!
If someone Enrique should raise voices in Finland, are the Finnish people, cause Finland is racist only to them! They work hard and pay for the immigrants here although, the immigrants should pay from their work, their taxes to Finland!
When these things are happening, like they should be and you see REAL racism some do not want to see some kind of rebelion, yes then, in real racism and not rebelion, immigrants fairly should raise (but with respect for the country they live) their voices!
Don’t forget that, as I said, I am not Finnish leaving in Finland and did not have any bad treatment! I fully agreed their culture and did not just come for FREE money!
Enrique
August 26, 2009
Hi Michaelangelo, why shouldn’t immigrants or any member of society raise their voices? Respect does not mean being quiet. It means being able to air your opinions; it is a two-way street. We take on board people’s ideas and answer by giving our point of view.
I am happy that you have not received any bad treatment in Finland. If you accuse some immigrants for coming to Finland for a “free ride,” you should also look at the Finns and ask how many are taking advantage of the system. Since immigrants amount to about 2% of the population, I am certain you will find many more cases of Finns abusing the system.
Michaelangelo
August 26, 2009
Hi Enrique,
I am sorry, but lot of immigrant families are doing that.
Till know, I only know hard-working Finns. I am sure that if you check statistics, foreigners are much more than 100.000 in all Finland, so this 2% is not so much.
As I said, Finnish have much more right raise their voices! It is the country they created for themselfs and when is someone taking advantage of that it is not nice! The lazy immigrant it is a fact it is happening in Finland!
So, you believe that Finland is not giving good money to foreigners? Or what is racist in Finland with Finnish?
I already said some things that it was just racist to Finns and not to immigrants. I will say some more.
I said about the word Christmas party if you remember. Now let’s go to the work places. Muslims, have to pray many times per day. So, they just stop their work and pray for half an hour (many are also use it as excuse and be there much more than a normal pray). Just imagine a nurse, stop taking care of a patient when he needs her and leave from the room to go to pray! And of course they do not accept to stay more at work because that half hour was NOT work! Finland stupidly accept it so, they would just NOT look racists!
Many immigrant children, are starting school after 10 with result to assault youn Finnish students. The terrified parents are taking their children to safer school even far away from the place they live! So, now you see many schools with foreigners the biggest %!
Finnish people re NOT racists. They have something I would call “FOREIGN-FEAR”, that it was developed the last years! You see, the many crimes (usually rapes) that most of them are from the small % of foreigners, made them scared! Is it not logical?
Finnish should have EVERY right raise their voices, because they see, they are nor only sacrificing their country, their ethics (even religion ethics) and their money by having foreigners, but also their own people!
So, who you has the right raise his voice and who you think should start being better? Every foreigner have a good behaviour and is hard-working, will have no problems in Finland and can earn Finnish people trust!
If I would not like Finland and Finnish people, I would just leave and not write things are not true, in a forum!
Michaelangelo
August 26, 2009
Sorry for mistakes. They became cause I was in a hurry!
Enrique
August 27, 2009
–As I said, Finnish have much more right raise their voices! It is the country they created for themselfs and when is someone taking advantage of that it is not nice!
Then if Finns have “more” rights than others to raise their voice, there is no such thing as equality (tasa arvo) as an ideal in our society. What kind of a society do you think we live in when some have more rights than others? Even though differences exist they are absorbed by our social welfare system and values.
–I said about the word Christmas party if you remember. Now let’s go to the work places. Muslims, have to pray many times per day. So, they just stop their work and pray for half an hour (many are also use it as excuse and be there much more than a normal pray).
Have you actually been at a job where people do this?
–Finnish should have EVERY right raise their voices, because they see, they are nor only sacrificing their country, their ethics (even religion ethics) and their money by having foreigners, but also their own people!
You can also see this in the following light: Immigrants are an asset to this country. They will bring (like any matter) positive and negative things. Even so, future Olympic stars, sportsmen, innovations will be made by Finland’s new inhabitants. There presence will strengthen our values — or expose them in a dubious light. You have to look at the present laws passed by FINNS to comprehend what kind of a society we are becoming. The Constitution and Equality Law clearly state a totally different society which you are talking about. These laws talk about equal respect and the right to be who you are.
Michaelangelo
August 27, 2009
Enrique said: “Then if Finns have “more” rights than others to raise their voice, there is no such thing as equality (tasa arvo) as an ideal in our society. What kind of a society do you think we live in when some have more rights than others? Even though differences exist they are absorbed by our social welfare system and values.”
See again what I am saying. I said they have every right because many immigrants are taking advantage of the good social care! And also about the criminal rate! That is why they have every right! And also immigrants, is not happening any bad to them to raise voices! Rebelions always had reasons, I see no reasons here!
Enrique said: “Have you actually been at a job where people do this?”
If I would not see it, we would not discuss it right now! It is familiar in Finland, I am surprised you do not know it!
Enrique said “You can also see this in the following light: Immigrants are an asset to this country. They will bring (like any matter) positive and negative things. Even so, future Olympic stars, sportsmen, innovations will be made by Finland’s new inhabitants. There presence will strengthen our values — or expose them in a dubious light. You have to look at the present laws passed by FINNS to comprehend what kind of a society we are becoming. The Constitution and Equality Law clearly state a totally different society which you are talking about. These laws talk about equal respect and the right to be who you are.”
Who cares about future stars at sports when much more important things are happening? Personally, I would not like someone non-original represent me! But anyway, I would not sacrifice my people for future sport stars! It is not positive this, but for sure the crime % is a big negative!
Yes, people here are equal! And the mistake is they take good care of the immigrants, although they shoud be sent back the criminals after panishment, the lazy and they who do not accept the culture! Fair enough I think to adopt, that way of living!
And anyway, is someone does not like Finland, why is he not leaving? Sorry, but I just see these things as excuses! Whoever does not like, he’s not slave(!!!), he can leave anytime he wants! I am here because I like it, if I do not, I just leave! That’s it! What is the point make anti-Finnish propaganda and say lies?
Enrique
August 27, 2009
–I would not like someone non-original represent me! But anyway, I would not sacrifice my people for future sport stars!
Than, Michaelangelo, what are you and I doing in this country? We should leave it in order to not upset the balance of things. Could you tell me how they treat immigrants in Greece? Would you consider your country and example for other EU nations to emulate?
–If I would not see it, we would not discuss it right now! It is familiar in Finland, I am surprised you do not know it!
I don´t know how general this is. People at my work (Lutherans) do not pray at a certain time. Anyway, we live in a secular society. I think you might be exaggerating the extent of this practice.
–And anyway, is someone does not like Finland, why is he not leaving? Sorry, but I just see these things as excuses!
I respect your thoughts but I consider them very anti-immigrant. Sometimes people cannot leave in a jiffy like you suggest.
Michaelangelo
August 27, 2009
-
“Than, Michaelangelo, what are you and I doing in this country? We should leave it in order to not upset the balance of things. Could you tell me how they treat immigrants in Greece? Would you consider your country and example for other EU nations to emulate?”
I meant, non-original at sports! What am I doing? Lving here, with the same way the live and respect them and their country!
In Greece? Before coming Albanians quite good. After Albanians came, just them have not so good treatment, but it is because also of the many crimes (murders, rapes, stealing) and also because even if the road if they are lot of them, they do not have good behavior even to couples. With other nations (Pakistans, Russians, Irak, Jipses etc.) we have no problem. But still, Finland is much better than that and even give you money! That is why I see so much GREED from immigrants?
-”I don´t know how general this is. People at my work (Lutherans) do not pray at a certain time. Anyway, we live in a secular society. I think you might be exaggerating the extent of this practice.”
I did not say about Lutherans, usually immigrants are not. Muslims (i do not have anything against) they do!
-”I respect your thoughts but I consider them very anti-immigrant. Sometimes people cannot leave in a jiffy like you suggest.”
My thoughts are absolutely fair and not anit-immigrant! These things you say are anti-Finnish and show no respect to the country you live!
Do not forget I am a foreigners too! Our difference, I am HONEST!
I suggestes to live FAIR like HUMANS and not like lazy-dogs! Work and be nice! (and not crimes).
And with respect about the culture and the things they have here! (e.g. they want to take care of the environment, YOU have to do it, too!)
Fair enough?
Enrique
August 27, 2009
–In Greece? Before coming Albanians quite good. After Albanians came, just them have not so good treatment, but it is because also of the many crimes (murders, rapes, stealing) and also because even if the road if they are lot of them, they do not have good behavior even to couples. With other nations (Pakistans, Russians, Irak, Jipses etc.) we have no problem. But still, Finland is much better than that and even give you money! That is why I see so much GREED from immigrants?
Michaelangelo, if you are sincere you would acknowledge that Greece has a huge issue with Muslims. This is historic (Ottoman Empire/Turkey). The hatred that exists between Greece and Turkey does not set both of your countries as very understanding. There was also the problem with Macedonia, remember? In EU reports, Greece does not appear as a very tolerant country towards immigrants. As I mentioned, I respect your opinions even though I disagree with them. You may be looking at Finland through the Greek reality.
–My thoughts are absolutely fair and not anit-immigrant! These things you say are anti-Finnish and show no respect to the country you live!
Isn’t respect a two-way street? In the United States, immigrants and especially black in the past were seen as too “dumb” to enjoy civil liberties. Look at the situation today. If nobody would have raised a voice, matters would have been like in the 1950s, when blacks and whites used different bathrooms.
Johan
August 27, 2009
Hey, I have been reading your comments and I would like to express my opinion as well. I’m a Finnish student currently studying in the UK so I have the opportunity to compare the attitudes of the native population towards immigrants or foreigners in the two respective countries. When I first arrived in the UK I quickly came to realize how integrated foreigners in the UK actually are. Non-english people occupy almost all professions and they are generally treated equally. Immigration in the UK has a long history and I haven’t noticed a distinction between ‘us’ and ‘them’ in British society as everyone is more or less seen as British. Finland is a long way from this. The truth is that Finland is a rather xenophobic country in comparison to the UK. Foreigners in Finland are mostly seen in a negative light: instead of being an asset they are seen as a threat. Finns, through difficulty and hardship, have a created this welfare society perfect for Finns ONLY. Foreigners do not fit into the picture. Decades of virtual isolation has left a mark on Finnish mentality which is consequently very narrow-minded. I think it’s going to take years (at least) for this attitude to finally change. In the mean time foreigners in Finland just need to endure the present situation. I have heard that it wasn’t easy for immigrants when large-scale immigration to the UK began in the 1960s, when ‘Pakis’ and others were heavily discriminated against. I have not heard anyone complain about racism in the UK, though I twice have heard an english man yelling racial abuses at a dark skinned person on the street. I’m sure that these are just isolated incidents and do not reflect the opinion of the majority of the English. I’m also sure that these kind of incidents of racial abuse are much more common in Finland. The truth is: Finland needs foreigners. In the upcoming years, the crucial replacement of the ageing Finnish population with immigrant workers will surely ‘force’ Finns to change their xenophobic attitudes. I’m very proud of my country. Finland has risen from a poor, miserable country to one of wealthiest in the world, a transformation that few countries in similar circumstances have been able to match. However, there is still a major defect: discrimination remains a thorn in the side of Finnish society
alien
August 27, 2009
Enrique: thank you for your patience and the time you spend to shed some light on the issue. Unfortunately in my opinion social science among Finns and their fans is not much developed. I have an explanation for that. For Finns it is obvious because the path they have had in the past and their too scared national character simply believes that “kill to live”. Or “step on others to go forward”. Any thing less than that you are accused that you are dumb, middle-eastern, terrorist and so on.
They mistakenly or wickedly call it pragmatism! “Our interest said cooperate with german and when conqured by russians then kill them.” Even today; Nokia is an example. They have sold the technology of monitoring of mobile phones and data communications to Iranian regime so they can trace the dissidents! The result is more killing for Iranian people and some money for Nokia. When it come to other non-Finns right wings, they mostly come from the less-developed part of the Europe. Their compressed complexes make them think that they are European and become all of a sudden against Moslems or Africans. I myself reject Islam 100% as a negative thing. but there is a difference between unti-islam and unti-moslems! In the earlier comes an Ideology which should be open to rejection. In latter comes human being. Woman, children, old people and human in one world. These people are simply too narrow minded to see that or they simply need some one to nag on them. We should remember that in addition to Finland the super nationalistic people coming mostly from the eastern European countries, or less developed part of Europe. They think that immigrants other than European immigrants, are lazy, dumb, non-educated. They dont even bother to check the statistic. As an example when I was working in Nokia between 99-2003, there was about 150 Iranian working only for Nokia in Finland. Considering the number of the Iranian living in Finland in 2000 (~1500), it means about 10% only working for Nokia. While I new some working in Universities, physicians and other jobs. So the theory of lazyness is just a tool to keep peoples mouth shut and officialze racism. “If u are not born here and have the same color, u have no right to comment and raise your voice”!!!
Another thing which is coming among all Finishized post is the lack of “Respect”!!! They are all complaining that we need respect. Well as far as I know, if you dont respect others you should not expect people to respect you!!!
Enrique
August 28, 2009
Hi Johan, welcome to Migrant Tales and thank you for your comment. Your comment pretty much does away with the notion that the United Kingdom is a failed multicultural society. To be frank with you, I always felt that the country’s diverse population was NORMAL whereas in Finland we are still taking our first steps in this respect. I agree totally with you about Finland but I do believe that there are many people — as yourself — who would like to see things different in this country. Finland’s reticent stance against immigrants has a lot to do with history and the fact that our education has not prepared us for such a reality. Even so, I believe matters will change in this respect.
Enrique
August 28, 2009
Hi alien, thank you for your many comments, which show the suffering side of living in this country. I know some friends for many years who feel as frustrated like you about living in Finland. I would be the last person to not acknowledge your pain. There is the pain of leaving a country because of political reasons and then finding the same things in a different form (incomprehension, suspicion, racism, stereotyping etc) in your new home. When I moved to this country in 1978, it was a hundred times worse than today. There weren’t even laws that protected immigrants, which were called “aliens,” so there was a lot of abuse and exploitation. The only contact — unfortunately — that some Finns had of blacks was through US television series such as Archie Bunker. Today we have laws that protect immigrants/minorities and a lot of effort by the government to train and school people who move to this country. There is one big problem, however: High unemployment, which could be seen as another form of discrimination and exclusion.
I am happy that you found a new home in Sweden.
alien
August 28, 2009
Enrique: in my opinion you can make a great politician as you are already a great social science scholar. You have all the elements that a politician should have such as belief in something, courage, patience, social and philosophical insight and hope. That is a shame that country like Finland can not use you or many like you. I agree with Finns that most of the immigrants come to Finland are not so ready to make benefits for the country in short term, but among us there are individuals that have knowledge, ability, and charisma much more than original inhabitants. A country like Sweden have found that correctly, they will harvest the result within one or two decades as they have seen a portion of that. For Finland however, I hope that is not too late!
Enrique
August 28, 2009
Thank you very much for the kudos, alien. I am very happy that you can take part in our blog and share your experiences in Finland. I would not, however, be as pessimistic as you. We can change things in this country. We have to start with a first step, no?
alien
August 28, 2009
Johan:
That was a nice post from you. Good job. I believe that people like you are beneficial for a society who wants to live in peace and harmony. Well done!
Michaelangelo
August 28, 2009
Enrique,
If you would know how things are in Greece and not just from the mistaken wikipedia. you would know that Greece, does not have anymore problems with Turkey or any muslims! You are many decades behind! Most % in Greece and Turkey, have even sympathy between them! In towns of Greece, like Thraki, they even live more Turkish than Greeks! (Ckeck it!!!) Still, no problems. Also, we have many muslims (little % in Greeks, big enough at foreigners) but still again, they have same respect as every other people. Of course all these from the biggest % of Greeks. With albanians, is another couple of fish, of no respect to Greece and we also have, like here, more “foreign-fear” (xenophobia), than racism.
For sure, I am not seeing things like in Greek reality, but I am seeing things in “FOUR DIMENSIONS”, what is really happen and fairly!
Now about the raising of the voice you are talking. I aggree with that thing, when racist things really exists and not for making a “fake” rebellion! Why, like many foreigners I know in Finland, Finnish were always good with them?
So, you have to see, if the mistake, is not just in the Finnish people, but also on the other side, of the immigrants!
Immigrants are not perfect here to talk about raising voices, cause if they were good, noone would say anything about racism right now. Not that it really exists, it is not difficult prove the oppossite. Xenophobia is something different.
But yet, you did not answer me, in serious questions.
What do you believe about big % of foreigners they just staying here and take the FREE money, without wanting to work?
What do you think about foreigners, that they do not want to adopt Finnish culture and change their habits and take care of the environment, like finnish want to do? (like Finnish are doing with rubbish for papers/bio/etc.)
What do you think about the crimes and rapes are happening from foreigners? (and are many times more than Finnish, although foreigners are much less)
And many other things I asked you and are happening in Finland (I can not write them again, I already have a big post).
So, who really has to raise voices?
You raise voices, when you are right and fair and the others are not with you. When none of these is happening and also you are not right and fair, what is the reason?
First of all, if you want respect, you first have to give “RESPECT”!!! And believe me, nothing will b bad for you in Finland, like they are not for me!
You see things with you “own” reality and not with how they really are. You are judging do to your own reality and also judging people like that. (same with what you did with me)
You know, the real PROBLEM is that you do not see (maybe not by purpose) how things really are. You are just seeing things, in ONE DIMENSION. You have to see how things are really are, without your “own” reallity. You have to see things in “FOUR DIMENSIONS”, see and accept the REALITY! And also if needed, try to think how the others are thinking and why!
Enrique
August 28, 2009
Michaelangelo, I did not get my information on Greece from Wikipedia. I visited your country twice as a child in the late 1960s and have read a little on the history of the Ottoman Empire. By the way there is a report by the EU that shows that xenophobia is a big problem in Greece. This is what it says at the beginning:
My purpose is not to associate you with the report but to show you that even though there are social problems caused by racism, we can also push them to the side and make believe that they do not exist. Certainly the dominant culture wants to do this.
–What do you believe about big % of foreigners they just staying here and take the FREE money, without wanting to work?
Do you really believe this? If there are overall about 20% unemployment among foreigners in Finland, the majority of them are scraping along. They are working, paying taxes and contributing to this society.
–You know, the real PROBLEM is that you do not see (maybe not by purpose) how things really are.
Do you really think so? Probably the difference is our backgrounds. You come from a country that has had problems with Muslims/Turks and I grew up in one where blacks won civil rights (I was born in a country called Argentina that was made up of immigrants). So, when you speak about immigrants being lazy, aren’t you throwing mud at yourself and all the rest of us who want to make a living in this country?
Michaelangelo
August 29, 2009
Probably you are not in Finland for believing these!
Even many immigrants in Finland that are working said that, their people make them feel “ashamed”! Because they want to have a normal life and the others make them not havong a good fame!
I saw also you are trying to AVOID ANSWER my questions. Why do you just not try being FAIR?
Why do you change my talking?
I did not say every immigrant is lazy. I said that most of immigrants are getting help in Finland, are taking advantage of the good system and are becoming lazy!
-Enrique said: “Do you really think so? Probably the difference is our backgrounds. You come from a country that has had problems with Muslims/Turks and I grew up in one where blacks won civil rights (I was born in a country called Argentina that was made up of immigrants). So, when you speak about immigrants being lazy, aren’t you throwing mud at yourself and all the rest of us who want to make a living in this country?”
By purpose or not, I do not know, again you are trying lying things! I do not know what you think was the situation on 60′s (!!!), but Greece does not have any problem with Turkish and muslims, and if you read, I will write it again, there are many towns in Greece, Turks are MORE than Greeks without any problem!!!! WHERE is the problem, which you are trying to guess as my backround??? Guessing is equal to lie when we are not sure!
I should be on your side, cause I AM a FOREIGNER here. But when I see HATE and no RESPECT from some people, to the country and the people they owe their life, sorry but I can not join you!!!
You see, that does not make me be no fair to other people.
About our difference. TRUE! Our backrounds are different. But because, I am a studied person, having experience from CULTURES (care about REALITY and not my country’s views only and does not matter where I borned) outside my country, I do not like to say things I do not know for other people (to show that I am right) and most of all, I want to see REALITY, things in FOUR DIMENSIONS, be HONEST and have a FAIR for ALL oppininion!
Enrique
August 30, 2009
Hi Micaelangelo, I believe I answered your questions fair and square.
–Even many immigrants in Finland that are working said that, their people make them feel “ashamed”!
I think your statement is highly revealing because it shows how maladapted some immigrants are in Finland. The stigma and label of being a “foreigner” in this society may be so strong that some attempt to escape it by pushing other immigrants down in the social totem pole. In every group there are all types. Probably because I tend to see people more as infidividuals, I do not feel “ashamed” by one particular group.
–I did not say every immigrant is lazy.
But you gave the impression that immigrants in Finland use the system. Possibly you should use a word like “some immigrants” instead of “immigrants.”
–By purpose or not, I do not know, again you are trying lying things!
Are you accusing me of lying? The information that I gave is my opinion backed by a European Union report. Are you saying that the report I sent you is lying and/or exaggerating things in Greece? If you think so, you should write to the EU and tell them to stop spreading lies about your country. However, I would rely on the report more than on your personal observations.
–I should be on your side, cause I AM a FOREIGNER here.
Why should you? You are a free person to think the way you wish. Your concept of respect is paternalistic and antiquated. Possibly it shows why there are so many problems with minorities in Greece as the report states. Respect, in my opinion, is a two-way street. Respect is earned on both sides. Taking into account that we lived in a globalized world you are speaking here of things as “blood and folk” really surprises me. It shows why ethnic problems are a problem in Europe.
–I am a studied person, having experience from CULTURES (care about REALITY and not my country’s views only and does not matter where I borned) outside my country
This shows that even if you travel, live and interact with many cultures, it does not mean that you will also become more understanding of them. I understand that adaption (assimilation) is important for you. That is your choice but you cannot apply it to everyone. Moreover, the Constitution definitely states that we take into account other minorities (multiculturalism) as opposed to assimilation.
Michaelangelo
August 30, 2009
I think trying the world better and more fair, is not my strong point.
I tried show you, how the other side also is thinking and that you are not right 100% saying all these. Before you do something, you should be right and have proofs. Also accept the other’s proofs.
About Greece, these were things 50years ago maybe. I do not think European Union makes a report with things happened 50years ago, the moment that Greece was helping Turkey being in European Union!
Forget that I am Greek and answer me, as a foreigner in Finland, equal as you!
I respect every opinion, as I said, but only when is REAL and FAIR! If you see things from 1-dimension and reality has 4-dimensions (I am not sure if you got the point what I meant), then you are not honest and speaking with truth.
Understanding cultures, depends the person how much WANT to understand them!
That shows, that is someone wants to understand, he can try and do it! If someone’s head is STUCK, he will not accept it! ADOPTING CULTURE, is something you HAVE to do if you are in a foreign country. You have to be EQUAL to them and play with their RULLES! They do not have to accept you, do whatever you want in their country (e.g. if you do not like take care of their enviroment and nature) I think is FAIR enough.
Enrique
August 30, 2009
–I tried show you, how the other side also is thinking and that you are not right 100% saying all these.
Thank you for pointing this out.
–About Greece, these were things 50years ago maybe.
The EU report was done a few years ago not 50 years ago.
–I respect every opinion, as I said, but only when is REAL and FAIR.
But I showed you a EU report. You have given me your personal observation.
I think it would be unfair of you to accuse me of not trying to understand cultures. In order for me to survive in my life, it has been one of the first key things I have learned to do.
–You have to be EQUAL to them and play with their RULLES!
I do not understand your point. Are you stating that we consider ourselves better than Finns? If your answer is in the affirmative, you have misunderstood this blog. Moreover, why do you think it is showing “lack of respect” when one is debating a sensitive issue like racism or adaption of immigrants?
Michaelangelo
August 31, 2009
I know where I was leaving and do not need report. Maybe the report was even about past, but surely, far from the truth! The report you had also was for a nation, not for me! How can you judge me?
My point at the word equal meant, equal and SAME at everything! Like adopting cultures! You have to if you want to leave somewhere else! (at least the outside cultures).
It is logical to be suspicious when you see someone foreigner (generally different), but it is not difficult earn their trust.
Racism is everywhere. Whatever will happen you can not change it. But generally their is not such thing in Finland from more than 99% of Finnish! (villages from old people is different). Maybe some more are suspicious. But till that! By saying, raise voices, even without reason, just makes things worse.
You said you work in NOKIA. Do you think if they were racist, would they take you there even if you would be educated? Even if you were the best?
But when you see, now on, some have no respect, it is logical people be more suspicious! It is xenophobia (foreign-fear) and it comes out for some reason. You are leaving here, so, you should try understand it.
Enrique
September 1, 2009
Michaelangelo, I think I made it clear that I am not associating you with the EU report on Greece.
–You said you work in NOKIA. Do you think if they were racist, would they take you there even if you would be educated? Even if you were the best?
I don´t work for Nokia. You must be thinking of Tony. However, I did not say that ALL Finns are racist. There are many good people in Finland who are not guided by such social hangups.
Why do you think this blog exists? What is its purpose? My humble aim is to only bring forth topics that the mainstream media and society does not like to touch. These are views from a person who is an outsider but an insider as well of this culture.
I disagree with your point of view but I can understand it taking into account your situation in Finland.
Michaelangelo
September 1, 2009
Yeah, maybe about NOKIA was confused with that Tony.
Of course the fact is that not most Finnish can be racist or else we could not be here right now. The theme is, if it is really racism with the way some think.
We are both foreigners (by saying both, do not mean just you but every foregner). So, that means, we are both different from Finnish and both have same “first look” from them.
If I have a better treatment from them or a worse, it can mean two things:
1. I am just lucky and just find only good people. Something it is not possible if you are right, cause possibilities would be to find many not good.
2. You are making some mistakes with them. That does not make you for sure bad, but you have to find out what is the mistake. What you are making wrong they do not like you. Maybe, it is not their mistake, but yours. Something you have to look for, before saying someone racist.
Anyway, that is just my point of view, but it is not changing that I am trying to be neutral and fair.
Enrique
September 1, 2009
Hi Michaelangelo, racism and discrimination works in different ways in different countries. It has it unique characteristics in Finland. Even so, the impact of such a social ill is the same: to exclude due to race (or ethnic difference). I cannot say whether the majority or minority of the Finns are racists because I have not seen any research that would quantify such a claim. But it is a problem in this country and probably has its greater impact on those who are ethnically different from the dominant culture.
I have lived in Finland most of my life but grew up elsewhere. My Finnish roots come from my mother’s side. Therefore, I do not consider myself a “foreigner.”
Everyone tries to find the best way to adapt to this society. Some may take your path while others may take a different one. Consider yourself lucky that at least you have found one path and are not excluded and unemployed.
Michaelangelo
September 2, 2009
Enrique, I just follow their rulles! It is Finland after all all! Not Greece! Things are different and if someone has to change and be like the other, is me to become like them and not hey like me!
I saw that Finland even wants to take out the religion theatres they make at school cause from other religions they raised their voices for that! Do you find that logical? Did any country do anything like that for the Finnish their? Personally I find it stupid and no respect from these foreigners. It is even greed!
I just think that, if you are a foreigner somewhere, you have to accept their way of life! And become like them. Of course not change your personality, but the way of life can affect the others! Their rulles at their home. And one day will be also your home
taksap
September 6, 2009
Aijajaja, Michealangelo you are right, the old saying “when you go to rome do as the romans do”, so when i go to rome and the romans are at war ,i go and buy a gun and open fire on them. If someone don`t like me, it is their own headache. You smile at me i smile back at you, you give me the devil´s look, you sure will recieve the same look from me. The Earth was made for broad-minded human beings, not for narrow-minded animalistic racists.
Karo
September 10, 2009
Greetings Alien
It maybe a coincidence, but your story reminds me of a story of an immigrant. This immigrant was in agony because SuPo stated that this man belonged to an organization that was somehow connected with terrorism.
Was that you by any chance? It may be a bit of a personal question, but I’m curious.
Karo
September 10, 2009
And my answer to the question you asked Enrique is, yes I have experienced racism while I have been living in Finland.
Enrique
September 10, 2009
Hi Karo, and thank you for sharing your comment with us. If you have experienced racism in Finland, how did it show?
alien
September 10, 2009
Hi Karo:
I was labeled by Finland, a threat against its security and a cause of disorder. Supo never stated its reason/reasons for that. Not even a single fact or proof. This was a source of upset for Finnish judiciary system in that of how to convict a man without a reason! eventually Finns (supreme court)traded their souls with devil and stated against their constitution that supo needs not to say the reasons! Latter on I lost my job as well because I did not pass Supo’s security check. I am sure that Finland will someday receives the echo of their verdict that ruined and changed a mans life through the real threat in their country. That day Finland pay a too big price for their atrocities against immigrants like me.
And to answer your questions; I have never been a member of a terrorist group. If I was Finland would not and should not grant me permanent resident permit in 1997, according to the alien act.
alex
September 10, 2009
20 years ago I been in Vienna Austria. It was vary clean and calm city.Now Vienna is dirty and full with graffiti and crime city.The same happen with my country USA,homosexuality,crime,open borders and tolerant people of above.Result we lost country Communist Obama with his radicals got power.Not immigrants created this problems, but law that not punish crime and government’s welfare programs.I been in Finland for short time from Helsinki to Kuusamo.I was glad to see around only Finnish, and enjoy with clean,calm and beautiful rich country.
Enrique
September 11, 2009
Hi Alex, I sent you an email and was wondering if you received it. Would it be possible to get in touch with you? I am a journalist and written a lot on the subject of Russian refugees to Finland during the Cold War. It would be interesting to get in touch. You can, if you wish, respond to my email: etessieri@gmail.com.
d_lexicon
September 11, 2009
Only 10 mins ago, my wife (who’s a hardworking nurse, with two degrees) called me to say someone just upset her. Apparently, on her way home from work, without any provocation, a finn called her a ‘stupid black person’ in Finnish. Of course she understood what he said and gave him an earful. It just made me wonder how many times I might’ve been referred to that way without knowing, seeing that I don’t understand Finnish as well as she does.
I have to agree that the penchant alot of immigrants (especially my fellow Africans) have for crime and dishonesty almost justifies the racism. However, I’m wont to also doubt strongly that we would be treated much differently even if we were as saintly as Jesus Christ Himself.
More than the content of our character, the colour of our skin has damned us to a lifetime of overt and covert discrimination. C’est la vie!
Enrique
September 11, 2009
Hi d_lexicon, thank you for sharing your story with us. Yelling at immigrants on the street is one of the most common forms of racism that you can find in Finland. But I disagree with you on one important point: Blacks may have it harder than whiter immigrant groups but this does not mean we have to sit back and bare it. It is our job to speak out against racism and give it no mercy. If not for us, at least for our children and grandchildren.
Hussain
September 13, 2009
I respect Finns and Finland one Millions times, they are the most beautiful people on this earth.
Enrique
September 13, 2009
Hi Hussain, thank you for sharing your views and welcome to Migrant Tales. It would be interesting for us to know how Finland became your beloved home.
Karo
September 13, 2009
Well, I have experienced shoutin on the streets too. When I was at the Helsinki Railway Station some bloke yelled something at me. However I didn`t understand what he was saying so I asked him to repeat it, after that my mother urged me to continue walking so I didn`t hear the reply. I think it was something like “Jorma”.
By the way I, once the person who treated me in racistic way was himself black. It happened in a daycare center, I think he wasalous coz he wanted to be the only black person in class. I was however invited to his birthday party later, let us just say I didn*t enjoy myself very much.
alien: I never accused you of being a terrorist or a member of a terrorist group. They just mentioned in a news broadcast that the man was suspected of belongint to a group that had something to do with the terrorists. They didn’t specify if that was really the case.
Enrique
September 13, 2009
Hi Karo, I think that yelling racist remarks in public is one of the most common forms of overt racism in Finland. Your experience with the black person show, in my opinion, how other groups and people attempt to escape their low position in the social totem pole by pushing other groups/persons down. This was observed of some Roma, who became critical of Somalis that moved to Finland. Probably the stigma and label of being a minority is too hard for some to take.
–I never accused you of being a terrorist or a member of a terrorist group. They just mentioned in a news broadcast that the man was suspected of belonging to a group that had something to do with the terrorists.
Could you post the story for us, if possible?
alien
September 13, 2009
Could you post the story for us, if possible?
yes!
could u give me some reference about that. Because they did not bother to say reason!
Jaakko
September 13, 2009
Alien, is your first name Qari? If so, I found this MOT program’s story in Finnish.
http://lotta.yle.fi/motweb.nsf/sivut/ohjelma?opendocument&pageid=Content1542005C393
http://www.yle.fi/mot/tk061002/kasikirjoitus.htm
Note from Migrant Tales: Thank you for sending these links, Jaakko. Alien, you are under no obligation to reveal your identity.
alien
September 13, 2009
Jaako:
from the link u sent:
….
Naeemi:
I say that I am a member of JKLF, even my party chairman from England, and our office, from Brussels everywhere they wrote letters to the Government of Finland, that Naeemi is just a member of our organisation and our organisation is totally political organisation, it has nothing to do with any kind of Islamic or any kind of , this is just a world wide organisation and is based in England and UK and we are just working for independent state of Kashmir politically there, this was the letter.
…..
As u see this gentleman is from keshmir, I am from Iran
9 years in finland, I was 14 years.
and his case is oleskelulupa not kansalaisuus. This means that if I was a threat I should not have received oleskelulupa as it is the case with Naeemi, but I received that in May 2007, first time when they reminded me that you are the third person in finlad who receives political asylum. the other 2 were from Russia and china.
I should also emphasize that I am not moslem, I believe in secularism, laisism and liberal-democracy values. So they cannot attach me to any thing.
with half a brain, every body knows if you get an B.Sc, an M.Sc, and a MBA(in few months) in 12 years, u have no time to threat a fly, let alone a country. So if you think your country finland is a land of law and order, I am available to join any program to prove that innocent immigrants are deprived from their rights for nothing. finland is just to break the integrity of immigrants to feel relief. well gentlemen, this immigrant (ex immigrant) is not breakable. I am a man of hard work and there are wise people who give refuge to people like me.
this was only for your attention.
alien
September 14, 2009
wrong: but I received that in May 2007,
correct: but I received that in May 1997,
Jaakko
September 14, 2009
My mistake. I only checked your recent posts, but now i found your first one written as ‘alian from middle east’ in which you explain your case. But in a way Naeemi’s experiences are similar to yours. He also was suspected of being a threat against the Finnish society and SUPO wouldn’t give him any explanations. They made it difficult for him to live in Finland and ruined his life.
intternetnetsi
September 15, 2009
“Hi Karo, I think that yelling racist remarks in public is one of the most common forms of overt racism in Finland.”
How we stand against teethism, hairism, weightism, earism, faceism, noseism, leggism, walkism, handism, whateverism…
All these i have heard as insult in street.
What if we start look race as other things?
I do and you dont, you want to get “othersess up” and i dont. I dont think if someone is different colour he should have special priviledges, you do. Who is racists?
Enrique
September 16, 2009
–How we stand against teethism, hairism, weightism, earism, faceism, noseism, leggism, walkism, handism, whateverism…
All these i have heard as insult in street.
Come on, Hannu, sometimes you amaze me! In all my life, in my many travels and meetings with people from many backgrounds, I have never heard anyone speak of “teethism or hairism,” even though these terms are pushed around in the Internet. So, congratulations, thank you for the heads up! Even so, you compare racism with the above because you belittle it. It is not an issue for a you since you are a white Finn that has not felt the weight and full force of this social ill.
intternetnetsi
September 16, 2009
Of course you haven because i just invented those just like racism is invented. Now i invent phobias.
My friend wanted rent his flat to young woman so he was agefobic and malefobic.
My other friend needed a one to talk native mandarin china, he hired one from china. He is europhopic, finnphopic and whateverphobic.
I didnt get a work because they were northphopic and malephopic and areaphopic. Or was it just because someone better came in?`cant be.. have to find phobia!
People asked me because i “sounded dark and comforting”… they were nondarkafobic and nonconfortiblefobic! And dialectfobic and wayofspeechfobic!
There is fobias everywhere!
And you have right wing phobia and hannu phobia!
Enrique
September 17, 2009
–And you have right wing phobia and hannu phobia!
Do I? I like your sense of humor. By the way, if I had an irrational fear of you and right wingers, wouldn’t I be hiding in some corner? Whatever you say, racism is racism and there is no way around that.
Tiwaz
September 17, 2009
-”Naeemi:
I say that I am a member of JKLF, even my party chairman from England, and our office, from Brussels everywhere they wrote letters to the Government of Finland, that Naeemi is just a member of our organisation and our organisation is totally political organisation, it has nothing to do with any kind of Islamic or any kind of , this is just a world wide organisation and is based in England and UK and we are just working for independent state of Kashmir politically there, this was the letter.”
Ah, and of course Sinn Fein has no connections to IRA.
Reality is that purpose of SUPO is to seek to protect Finland and Finnish society, not to egostroke foreigners.
If your background check comes back as questionable, it is their duty to act. Too bad about poor guy, but I would find it worse if SUPO just acted as approving rubber stamp for all immigrants without making checks.
-”with half a brain, every body knows if you get an B.Sc, an M.Sc, and a MBA(in few months) in 12 years, u have no time to threat a fly, let alone a country. So if you think your country finland is a land of law and order, I am available to join any program to prove that innocent immigrants are deprived from their rights for nothing. finland is just to break the integrity of immigrants to feel relief. well gentlemen, this immigrant (ex immigrant) is not breakable. I am a man of hard work and there are wise people who give refuge to people like me.
this was only for your attention.”
And of course if you had some connections to organizations of questionable reputation you would be eager here to say so.
Odds are in favor that something questionable came up in your background, most likely provided by foreign intel agency, and thus your citizenship was denied. This information was made available to Supreme court, but due to common practice in such situation intel was not made public.
Most intelligence agencies find it quite annoying to have their confidential intelligence to be made public as this has ill effects in future intelligence gathering.
It is ridiculous to say that SUPO would start hunting some guy from Iran without any reason to do so.
intternetnetsi
September 17, 2009
“Do I? I like your sense of humor. By the way, if I had an irrational fear of you and right wingers, wouldn’t I be hiding in some corner?”
So howcome people who loudly condemn islam are islamaphobe and who loudly condemn unregulated immigration are xenophobes?
“Whatever you say, racism is racism and there is no way around that.”
Yes it exist like all other “isms” i listed. That i dont like leeching group who happens to be different than me isnt racism tho, i dont like leeching house breakers (talonvaltaaja in english?) too even if they are finnish. I call them fucking hippies who should be beaten with reality baton. Im i quilty of hippyism?
Enrique
September 18, 2009
–So howcome people who loudly condemn islam are islamaphobe and who loudly condemn unregulated immigration are xenophobes?
What are you condemning? The human rights violations that a culture commits in our liberal democratic countries are a whole culture because you don’t like Islam?
intternetnetsi
September 18, 2009
What you think islam is?
Karo
September 19, 2009
Thank you Jaakko, for your valuable information. I don’t remember the news story very well, but I’m pretty sure that Qari is the lad, I was referring to.
To intternetnatsi, I’d like to point out, that one of the leading critics against multiculturalism in Finland Jussi Halla-aho, has admitted that he fears Islam. Therefore he has also admiited that, he is in fact a xenophobe. Not that there’s anything wrong, at having a healthy fear of strangers.
Enrique, your greatest concern, about racism in our fine and beautiful country seems to be, that there are three times as many unemployed immigrants than there are Finns. Could you summarize, why do you think, the situation is what it is?
Karo
September 19, 2009
Islam is a religion, and there is absolutely no reason to fear it.
Jaakko
September 19, 2009
‘Islam is a religion, and there is absolutely no reason to fear it.’
Religions aren’t dangerous, but believers can be. Imaginary creatures can’t do any harm without people crazy enought to fight for them. It’s like with guns and people who shoot with the guns. But there is no reason to fear every muslim or christian or scientologist, most of them just want to live in peace. Nevertheless it’s healthy to be suspicious instead of taking the Troyan horse right into the city.
Fearing Islam doesn’t alone make a person xenophobe.
intternetnetsi
September 19, 2009
“To intternetnatsi, I’d like to point out, that one of the leading critics against multiculturalism in Finland Jussi Halla-aho, has admitted that he fears Islam. Therefore he has also admiited that, he is in fact a xenophobe. Not that there’s anything wrong, at having a healthy fear of strangers.”
Phobia is irrational fear, doesnt fit in this case.
“Islam is a religion, and there is absolutely no reason to fear it.”
Islam isnt only religion. Its total system what dictates every part of your life.
There is no peace, equality or human rights in islam. Islamic declaralation of human rights have clause “if its not against sharia” and i think most of sharia is against human rights.
There is very well reason to fear it.
intternetnetsi
September 20, 2009
This is a long film and talker is ex terrorits, look that and say we have nothing to fear of.
Look also undercover mosque and what west should know about islam.
Enrique
September 20, 2009
–Enrique, your greatest concern, about racism in our fine and beautiful country seems to be, that there are three times as many unemployed immigrants than there are Finns. Could you summarize, why do you think, the situation is what it is?
Hi Karo, there are many reasons for this: language and work culture proficiency, suspicion and racism. All these things work together. Under our present laws, we are not supposed to discriminate when hiring. However, this happens. There is also a lot of questions that a Finnish employer may have. Will he have to spend more time than normal to bring the new employee up to speed? If we are speaking of menial jobs there are less “cultural differences” in place than employment that requires greater linguistic, cultural and professional skills.
If unemployment is twice as high as the national average for the whole population and even four times higher in some regions of Finland, I believe it is a good indicator of discrimination and the failure of the system to integrate immigrants. Moreover, Finns consider work as a crucial element of their lives and their incorporation into society. One effective way of exclusion is through unemployment. So, to conclude, it is a mix of things. However, if I had to use a barometer to measure acceptance of immigrants in Finland, I would certainly use the jobless rate.
Another important matter to look into would be the health of foreigners. Do foreigners that live in Finland and suffer from high unemployment have more health problems than average? These are all symptoms of discrimination and exclusion that you can find in any society. Finland is no different.
Enrique
September 20, 2009
–Islam is a religion, and there is absolutely no reason to fear it.
Thank you for the answer. I think that if we lived in the 1980s, many would be complaining about the blacks and how inferior they are to whites. Today it is in vogue to bash Muslims, unfortunately.
Enrique
September 20, 2009
–Fearing Islam doesn’t alone make a person xenophobe.
Hannu, making idiotic and slanderous statements about a religion is not only xenophobic but outright stupid. If you add to that mix the opportunistic element of politics, what does that tell about the character of that person and the party that is supposed to “save us from ourselves?” Give me a break!
Enrique
September 20, 2009
–This is a long film and talker is ex terrorits, look that and say we have nothing to fear of.
Hannu, I listened half way and got the message. One of the feels that one get by listening to this man is a very one-sided view of the issue. He tells you that it is all Palestinians’ fault for the “terrorism.” I don’t like to use the term “terrorism” because it is highly charged politically. If we want to single out an enemy, then why don’t we call it by its name (al-Quaeda, for example).
Sorry Hannu, I like some of the things he says such as questioning Palestinians’ hatred of Israelis but he does not speak of the hatred of the Israelis towards Palestinians. He speaks of “freedom of speech,” but could he speak in the same tone to such an audience if he were anti-Israeli.
Enrique
September 20, 2009
–This is a long film and talker is ex terrorits, look that and say we have nothing to fear of.
Hannu, I listened half way and got the message. One of the feels that one gets by listening to this man is a very one-sided view of the issue. He tells you that it is all the Palestinians’ fault for the “terrorism.” I don’t like to use the term “terrorism” because it is highly charged politically. If we want to single out an enemy, then why don’t we call it by its name (al-Qaeda, for example). When you use the term “terrorism” I get flashbacks from the junta days in Argentina. By sounding off the need to crush “terrorism,” the military government had a carte blanche to terrorize its people through torture and misinformation to name a few. George Bush did it too. It gave him the permission to invade Iraq and do basically anything he pleased. You use the word Muslim in the same fashion.
Sorry Hannu, I like some of the things he says such as questioning Palestinians’ hatred of Israelis but he does not speak of the hatred of the Israelis towards Palestinians. He speaks of “freedom of speech,” but could he speak in the same tone to such an audience if he were anti-Israeli?
Jaakko
September 20, 2009
Those statements about islam being a pedofile religion can be insulting but they are also true. Or did Muhammad not sleep with a nine-year-old? And isn’t Muhammad according to islam the most perfect man ever lived, whose deeds should be copied? Maybe it’s good, that not all of us are sheep tolerating every sin or crime against humanity just because it is camouflaged to look a part of some exotic religion. If these matters aren’t being discussed, how could things ever get better? Besides we have for decades been able to joke about pedofiles in the catholic church and their love for choirboys. Religions aren’t above everything.
intternetnetsi
September 20, 2009
“Hannu, making idiotic and slanderous statements about a religion is not only xenophobic but outright stupid.”
I didnt know that tatars are foreigners, and no its not stupid. Martin Luther king said something “idiotic and slanderous” about religion, how stupid…
intternetnetsi
September 20, 2009
Sorry its Martin Luther, no king in there
I also remember one guy who liked to look stars and said earth revolves around sun! Stupid!
Other fellow looked all kind of animals and said nah, world wasnt created 6000 years a go. Slanderous!
Both of these beliefs are strong in highly religious areas. Should we tolerate and understand those or try to teach those “new” proved things?
Tiwaz
September 21, 2009
Karo, you could think for yourself why immigrants are not employed.
Enrique of course gives his rather irrational explanation but if you bothered to look at Finnish society and those who are most likely to be unemployed you can reach completely different solution.
Enrique thinks that problem for immigrant employment are Finns. Reality is that problem for immigrant employment are…. Immigrants!
Highest level of unemployment are for groups like Somali and other MidEast/African groups.
Why?
Well, to get a job, you need to present to employer set of skills which make you capable of fulfilling the duties set for you as employee.
Finland is extremely proficient society with high set of demands for jobs. And requirement for efficiency.
What does Somalian refugee have to offer? Most likely nothing! There is huge percentage of illiterate people there. Finns are basically 100% literate and that is considered basic requirement for every job.
For example simple thing like cleaning job. There are often WRITTEN instructions for the task or use of chemicals. If you can’t read, what use are you to employer?
And even if Somalian managed to read, we meet next problem. Everything is in FINNISH. And many immigrants appear to treat learning fluent Finnish to be trouble they cannot be bothered with. Is it any surprise that people with so shitty attitude are not fought over in employment market?
Oh, and let us not forget that there WILL be some form of customer contact in just about every job. Even your most menial cleaning duty can involve someone coming over and making a request for you. For example change on the order of cleaning things because they need to use room X for 15 more minutes. This again is in Finnish.
So, core of problem is that your average Somali employee would need to have one Finn employed to watch over them and instruct them. Essentially hiring two people to do work of one. Is that efficient in your view?
On some jobs it is possible to have such working conditions, mostly in various restaurants/fast food joints for dishwasher. There job is extremely simple and there is someone always who can look at what you do. But there just aren’t McDonald’s dishwasher jobs for every immigrant.
d_lexicon
September 21, 2009
‘Highest level of unemployment are for groups like Somali and other MidEast/African groups.’
Tiwaz,
Your arguement isn’t completely accurate, and that’s putting it politely. The reason being, I am African so I obviously fall under the group you describe above. However, because I have 2 Masters degrees I am clearly far from ‘illiterate’ (unless you believe, like I’m sure many people like you do, that no matter how educated an African is he is still ‘illiterate’).
Unfortunately, the only job I seem to be qualified to do here is deliver newspapers (and I can tell you that there are many more like me with 1 or 2 masters degrees and even PhDs!) So perhaps your arguement about having to learn finnish makes a little more sense.
But there is also a problem here. This is because I know quite a few people with conversational fluency in finnish who are still having a hard time finding work. So my questions to you are:
1. What is the threshold level of fluency that must be attained before the ‘MidEast/African group’ become employable or ‘literate’?
2. Do immigrants from other parts of the world attain this level of fluency before finding jobs or is the problem only unique to the MidEast/African group?
3. What do you expect us to do whilst attaining this level of fluency?
4. Do you think it is possible for most immigrants to ever attain this level of fluency?
d_lexicon
September 21, 2009
The vast majority of the 100000 work under the cover of darkness or at jobs where they interact with windows, floors, or newspapers. They are obviously better of doing jobs where they don’t have to interact with their finnish hosts who don’t want them here in the first place.
intternetnetsi
September 21, 2009
Enrique http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt77xc8ESkE explain this.
Tiwaz
September 22, 2009
-”Your arguement isn’t completely accurate, and that’s putting it politely. The reason being, I am African so I obviously fall under the group you describe above. However, because I have 2 Masters degrees I am clearly far from ‘illiterate’ (unless you believe, like I’m sure many people like you do, that no matter how educated an African is he is still ‘illiterate’).
Unfortunately, the only job I seem to be qualified to do here is deliver newspapers (and I can tell you that there are many more like me with 1 or 2 masters degrees and even PhDs!) So perhaps your arguement about having to learn finnish makes a little more sense.
But there is also a problem here. This is because I know quite a few people with conversational fluency in finnish who are still having a hard time finding work. So my questions to you are:”
Of course, that you have master’s degree means that all thousands or other African/Middle Eastern immigrants/refugees possess it.
And literacy skills.
You also do not tell us WHAT are your “master’s degrees etc”. If they are in humanist field, you are out of luck. We overproduce useless humanists as it is, and if your papers are not verified and translated into their Finnish equivalents you are out of luck. First you are on field which is overflowing with applicants and then your papers are not verified.
Finnish companies/institutions tend to not take Master’s Degree In Everything Possible from Arsescrach Uni, Hicksville Ohio very seriously.
You have to walk with them to Finnish University and have them sorted out to their Finnish equivalents, which in turn are recognized by Finnish companies.
-”1. What is the threshold level of fluency that must be attained before the ‘MidEast/African group’ become employable or ‘literate’?”
Depends on job. In every case you must be able to read and understand instructions in Finnish.
And it does not end there, you have to show to your potential employer that you are worth the expenses. If your attitude sucks from start and you fail to impress interviewer with your attitude… You are not going to get hired even if you could recite Kalevala with zero accent.
-”2. Do immigrants from other parts of the world attain this level of fluency before finding jobs or is the problem only unique to the MidEast/African group?”
It again depends on their skillsets. Most western immigrants have completed studies which are much more easily exchanged into their Finnish equivalents, while also having very high literacy levels.
This compared to Somalia having literacy rates of 49% (males) and 25% (female).
Ethiopia 50 and 37 respectively.
Nigeria whoppint 75 and 60.
Egypt 83 and 59.
You also notice how culturally these statistics are twisted in favor of males. (another big issue for African immigrants, the cultural gap)
For Finland, 100 and 100.
Russia 99,7 and 99,2
Romania 98 and 96
Greece 87 and 93.
As you can see, in large portion of Africa (most of) every second immigrant cannot read or write. While less than one in ten from Western immigrants are illiterate.
In country where 100% literacy is expected, that is going to be huge issue in getting a job.
Without literacy, there is little in way of education. And Finland is ALL about education.
-”3. What do you expect us to do whilst attaining this level of fluency?”
Anything you wish as long as you are not taking advantage from our social security system or engaged in any criminal activity.
Do you think we should lower our standards to level which immigrants can meet or run huge goat farms, against economical sense, for Somalian refugees who have no skills beyond goat herding?
Welcome to Finland, here YOU are responsible for making yourself successful. Don’t expect us to bring you everything on silver platter.
Perhaps these African/Middle Eastern immigrants should learn from Chinese and Vietnamese immigrants. They tend to be very close to (even below) Finnish unemployment percentage.
-”4. Do you think it is possible for most immigrants to ever attain this level of fluency?”
Yes, huge number already have. But they actually put lots of hours to learning.
For some high profile immigrants who have achieved extremely good fluency google Neil Hardwick and Roman Schatz.
If you wish to test your fluency, here are two websites. If you can successfully read and understand them, you are fluent enough.
Then it is only question of you having right set of other skills to be employed.
http://laivaontaynna.blogspot.com/2006/06/5-somaleista-ky-tiss.html
http://keronen.blogspot.com/2008/09/maahanmuuttajien-tyttmyys-ei-johdu.html
AND EVERYONE WHINING ABOUT UNEMPLOYMENT READ BELOW WITH THOUGHT!
Employer does NOT hire you because they like hiring people. Employers hire people to do a task. They do NOT practice charity, or if they do they go bankrupt.
Employee must convince employer that he/she has all the skills to either do the task, or very quickly learn to do the task so successfully, that money generated by that work is greater than money lost to expenses which employee causes to employer.
This is where immigrants fail. They either have no necessary skills or ability to convince the employer.
So, every immigrant whining about unemployment. Look in the mirror, is there person in the mirror who has both the skills to fulfill needs of employer AND skills to convince employer that they have those skills.
d_lexicon
September 22, 2009
I have a Masters in Finance from Svenska Handelshögskolan (The Hanken School of Economics) here in Finland) and an MBA from Blekinge Tekniska Högskolan (Blekinge Institute of Technology) in Sweden, so there’s clearly no issues with translation, equivalence, or comparability.
Other than the above, you’ve outlined a number of useful points. As per learning the language, you might not know it, but it is extremely hard. I have been taking classes with the Helsinki Summer University and it isn’t a walk in the park. All we ask for is a little patience and faith in our abilities.
Enrique
September 22, 2009
Hi d_lexicon, language is a kinky matter. Some learn it easier than others. Even so, I think that the attitude of society in general plays a role. If society is hostile to you why would you even want to learn its language. I am not referring to you, but one should get encouragement.
Enrique
September 22, 2009
–As you can see, in large portion of Africa (most of) every second immigrant cannot read or write. While less than one in ten from Western immigrants are illiterate.
Thank you for the explanation but I don’t know what you are trying to point out if the person has two masters degrees.
d_lexicon
September 22, 2009
Hi Enrique,
you’re spot on, sometimes the depth of the hostility makes the language requirement seem like little more than a ruse. One is led to believe that not much of a difference will be made even if fluency is achieved.
Enrique
September 22, 2009
–Enrique http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt77xc8ESkE explain this.
How can I explain anything like this? It is a tragedy. By the way, the site, http://www.snaphanen.dk, appears to enjoy bashing Muslims and crusading on how they should be kicked out of Europe. Am I wrong?
Enrique
September 22, 2009
–I worked in one of those “international companies” in Finland and guess what…I was the only one with a foreign background there. Was wondering where all those 100.000 foreigners are working here in Finland.
About a quarter are officiall unemployed and the majority regular-to-low paying jobs. There is a minority that must make a lot of money. This is only an educated guess.
intternetnetsi
September 22, 2009
“How can I explain anything like this? It is a tragedy. By the way, the site, http://www.snaphanen.dk, appears to enjoy bashing Muslims and crusading on how they should be kicked out of Europe. Am I wrong?”
How i know, thats clip from TV not from page. And you have claimed that immigration is not problem and multiculturalism is richness. There you see other culture on action.
intternetnetsi
September 22, 2009
“About a quarter are officiall unemployed and the majority regular-to-low paying jobs. There is a minority that must make a lot of money. This is only an educated guess.”
Like finnish youth.
intternetnetsi
September 22, 2009
d_lexicon so you really thought finland is bilingual, even fences are lauhging at you…
intternetnetsi
September 22, 2009
“–As you can see, in large portion of Africa (most of) every second immigrant cannot read or write. While less than one in ten from Western immigrants are illiterate.
Thank you for the explanation but I don’t know what you are trying to point out if the person has two masters degrees.”
Are you pretending or are you stupid?
Large portion is not all, its large portion. Do you follow?
Ok.
My mom, granma and uncle are good cooks, large portion of my immediate family arent. Is our family good cooks because some are?
Other example is youth football club, large portion of them arent fat. So are they then fat club because few are?
Am i great runner because of Ritola?
Tiwaz
September 23, 2009
-”I have a Masters in Finance from Svenska Handelshögskolan (The Hanken School of Economics) here in Finland) and an MBA from Blekinge Tekniska Högskolan (Blekinge Institute of Technology) in Sweden, so there’s clearly no issues with translation, equivalence, or comparability.”
So you chose to go financial. Business where you essentially have to communicate with people all the time. And quite likely with customers.
And now you are shocked that you can’t find a job?
You can’t communicate with customers in their preferred language. Which in Finland is Finnish.
-”As per learning the language, you might not know it, but it is extremely hard. I have been taking classes with the Helsinki Summer University and it isn’t a walk in the park. All we ask for is a little patience and faith in our abilities.”
I know it is hard. It was hard for me in the past to learn Swedish because it had so little, namely nothing, in common with my native language.
But what do you expect me or rest of Finns to do? Change our language because immigrants do not want to see the same trouble we see to learn languages?
Or have companies hire people who can’t pull their own weight because of their lack of language skills?
Sorry, but this is YOUR problem and you have to sort it out. It is unrealistic to assume that 5 million Finns would change their society to appease handful of immigrants.
Enrique:
“Hi d_lexicon, language is a kinky matter. Some learn it easier than others. Even so, I think that the attitude of society in general plays a role. If society is hostile to you why would you even want to learn its language. I am not referring to you, but one should get encouragement.”
Encouragement? How about immigrants accepting that this is the way Finland is. We are not hostile towards immigrants, as long as they do not whine about it being so “unfair that they have to learn so hard language”.
Do you think WE learned 2+ foreign languages without putting work to it? I have been sitting in language classes from 3rd grade. First one language, then second. Then third. And when I got further in studies it got more complicated…
Technical English, bureaucrat level Swedish…
And thinking of getting more languages on my spare time, Japanese has always felt interesting.
NONE of those skills has come without MY hard work. When you foreigners bitch and whine about how it is unfair how hard Finnish is, you are forgetting that we Finns have to cross the same barrier because none of the foreign languages are simple for us for same reason.
So less whining immigrants, more hard work. And you might notice that only “hostility” is between your own ears, and if you bother to do your utmost to fit in… Finns are quite willing to accept you.
But if you come forth with attitude that you are “entitled” to things and that it is unfair that you have to adjust to Finnish culture and society.
Well, literally translated Finnish proverb “Niin metsä vastaa kuin sinne huudetaan” is The forest answers in the same way one shouts in it.” Message is same as in English version “What goes around, comes around.”
Enrique
September 23, 2009
–How i know, thats clip from TV not from page. And you have claimed that immigration is not problem and multiculturalism is richness. There you see other culture on action.
I never said that immigration is problem-free. On the contrary, it brings a lot of challenges. Different societies deal with it in a different way. But yes, a society comprised of many cultures is a richness. It always has been and will be in the future unless you plan to destroy it with the help of discrimination and exclusion.
Tiwaz
September 24, 2009
-”I never said that immigration is problem-free. On the contrary, it brings a lot of challenges. Different societies deal with it in a different way. But yes, a society comprised of many cultures is a richness. It always has been and will be in the future unless you plan to destroy it with the help of discrimination and exclusion.”
You SAY it is richness. You fail to present EVIDENCE that it is.
I can say that sky is green.
In fact, society with multiple cultures is weak, divided and bound to collapse. It is not richness, it is a disease.
Enrique
September 25, 2009
–hmmm.. but it seems that there are some Finns who like multiple cultures.
Yes, xyz, it appears that way. One of the greatest tragedies in this country is high unemployment, which has been brought on by economic factors as well as by our rigid employment system. Do you agree?
Tiwaz
September 25, 2009
I do not mind foreign cultures either. As I have repeatedly said, I quite enjoy familiarizing with them.
In their native lands.
I do not want immigrants to try to import their way of life to my home, any more than I want to export Finnish way of life to theirs.
Let their nation be whatever it is and Finland remain Finnish.
Those Finns heading abroad are not likely to start demanding “Finnization” of their new host nation in name of multiculturalism or else.
Something other immigrants should learn as well.
Enrique
September 26, 2009
Hi xyz, thank you for sharing these questions with us. With respect to your second comment, I believe it has to do a lot with the environment. There is a lot more racism in Finland than we would want to admit. High unemployment is a a good barometer.
Karo
September 27, 2009
Tiwaz I’d like to know do you really believe, that there is no discrimination whatsoever that is based on race?
It is true that most of (over 50%) the somali population is illiterate. They would have problems finding work practically anywhere outside their native country. Some of them are also heinous criminals that deserve no sympathy.
But, what about those middle-eastern, black or all kinds of people who can be said to belong to a different race and won’t get jobs? Even if they are well educated and know the language and can be expected to perform just as well as any finn?
I do not think that those are the main reason for high unemplyment among immigrants, but do you really think that such cases don’t exist at all?
It is not the sole fault of finns nor the immigrants, both of us are to blame.
The teaching of finnish language to immigrants could be better organized. There was a man in this blog who called some finnish dialect a hick-redneck way of speaking coz he didn’t apparently realize that the dialects are used by all kinds of people.
Same holds true for book-language and speak-language, they are in many ways vastly diffrent of each other, one who does not know the language well might even suspect that they are two completely different languages.
How do we expect them to communicate with us fluently and learn from us, if they can only speak language that people don’t even normally use. Knowing formal finnish is better than nothing, but immigrants may end up missing many things, and it may even prevent them to get to know our culture in a deeper sense.
Another one of your points seems to be this: let us preserve our own culture and let the others preserve theirs. It doesn’t work that way it just doesn’t, cultures will change, be it in the field of food, mannerisms or anything in between. Some things of course will not be adapted, but some will.
I’d also like to say this, one of the hugest problems in Finland is alcoholism. 10% of us are alcoholists of some sort. I dunno if this situation will change for better, with embracing parts of foreign cultures, but I for once am glad to try it.
Does it show, that I’m a bit shocked because of Tiwaz’s comments?
I am eagerly waiting for a response, and I’m hoping that we can have a intersting and constructive conversation
Karo
September 27, 2009
It would also be intesting to read more horror stories about racism in this country. Could people who’ve experienced this kinda treatment post more of them? That way I’ll have a model example of how I should not act.
Col
September 27, 2009
Interesting reading, many different accounts of life experiences whilst living in Finland. I had a Finnish girlfriend last year, for just over a year. We were friends for many years having met in 1995 on a summer holiday. Anyway she contacted me in 2007 and we began a more serious relationship which was going well initially but ended mostly due to the seamingly hopelessness of my finding work there(enabling me to live there).
During the time I spent in Finland I never experienced any problems, was welcomed always. I’m white and don’t look ‘Non-Finnsh’ which could explain why I never had any awkward moments. I do believe that Finns are entitled to be protective of their land and culture and I also believe that having immigrants incoming from ‘very different countries’ is rarely very wise. I myself don’t really enjoy witnessing the many Somali immigrants here in the UK, people who’ve perhaps come here for a better life(understandable) but people who none the less cannot realistically hope to contribute significantly positively to society here or in a country like Finland.
So, I understand the Finns, even if I was perhaps a victim of a biased job market. That bias is very justified, how can it be considered fair to Finns to be denied a job by a person who recently came into their country from abroad(unless the Finn was significantly less suitable). It’s only natural to meet the needs of the native folks before considering the foreigner’s needs. People coming from Solamia and elsewhere sometimes serve to create resentment among the natives, justifiably so.
So I still desire to live in Finland someday, I speak good basic Finnish and study a little every day. I will go there again someday, try to work in my trade and integrate. I can do it because I understand and respect the Finns and their culture, minä rakastan saunasta, olutta ja jääkiekkosta, that always helps!
Col
Col
September 27, 2009
Hei Enrique
Glad I found this forum, you’re a good, balanced host as far as I can glean. I immediately have respect for someone who can succeed in Finland against a language barrier, which was even greater back when you arrived and also as a foreigner. I don’t believe however that Finns are ‘racist’ generally, just that they are trying to protect their culture and lifestyle. Too many immigrants will usually have a negative impact on this lifestyle in various ways.
Anyway, I’ll leave it at that for now!
Hyvää blogi!
Col
prometo
September 27, 2009
Reading Tiwaz’s comments has left me with a huge stomache ache. As an immigrant in Finland for the past 7 years, I can tell outsider’s that sadly Tiwaz’s thinking is prevalent among many if not most native born ethnic Finns. Immigrants in Finland have problems speaking Finnish to Finns because of their parochial, patronizing and dehumanizing attitude of Finns towards immigrants. Immigrants are not wanted in Finland period. Finnish society has made it next to impossible for Finns to integrate, become mainstream, and have any success. I believe that I am Finnish because this is my country where I live, where I have payed thousands of euros in taxes, and where I try and support my family. But to someone like Tiwaz, I will never be Finnish. Finns hide behind English and Swedish and have this tribal mindset of ‘us’ versus ‘them’. If you study tribal societies then you will begin to understand the Finns. I have met ‘Finns’ that were born and raised in Sweden, and have come back to Finland and upon seeing me speak in English, even though my Finnish skills are better then theirs. Finns cannot divorce the fact that their language is spoken by immigrants, not foreingners, from all over the world that live here, that have made Finland there own kotimaa. I can spend hours giving instances of the racism/discrimination that my friends and I have encountered in this country. Once you are in the Finnish ‘suomalaisuus’, you become one of the tribe, but still a peculiar outsider. Maybe a loose analogy would be a ‘house’ slave living in the master’s plantation, in the pre-antibellum american south, versus an african slave in the field. There is a difference, but you are still an outsider. In Denmark they use the term ‘new Danes’ for the immigrants from all over the world that have settled in there country, and I like that term. I am a ‘new Finn’ as are many in Finland. ‘Old Finns’ and ‘New Finns’ are Finns, living in the same homeland, having a sense of pride when they see the blue cross on a while field fluttering in the wind. The ‘Old Finn’ might have been born in Joensuu and the new one in jakarta, but they are both equally Finns if they hold Finnish citizenship.
Enrique
September 28, 2009
Hi Prometo, welcome to Migrant Tales and thank you for sharing your ideas. I think you make a very valid point that has not been studied closed enough. If there is a stringent “us” and “them” feeling in Finnish society and language played a key role in unifying Finns in the 19th century, is it being used to exclude others? I think it is but we cannot generalize. Language identifies them and keeps them distant from others like a shield. If you want rapid integration of immigrants in Finland, you are going to have to find some other means – you cannot teach everyone to speak proficient Finnish. Take a look at the United States: you can even take your drivers license in another language, go to shops where people speak your country and live without speaking English. I am not saying that this is a good solution. What I am saying is that society makes room for newcomers in this respect as well.
Tiwaz
September 28, 2009
“1. I was wondering how you know what those Finns are doing in their new host country?”
Perhaps I have contacts with them? Perhaps I know how Finnish mind tends to work?
”
2. Maybe the result of how foreigners behave in Finland is also a result of their environment?”
If it is, it is due to environment being too appeasing. Give it a finger and it demands the whole hand.
-”But, what about those middle-eastern, black or all kinds of people who can be said to belong to a different race and won’t get jobs? Even if they are well educated and know the language and can be expected to perform just as well as any finn?”
Do they speak Finnish? Can they read and write in Finnish?
Do they put dozens upon dozens of hours to LEARN to do these things?
And even if they think they do fluently, you have to remember that what is fluent in mind of immigrant can be ear straining pidgin to native.
And finally, have they EVER bothered to figure out how FINNISH society and culture works instead of assuming their way is going to work here?
This is actually point I have tried to hammer into people. Islamic cultures are extremely unlike Finnish, or western, ones. Practices considered polite, normal or required are often absent in western society.
Middle Eastern person who fails to adjust is not going to find a job.
-”How do we expect them to communicate with us fluently and learn from us, if they can only speak language that people don’t even normally use. Knowing formal finnish is better than nothing, but immigrants may end up missing many things, and it may even prevent them to get to know our culture in a deeper sense.”
If you can give immigrants Finnish skills with some pill or through osmosis, feel free to. Problem with immigrants is that they never figure out that THEY have to WORK to get that skill. And they have to USE and PRACTICE to get better.
I have spent possibly hundreds of hours trying to work on my English, and I am still far from fluent in terms of native. How many immigrants can say the same about Finnish?
My spoken English starts to rapidly decline when I spend longer times without speaking it. Immigrants tend to go to Finnish classes, spend 2 hours there without too much effort put to learning. And then walk home to their own familiar circles and never use Finnish again until at next Finnish classes if they can avoid it.
-”Another one of your points seems to be this: let us preserve our own culture and let the others preserve theirs. It doesn’t work that way it just doesn’t, cultures will change, be it in the field of food, mannerisms or anything in between. Some things of course will not be adapted, but some will.”
Yes it does work like that. Finns determine what is Finnish culture and what is accepted to it. Saying “cultures change” does NOT mean that Finns must accept whatever shit immigrants want to import here from their cultures.
Finns and only Finns can change their culture. For the rest it should either adjustment to Finnish culture or fuck off. They will most likely keep their culture, but they have to learn the ways and rules of Finnish culture to participate in Finnish society.
There is no prayer break in Finnish culture for muslim. So muslim has to figure out how to fit his cultural needs to Finnish framework. They cannot assume they can do as they please without any care for Finnish cultural tradition.
In Finnish culture you do not pierce ears of a baby. If you come from Medi(eval)terranean culture where it takes place you have to accept that it is not done here. If you STILL go and do it, accept that you are quite likely considered freak and child mutilator.
-”I am a ‘new Finn’ as are many in Finland. ‘Old Finns’ and ‘New Finns’ are Finns, living in the same homeland, having a sense of pride when they see the blue cross on a while field fluttering in the wind. The ‘Old Finn’ might have been born in Joensuu and the new one in jakarta, but they are both equally Finns if they hold Finnish citizenship.”
No, you are not equally Finns. You both share citizenship, but one of you identifies himself/herself through/with Finnish culture. Another does not.
Thus, new Finn is not Finn like old Finn.
What YOU have to get over is that you are not Finn like old Finn. But neither you should be shamed of it. If you let your children and grandchildren go their way, they most likely will become “Finn” in full meaning of word.
Meanwhile, there is no shame in not being Finn. If you adjust to local culture and language, you are still valuable part of this society and thus part of tribe as you say. Even if outsider, you are “our” outsider and thus worthy of support from Finns unlike “true” outsider.
I would never be anything but Finn. I could move to another country, adjust to it and live there, but I would never be Australian, British, Guatemalan etc. I would still be Finn in my heart till the day I die.
And I do not see it as a shame for native to make that difference between me and another native. Because that is how things are.
We can never truly divorce our cultural roots.
Tiwaz
September 28, 2009
I have contact to enough to know that they tend to go native.
Perhaps you would like to prove me area where Finns try to force locals to change their culture to Finnish one?
I cannot really prove negative, but you can prove location where Finns try to force natives to yield their culture in favor of Finnish one.
Unlike for example with Gastarbaiters of Germany, second or third generation of Finnish immigrants have lost most or all their cultural tradition and language.
Their parents or grandparents were Finns, following generations have gone local.
As for why so many living abroad. Those are mostly offspring of those who moved when Finland was suffering from serious shortages and shitty economy in the times long gone. They should not be counted as Finns anyway.
These days we have much more people wanting in than wanting out.
Enrique
September 28, 2009
Hi Col, and thank you for the kudos. By being “balanced” we attempt to allow as many opinions as possible as long as they are not directly insulting and racist. By debating we can all learn from each other.
Going back to what you wrote, I think that some native Finns are upstight about “an invasion” of foreigners. I don’t think this will happen because there are other countries in the EU that are more attractive. This fear of being “invaded by foreign hordes” is, in my opinion, an unfounded fear. It has, however, a lot to do with history and our relations with Russia.
Enrique
September 28, 2009
Hi xyz, this is not done directly for any specific research.
Enrique
September 28, 2009
–Unlike for example with Gastarbaiters of Germany, second or third generation of Finnish immigrants have lost most or all their cultural tradition and language.
Their parents or grandparents were Finns, following generations have gone local.
So you decide who is a Finn and who is not. It is a bit like Cesar giving the thumbs up or down in a gladiator fight. Here I think is one of the core problems or exclusion and prejudice: the one’s we keep out because they do not fit our definition of a person from such a group.
Tiwaz
September 29, 2009
-”where is the border of being a Finn and a real Finn and what is a Finn? I can’t belive that everybody within this country is simmilar? Even “real Finns” migrated to Finland. I don’t think that you have enough contacts in order to get a representative result.”
What is Finn? Person who is born and raised according to dominant culture present. One who speaks Finnish, acts Finnish etc.
Since you stupidly cling to your “what is Finn”-idiocy…
Finn is person who can be dropped to Helsinki, Tampere, Oulu, Mikkeli, Joensuu, Kittilä etc to mingle with native population and have them say “he is Finn”.
If you fail, you are not Finn.
-”So you decide who is a Finn and who is not. It is a bit like Cesar giving the thumbs up or down in a gladiator fight. Here I think is one of the core problems or exclusion and prejudice: the one’s we keep out because they do not fit our definition of a person from such a group.”
Finns decide who are Finns. If you can walk down the street or participate in whatever activity in Finland, mingle with natives and leave them with impression that you are Finn. Then you are Finn.
But that requires extremely fluent skill in Finnish spoken language and cultural tradition.
Most likely you Enrique you could never pass for a Finn.
Because criteria is extremely tight.
And this has nothing to do with possible tone of skin you might have.
Tiwaz
September 29, 2009
And Enrique, genes do NOT make you Finn.
Would you call a Finn someone who has grandparent or greatgrandparent who came from Finland?
I guess you would. This is a problem for you New World people. You have no proper roots so you try to loan or steal them from someone.
USA is filled with “American-Irish” people who have never seen Ireland, most likely could not put a finger on it in a map, have no grasp of it’s culture or language. And still try to claim to be Irish.
Or “Finns” who have never been to Finland, have no grasp of its culture or could not put together simplest phrase in Finnish to claim they are “American-Finnish”.
Karo
September 29, 2009
What you are saying is highly controversial. You say that if you’d move to another country you’d keep your culture no matter what, you however refuse the same right from an immigrant. I do understand what is your point for justifying this sort of thinking, but I don’t fully agree to it. Most human cultures are deep similar in many important ways, murder for example is wrong in all cultures.
There is no reason, why vastly different african and middle-eastern cultures couldn’t coexist in Finland. Eventually their children will probably become finns by heart and nature, but until then let them keep their own culture.
What do you think is “proper roots” anyway? Everybody is what they feel themselves to be. If descendant of an finnish immigrant in America feels that she/he is an american-finnish, then the person in question is, or if the person feels like he’s just an american then he or she is. You are what you feel you are, no other can decide that for you, not your community or neither your country, or your relatives or friends.
Tiwaz
September 29, 2009
-”What you are saying is highly controversial. You say that if you’d move to another country you’d keep your culture no matter what, you however refuse the same right from an immigrant. I do understand what is your point for justifying this sort of thinking, but I don’t fully agree to it. Most human cultures are deep similar in many important ways, murder for example is wrong in all cultures.”
Clearly you do not read my posts well. I have said I would remain Finn, but I would ADAPT to my surroundings. I would not go around doing things the Finnish way outside my home if it no longer worked.
I have never said foreigners could become Finns, at least without incredible amount of hard work.
But they CAN adjust their way of life to not conflict with Finnish one.
-”There is no reason, why vastly different african and middle-eastern cultures couldn’t coexist in Finland. Eventually their children will probably become finns by heart and nature, but until then let them keep their own culture.”
Really? Have you ever heard of this thing called “cultural conflict”? When two cultures with conflicting principles are put to vicinity of one another you get cultural conflict, which tends to become violent conflict.
Middle-Eastern cultures are on many levels completely incompatible with modern western society. There is no holding hands and singing kumbaya-option. One or another cultural group must yield their cultural tradition and adjust to demands of other groups tradition.
-”What do you think is “proper roots” anyway? Everybody is what they feel themselves to be. If descendant of an finnish immigrant in America feels that she/he is an american-finnish, then the person in question is, or if the person feels like he’s just an american then he or she is. You are what you feel you are, no other can decide that for you, not your community or neither your country, or your relatives or friends.”
What Finnish is there in this American-Finnish? Genome?
By genes, I would then be Russian/Swedish since one of my ancestors was citizen of Russian empire and others Swedish.
Your genome does not define who you are, your cultural upbringing does. And those “American-Finnish” people have nothing to do with Finnish language or culture.
They demean my cultural heritage by claiming to have it when they have no grasp of it. Huge majority never even having SEEN Finland.
Let’s take Lola Wallinkoski (former Odusoga) as example, since she is one of the more sensible beauty contest winners around. Her father is Nigerian.
Does she see herself as Nigerian despite having 50% Nigerian genome?
No, she says she has no connection with that nation. She has visited the place, but only as older person and has zero cultural or language connection to that nation.
It is just that she has more sense than these “American-Whatevers” to admit that she has no connection. And of course she has benefit of having strong roots in Finnish culture and society.
Jaakko
September 29, 2009
I think Tiwaz has a point here. A Finn is someone who has a deep knowlege of the Finnish culture. And it really doesn’t matter where his/her ancestors lived or what he/she looks like. For instance Pete Parkkonen or Jani Toivola. Neither one looks like a traditional Finn but both of them have been raised by Finnish traditions. They have played ice hockey as a child, eaten peasoup on Thursdays at school, watched Onnenpyörä, Bonanza and Tulosruutu, listened to American and Swedish pop singers, built huts in woods as kids, traveled by ferry to Stockholm, ordered kebab with fries after being in a bar, played Lotto. They know the silent rules of the Finnish society, laugh at Finnish jokes, and so on.
In order to achieve this knowlege you have to know Finnish as a language very well, since the language is the gate into the culture. Of cource Swedish-speaking Finns are also Finns, and in Swedish speaking areas one needs to know Swedish very well to fit in.
Usually second generation immigrants are Finnish. They know the language and its many nuances, they know the silent rules and the collective mindset of the Finnish. They feel Finnish and they are considered as one of ‘us’ by Finns. Even first generation immigrants can be Finns, but many of them aren’t. Fatbardhe Hetemaj is a Finn, she has been living here the most of her life, speaks fluent Finnish and knows the culture and acts like every Finnish woman. I could even call Roman Schatz Finnish. He knows the Finnish society and has written novels in Finnish. You can talk to these two about everything freely without realizing they weren’t born in Finland. Still it’s very hard the completely blend in into a differend culture. Many never make it.
I’m not sure if I could ever really become Egyptian or Japanese or Congolese. It would be easier for me to become Swedish, Estonian or English, because those cultures are closer to mine and the languages are more familiar, but even then it would take decades to really become part of the family.
It is also possible to be born in a country but never really be a part of it. Like some of those Turkish gastarbeiters in Germany. They live among each other, speak Turkish and have only Turkish friends. Many bring wives from Turkey. They watch Turkish satellite channels and can hardly buy milk in German. They are not German.
Karo
September 29, 2009
If american person wants to say that she/he is american-finnish, american-irish, or american-bhutanese, they have every right to do that. You are making sense in this one, it is true that it may be more sensible for themselves to refer themselves only as americans.
If they however choose to say that they are american-finnish there is little we can do exept become insulted, coz we can not and should ay otherwiwe.
Karo
September 29, 2009
I meant should not say otherwise.
Enrique
September 30, 2009
–I have never said foreigners could become Finns, at least without incredible amount of hard work.
Then, what are you inferring?
–What Finnish is there in this American-Finnish? Genome?
I think here is the problem: you create categories, myths to support them in order to exclude other directly and indirectly. You would have thought that if we have been able to advance technolgocially we’d be able to create more open societies that would not be hindered by walls of exclusion and inclusion. I thnk that is key and what is causing a lot of suffering and strife between nations and cultures. Those walls are built for a reason. One of them may be defending economic interests of the group.
Enrique
September 30, 2009
–Does she see herself as Nigerian despite having 50% Nigerian genome?
This brings an interesting topic about hybrid culture. In very general terms, it means being between two cultures when becoming an immigrant. It is the culture you create to adapt to your new environment. Interesting, no?
Tiwaz
September 30, 2009
-”Then, what are you inferring?”
That they can, and must, adjust to society they live in. They can never be Finns like natives, too much old baggage, but they CAN learn the basic rules of living in Finland and interacting in Finnish society.
That alone takes them very far along the way of employment and all the other things you whine immigrants fail to achieve.
-”I think here is the problem: you create categories, myths to support them in order to exclude other directly and indirectly. You would have thought that if we have been able to advance technolgocially we’d be able to create more open societies that would not be hindered by walls of exclusion and inclusion. I thnk that is key and what is causing a lot of suffering and strife between nations and cultures. Those walls are built for a reason. One of them may be defending economic interests of the group.”
Myths. Stop the bullshit. Culture is not myth if you want it to be. Go speak to specialists in university and feel humbled when they beat to your thick skull that culture is very real and very existing thing.
You think rubbish to be honest. That is your problem. You do not take world, study it and then come to logical conclusions through that. It is dishonesty, it is not scientific. It is not logical.
It is same approach which religious nuts use when they try to “scientifically prove” Bible. They take Bible as result and then desperately try to find anything they can justify it with.
They fail in very basic form of scientific principle, start with what you have and deduct result from them. Not start from result and try to find things which you can twist to fit it.
There can be no “open societies” you want. They are against human psyche. We need UNITY, not “open society” which essentially means nothing works because nobody can agree with nobody else on anything.
Key to suffering between nations and cultures is that we have different cultures and different identities. And that is something you have to accept. Cultures do not work well together. They conflict.
It is like different types of strawberries. Polka and Honeysomething. Both are strawberries, but they have very different flavor. You cannot wish or open up away the differences. They are there, you have to accept them and embrace them.
One of the strawberries works in one use, another works in another. They are not same, they can never be same and trying to force them to fulfill same purpose would only create something suboptimal.
Those walls of yours do exist for a reason, they exist to create unity and functional society. Because societies without enough unity, consensus and shared ideals do not work. Like Yugoslavia did not work. Like Somalia does not work. Like Iraq does not work.
Our cultural tradition, values and principles tie us together. Your multiculturalism is like trying to build a ship without using anything to connect the parts of the ship. It might hold together for a moment, but the minute it is exposed to some hardship it falls apart.
Culture keeps us strong, SHARED culture. Not just any cultures.
-”This brings an interesting topic about hybrid culture. In very general terms, it means being between two cultures when becoming an immigrant. It is the culture you create to adapt to your new environment. Interesting, no?”
Well, if you bothered to read the text, Lola does not consider herself to be anything but 100% Finn. Same with Pete Parkkonen Pihtiputtaalta. Who has black, unknown, grandfather. And as far as we know, his dad considers himself 100% Finn as well.
Enrique
September 30, 2009
–That they can, and must, adjust to society they live in. They can never be Finns like natives, too much old baggage, but they CAN learn the basic rules of living in Finland and interacting in Finnish society.
Here, I believe, is the crux of the matter: immigrants come to Finland and Finland does not have any ideas on what to do with them and how to integrate them. It gives tall orders (learn languge and culture rapidly and well while being unemployed and excluded) and on top of that maintains a strong sense of us and them. Another factor that undermines the integration policy is that there is very little input by immigrants, or qualified adult children of immigrants. It is all a system of patronization where we dictate to you what you must do without taking into consideration your thoughts. That is the reason why the present integration method is in trouble.
Enrique
September 30, 2009
–Well, if you bothered to read the text, Lola does not consider herself to be anything but 100% Finn. Same with Pete Parkkonen Pihtiputtaalta. Who has black, unknown, grandfather. And as far as we know, his dad considers himself 100% Finn as well.
I did but I ask you the same question: what is a 100% Finn? What is a 50% Finn, then? Lola says these things because there must be a lot of pressure to do so. Imagine, she lives in a country where she may not want to express her Nigerian side because it would not go down well. That is the history of many minorities in Finland like the Jews. Before it was shameful and it had to be hidden because there was such a strong societal pressure to do so.
Tiwaz
September 30, 2009
-”I did but I ask you the same question: what is a 100% Finn? What is a 50% Finn, then? Lola says these things because there must be a lot of pressure to do so. Imagine, she lives in a country where she may not want to express her Nigerian side because it would not go down well. That is the history of many minorities in Finland like the Jews. Before it was shameful and it had to be hidden because there was such a strong societal pressure to do so.”
What nigerian side she has? She has never set foot on that country in her childhood. You just want to pretend that she connects with her nigerian “heritage” because you cannot accept that she has none.
She first visited Nigeria 2005. Her relatives wanted to know when she would move there! Well, her answer was… Never!
She has no connection there. She was born 1977.
She has never denied or hidden that her father was Nigerian, so your claims of “pressure” are utter rubbish.
-”Here, I believe, is the crux of the matter: immigrants come to Finland and Finland does not have any ideas on what to do with them and how to integrate them. It gives tall orders (learn languge and culture rapidly and well while being unemployed and excluded) and on top of that maintains a strong sense of us and them.”
Well, how about you telling how immigrant is going to do his/her job without speaking local lingo? Through telepathy?
To work, you must communicate, to communicate, you must speak same language. Are you having problems understanding English here Enrique?
You have to learn culture and language because they are prerequisites to actually being able to get anything done. Same way you have to understand how to fly a plane to be able to get it anywhere. Or do you think it is unfair that to become pilot you have to learn, fast and well, all kinds of theoretical and practical things?
That sense of us is what keeps this country functional. If there is no “us”, there is no reason to not be extremely selfish. It is “us” which keeps us paying high taxes so that all our children have equal chance to high education. No “us” and you have shitty society like american or pre-modern one where only wealthy can ever hope to live up to their potential.
“Another factor that undermines the integration policy is that there is very little input by immigrants, or qualified adult children of immigrants. It is all a system of patronization where we dictate to you what you must do without taking into consideration your thoughts. That is the reason why the present integration method is in trouble.”
Gosh… You mean we Finns want to make decisions regarding our ancestral homeland? How HORRIBLE!
I definitely think that MY opinion should weight more than opinion of, I do not know, over 90% of population because I AM IMMIGRANT!
Is that how you think Enrique?
How is permitting to tiny minority right to trample over rights of majority and will of majority progress? It is just solution to bring forth hatred and violence when majority decides they have had enough of oppression of minority.
Accept it, you immigrants are tiny and extremely fractured minority. You could take every immigrant and their children away from Finland tomorrow and you would barely notice anything.
Take away Finns, native Finns, and suddenly whole nation would collapse.
That is why nobody gives a damn if immigrants demand that halal-butchering must be norm, that pork is denied and children must be pierced at age of 2 months.
If immigrants are unable to live here, FUCK OFF! For god’s sake… If it is so horrible go elsewhere to your miracle land where everything is good and rivers flow with milk and honey.
I, and huge majority of Finns, like Finland as it is.
Tiwaz
September 30, 2009
As for uranus, it is quite well named because quality of stuff there is definitely rectal in nature.
Enrique
September 30, 2009
Thank you xyz for sharing the link with us!
Tiwaz
September 30, 2009
Yes, it shows precisely how racist and narrowminded the immigrants are. They do not want to even try to speak Finnish or understand Finnish culture and society.
They all want that things are done like they are “at home”. And for them it is duty of Finns to arrange so that things are like “at home”. Of course none of them bother to think single inch beyond their own nose to wonder how Finland can be just like “at home” to people from dozens of different countries…
Enrique
September 30, 2009
–Well, how about you telling how immigrant is going to do his/her job without speaking local lingo? Through telepathy?
A good question. Look at what happens in countries where immigration is a constant process. You can wait years and use the present method or do it as in countries such as Canada and the United States. If you are a Russian, for example, you can quickly connect with the community through your language and start the integration process. The Russian can even take the deivers license exam in his language and live in Little Russia if he pleases. If he wants to make a living and expand his job prospects, he will have to grow out of his community. In Finland we are doing things the long uncertain way. And on top of that we have people as yourself bitching about how stupid immigrants are because they don’t understand the language or culture.
Tiwaz
September 30, 2009
-”A good question. Look at what happens in countries where immigration is a constant process. You can wait years and use the present method or do it as in countries such as Canada and the United States. If you are a Russian, for example, you can quickly connect with the community through your language and start the integration process. The Russian can even take the deivers license exam in his language and live in Little Russia if he pleases. If he wants to make a living and expand his job prospects, he will have to grow out of his community. In Finland we are doing things the long uncertain way. And on top of that we have people as yourself bitching about how stupid immigrants are because they don’t understand the language or culture.”
And what do societies gain from these “Little Russias”? Crime, defunct system and fractured society.
Such system fails as I have pointed out repeatedly. There is no “us” in such system. So why would anyone give a flying fuck about others if there is no “us”?
Culture is there to create “us” so we have valid reason to help each other and stand up for one another. Without that, we split into little cliques which fight with one another.
That is what is going on in USA, Canada and UK.
Another thing you fail to notice is that when you speak of Canada and USA you speak of countries which are sorely lacking in native culture. They are still trying to form Canadian/American culture. Finnish society and culture date to somewhere after last ice age. Nobody knows WHEN we settled here.
That is completely different from Americas where some European guys went during recorded history and started to wipe out native cultures and languages.
As for me bitching to immigrants. I know Finnish is hard language. I know Finnish culture is so unlike everything else that it will be difficult to learn.
SUCK IT UP! Difficult means more work. Do you think I learned English through magic in 2 hours?
Do you think I will drop my language and culture because some foreign wankers find them difficult? No fucking way.
I bitch because stupid immigrants do not understand that they have to actually WORK to get somewhere. Apparently this concept of working is so difficult for many.
Perhaps we should blame dubbing television/movies and in general pathetic quality of American entertainment which is trend around here.
People who are fed dubbed crap do not figure out that when they leave borders of their nation, they most likely also leave behind their language and culture.
American movies give impression that whole world is “Little America” with funny accent. Must have been shocking for them to run into Passion of Christ and Apocalypto where non-americans did not speak English with weird accent.
Enrique
September 30, 2009
–As for me bitching to immigrants. I know Finnish is hard language. I know Finnish culture is so unlike everything else that it will be difficult to learn.
Do you think that people who are not familiar with Finland and its culture will want to come here. Just keep it up Tiwaz, your attitude is the best wall to keep immigrants from coming and, most importantly, making this country their home.
Tiwaz
September 30, 2009
-”Do you think that people who are not familiar with Finland and its culture will want to come here. Just keep it up Tiwaz, your attitude is the best wall to keep immigrants from coming and, most importantly, making this country their home.”
Clearly they do, since they keep dropping off from planes and then starting to bitch that it is not like home.
My attitude is attitude of someone who is sick and tired of immigrants whining that Finland is not like Whateveristan. Of course it is not! If it was just like some multicultural hellhole it would not be Finland would it?
And if immigrants want to make Finland home, they better learn the language and culture. It will take time, it will be hard. But it can’t be helped. There are no magic shortcuts and immigrants just have to accept it.
As for those immigrants who do not want to adjust to Finnish society, I do not want them to make this country home. I do not want them to be here causing trouble, increasing crime and generally making this country worse place to live in like they have in UK, Canada, USA, Sweden etc.
Jaakko
September 30, 2009
“Finland markets its’ country with the home country of Santa Claus. He was actually born in Turkey…did he also immigrate to Finland?
If Santa Claus is part of the Finnish culture then you should like immigrants…at least Santa brings presents to everybody. If this is not the case then I think Santa is not from Finland or you are not a Finn Tiwaz
”
Santa Claus is an example of good culture exchange. Those traditions traveled through Europe to the cold North, and enriched our traditions. Ancient Finns liked it and made it part of their own culture. So have Finns done with almost everything we see in Finland nowadays.
We have taken music influences from USA, foods like kebab from Turkey, clothing models from Sweden, Lotto from Italia, tortillas from Mexico and so on. We thought they would improve our culture and made them our own. This is the multiculturism that is preferable, because we have taken from different cultures only the things we liked and which functioned with our own culture.
We took tortillas but didn’t take heroin gang wars, Santa Claus but not islam, Lotto but not Omerta or macho culture, pop music but not malfunctioning health care system, clothing styles but not mild temparature bastu.
It was easy to do this because we didn’t take 100 000 Italians just to get to play Lotto, or 200 000 Turkish people because we liked kebab. If we had done so, we would have gotten it all, the good and the bad things.
So just because we like Santa Claus, doesn’t mean we should take all the influences and all the cultures into our society. It is stupid to claim that we can loan from other cultures only by bringing thousands of people from those cultures in. Immigrants should not be considered as one homogenic block. There are immigrants that will benefit our society, and immigrants that won’t. Finland needs foreigners who are willing and capable of to work and integrate, and who bring new good things in and leave bad things behind. Those people Finns have to treat as ones of their own. Finland does not need every possible immigrant there is in the world.
Enrique
September 30, 2009
Thank you xyz for the invitiation. It depends in which neck of the woods you live.
Col
September 30, 2009
Hi e’one
Hyvää keskustelu! I think I may be in a unique position here, as a guy who wants to come to Finland to live and work in the future whilst I also agree with a lot of what Tiwas has said. So I’m potentially an immigrant who would arrive in Helsinki, looking for work or with work arranged in advance. A guy in full agreeance with much of the cultural aspects of Tiwas’ blogging. I couldn’t agree more that anyone going to Finland should make a concerted effort to learn the language as quickly as possible, even beginning before arriving if possible. The main thing I concur with is that the reason immigrants from countries like Somalia find it tough is because of the cultural differences. I fully understand the attitude of some Finns when they see these immigrants walking around, clearly not working, not contributing in a positive way to society, not doing anything, apart from criminality possibly.
I spent some time in Finland last year when I was dating my Finnish ex-girlfriend, one evening we went to fill the car with gasoline. We saw 2 black guys standing at the door of the store, like loitering, they just looked like they were trouble potentially. I could tell my girlfriend was uneasy with them and she paid by card at the pump to avoid having to pass by them. These are the kinds of people that I would object to being in my country, here in the UK there are plenty of them and I’m tired of it too.
So it is with a shoe on each foot that I wish to come to Finland, knowledgable of the quite justifiable feeling towards some immigrants. I am white, have a trade behind me which I’ll trying to use, I’m a graphic designer for a clothing company here. I would only go to a foreign place when I was fully able to support myself, proactively seek work and learn language/culture absolutely. I speak good basic Finnish at this time and learn more every day.
Anyway guys, keep the debate going, interesting stuff!
Col
Tiwaz
October 1, 2009
-”Maybe you should consider that Finnish is not a second language in any other country. You expect immigrants to speak Finnish immediately when they arrive here. How should this work? It takes a few years. Instead of blaming and isolate them you should maybe find ways to support those who are willing to adapt or don’t let them in if there are anyway no jobs”
So? With minor exception of Swedish Finland has no other languages as second language. It should tell the wannabe immigrants SOMETHING if they want to immigrate.
I would not dream of making it big in France without speaking single phrase of French.
And nobody is saying immigrants would have to speak Finnish immediately, it is unrealistic. We are simply telling you and all others that you NEED Finnish to find a job. It is not something you can replace with skill in Urgu. So you cannot learn Finnish immediately, but you cannot find job without Finnish. Problematic situation, yes. But you cannot expect Finns to tear up their whole society and system and remodel it to work in English because some of the immigrants have issues with languages.
As for not letting anyone in. That is the problem with EU etc. People can come in. Again, you see it as duty of Finland to protect idiots from abroad from themselves. Why we Finns have duty to do things which rightfully fall into responsibility of foreigners themselves?
I had job offer from Ireland at one point. I was inclined to accept (notice, I had job lined up before I even thought of moving!) but made certain I studied the situation.
Cost of living vs offered salary, taxes. Language was not that big deal. So forth.
-”Maybe you should better talk to your government to change this promotion video in Finnish (or remove it at all) before blaming immigrants of coming here and not being able adapting to this culture. I lost my motivation to adapt myself here and I am planning to move with my Finnish girlfriend to another country.”
Name a country which DOES run honest advertisement. If people are so stupid they buy one advertisement and never put any effort to learn facts behind the ad… It is again shame on foreigner not Finland.
Internet is filled with information. If you start digging you are bound to find out much about country you plan to move into.
intternetnetsi
October 1, 2009
Did you listen what that video says?
“When you take an intrest on Finland, cool as it is, make sure you’re prepared. Do your research. EU residents are not required to have work permit but they do need a job. Once you find a job everything else will fall in the place.”
And you can count how many times they said skilled.
Tiwaz
October 1, 2009
-”I don’t see myself being fluent in Finnish in the next 2-3 years so why should I stay here? There are better opportunities in other countries and you don’t have to live with the fear all the time how it should continue if you lose your job here.”
And of course these other countries are places where they force the population to speak your language if you happen to be handicapped by moving into country where native language is not your native language.
Col
October 1, 2009
Hi xyz
No, they didn’t discover America but John Morton, son of a Finnish immigrant was the decisive vote-caster of the Declaration of Independence! Anyway, sorry to hear that your experience of living in Finland wasn’t the best. I know that when I arrive there, I won’t give up as easy, I’ll make every effort to succeed and I’ll perhaps try harder than you to learn the language. A man can achieve ANYTHING he wants if he REALLY wants something. Mies voi saavuttaa mikään jos hän haluaa todella. Your experience was tough perhaps because of language, ethnicity and maybe lack of skills/jobs. Did you try, try and try again? Your girlfriend may leave with you to live abroad but it’s generally true that Finnish women are reluctant to leave their homeland when they’re involved with a foreign partner.
Hey you seemed to infer that learning to speak fluent Finnish was not possible before arriving in Finland, I’ve taken lessons here in the UK in several areas and have built up good basic Finnish speaking/writing/understanding speech. Again it’s all about the will to succeed, maybe your desire has dwindled dude.
Good luck to you in the future and never give up.
Col
Tiwaz
October 2, 2009
-”I don’t force anybody to speak a language. For some jobs there is just no need to speak fluent Finnish and they still require it. Just forget it. I won’t come back to Finland again. You guys can do whatever you want here.”
And which jobs would be those?
Anything with customer contact is 100% fluent Finnish. People are going to be quite unhappy if you cannot grasp what they want.
Low end menial jobs mean you have to use Finnish constantly with your colleagues who do not represent the most educated portion of Finnish population. And thus one with least language skills.
High level jobs without customer contact require skills, skills and lots of skills. That is where competition gets brutal. If your skills are not up to task, your papers not in order. You fail. There are half a dozen native applicants who have their papers in order etc.
-”Yeah and where do you want to learn to speak fluent Finnish? Outside of Finland? You are dreaming…”
And this is problem for Finns how?
It is YOUR problem. YOU sort it out. What is it with you foreigners and your attitude that everything must be carried to you on silver platter so you do not have to lift your ass a single inch?
Tiwaz
October 2, 2009
-”yeah, but it seems that you guys have almost only jobs with customer contacts (and all of them are only in Finland).”
Because foreigners who want to buy stuff from us want our salespersons to come visit them.
That, in turn, is usually too important job to be given to just anyone so it is reserved for guys with most experience under their belt.
“The other problem is that they are all overeducated here. They all run to the Uni in order to avoid unemployment or working at the checkout. And if you finally get into a company you can’t progress because the company hierarchy is so small.”
Small country cannot have huge amount of huge corporations. And only way for small country to compete on global scale is through as skilled workforce as possible. Specially if surroundings force high expenses of living.
Tiwaz
October 2, 2009
-”-And they are more fluent in this language then a native speaker of this country?”
They have more experience and knowledge on product.
And what makes you think there is native speaker around?
You being native speaker does not make you great salesperson.
Col
October 2, 2009
Hey xyz
I had a Finnish girlfriend last year and until the beginning of this year, we split mainly because I couldn’t find a good job there and she got fed up waiting. How did you meet yours and what do you think of Finnish women and how they behave in general?
Col
Enrique
October 4, 2009
xyz, I agree somewhat with Col: you should not give up but sometimes there are easier roads to take in life. If you are a multicultural marriage, living in a neutral country (not being that of either’s parter) may not be such a bad idea. If you have a kid(s) later on, that’ll mean that the child will grow up in three cultures. As long as other people see it as natural and a positive matter, the kid will grow up to be a lion when he becomes an adult. Moving about and building new homes in one’s lifetime is a natural matter that helps you grow and develop.
Enrique
October 4, 2009
xyz, it would be interesting to get some statistics on what kinds of jobs immigrants stand a good chance of getting. Even if you get a job, getting something permanent can be difficult. The difficulties of getting a job in Finland are a problem that many immigrants face. With national unemployment among immigrants averaging over 20% it is not surprising. This latter figure is most likely much higher taking into account that those in state-sponsored training programs are not counted as unemployed.
Enrique
October 4, 2009
–It is YOUR problem. YOU sort it out. What is it with you foreigners and your attitude that everything must be carried to you on silver platter so you do not have to lift your ass a single inch?
I am sometimes a bit surprised by Tiwaz’ comments. In the first place, Finland is a Nordic, welfare society. That suggests certain liberal ideals on a person’s role in society. Of course, this is theoretical but it does work in practice when Kela steps in and assists you financially.
It would be interesting to hear what kind of a society Finland should be like? Should we do away with the welfare state?
Enrique
October 4, 2009
–I do not blame Finland but I think this language is not for me. As it is a requirement here in order to get a job I am leaving. So we don’t need to discuss about it anymore. There are other options in other countries for me as well. Easy, isn’t it?
What you are expressing, xyz, is some healthy reasoning. It all depends on you and if you have the opportunity to search elsewhere and build a future. What is a home? A place where one finds a little happiness and future.
Enrique
October 4, 2009
–Conclusion: bye bye.
That depends entirely on you. Remember, one person can make you an offer that can change your life. I have said before that one does not need the acceptance of a whole society to live a meaningful life. Only a few good people/mentors and/or employer who believes in you can change your life. It really comes down to that, xyz.
Enrique
October 4, 2009
–Maybe an interesting article to read:
http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2009/10/finlands_foreigners_in_the_downturn_1051685.html?origin=rss
xyz, thank you for sharing this. It is pretty interesting that nowhere in the article does it mention what the unemployment rate is in Finland. The problem is not only due to skills, but the fact that there are still too few immigrants living in Finland with little political power. Most politicians would not care less since they represent so few votes. Another big reason is that due to the small immigrant community, there are still too few companies serving these people. There aren’t a huge amount of foreign companies like in the UK, which could employ immigrants. In short, there is very little input by foreigners. Finns decide from their own vantage/interest point of view what is good for the foreign community. As long as you have these elements, very little will change.
Tiwaz
October 5, 2009
-”Well if I have to sell their products in my home country then maybe yes. Same with your Finnish customers who prefer Finnish behaviour and Finnish language.”
Except those Finnish guys are ones who know how to sell. Do you think that hotshot foreign salesmen are unemployed in Finland? No, they do just what you think they would do. Handle foreign cases.
But not all, hell, not even majority, of foreigners are talented salesmen. It requires more than ability to speak language to be salesman. Apparently you have never dealt with anything like that in you life. Let me tell you, it requires great deal of skill. No skill, no use for language.
-”I am sometimes a bit surprised by Tiwaz’ comments. In the first place, Finland is a Nordic, welfare society. That suggests certain liberal ideals on a person’s role in society. Of course, this is theoretical but it does work in practice when Kela steps in and assists you financially.
It would be interesting to hear what kind of a society Finland should be like? Should we do away with the welfare state?”
No, I like our welfare state. But I do NOT support “we do everything for poor foreigners”-state.
What YOU have not grasped is what Finns tend to consider self-evident. Rights NEVER come without RESPONSIBILITIES.
To have RIGHT to welfare, you have RESPONSIBILITY to handle your own bureaucratic mess.
When you are granted RIGHT to move to Finland, there is RESPONSIBILITY for you to learn and adjust to Finland to make yourself productive member of society.
And so forth. Never have there been society which works and where rights do not go hand in hand with responsibilities.
xyz here wanted his rights but did not want the ugly part of responsibilities. So he did the reasonable thing and leaves.
-”xyz, thank you for sharing this. It is pretty interesting that nowhere in the article does it mention what the unemployment rate is in Finland. The problem is not only due to skills, but the fact that there are still too few immigrants living in Finland with little political power. Most politicians would not care less since they represent so few votes. Another big reason is that due to the small immigrant community, there are still too few companies serving these people. There aren’t a huge amount of foreign companies like in the UK, which could employ immigrants. In short, there is very little input by foreigners. Finns decide from their own vantage/interest point of view what is good for the foreign community. As long as you have these elements, very little will change.”
GOD FORBID THAT FINNS SHOULD MAKE THE CALLS REGARDING THEIR NATIVE COUNTRY!
I am very happy foreigners are not listened to. Because we see with UK how fucked up everything ends up when you start appeasing demands of half a dozen or more foreign cultures each demanding that THEIR way must take preference over all others.
alien
October 5, 2009
-–I do not blame Finland but I think this language is not for me. As it is a requirement here in order to get a job I am leaving. So we don’t need to discuss about it anymore. There are other options in other countries for me as well. Easy, isn’t it?
-What you are expressing, xyz, is some healthy reasoning. It all depends on you and if you have the opportunity to search elsewhere and build a future. What is a home? A place where one finds a little happiness and future.
Yes, that is the best solution. Leave Finland. There will be some day in the future that Finns lines up to wax and shine your balls to get you in their country.
The new statistic came out last week shows that half of the children born since 90′s onward in developed countries, can live over a century. it means the share of the working group will be even narrower in the future in Finland too. That is some thing less than 20% who shall pay for the children and pensioners. I will not be surprised if Finland import some dudes from Middle east and Africa in the future to some how keep his population above 5 million. That would be a nice day to see the face of some of the Finns in this blog, when they have to host couple of black dudes to keep up with their patriotic duties with the hope that suomen kilei will not vanish.
Tiwaz
October 6, 2009
-”How do you know that the majority of foreigners do not have Sales skills? Can you show me some reliable statistics?”
Because most humans do not have Sales skills at level where they would have to be in order for them to be hotshot salesmen sent abroad.
-”Hmm, there are immigrants here who come from other welfare states. I am definitely not here because of the money. Salaries are lower here than where I come from.”
You forget the “we do everything for foreigners”-part.
Essentially I spoke also of those immigrants you mentioned who, as someone likes to say, assume their ass is gilt. And thus expect that they do not have to lift a finger to have everything sorted out for them.
You apparently belong to this group, as you do not feel like doing any work to get anywhere.
In essence, you are worthless as immigrant in every society which requires adjustment, limiting you to very few places where you can actually function.
Alien, you forgot that people also live longer and healthier life, thus working for longer time. Essentially making your prophesy wishful thinking.
Finland will keep going strong without importing useless dead weight from underdeveloped corners of the world.
Tiwaz
October 6, 2009
-”What does this have to do if they are Finnish or not? Do you think foreigners do not have any sales skills? Show me some figures and prove it.”
Show me that 100% of people from country X are top-salesmen.
Apparently this is difficult concept for you…
Only very skilled and/or experienced salesmen tend to be sent to big customers abroad. It is wasteful to send some new guy without experience to sell your stuff to IBM.
Very few immigrants are such salesmen, because there is no nation in the world where 100% of population are made up of such people.
Some will be, but they are ones who have no issues in being hired.
-”Another statement which you can’t prove.”
Actually proven by your own statements. You yourself said that you do not feel like learning the language.
-”Did you ever see a doctor?”
How about you seeing one for spine transplant… Maybe after that you would have backbone to lean on to learn new languages to make you useful part of societies which do not operate on your preferred language.
-”You forget that not every immigrant comes from an underdeveloped corner. And even if they come from there I don’t believe that none of them want to work.”
Except Alien speaks fondly of Africa and Middle East which represent some of the most backwards parts of this planet.
And if they want to work but like you are too stuck up to work to learn the language etc they are worthless waste of space.
alien
October 6, 2009
- Alien, you forgot that people also live longer and healthier life, thus working for longer time. Essentially making your prophesy wishful thinking.
You are right. This is another option that you Finn work your ass off until 95 years of age. However I doubt if the majority of Finns agree with you. Besides, what quality work you may offer when you hardly can walk if not on wheelchair and a dipher in the back trunk? But again is up to you. we swedes intend to enjoy our retirement some where hot and nice. You can work if u want!
alien
October 6, 2009
- Except Alien speaks fondly of Africa and Middle East which represent some of the most backwards parts of this planet.
Well, I speak fondly, first because my roots is Iranian which is in middle east. and I admit I am fond of myself.
Second, At least there is some one who is fond of some people which may not have sympathy of you according to yourself.
Third, I also agree with you, there are so many backward thoughts coming from that area. however, this does not justify to compromise individual rights. when we are talking about immigrants, we should consider them case by case and based in their deeds which affect the society. If Middle east has a lot of problems, does it mean that an immigrant from ME should forget about his rights as an individual just because he is from there? I guess not. Countries constitution, or quite many that I have read, have not segregated the people based on their ethnic roots. All of them says that people are equal in front of law.
Cheers
Tiwaz
October 7, 2009
-”I didn’t say 100%. Your posting sounded like foreigners are not able to sell something. So I want to have a provement for this…”
And I told you that there will be few who are hotshot salesmen, but they are NOT ones who whine they can’t find a job. Huge majority of them are average at best as either they have no talent or they have educated themselves for something else.
-”What if they die? Then you will run out of Salesmen?
You think foreigners are not intelligent enough to learn about a product?”
How will foreigners make themselves useful to company before they learn enough? They can’t sell to Finns, they have no skills or knowledge to be so good that they could be sent to sell to big foreign clients… Should companies hire such useless expenditure or hire Finn who can sell to Finns, learn the process and then be good enough to be sent abroad? Constantly pulling his weight in corporation…
-”As I said there is no need for some jobs to learn the language. Some people can just not think that far especially if they have never worked abroad…”
And do you think those jobs are plentiful like sand on the beach? They are few and far between, and competition is fierce. You can’t just expect that such job is handed to you because you are foreigner. You have to compete against OTHER foreigners and FINNS to get that job. If you have no skills to shine above rest, it is your failure again. You did not have skills.
-”If Middle east has a lot of problems, does it mean that an immigrant from ME should forget about his rights as an individual just because he is from there?”
You fall to same hole as Enrique.
IMMIGRATION TO FINLAND IS PRIVILEGE, NOT RIGHT.
If Middle East and Africa produces huge amount of troublemakers and immigrants who refuse to let go of their backwards culture when immigrating, it is our duty to stop the movement to preserve OUR nation from becoming same kind of shithole which those Middle Eastern nations are.
IF we keep letting them in, we just turn portions of our nation and society into mini carbon copies of those countries resulting in crime and conflict.
It should be duty of immigrant to prove that they are above their countrymen, not for us to prove they are not.
WE are ones who have something they want, stable, safe and working society. THEY are the beggars.
alien
October 7, 2009
- IMMIGRATION TO FINLAND IS PRIVILEGE, NOT RIGHT.
a
No, a part of immigration when it comes to refugee, is a duty and duty period. That became Finland’s duty when they signed 1951 Geneva convention. If a nation or government sign some treaty or convention, that would be a duty that must be done. So there if there is a privilege, it is for both sides. However it is still up to you, if you want to see it a one-way road, the people like me get education, work experience, and they say good bye. Just the way I did. SO what you are suggesting is like I took advantage of you. So do you want to convey this notion that you are done or banged or violated? It is all up to you!
-If Middle East and Africa produces huge amount of troublemakers and immigrants who refuse to let go of their backwards culture when immigrating, it is our duty to stop the movement to preserve OUR nation from becoming same kind of shithole which those Middle Eastern nations are.
I would not go down to that level that you are and insult a nation or nations. but I would honestly recommend you to see a therapist or enrol for a mental institution or take your pills If you have not. Because this mush hate make you some day to put a gun into your filthy mouth and end your miserable life. Why is so? it is because you are not man enough to let this hate out. Like saying these things to a Middle eastern face. You just have to see them and go away and this complex would act as a monster that eat u up from inside. SO if you really see what I am saying, I am helping you. Don’t get upset with me and don take it personal.
Tiwaz
October 8, 2009
-”learn the history of those countries in the middle east and get some work experience with foreigners. Then we can talk again.”
I know history of those countries. They had their time in the sun, but then they forgot to go with times. Middle East is desperately trying to live in Middle Ages and rest of the world has left them behind.
Their past glories are irrelevant if they have not managed to keep their society and nations functional and vibrant today.
You cannot live in past.
-”No, a part of immigration when it comes to refugee, is a duty and duty period. That became Finland’s duty when they signed 1951 Geneva convention. If a nation or government sign some treaty or convention, that would be a duty that must be done. So there if there is a privilege, it is for both sides. However it is still up to you, if you want to see it a one-way road, the people like me get education, work experience, and they say good bye. Just the way I did. SO what you are suggesting is like I took advantage of you. So do you want to convey this notion that you are done or banged or violated? It is all up to you!”
Refugees we speak of are products of failed societies. So they should understand better than anyone that they are privileged to be admitted away from their failed homeland and NOT try to import that failure to their new home.
Somalians would be wise to learn this. Their homeland is one of the worst hellholes on this planet. Yet they cling to failed cultural ways which LED to this situation even when moved to Finland.
As for people like you. If price for keeping people like in in Finland is appeasement by yielding our cultural norms, all I can say is bon voyage. And do not let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.
-”I would not go down to that level that you are and insult a nation or nations. but I would honestly recommend you to see a therapist or enrol for a mental institution or take your pills If you have not. Because this mush hate make you some day to put a gun into your filthy mouth and end your miserable life. Why is so? it is because you are not man enough to let this hate out. Like saying these things to a Middle eastern face. You just have to see them and go away and this complex would act as a monster that eat u up from inside. SO if you really see what I am saying, I am helping you. Don’t get upset with me and don take it personal.”
Actually, you are very wrong. But I understand that you fail to see failure of Middle Eastern culture since it is so close to you.
It IS a failure. EVERYWHERE in Europe statistics show that people of Middle Eastern origin are DISPROPORTIONATELY represented in crime statistics. Specially rape statistics.
This is not imagination, it is fact. And you cannot explain it away by saying it is individual issue. You do not get such huge disproportional crime rates with some individuals being to fault.
Fault lies deeper, in the culture and way of life of that society. Society might actually be reasonably functional in it’s own country, but when introduced elsewhere where such medieval ways have been left behind… It becomes problem.
So we can say that they as group are the problem. So they have to be handled as group.
We have seen that this group fails to integrate into society they are permitted into, so our only valid option is to radically reduce amount of representatives of this group we permit into our nation and screw political correctness.
Our duty is to stability, unity and safety of our own nation. IF ME people feel insulted, they should get mirror and look into it. Because there is the source of problems.
You too, alien, should look in the mirror. Because from that mirror looks face which has caused most of your problems.
alien
October 8, 2009
- As for people like you. If price for keeping people like in in Finland is appeasement by yielding our cultural norms, all I can say is bon voyage. And do not let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.
Well, believe me or not, I had never tried to change any thing in your country. When it came to cultural norms, I could not care less. When I was there, I was attitude proof. I did not even tried to correct your points of view about any thing. I could not care less about how Finns or any one think about me and I did not explain myself to any one. So I guess you are truly paranoid that think we have come to change your society. May be you already know that and playing merely dumb. I am saying that because all an immigrant want is to be treated equally against the law like a Finn. But you obviously do not recognize such a right for immigrants. You think since they are privileged to come into your country, so they should bare however they are treated. This is how it shows that you are actually racist and discriminative but hiding behind “change our culture” crap.
And again about privilege or duty. It seems to me you must be a really dumb system and nation, who is not bound to bring refugees from as you say “shithole” countries and yet import them. This does not make sense, if you knowingly create problems for yourself. The only thing that explain that is ; that this is your DUTY and you should do it well.
Immigrants (in general)are not in Finland or any where to get appeased. They just want to be equal in front of law. In Finland system does not treat immigrants equally in front of law. The system think exactly as you do, but would not dare to speak about it as you do in here. Why, because they know that is barbaric to have in the back of their head that people should be treated based on their ethnic background.
One thing I agree with you, is that we immigrants such as myself should have never come there. I would never recommend to any one of my friend to come into your country. And I keep saying that leave Finland if you can. The life has a lot more to offer you than spending your time in Finland. Any one who is anyone soon or later will leave your country. The remaining are the most helpless immigrants who sadly cannot take care of themselves and therefore should bare your nasty look and receive subsidiary allowances. Again don’t blame immigrants, blame yourself who treated us unjustly and let us go with knowledge, and work experience.
Tiwaz
October 8, 2009
-”Well, believe me or not, I had never tried to change any thing in your country. When it came to cultural norms, I could not care less. When I was there, I was attitude proof. I did not even tried to correct your points of view about any thing. I could not care less about how Finns or any one think about me and I did not explain myself to any one. So I guess you are truly paranoid that think we have come to change your society.”
So you did what you wanted to do and did not give a crap if your actions were against established moral code present in nation? No wonder you did so well. Did you ever try to act in a way that would NOT be offensive to Finnish moral code?
-”May be you already know that and playing merely dumb. I am saying that because all an immigrant want is to be treated equally against the law like a Finn.”
I think you genuinely ARE dumb. Do you have ANY proof that you were treated in any way differently than Finn? That is, Finn who fails to grasp how things are done.
Most likely you in your arrogance acted as you would in Iran or whatever hellhole you originated from. Never grasping that things are done differently here and how YOU try to do stuff is… Wrong!
-”And again about privilege or duty. It seems to me you must be a really dumb system and nation, who is not bound to bring refugees from as you say “shithole” countries and yet import them. This does not make sense, if you knowingly create problems for yourself. The only thing that explain that is ; that this is your DUTY and you should do it well.”
I would support cutting all the excessive foreign aid in favor of fixing issues in Finland. And again, I pointed out that those refugees should understand better than try to carry out the cultural traditions of failed country which are in conflict with Finnish way of life.
-”Immigrants (in general)are not in Finland or any where to get appeased. They just want to be equal in front of law. In Finland system does not treat immigrants equally in front of law. The system think exactly as you do, but would not dare to speak about it as you do in here. Why, because they know that is barbaric to have in the back of their head that people should be treated based on their ethnic background.”
Immigrants are treated equally, they are just too stupid to grasp that things work DIFFERENT here.
Is it treating immigrant inequally if police arrests them for attempting bribery and that was the way things work in their native country? No.
Is it inequal if immigrants, just like FINNS, are expected to handle their bureaucratic crap in right order, in right place with right papers? Perhaps in your country system works differently, here they work like this.
-”Again don’t blame immigrants, blame yourself who treated us unjustly and let us go with knowledge, and work experience.”
Blame is where it belongs, on immigrants who are too stupid or arrogant to figure out that things work differently in different country. You are prime example, it is clear that you never even TRIED to understand how Finnish system works. You most likely just wanted to do everything as if you were still in Iran.
So who is to blame in such situation?
alien
October 9, 2009
- I think you genuinely ARE dumb. Do you have ANY proof that you were treated in any way differently than Finn? That is, Finn who fails to grasp how things are done.
I have convicted as a threat to Finland national security and public order without showing one reason while even the Finnish constitution states that one must be given a reasoned decision regarding a judiciary conviction! Supo also claimed my job based on this un-reasoned decision. If you want to know more about this check HS online. You will find even some Finns were amazed on how one can be convicted without a reason.
- Is it inequal if immigrants, just like FINNS, are expected to handle their bureaucratic crap in right order, in right place with right papers? Perhaps in your country system works differently, here they work like this.
I have no problem to handle mu duties. I am doing that i a country which is equally bureaucratic like Finland. What is unjust is that to be convicted and deprived from your rights without a reason. The reason according to your own laws should be given to the convicted.
- Blame is where it belongs, on immigrants who are too stupid or arrogant to figure out that things work differently in different country. You are prime example, it is clear that you never even TRIED to understand how Finnish system works. You most likely just wanted to do everything as if you were still in Iran.
The immigrants that I see in this blog are all with couple of degrees. If we are stupid then is clear how you and Finland looks upon other immigrants who like many Finns have not proper education.This to me explains deeply how racist and discriminative you are.
Melissa J
October 11, 2009
I am from America, and I was an exchange student at the University of Helsinki last year. I like a lot of things about Finland, but I agree with what a lot of people above had said: Finns have more xenophobic tendancies than the people in most other western countries. I don’t know how Finns can deny this…it’s so obvious to anyone who comes from a cosmopolitan Western city. And the stories are similar: Finns won’t hire foreigners no matter how talented (except to clean up the streets after the drunkards piss everywhere). Even in the most backward parts of the American rural south you won’t hear the kinds of racist jokes Finns carelessly throw around. And I am talking about in Helsinki — the nations capital!!! And somehow Finns seem to feel justified in their behavior, as if they live in some bubble immune from human decency. Part of the problem is that Finns seem to have low self-esteem (especially the men…but they sure are good looking!!!). The other part is they don’t debate so well. Unlike British and American universities which encourage critical thinking and debate, Finns are trained to follow orders. It’s really wierd! Finnish-Swedes and Swedish people are in general much more successful in practically every field because they can debate and think critically. Finns aren’t stupid, they are just trapped in backward cultural norms. Perhaps Finnish elementary and high schools are good (I always hear them talking about that), but their higher level education system seems to need some work — especially the humanities — because Finns are very poor debaters. The result is that Finns absolutely cannot handle criticism of any kind and they seriously lack critical thinking skills. So here’s some advice to foreigners going to Finland: don’t stay long (’cause they don’t want you) and don’t say anything critical about Finland (’cause they can’t take it and will just get pissed off and puke on you when they’re drunk). If you have to stay in Finland, try to get involved in some kind of the activity that involves international people or ideas. Finland is a great place to visit, and they are nice to visiters. If you want to stay, they will turn cold. This is why the country experiences brain drain: smart and mobile people won’t put up with their 18th century mindset. Sweden, Norway, England, America etc. really attract foreign talent, and a lot intellectuals go to such places. Why would any highly skilled person move to Finland? To get paid 8 euros an hour to clean up after drunkards?
Enrique
October 11, 2009
Hi Melissa J, and welcome to Migrant Tales. This is very interesting what you point out. Some Finns still have a backward view of people that are different from them. The fact that this is not the first choice of qualified people, it is a great loss for Finland that so few even want to move here. Think of it, some are already sounding the alarm because more refugees are coming to Finland. I, particularly, remember when the first Somalis came from Russia in the early 1990s and the papers wrote front-page stories about how the country was being “invaded” by Somalis. We were talking about a few hundred people.
On the other hand, there are a lot of good people who do not have these types of hangups about people who are different from them. They understand that even though immigration has its challenges, it is basically a positive matter — not a threat on society.
Tiwaz
October 12, 2009
-”I have convicted as a threat to Finland national security and public order without showing one reason while even the Finnish constitution states that one must be given a reasoned decision regarding a judiciary conviction! Supo also claimed my job based on this un-reasoned decision. If you want to know more about this check HS online. You will find even some Finns were amazed on how one can be convicted without a reason.”
Can you prove that you were convicted without a reason or were you convicted based on reasons which were secret due to agreements with foreign intelligence agencies?
We only have your side of the tale here. And somehow, if you had questionable connections, I doubt you would be declaring them here.
-”I have no problem to handle mu duties. I am doing that i a country which is equally bureaucratic like Finland. What is unjust is that to be convicted and deprived from your rights without a reason. The reason according to your own laws should be given to the convicted.”
You were given reason. You were considered threat to security. Most likely with information which was classified.
Tell me alien, do you have connections to people with questionable background?
-”The immigrants that I see in this blog are all with couple of degrees. If we are stupid then is clear how you and Finland looks upon other immigrants who like many Finns have not proper education.This to me explains deeply how racist and discriminative you are.”
Degree itself is worthless. What good is doctor for example who cannot communicate with patient?
Guess?
If you are forced to use pidgin or improvised sign language to communicate, you are worthless in most duties.
THAT is the issue with idiot immigrants. They never figure out that communication is huge part of nearly every job in Finland.
-”Why would any highly skilled person move to Finland? To get paid 8 euros an hour to clean up after drunkards?”
Do you have skills to do anything else? Can you communicate with Finns in THEIR level?
You Melissa exhibit the common trait of immigrants. You try to pretend you never left home. You never bothered to understand that different cultures work in different ways.
You try to impose your wrong ways upon society with right ways instead of learning what is good and proper.
For example, let’s take this debate issue. Yes, Finnish schools do not tend to debate.
We use facts.
This might be confusing for you, but there really cannot be much debate when handling facts. They either are or aren’t. If they aren’t, you have to present facts proving that. You can actually see this in this blog here. Enrique represents what you want to see. He uses lots of words, paints pretty pictures.
But he never presents facts to back them up. No statistics. Nothing to give weight to his statement.
That is also why there are very few philosophers coming from Finland. All they can produce is idle banter which can be amusing but will not keep you warm during winter.
And extremely good engineers, who let facts do the talking.
-”Finns aren’t stupid, they are just trapped in backward cultural norms.”
Or, perhaps you are being stupid by not understanding that your cultural norms are not any more “correct”. In fact, your cultural norms are extremely backwards and out of date.
It is sadly common state in specially Americans, because they tend to lack the understanding that world is not America. And America is not the world.
Enrique
October 12, 2009
–Can you prove that you were convicted without a reason or were you convicted based on reasons which were secret due to agreements with foreign intelligence agencies?
Tiwaz, one of the most important things we must know about our society that a person is innocent before proven guilty. Under the Bush regime things were turned around: you are guilty until proven innocent. Why would Supo operate differently from the CIA?
–Or, perhaps you are being stupid by not understanding that your cultural norms are not any more “correct”. In fact, your cultural norms are extremely backwards and out of date.
Explain to me, Tiwaz, how the technologically advanced West still has issues (like the rest of the world) about people who are different? That is something I cannot get over. We are SO advanced but when it comes to human relations we slip back many eons in time.
Enrique
October 12, 2009
–Enrique represents what you want to see. He uses lots of words, paints pretty pictures.
LOL.
Tiwaz
October 12, 2009
-”Tiwaz, one of the most important things we must know about our society that a person is innocent before proven guilty. Under the Bush regime things were turned around: you are guilty until proven innocent. Why would Supo operate differently from the CIA?”
Because SUPO is not CIA. And in case you have not noticed, this is Finland not USA. What Bushy did in his country is irrelevant to us.
While evidence may not have been presented to alien, SUPO cannot just do things without going to court with evidence. Court in turn is required NOT to reveal classified information but may use it in it’s ruling.
This is there to ensure that we do get classified information from other nations which are essential to our security. They will NOT reveal sensitive information which can endanger their intelligence agents or methods if they do not have absolute guarantee that this information is not leaked out.
-”Explain to me, Tiwaz, how the technologically advanced West still has issues (like the rest of the world) about people who are different? That is something I cannot get over. We are SO advanced but when it comes to human relations we slip back many eons in time.”
Because technology has nothing to do with culture.
Culture is about forming a functional, unified society. Because history has proven through trial and error that only society which has long term viability is one that is unified.
And shared culture is best solution for gluing people together into cohesive society.
You cannot “technologize” cohesion into society which is culturally divided.
alien
October 12, 2009
- Can you prove that you were convicted without a reason or were you convicted based on reasons which were secret due to agreements with foreign intelligence agencies?
Yes the prove is that they did not give me any reason. If there was any reason, they should have let me know by law.
No agreement with any secret service shall overrule Finland’s fundamental laws and regulations. This is against the rights of the citizens and residents in the country. Besides they never said or claimed that I have had any thing to do with other countries that secret services be involved. Is this your guess or a fact that secret services are to do with my case? In the following you will see that the Administration Judicial Procedure Act shall be applied in my case not the agreement between secret services.
Administrative Judicial Procedure Act
(586/1996; AMENDMENTS UP TO 435/2003 INCLUDED)
PART I — GENERAL PROVISIONS
Chapter 1 — Scope and precedence
Section 1 — Scope
(1) This Act shall apply to judicial procedure in general administrative courts.
(2) This Act shall also apply where an administrative decision is challenged by way of appeal or extraordinary appeal in an administrative authority, an appellate board or
another comparable special authority.
- You were given reason. You were considered threat to security. Most likely with information which was classified.
What is the reason that I am considered a threat? The “threat” is what I am convicted to, not the reason why I am convicted to! Please look at the Act regarding a healthy exercise of law which must be practised in Finland:
Administrative Judicial Procedure Act
(586/1996; AMENDMENTS UP TO 435/2003 INCLUDED)
Section 54 — Contents of the decision
(1) The decision shall contain:
(1) …
(2) …
(3) …
(4) an account of the claims of the parties and, to the extent necessary, the grounds on which they are based;
(5) to the extent necessary, an account of the evidence given in the matter;
(6) a statement of reasons and the final resolution; and
(7) …
And besides that the Finnish courts also emphasizes that I must be given a reasoned decision. This is a rule of thumbs regarding human rights:
Helsinki Sanomat:
Courts say immigration officials give too much weight to statements by Security Police
….
….
According to the courts, the Directorate of Immigration cannot reject a foreigner’s application simply because the Security Police feels that the person is a threat to national security.
The courts found that the decisions should also explain the reasons why SUPO and the Directorate feel that the applicant is a danger, and ordered reconsideration of the cases.
….
Here is the link:
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Courts+say+immigration+officials+give+too+much+weight+to+statements+by+Security+Police/1135225456158
The matter is so clear that Supo run his decision by use of Threat:
HS:
Security Police threaten to stop giving statements on foreigners
…
The warning is contained in a document acquired by Helsingin Sanomat, which was sent by SUPO to the Supreme Administrative Court in April.
The aim of the statements on foreigners is primarily to help officials – mainly at the Directorate of Immigration – to prevent terrorists, spies, and other potentially dangerous individuals from entering the country.
…
As you see not only there is no reason for my conviction, but also I am not in the scope of the Supo’s pupose because I am already in the country. I was given a permanent resident permit on April 1997.
So this story from head to toe shows that immigrants are not dealt with the law, but personal opinion and tastes. This is what is wrong in your country, otherwise we have no intention to change your culture, but it would be reasonable to ask you to treat us according to your laws. Wouldn’t?
- Tell me alien, do you have connections to people with questionable background?
No Tiwaz. Even Supo does not claim so. If that would be the case Supo should have disclose it like in the case of Naeemi from Pakistan, it was clearly mentioned that he is in relationship with JKLF. As in the quote:
“I say that I am a member of JKLF, even my party chairman from England, and our office, from Brussels everywhere they wrote letters to the Government of Finland, that Naeemi is just a member of our organisation and our organisation is totally political organisation, it has nothing to do with any kind of Islamic or any kind of , this is just a world wide organisation and is based in England and UK and we are just working for independent state of Kashmir politically there, this was the letter.”
If Supo had any evidence that I am related with some where, they could present it, but they did not.
- Degree itself is worthless. What good is doctor for example who cannot communicate with patient?
Do you think learning languages is more difficult or having a degree from Otaniemi? or equivalent universities? It is obvious if some one has got a degree in medicine he can learn the language much faster. besides, most of us have studied here and know the language.
-Tiwaz, one of the most important things we must know about our society that a person is innocent before proven guilty. Under the Bush regime things were turned around: you are guilty until proven innocent. Why would Supo operate differently from the CIA?
–- Or, perhaps you are being stupid by not understanding that your cultural norms are not any more “correct”. In fact, your cultural norms are extremely backwards and out of date.
A person is innocent before proven guilty is part of general human rights recognized and ratified by the charter of human rights which is signed by Finland as well.This is not a cultural norm. It is for all the human beings in the world.
- While evidence may not have been presented to alien, SUPO cannot just do things without going to court with evidence. Court in turn is required NOT to reveal classified information but may use it in it’s ruling.
Finland rules about this is clear. One must be given the reasons. Giving reasons why Mr x is a bad guy, would not compromise any laws or agreements. Revealing the evidence might, in which case also no one can be convicted without any evidence. but in my case no reason is presented. Not what so ever. Now I am asking Finns themselves, how they feel if they are treated like me. To be convicted of some thing in such a big calibre without having a reason. Do you see why we think your system is based on injustice toward immigrants?
Tiwaz, with a little bit of concious you would see how unfair Finland is toward some immigrants and would not link it any more to the language skills.
Melissa J
October 12, 2009
Enrique and Tiwaz, thanks for your comments. Tiwaz, I am not an immigrant; I was an exchange student at the University of Helsinki last year, and now I am back in the states. Anyway, I stand by what I said above.
You suggested, Tiwaz, that debate and communication skills are unimportant. There’s no doubt in my mind that the lack of debate and communication skills among Finns has had some very negative consequences. Just one example: over the past 15 years, the European Court of Human Rights has slapped Finland with more judgments than all the other Nordic countries combined!!! Wow! And many of these judgements deal with freedom of speech.
http://www.yle.fi/uutiset/news/2009/05/finland_collects_human_rights_court_judgments_717531.html
My other point was that Finns exhibit more xenophobic and backward tendancies when compared with the people of other Western countries (I have spent considerable time in various European countries, including Norway and Sweden). I found both the Norweigians and the Swedes to be better debaters, better communicators, and more open to foreign ideas. That’s why talented people from all over the world go there. Finland does not attract much foreign talent, and that has grave consequences. My gosh, Finland can’t even keep talented Finns…every year many of Finland’s most talented leave for America or Germany or England or Sweden. American universities and business have long depended on foreign talent, which has helped make them great. There are many foreign-born professors at American universities, as well as at Swedish and Norwegian institutions. Finnish universities, by contrast, have very very few foreign-born professors. Please read this:
http://www.6d.fi/index.html/page.2009-09-24.3701970537
Enrique
October 12, 2009
–Tiwaz, with a little bit of concious you would see how unfair Finland is toward some immigrants and would not link it any more to the language skills.
Supo acts the way it wishes because nobody really controls it like the campaign funds ordeal. This is totally against how Western democracies work and leaves a lot of abuse by the system. What do you think is going to happen to Finland’s rating as “the least corrupt” country in the world on the Transparency International perceptions of corruption list? That is one myth that has been busted that Finland is honest and not corrupt. Finland is like any Western society.
Tiwaz
October 13, 2009
-”Tiwaz, with a little bit of concious you would see how unfair Finland is toward some immigrants and would not link it any more to the language skills.”
Nope, can’t see it. Things are not made easy, granted. But it is better that way. We do not need people who give up in the face of first adversity. And we do not need people who refuse to accept and lean local culture and language. Finnish culture and language only exist in this small country with it’s population. By letting it go, we deny ourselves and our offspring our identity.
It is my hope that more countries wake up to understand that their unique culture and language can only exist if they make it clear to immigrants that there is no alternative to adjusting to local language and culture. And as we see with recent voting trends, this is already taking place. People are sick and tire of immigrants trying to step on rights of natives.
In your case, if you were falsely charged you should have had the balls to stand up against the decision. Instead you ran away.
I wonder… Perhaps SUPO indeed was right and you knew that if things were dug up, something was bound to surface. Perhaps already had!
I have hard time believing that SUPO goes out of it’s way to harass single immigrant for shits and giggles as you try to claim.
-”Tiwaz, I am not an immigrant; I was an exchange student at the University of Helsinki last year, and now I am back in the states. Anyway, I stand by what I said above.”
And because you spent a while, and again most likely never bothering to learn WHY things work like they do, in Finland makes you absolute authority on the matter. Right.
-”You suggested, Tiwaz, that debate and communication skills are unimportant. There’s no doubt in my mind that the lack of debate and communication skills among Finns has had some very negative consequences. Just one example: over the past 15 years, the European Court of Human Rights has slapped Finland with more judgments than all the other Nordic countries combined!!! Wow! And many of these judgements deal with freedom of speech.”
Again, I point out to you that Finns can communicate and debate. We simply do it based on facts.
We Finns prefer the part of communication Aristotle called logos, the reason. Rest of the world tends to favor pathos, or nonsense if we put it roughly.
You foreigners have that issue, I have noticed it many times. You are unable to accept facts for what they are when they are against your interests.
Instead of ugly truth you want to sugarcoat it.
As for those cases, what kind of freedom of speech is violated?
Besides, I prefer Finland as it is instead of becoming apologist hellhole like Sweden.
-”My other point was that Finns exhibit more xenophobic and backward tendancies when compared with the people of other Western countries (I have spent considerable time in various European countries, including Norway and Sweden). I found both the Norweigians and the Swedes to be better debaters, better communicators, and more open to foreign ideas. That’s why talented people from all over the world go there. Finland does not attract much foreign talent, and that has grave consequences.”
What you call xenophobia I call common sense. Look where this “openness” has taken Sweden. Malmö riots… Oh the pearl of openness and multiculturalism. Place where immigrant youths go forth burning cars and then attacking firemen!
Indeed, this is example to live for. And same shit is taking place elsewhere. Your native country is prime example of failure of that system. Gangwars all over, ethnic division. Divided society…
-”My gosh, Finland can’t even keep talented Finns…every year many of Finland’s most talented leave for America or Germany or England or Sweden. American universities and business have long depended on foreign talent, which has helped make them great. There are many foreign-born professors at American universities, as well as at Swedish and Norwegian institutions. Finnish universities, by contrast, have very very few foreign-born professors. Please read this:”
Finns go abroad but many of them tend to return after experience abroad. Specially when they start forming families.
American universities depend on foreigners because US as society fails to produce enough bright minds. Is that something to be proud of?
And you still fail to think in long term. I like to think long term because short term thinking makes you prone to make huge mistakes for small immediate benefits.
By retaining our current status, and preventing multiculturalism and “openness” you vouch for we maintain our stable and rather safe society.
So when rest of the world goes to hell with internal problems due to unintegrated immigrants, Finland prospers.
Give it a decade or two and we have lots of skilled foreigners queuing up to come to Finland when they do not want to raise their children in the unsafe and conflicted conditions of other nations.
You see, there is no point trying to offer things other nations offer. Specially when they are bound for failure. Finland will never offer high wages, we offer high taxes. Finland will never offer easy integration, we offer hard task of learning language and culture.
But these are things which offer us society with services you as American can only dream of. Or would you be willing to drop your health insurance? I do not need one!
And after enduring hardship of integration, we offer society which is not just waiting to tear itself apart but one where people still have feeling of unity. Not as much as we used to, but far more than multiculturalist hellholes have to offer.
These things can matter to family man who has wife and kids much more than things offered by UK, Sweden and other places which go for your “open” ideal.
And that is future which will take place unless multiculturalist agenda is permitted to take root in Finland or foreign governments suddenly grow a backbone and start beating back the multiculturalism they already have permitted to fester in their nations.
alien
October 13, 2009
- In your case, if you were falsely charged you should have had the balls to stand up against the decision. Instead you ran away.
Well, Tiwaz I took my case to the highest judiciary position in Finland which is Korkein hallinto oikeus. If u have noticed Supo has put tremendous pressure on KHO that take the decision in their favor. SO I guess I have followed it enough in your country. So I guess my balls are enormous in Finnish standards! Unless you want to see and feel it for yourself and be astonished, it would be better that u take my word as it is!
- I wonder… Perhaps SUPO indeed was right and you knew that if things were dug up, something was bound to surface. Perhaps already had!
No on contrary! If u accuse my of some thing u should come up with reason and evidence, not me. if Supo had any thing but lies, would bring it up. This simply and sadly shows that your country is more like a Stalinist system that a whole system can circumvent the law to hares a single man and there is no supervising body on your country to stop it. Your judiciary system is not independent and can rule any thing even against it laws to hold solidarity and faith to the rest of their tribe. You have all the characteristic of a tribal society.
- I have hard time believing that SUPO goes out of it’s way to harass single immigrant for shits and giggles as you try to claim.
Well Tiwaz, with some courage, a tea spoon of love, half a spoon patience you will believe!
tt500
October 13, 2009
Melissa J, I think you have some good points, but let me offer a few comments. I’ve been in Finland for about two years now (married to a Finn). I don’t think Finns are any more racist than people of other Western nations, but I admit, it does seem like that. The reason is that Finns have a tendancy to speak in rather careless ways by international standards, which relates to their somewhat isolated mentality. There are historical reasons for this. Their identity has long been defined by a nationalist agenda (this goes back to the late 1800s). Thus Finnish writers and thinkers at the univerities tend to have a more pronounced inward sensibility. The result is that Finns still feel as if they are somewhat detached from the greater world and not obligated to acknowledge international standards of communication, etc. In other words, they don’t seem to realize in any deeper way that they are part of a mega-state (the European Union), and that their economy is absolutely dependant on other countries now (during Soviet times the Finnish economy was largely tied to the Soviet economy by way of a war treaty, which resulted in exclusive contracts). Yet many Finns still seem to think that they can get by in the new world with this older strategy for survial. But things have changed. Kekkonen is gone. The exclusive contracts with the East are gone. Nowadays, for example, Nokia represents a huge part of the Finnish economy; Nokia’s success is completely tied to relations with other European countries, China, the USA etc. A large percentage of Finns don’t really get that yet. There’s sort of a “delayed maturity” to Finnish culture. This delayed maturity can be seen in the average Finn on the street as well as in the highest intellectuals at the univerities. That is in part why they are racking up a pretty negative human rights record in the EU (primarily free speech issues, which stems from the Kekkonen days), and why they frequently say things about foreigners that would be unthinkable in say, Sweden, Norway, America, Britain, etc. The good news is that Finns have shown in the past that they can change and adapt rather quickly. But of course Finnish leaders — those who set the tone and national agenda — must make the move. But I think Finns will adjust. Finns are good people, they’re just struggling with there their rather new position on the international scene.
alien
October 13, 2009
Yes
Leaving Finland is a right option. But my recommendation to youngsters is that learn a profession, or complete your studies before leaving.
foreign man
October 13, 2009
I agree Alien: “Leaving Finland is the right option.” I am definately leaving. Good thing I have a Swedish passport.
Even if you learn Finnish (like I did) you’ll still be looked upon as an outcast by Finns…you can’t win: they’ll either call you a job stealer (if you are lucky enough to get a job) or a welfare bum. So I am leaving. And the next time I see a begging drunk Finnish guy in the streets of Stockholm (and many of the begging drunks on the steets of Stockholm are Finnish), I’ll kindly give him some money because I don’t want Sweden to become an anti-immigrant nation.
foreign man
October 13, 2009
Oh, one more thing. Tiwaz, you said “American universities depend on foreigners because US as society fails to produce enough bright minds.”
You are quite foolish. America has produced over 300 Nobel Laureates – WAY MORE than any other country on the planet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_country
I’m not a big fan of American foreign policy, but one thing is for sure, America has the best universities in the world…they produce (home-grown) and attract (foreigners) the smartest of the smart. Everybody knows that! That’s just a fact!
Enrique
October 13, 2009
Hi foreign man, and thank you for sharing your thoughts. Sometimes a person does not have a choice to leave because he may family obligations etc. But yes, if a country does not offer you a future, the best matter to do is to go somewhere else where you will be able to build a future.
Enrique
October 13, 2009
Hi tt500 and welcome to Migrant Tales. In all societies there are all types. Some of us who live in Finland enjoy it quite much. But liking something does not mean being quiet. It means participating and airing one’s views. With many of the issues facing some immigrants in Finland, it is a good thing that some of us can address these matters.
tt500
October 13, 2009
Hi Enrique, Thanks for your comment. I totally agree with you: it’s good that people can address these matters, and being quiet about these things doesn’t help. That’s why I think this blog is really great. The issues are tough, and some get really upset, but I think it is really helpful because these issues are not addressed so much in Finland.
Enrique
October 13, 2009
tt500, that´s why this blogs attracts a lot of people and different views. But yes, if you wait for Helsingin Sanomat to address these issues you will have to wait a very, very long time. We have a voice thanks to us.
alien
October 13, 2009
BTW:
This blog has grown to 256 pages if u want to print it. I have a suggestion; Why dont u print it Enrique and make a book out of it? It will be then more accessible to rest of the people.
Tiwaz
October 14, 2009
-”Well, Tiwaz I took my case to the highest judiciary position in Finland which is Korkein hallinto oikeus. If u have noticed Supo has put tremendous pressure on KHO that take the decision in their favor. SO I guess I have followed it enough in your country. So I guess my balls are enormous in Finnish standards! Unless you want to see and feel it for yourself and be astonished, it would be better that u take my word as it is!
”
So you either lost, in which case SUPO had valid case, or you won and case was thrown out. So what the fuck is your issue?
Either you were found guilty or innocent according to principles of Finnish law.
If guilty, you are guilty. If innocent, what is your issue with this? That you WERE suspected? Well too bad for you. Perhaps you would prefer that you are untouchable for law? We know how well things went for USA when their security agencies did not do their jobs. Thousands of people died!
-”You are quite foolish. America has produced over 300 Nobel Laureates – WAY MORE than any other country on the planet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_country”
320 to be exact.
Out of 300 million people. Compare statistics by capita and you notice that USA isn’t all that hot. Germany has produced 103 laureates with less than third of population.
Let’s calculate laureates per 1 million people.
Germany= 103/82=1,25
UK=115/61=1,88
USA=320/307=1,04
Finland is 0,8 in this so we are not really hot either.
Or perhaps based on GDP? It’s not going to look pretty that way either. Following is laureates per billion in GDP(PPP).
Finland=4/191=0,02
USA=320/14441=0,02
UK=115/2228= 0,05
Germany=103/2910=0,03
Again, considering it’s resources USA is underperforming. Their size permits staggering absolute numbers, but when compared to what they have to work with they are poor.
foreign man
October 14, 2009
Tiwaz, You don’t really understand the numbers nor do you understand America. When America started receiving Nobel prizes, the country was not that much bigger (population) than Germany or the UK. America is now well over three times bigger than it was in 1902 (Germany and the UK, for example, have not grown that much). And much of the population explosion in America has been relatively recent. And so have the Nobel prizes. In other words, America’s share of Nobel prizes has been growing exponentially and in line with the population. Thus citing today’s population size, as you did, says very little.
Finland shows the opposite trend. Before Ahtisaasi, the last Finn to receive a Nobel prize was in 1967. Thus as Finland’s population increases, Nobel prizes decrease; this points to a serious problem of brain drain. And Nobel prizes are just one measure. Post-WWII America has been — for better or worse — the intellectual epicenter of the world. I admit I am a bit jealous of this, but I have to be honest with myself: The overwhelming majority of world-class published research in every field comes out of America. Period. And many of the greatest Finnish minds and cultural figures have emigrated there, too: Eliel Saarinen (architect who designed central station in Helsinki), Esa-Pekka Salonen (Conductor), Jaakko Hintikka (philosopher), Leena Peltonen (physician and biologist), Hiski Salomaa (singer), Lars Valerian Ahlfors (mathmatician), etc. I think the reason is that America is a land of immigrants, and they seem more open to outsider points of view (except those scary republican politicians). That’s why they were able to elect Obama.
Yes, Finland produces great thinkers and cultural figures, too (those names I just mentioned are but a few), but Finland has not done such a good job of keeping them or attracting new ones. Why is that? I think the reason is in part due to a prevailing anti-outsider worldview, which is evident on this blog and many others. The result is a rather backward and provincial cultural feel. Finns are not trained to think critically and debate; they are rather trained to follow orders and cite statistics (Melissa J mentioned this above). So when Finns fail to hire foreigners or treat them equitably, Finns simply blame the immigrants.
Of course both America and my country of citizenship, Sweden, have problems with xenophobia, too. And in fact Sweden has got a little worse in the past few years, sorry to say. But the difference is that Swedes (and Americans, too) do a better of confronting these issues by publically and privately engaging in constructive criticism. Finns seem to push problems under the table. They won’t talk and try to see other points of view. Or if they do talk, they just become aggressive and nasty. And then they get drunk. The good thing is that with the younger Finns things are changing – especially females. But until that change is reflected in the broader society, I shall stay away (even though I do have a Finnish relative).
Tiwaz
October 15, 2009
-”You don’t really understand the numbers nor do you understand America. When America started receiving Nobel prizes, the country was not that much bigger (population) than Germany or the UK. America is now well over three times bigger than it was in 1902 (Germany and the UK, for example, have not grown that much). And much of the population explosion in America has been relatively recent. And so have the Nobel prizes. In other words, America’s share of Nobel prizes has been growing exponentially and in line with the population. Thus citing today’s population size, as you did, says very little.”
And have you bothered to check how many winners are actually educated abroad?
-”I think the reason is that America is a land of immigrants, and they seem more open to outsider points of view (except those scary republican politicians). That’s why they were able to elect Obama.”
Yes, or rather because USA offers them big bucks. Which is coming to an end as US economy is starting to feel bad decisions catching up with them. Give it a decade or two and you see USA take hard nosedive down.
-”I just mentioned are but a few), but Finland has not done such a good job of keeping them or attracting new ones. Why is that? I think the reason is in part due to a prevailing anti-outsider worldview, which is evident on this blog and many others.”
Well, Finland does not really want foreigners who do not want to live here on Finnish terms. USA is simple case, there is no established culture or society. It is still very much society taking it’s infant steps. Finns have been Finns for millenia. For us to stop being Finns to appease foreigners is idiotic demand. Why should we yield our identity so that foreigners who move to our country would not need to yield theirs?
-”Finns are not trained to think critically and debate; they are rather trained to follow orders and cite statistics (Melissa J mentioned this above). So when Finns fail to hire foreigners or treat them equitably, Finns simply blame the immigrants.”
Incorrect. You clearly do not grasp the concept I presented to you. Finns learn to use FACTS. Foreigners like to deal with fiction (also known as emotions). This makes Finns generally supreme engineers and poor philosophers.
And honestly, engineers are who keep this world running. Not philosophers. Finns debate with facts, are interested of facts. Not make feel crap.
And if immigrant fails to understand that they have to adjust to Finnish fact oriented society, it IS THEIR FAULT.
IMMIGRANTS ARE TREATED EQUALLY, THEY ARE JUST TOO STUPID TO GRASP THAT THEY HAVE INFERIOR SKILLS.
FINN WHO DOES NOT SPEAK LANGUAGE AND DOES NOT ACT PROPERLY CAN EXPECT EXACT SAME TREATMENT AS IMMIGRANT WHO DOES NOT SPEAK OR BEHAVE.
That, my friend, is equality.
Scott
October 15, 2009
Hello everyone, very interesting thread indeed. I am a contract agent for a electronics company from abroad, and I have been doing business in Scandinavia for several years. I’ve been to Finland many times, but I don’t the know the culture well enough to know whether Finns are racist or not. However, I can offer some thoughts on this – and racism and xenophobia in general – from the standpoint of international business relations.
Let me start by saying that how people or groups of people talk about race or foreígn people is VERY important. If I am about to secure a million dollar contract with a firm, and I find that those working at the firm make thoughless and careless remarks about foreigners, I will be very hesitant to make a business deal. Nowadays we are steeped in a global environment, which of course involves people from around the world. As businessman, I cannot afford to take a chance on dealing with people with xenophobic attitudes. It hurts business relations and it hurts the business environment. Furthermore, if somebody displays xenophobia, they are showing signs of carelessness and stupidity. So why deal them? There’s no need to — there are plenty of other companies to choose from. Xenophobic and racist people are liabilities, not assets.
So when I read this thread (and a few others like this) and I see Finns relentlessly telling foreigners to “go home” or “immigrants are too stupid too grasp..,” I begin to wonder what is going on. And when I am in a pub, and some educated Finnish guy says, “I am not a racist, but niggers…blah blah blah” (this happened to me) I start to wonder whether there is some deeper problem. To find an educated man making rather primitive xenophobic and racist remarks is a cause for great alarm. Again, I don’t know whether Finns are racist or xenophobic, but it seems to me, from a strickly business perspective, that Finns ought to realize that since they are now international players in the business world, they need to observe international standards of communication and respect. If they don’t, they will surely lose business deals and valuable foreign assests — things that their economy depends upon. Cheers, Scott.
Enrique
October 15, 2009
Hi Scott, many thanks for dropping by (we hope you do so many times) and sharing your thoughts. You make a valid point about doing business with a company that things that bashing some immgrant groups is fine. The point that you make is very valuable. Finns, and a lot do, understand that they are a part of the world. However, if a disturbing amount of educated people in this counry think it is ok to throw a racist joke at you, that is worrying. Finland, as you mentioned, is losing opportunities due its reticent attitude towards foreigners. High unemployment is, in my opinion, a good example that there is something wrong.
Agricola's dance
October 15, 2009
Hello everybody, here’s a response to some of the recent posts. I shall not reveal my citizenship because it is not necessary for what I have to say.
Tiwaz writes “engineers are who keep this world running. Not philosophers. Finns debate with facts, are interested of facts. Not make feel crap.”
No.
Tiwaz greatly underestimates how much of his or her life has been shaped by philosophers. Philosophers set the parameters of debate, engineers and scientists build gadgets and bombs, and politicians decide what to do with it all. The foundation for modern Western democracy was set by philosophers during the Enlightenment era. Those philosophers themselves looked back to ancient Greek philosophers for inspiration, ideas, and guidance. Johan Vilhelm Snellman, among the most important figures in Finnish history, was a philosopher (followed Hegel).
Tiwaz also writes, much to my astonishment: “Well, Finland does not really want foreigners who do not want to live here on Finnish terms. USA is simple case, there is no established culture or society. It is still very much society taking it’s infant steps. Finns have been Finns for millenia.”
Tiwaz doesn’t seem to recognize American culture because he or she is, to a large extent, living with it. America brought the world Jazz (highly valued in Finland), Rock and Roll, and numerous other cultural phenomenon. And don’t forget, jazz came from African Americans, and rock and roll came largely from white country music and black blues. And what about those blue jeans you wear? Invented by American immigrants. How about the transistor – the primary building block for electronics like the computer you are looking at? America physicists. Tiwaz, you are living the life you live because of foreign interaction. And of course America is but one small aspect of that foreign interaction.
One last point. Finns did not consider themselves collectively as “Finnish” until relatively recent history. There were many distinct sub-groups in Finland in the past, and while they all spoke a Finno-Ugric language, they could not always understand one another (Karelians, Ingrians, etc.). It was the philosophical project borne out the Enlightenment called “Romantic Nationalism” that first gave people in Finland a sense of collective “Finnishness.” Many of those philosophers and writers were Finnish-Swedes.
Enrique
October 15, 2009
Hi Agricola’s dance, thank you for your insightful comment. I agree totally with you. The idea that our culture is “unique” and living in a sort of bubble with not outside influence is simply a myth. That, what you point out, could apply to all peoples of the world. Interaction has always existed and will continue to exist and shape cultures. Even though this is the case, isn’t it odd that in this day of age some of us still find it so difficult to accept others.
Tiwaz
October 16, 2009
-”Just read that Nokia made a loss of half a million in Q3….maybe there is some innovation missing?”
Blame the market department and guys with cash.
-”he foundation for modern Western democracy was set by philosophers during the Enlightenment era. Those philosophers themselves looked back to ancient Greek philosophers for inspiration, ideas, and guidance. Johan Vilhelm Snellman, among the most important figures in Finnish history, was a philosopher (followed Hegel).”
And what good is philosopher without gadgets? Philosophy was made possible only through ability of some to dedicate their time to something non-productive.
In antiquity this meant that they had slaves to care for their land so that Socrates did not have to. If his society did not enjoy that privilege, he would have been hard pressed to have time to philosphise, he would be busy trying to eke out a living.
Then, when slavery was finally found to be crude (and indeed philosophers were involved in this process) they switched to de facto slavery for underclasses.
It was the scientists and engineers, first ones by creating a theory and second ones by making it do something practical (though early on these two groups were practically synonymous) that this condition was eased.
Through improved farming methods, more efficient ways of labor. Without those, we would still live in medieval setting where majority of people would be toiling in what is practically slavery.
-”Tiwaz doesn’t seem to recognize American culture because he or she is, to a large extent, living with it. America brought the world Jazz (highly valued in Finland), Rock and Roll, and numerous other cultural phenomenon. And don’t forget, jazz came from African Americans, and rock and roll came largely from white country music and black blues. And what about those blue jeans you wear? Invented by American immigrants. How about the transistor – the primary building block for electronics like the computer you are looking at? America physicists. Tiwaz, you are living the life you live because of foreign interaction. And of course America is but one small aspect of that foreign interaction.”
Culture, I spoke of culture as in unified social structure. Shared values etc.
USA has none, or rather has very loose set of them. Pop-music, rock and McDonalds are not culture. Or if they ARE all there is for American culture, it is very poor one.
USA is still trying to become mature society, it is not mature society. It is still infant society because it has only existed for so short time. Like it has been said, American is someone who things century is a long time, European is someone who thinks 100 miles is a long way.
America has lots of space, but little history in that space and so has little things that bind people who live in all that space together.
Europe has rather little space, but vast, vast history which binds people in it. People inside their nations are bound by their cultural heritage together into one cohesive unit.
-”One last point. Finns did not consider themselves collectively as “Finnish” until relatively recent history. There were many distinct sub-groups in Finland in the past, and while they all spoke a Finno-Ugric language, they could not always understand one another (Karelians, Ingrians, etc.). It was the philosophical project borne out the Enlightenment called “Romantic Nationalism” that first gave people in Finland a sense of collective “Finnishness.” Many of those philosophers and writers were Finnish-Swedes.”
Finns still were Finns. Would you mind proving when Tavastian, Karelian, Savonian and Osthrobotnian were NOT able to talk to one another and get their message through?
As for Finnish-Swedes… This again goes back to two things. First, Finn who wanted to get anywhere had to go Swedish. Everything above position of soldier, farmer or servant were reserved for Swedes (point which rather effectively kicks Enriques theory of “multicultural Finland” in the nuts), so Finns went to great trouble to Swedish themselves.
Second, it is again the medieval society which permitted philosophers to do what they did… Huge mass of underprivileged people who lived and worked in bad conditions to produce food.
Those Finnish-Swedish philosphers would have frozen their asses in their fine mansions while dying of hunger without that minor detail.
-”Hi Agricola’s dance, thank you for your insightful comment. I agree totally with you. The idea that our culture is “unique” and living in a sort of bubble with not outside influence is simply a myth. That, what you point out, could apply to all peoples of the world. Interaction has always existed and will continue to exist and shape cultures. Even though this is the case, isn’t it odd that in this day of age some of us still find it so difficult to accept others.”
We have been through this before. I have never said culture does not change or take influences from abroad. Issue is that YOU appear to think that OUTSIDERS decide what Finnish culture should be like.
MY point is that ONLY FINNS can decide what is added to Finnish culture and what is not.
Until it is added, it is not part of Finnish culture and cannot be considered one. And EVERYTHING which might be added to Finnish culture must fit EXISTING cultural tradition.
Interaction does not mean that we Finns must bend over backwards to appease some foreign fruitcakes who think they do not need to adjust to conditions of society where they move to.
Agricola's dance
October 16, 2009
Tiwaz,
First, try to put together logical responses to arguments by sticking to the arguments. You jump all over the place like a chicken with its head cutoff. Even though it is sort of funny (and sad), it ultimately does little to advance the debate. It’s like reading some story written by a maladjusted schizophrenic prone to hyper-emotional outbursts. You said you were interested in logic and reason. For example, you stated that “engineers are who keep this world running. Not philosophers. Finns debate with facts, are interested of facts. Not make feel crap.” I thought to myself, ok, maybe we can debate something now. So I responded by pointing out the influence of philosophy. Very simple and to the point. Your response in turn was some sort of incoherent rambling about ‘slavery’ and ‘poor work conditions.’ That, tiwaz, is a completely different debate. Your response may be true, may be false. Whatever the case, we were not arguing about ‘slavery’ and ‘poor work conditions.’ This is why debate skills are important.
Second, go look up “society” and “culture” in your dictionary. Notice the similarities and differences.
Third, go look up “racism” in the dictionary. Notice the various forms that racism can take. Once you do that, you will realize that you have been making very racist statements. “Finland is for Finns” is a racist statement because “Finnish” generally conotes a genetically closely related group of people. On the other hand, if someone says, “America is for Americans,” that would not be racist (it would be sort of silly though) because “American” does not connote race. Now, if you had said, “Finland is for Finnish citizens and legal residents,” that would not necessarily be racist. Reread another statement you have written above: “IMMIGRANTS ARE TREATED EQUALLY, THEY ARE JUST TOO STUPID TO GRASP THAT THEY HAVE INFERIOR SKILLS.” You are definitely not making Finland look good when you say racist things like this.
Fourth, read some Finnish history, for you are allegedly Finnish, right? Once you do that, you will find that people in this land recently named the Republic of Finland only began in the mid to late 1800s to feel a collective sense “Finnishness.”
And lastly, realize that you do not speak for all Finns, so stop pretending to be Herra Suomi.
Enrique
October 16, 2009
–And lastly, realize that you do not speak for all Finns, so stop pretending to be Herra Suomi.
Very well said, Agricola’s dance.
intternetnetsi
October 17, 2009
“High unemployment is, in my opinion, a good example that there is something wrong.”
Yes, wrong immigrants withouth needed skills.
I found more current and better stats about unemployment of foreigners.
30.9.2008 Total unemploymen of foreigners 17,7
Near 6,4% what was national unemployment in 2008 were netherland 6,5%, india 7%, canada 6%, china 6,8%, poland 6,1%, germany 5,4% and hungary 6,6%.
http://www.intermin.fi/intermin/biblio.nsf/D5A6B24123947ACEC225754C004B836E/$file/22009.pdf page 21
alien
October 17, 2009
This blog can definitely give a glimpse of how Finland and Finns think about immigrants. Among all who has a desire to take part into the discussion there are a few Finns or more accurately 2, and several others who are immigrants or have an experience about Finland. The participation of all should be appreciated as without all of us this discussion would not go on. The great thing about this discussion is simply show the hostility of the Finnish system toward immigrants. One needs not to dig hardly to find that out!
The second thing to remind is, that more sophisticated debated needs more research and more fact to present whose requirements may be beyond the possibilities and abilities of this site. I personally usually take part in less difficult debates of which I can talk easier and presenting facts are simpler. In addition to that the readers patience will not be exhausted. I think what ever the debate is, a very simple but important requirement of doing any debate is to avoid of getting personal and become defensive or offensive. For example; the importance of Engineers and Philosophers is well perceived that I need to add any thing. Either one’s importance does not need to deny the other one. We know the importance of Hegel, Marx, Max weber, Roso, Robespier, Wolter, and other philosophers and thinkers. The bases of the society at least in Europe owes to the work of theses men. TO deny their role makes even the chicken in the oven laugh. The reason that Tiwaz is so offensive against philosophers is not that he does not recognize their importance, but I guess his stand against the righteous points of some of us has put him in this position. This is sadly the same approach which is chosen in Finland by the system. They are reluctant to consider immigrants according to a logics or rules. They keep doing that until they get to a hard obstacle.
I recommend to people intending to go to Finland take a look at this blog. It is very useful.
intternetnetsi
October 18, 2009
Coming finland with SO has nothing to do with luck, its decision what everyone has to think through. They either make it or not depending on individual and his/her networks.
Tiwaz
October 19, 2009
-”First, try to put together logical responses to arguments by sticking to the arguments. You jump all over the place like a chicken with its head cutoff. Even though it is sort of funny (and sad), it ultimately does little to advance the debate. It’s like reading some story written by a maladjusted schizophrenic prone to hyper-emotional outbursts. You said you were interested in logic and reason.”
Good for you, basic strategy of poor debator. Go Ad Hominem at firs opportunity.
Apparently you have issues understanding simple concepts…
Philosophers are worthless, because they are luxury of society. They CAN contribute to society, but existence of philosopher is sign that society in itself is capable of maintaining itself without philosphers.
Why? Because philosopher does not produce anything. Philosophers and artists are waste for society, only society which has working “working” system can afford to maintain philosophers.
And it is engineers who build such system. Thus, functional society does not require philosophers but engineers, for society with plenty of first but no latter will die out.
Society rich in latter but lacking first one tends to be bit grey in shade, but it works.
-”Fourth, read some Finnish history, for you are allegedly Finnish, right? Once you do that, you will find that people in this land recently named the Republic of Finland only began in the mid to late 1800s to feel a collective sense “Finnishness.””
And you clearly need to read history. COUNTRY of Finland was born in 1800s, PEOPLE AND SOCIETY of Finns dates to sometime little after last ice age.
You clearly are one of those idiots who cannot grasp difference between country and people. They commonly are same, but not always.
And I am waiting for your evidence that Finnish tribes did not recognize their common ancestry. While they did fight against one another, it does not mean they did not acknowledge their shared past.
Specially considering that language differences you try to portray were very rare and exceptions to rule where all Finns shared ability to communicate across tribal boundaries.
As for your asskissing attitude. What would you say to immigrant who refuses to grasp that they have inferior skills? I call them stupid because that is what they are.
They ARE stupid if they do not grasp that in every nation you are not going to find employment easily unless you speak local lingo.
As for speaking for Finns. I speak for whole lot of more Finns than you Mr. Asskisser.
In case you are not aware, Finns tend to be rather patriotic bunch who like their country.
You and your kin, who think that best solution is to appease immigrants by lowering standards for them are the tiny minority.
Tiwaz
October 19, 2009
As for racism, guy who does not deserve to speak of Agricola, I have repeatedly said that I welcome immigrants to Finland.
But only that type of immigrant who figure out that they have to change and adjust to conditions and requirements existing in Finland.
Not whiny ones like alien who wants to be above law and does not want to speak Finnish language or respect Finnish culture but expects to have exactly the same treatment as someone who has both those skills.
Tiwaz
October 20, 2009
-”As I said my girlfriend is Finnish and we have a perfect life. It’s just a matter of attitude and how you see the world. Of course if you are narrow minded like Tiwaz you will never understand it. Feel sorry for Tiwaz.”
I have perfect life as well.
And I want it to STAY that way. It means I do not want any of the failures of “multiculturalism” which you want to import to my home.
If you want to live in foreign country, learn to live like natives do.
Is that so impossible concept for immigrants? Are you guys truly that stupid?
Or are you so arrogant that you see yourselves as pinnacle of humanity who does not need to change to fit the surroundings but expect surroundings to change to fit you?
You are the one who is narrow minded, I accept that when I leave Finland I leave behind things I take for granted. You try to say that Finland has no right to be Finland and Finnish, but has to appease your foreign ass so you do not need to change.
Tiwaz
October 21, 2009
-”My girlfriend is Finnish so she is also part of Finland and your Culture. ”
Never said she isn’t. You on other hand…
-”f you can’t live with multiculturalism then it is your problem.”
And if you can’t live with Finnish culture, that is YOUR problem. I have no desire for multiculturalism in my home and will do everything in my power to keep it away.
-”And again, you DON’T represent your whole country.”
I merely, based on statistics, represent the large majority.
Majority trumps minority. So my view trumps yours.
For example new laws regarding immigration suggested by Astrid Thors got overwhelmingly negative reception.
Finns are critical of multiculturalism and demands of appeasement of immigrants. We fortunately have not yet fallen to politically correct ideology of trying to tolerate everything but our own culture.
EvilFinn
October 22, 2009
Umm… wow… Some of these comments are… just wow…
As many Finns have pointed out: there should be some kind of adaptation to Finnish culture/society if one want’s to live here. I agree. The problem is that we, Finns, are not helping at all.
If someone wants to become part of the Finnish society, there’s many problems even to people from near our country. No one can come here saying “tomorrow I will be just like any other Finn” and then magically transform to one of us. I think that we have too many unwritten stiff social rules for immigrants to digest in one day. Not to mention there’s our lovable bureaucracy and extremely easy fusional/agglutinative language which is devided to written language and spoken language (plus dialects). Piece of cake, isn’t it?
Adaptation can be a long, long process. Why are we rude to those who are in the beginning of that process? Why do we only tolerate those who have succeeded in complete adaptation to Finnish society? I think it’s great if a foreign person can say for example “ruisleipä”. It makes me smile. It’s nice when someone even tries to do things our way or say things in our language (even if they fail). Why can’t we show a little patience and encourage those who are willing to enter our world. It can’t hurt too much!
(And by “adaptation” I don’t mean that one should completely become a Finn. It’s impossible and stupid. Adaptation means that one understands our “rules” and plays by them)
Oh, and “Multiculturalism” is a word that seems to have different meanings for different people here. For us the word seems to be a synonym to “the complete destruction of Finnish culture”. I think it’s funny. Could someone explain what would “multicultural Finland” be like?
Agricola's dance
October 22, 2009
Hi EvilFinn, I agree with your comment on “multiculturalism.” It’s an ill-defined word, and in many cases its usage isn’t backed up by any sort of coherent philosophy. This is true not just on this blog, but in academic literature, too. I actually prefer to avoid using the term because I think it sets off too much overheated emotion…and then we risk losing site of what we were debating.
I think most people would agree that immigrants ought to observe local customs and laws. Likewise, in the Western Europe and North America, there are also shared socio-cultural norms and laws for dealing with immigrants. The big question for this blog is whether immigrants in Finland feel they been treated in accordance with those standards. Notice that a lot of posts are comparative (i.e., most immigrants have been to or lived in many places, so they make cross-cultural comparisons).
Enrique
October 22, 2009
Agricloa´s dance, you are right about the term “multicultural.” I do think it is confusing since we do not know whether the person means a society comprising of many cultures or the social policy in Canada, Australia and the UK. What term would you think is appropriate? Multiethnical society? Or why are labels so important if we belong to the same home?
Enrique
October 22, 2009
Hi EvilFinn, thank you for those insights. It is an interesting point you make that Finns are not helping at all in the adaption process of immigrants. Going back to the term multiculturalism as a social policy, it may mean how we use/share public spaces with different groups. Thus if a new neighborhood is built in Finland, we right away think of putting up a Lutheran Church while we should be probably thinking of a Catholic Church, Mosque or whatever. In my humble opinion, I think it is important that despite our differences we all consider Finland our home. I always get worried when some immigrants start to speak about Finns in the same way as some Finns speak of immigrants.
Jaakko
October 22, 2009
“Thus if a new neighborhood is built in Finland, we right away think of putting up a Lutheran Church while we should be probably thinking of a Catholic Church, Mosque or whatever.”
more than 80 percent of people living in Finland is Lutheran, second biggest group is Orthodox christians with 1,1 %. It’s not a surprise that if a sanctuary is built, it’s built for Lutheran people. I’m not sure if you mean ‘possibly’ or ‘most likely’ with ‘probably’. We could maybe think of building a mosque or a Catholic church somewhere if we knew there would be lots of people belonging to that religion. I’d like an idea of starting to build big buildings which would serve as sanctuaries for many religions and also as public places where people in the neighborhood could gather. Any needing religion would be given a room for sanctuary and a big room in the middle would be free for all. Maybe it’s a naive idea but still it could help building friendship between differend people.
intternetnetsi
October 23, 2009
And many of those who claim “no religion” are lutherans like me. I will like and demand lutheran marriage and funeral even if im not willing to pay for it since church doesnt fully represent my values.
Im romantic bastard wanting romantic values, sue me.
d_lexicon
October 23, 2009
Wow, EvilFinn! Your very well articulated post is like a breath of fresh air. Best thing I’ve read all morning.
Tiwaz
October 23, 2009
-”And what is the percentage?”
Depends on who performed the survey, how and what they were asking.
Numbers are usually from little over 50 to anything like 90% (last ones tend to be least credible ones, but over 50% ones have usually large “I don’t know”-section instead of yes/no set).
-”As I said my girlfriend is Finnish and I have 2 friends who are also living with an “immigrant”. They are happy. Then there are also these 1.2 Mio Finns who live abroad…”
Care to tell me how many of those 1,2 million are actually born in Finland to Finnish parents?
-”If someone wants to become part of the Finnish society, there’s many problems even to people from near our country. No one can come here saying “tomorrow I will be just like any other Finn” and then magically transform to one of us. I think that we have too many unwritten stiff social rules for immigrants to digest in one day. Not to mention there’s our lovable bureaucracy and extremely easy fusional/agglutinative language which is devided to written language and spoken language (plus dialects). Piece of cake, isn’t it?”
I don’t think anyone has suggested it is in any way easy or fast. Just the opposite. Problem is, great many immigrants do not want to accept that they have to spend long time and hard work to get around that obstacle.
-”Adaptation can be a long, long process. Why are we rude to those who are in the beginning of that process? Why do we only tolerate those who have succeeded in complete adaptation to Finnish society?”
We are rude when they are rude. When they firmly refuse to understand that they have to adjust and do not work to adjust.
Basic principles of Finnish society are reasonably easy to learn, thanks to high respect for privacy in Finnish culture. Nuances are completely another thing but they are not usually required for passing contact with natives.
What causes the rude reaction to immigrants is immigrant habit to demand things. They demand respect of their culture, which means that in their view their cultural tradition must come before Finnish one.
Or they have attitude of superiority. Like one poster, I think in this very blog, who thought he should “teach” Finns to smile. Because people do not smile to each other in public transports.
Such behavior is extremely insulting. I would not dream of going to homeland of someone else and starting to “educate” them or demand that MY ways should be followed instead of local ways. But that is what we get in increasing amount from foreigners.
Integration has not become necessity, but it is viewed as something you do if you feel like it. And when you get nowhere without integrating starts the bitching and whining.
-”Thus if a new neighborhood is built in Finland, we right away think of putting up a Lutheran Church while we should be probably thinking of a Catholic Church, Mosque or whatever.”
False. Finland has two state religions, Lutheran and Orthodox. Rest have to figure out their own way to get their churches. You want Catholic church or Mosque, you get funding and permits yourself. (actually to my knowledge that is what Lutheran and Orthodox churches have to do as well)
Furthermore, no group should be given preferential treatment. Muslims and Catholics form so tiny statistical group of Finnish population that it would be unacceptable waste of money to build them houses of worship when there aren’t members of religion.
Enrique
October 24, 2009
Hi xyz, and thank you for the link. It is a good thing that Yle writes and exposes these problems in Finland. Before, the problem was never addressed because the media rarely bothered to write about the problems that immigrants face in this country. It would be interesting to do a study on Helsingin Sanomat during the cold war era. I remember one person telling me that it was standard editorial policy at Helsingin Sanomat not to write about immigrant/refugee issues. Certainly as more immigrants/refugees came to Finland, the daily had no other choice but to write about these topics. But why should a daily care about immigrants if they are small fry in this country demographically.
Enrique
October 24, 2009
-I don’t think anyone has suggested it is in any way easy or fast. Just the opposite. Problem is, great many immigrants do not want to accept that they have to spend long time and hard work to get around that obstacle.
If you want my opinion, the big problem are people like you who do not understand that diversity is a natural matter in all Western societies. Diversity is the mainstay of our democratic system and not some rubber stamp that approves everything the government says as in the past. I am surprised that you want Finland to return to the cold war days when the political thinking was simple: we have a terrible neighbor and we must use it to reap domestic political benefits like keeping Kokoomus in the opposition for about 20 years.
JW
October 25, 2009
Whether or not Finns are any more racist than others, one thing is for sure: they sure have a lot of growing up to do. Finns don’t realize they are not so isolated anymore, and people from around the world are watching and noticing. Racist humor can be seen on Finnish TV and in the streets. Quite shocking. Here are some examples from youtube that show how racism is “legitimized” in Finland.
In the “Ruusu Show” they have a Finnish guy in blackface as a Somali. This is not satire…this is hardcore racism on legitimate Finnish TV. Blackface was erased from legitmate media channels in Western Europe and North America long ago.
In the next video, you will see Finnish skinheads walking around Helsinki. Notice at 0:47 the Finnish skinheads push a black woman and the security guards didn’t even do anything about it.
Irwin Goodman’s song “Mutakuono ja lakupelle” which tells darker skinned people to get out of Finland. Although Goodman claims the piece was meant to be satire — trying to make fun of Finnish racism — the satire argument is rings hollow: “Mutakuono ja lakupelle” has become a favorite song for Finnish Skinheads. And they are taking the meaning rather literally. Just read the comments below the video (if you can read Finnish, you are going to be blown away at the racism).
Racism in Finland seems to be legitimized in ways not seen in other Western states. Finns better start taking a serious look at what they are doing if they want to get along in this world.
JW
October 25, 2009
This is the Irwin Goodman song “Mutakuono ja lakupelle” with the comments (the one I posted above had the comments deleted).
Enrique
October 25, 2009
Hi JW, thank you for sharing your thoughts and video clips with us. Very interesting indeed. One of the reasons why some are still in the dark about racism in Finland is because there is not enough reported on it in the Finnish media nor do politicians appear very enthused about the whole subject except when possibly pointing out how bad immigration/refugees are to Finland.
The Irwin Goodman song is shameful and a good example of Finnish racism. The weird thing about the clips you show is that some people in this country think, as you pointed out, that it is totally normal to make fun of other cultures.
Jaakko
October 25, 2009
“In the “Ruusu Show” they have a Finnish guy in blackface as a Somali. This is not satire…this is hardcore racism on legitimate Finnish TV. Blackface was erased from legitmate media channels in Western Europe and North America long ago.”
I think you are missing the point in that video. If you check out other Ruusu Show videos you’ll notice there are also guests like a homosexual and a poor. All the guests are reasonable people and try to answer politely to the questions while the host is being an uncivilized douche. He’s white, straight, macho, probably loves to eat saucage and watch ice hockey. It’s him who is the fool in those scetches. The funniness comes when he acts like a cave man and asks idiotic questions based on stereotypes and thinks he’s being totally appropriate.
The whole show is based on inappropriate and daring jokes and language. There are characters like swearing bishop who talks about seducing young women and tells a priest to sleep with his funeral participants and a neighbour who starts a brothel into his friends appartment.
I have nothing to say about skinheads. They are just dimwitted idiots who think it’s cool to scream heil hitler. Lost sheep like all other kinds of gang members.
Enrique
October 25, 2009
Hello Jaakko, even if we may have missed the point, it is odd that someone would find this humorous. I was at an info gathering organized by Tekes last week and was a bit surprised to hear the British speaker, a man over 55, cracking jokes about different ethnic groups in Europe. One of the questions that arose is if these types of “jokes” are generational. Would a younger person have bothered to over generalize about Germans, Italians, Russians in a way that made one wonder. Even though he stated at the end that “thank you for understanding British humor,” I don’t think it was.
JW
October 25, 2009
Hi Jaakko, thanks for your comment. I did get the point that the host is supposed to represent an “uncivilized douche”. But that doesn’t mean that it is taken that way. The show inadvertently legitimizes the “uncivilized douche” as a sort of folk hero. I found the video posted on a neo-nazi/white power web site…those white power types are very enthusiastic about the video…they loved it. Similarly, white power types love “Mutakuono ja lakupelle” and they take it literally. Do they see the irony or satire in it? Yes, they do. But satire in fact legitimizes a reality.
Jaakko
October 25, 2009
“I was at an info gathering organized by Tekes last week and was a bit surprised to hear the British speaker, a man over 55, cracking jokes about different ethnic groups in Europe. One of the questions that arose is if these types of “jokes” are generational. Would a younger person have bothered to over generalize about Germans, Italians, Russians in a way that made one wonder.”
Yes they do jokes like that. And I don’t see why anybody should be offended by them. In Finland people love to tell ‘a Finn, a Norwegian and a Swede did this and that’ -jokes. And the fuel of those jokes is made of generalizations. Finns joke about the Swedish being gay and unmanly, Swedes make ‘Drunken and shy Finn’ jokes. Still you don’t see war going on between these Nations, in fact Swedes and Finns get very well along. I don’t mind if somebody tells jokes about Finns.
How about this joke:
‘Heaven is a place where the police are English; the chefs are Italian; the car mechanics are German; the lovers are French and it’s all organized by the Swiss.
Hell is a place where the police are German; the chefs are English; the car mechanics are French; the lovers are Swiss and it’s all organized by the Italians.’
It’s funny. It does say that English food sucks, the French don’t understand cars and Italians are unorganized. Should this joke therefore be banned? I don’t think so. Every joke can offend somebody but it would be madness to criminalize every blond, gay, engineer, Swede, Jesus, Muhammed, artilleryman, bass guitar player, Soviet Union, political, American, suicide bomber etc. joke.
Neonazis may use those jokes for their own purpose, it is true. Finnish nazis may also use Sibelius’ Finlandia, Speden Spelit game episode, Nokia, Kalevala, Mika Häkkinen’s old shirt or Finlandia vodka as a symbol of Finnish nationalism. They use a swastika to express Finnish nationalism and heil Hitler shouts, even if nazi-Germany considered Finns to be mongols and not pure humans.
They can read the Bible like thousands groups before them and find phrases which seem to support nazi movement, no matter if Jesus was a Jew living in middle East two thousand years ago, who told people to love their enemies. You can read Helsingin Sanomat and find secret messages from Martians if you really want to. It’s not about the tool being used, it’s about the tools who use it. Like guns don’t kill people, people with guns do.
JW
October 25, 2009
I don’t think those jokes you mentioned should be banned. And I know that people will use anything as tool. Skinheads might use Sibelius’s Finlandia, and that’s just sad. But there’s nothing about Sibelius’s Finlandia that would naturally support racism. Irwin Goodman’s “Mutakuono ja lakupelle” does lend itself quite naturally to racist ideology.
Tiwaz
October 26, 2009
-”But why should a daily care about immigrants if they are small fry in this country demographically.”
Because that small fry has tendency to cause problems way above it’s demographical portion of population?
-”If you want my opinion, the big problem are people like you who do not understand that diversity is a natural matter in all Western societies.”
False. Problem are people like you who refuse to accept fact that diversity you try to support is unnatural for human society.
Human society works and thrives on unity. Because without social cohesion there is no cooperation and without cooperation those who have power will run over squabbling little tribes.
THAT is what made Rome powerful in it’s days. It was one cohesive society which ran over Gaul tribes who had numerical and home field advantage, but no cohesion.
Current multiculturalism is not natural to Western societies, it is unnatural and artificial construct of idealists and philosophers who fail understanding of practical world. They are just good at selling their BS.
-”Diversity is the mainstay of our democratic system and not some rubber stamp that approves everything the government says as in the past.”
No, democracy is not in any way dependent on diversity. You again try to push your multiculturalism where it does not belong. Democracy is simply method where majority makes the calls. What majority wants, goes.
It is in fact the very opposite of your thinking, because you see it as good to have tyranny of minority where minorities receive preferential treatment. It is another unnatural condition which, as proven by history, only leads to situation where minority will sooner or later end up dethroned with violence.
French monarchy was tyranny of minority. It ended with lots of heads chopped off. Rwanda had long standing tradition of favoring minority over majority. It ended with slaughter.
“I am surprised that you want Finland to return to the cold war days when the political thinking was simple: we have a terrible neighbor and we must use it to reap domestic political benefits like keeping Kokoomus in the opposition for about 20 years.”
This in turn is you trying to put words into my mouth. I actually would prefer to see SDP/RKP in opposition for decade or two. Those are parties which do least to improve situation for Finland. RKP will support anything as long as useless piece of past like Swedish language is in no way removed from way of more useful languages.
SDP in turn is so eager to waste Finnish money abroad that it is not even funny, along with idiots supporting multiculturalism. Kokoomus DOES have serious problem in it’s eagerness to embrace the stupidity of multiculturalism.
PS IS indeed nice breath of fresh air in their ability to criticize the failure known as multiculturalism. But as they have no solutions for anything else they are yet another one trick pony which is useless for Finland in long term. Same as Greens who idiotically oppose nuclear power “just because”.
Enrique
October 26, 2009
-Yes they do jokes like that. And I don’t see why anybody should be offended by them. In Finland people love to tell ‘a Finn, a Norwegian and a Swede did this and that’ -jokes. And the fuel of those jokes is made of generalizations. Finns joke about the Swedish being gay and unmanly, Swedes make ‘Drunken and shy Finn’ jokes. Still you don’t see war going on between these Nations, in fact Swedes and Finns get very well along. I don’t mind if somebody tells jokes about Finns.
I still think they are in bad taste and offensive. It depends, of course, what your audience is. But take for example the Italians and the stereotype it portrays. Italians have one of the most developed economies in the world so how could they be portrayed as disorganized? I am certain if you did a study, probably it would show that jokes about blacks went down drastically after the civil rights movement. As a conclusion, they only promote stereotypes about others.
Moreover, many of my friends and colleagues are journalists in England. Very few ever spent a lot of energy of mocking at other groups. It is just considered in bad taste.
Enrique
October 26, 2009
–I don’t think those jokes you mentioned should be banned. And I know that people will use anything as tool. Skinheads might use Sibelius’s Finlandia, and that’s just sad. But there’s nothing about Sibelius’s Finlandia that would naturally support racism. Irwin Goodman’s “Mutakuono ja lakupelle” does lend itself quite naturally to racist ideology.
JW, it would be ridiculous to ban jokes, even if they were racist and promote stereotypes. Social pressure and the historic period (what social norms are in vogue) are far more effective.
Enrique
October 26, 2009
–False. Problem are people like you who refuse to accept fact that diversity you try to support is unnatural for human society.
Even though it is your right to be the devil´s advocate in all that I say, it is here where you are off course. Your hermetically sealed monocultural society does not exist. Those type of societies you can still find in the jungles of Borneo or the Amazons. Even so, they too came from somewhere and learned cultural traits from other groups.
–SDP in turn is so eager to waste Finnish money abroad that it is not even funny, along with idiots supporting multiculturalism. Kokoomus DOES have serious problem in it’s eagerness to embrace the stupidity of multiculturalism.
If you ask my opinion, I do not really think these parties have a clear position on the role of immigrants in Finland. They are only rough ideas.
When you speak of multiculturalism, do you mean a society with many cultures? I would like to remind you that Finland is not officially a multucltural country but may have sensibilities in this respect.
JW
October 26, 2009
I am not sure what Rome is being spoken of, but one thing is for sure: one of the most interesting features of the Roman Empire was its vast diversity.
A small quote from Rome historian Professor Andrew Wallace-Hadrill (Sidney Sussex College, Cambridge.):
“One of the most astonishing features of the Roman Empire is the sheer diversity of the geographical and cultural landscapes it controlled. It was a European empire in the sense that it controlled most of the territory of the member states of the present EU, except part of Germany and Scandinavia…But above all the unity lay in the reality of participation in central power by those from the surrounding regions. Just as the emperors themselves came not just from Rome and Italy, but Spain, Gaul, North Africa, the Danubian provinces, and the Near East, so the waves of economic prosperity spread over time outwards in ripples.”
In some cases Rome squashed cultural diversity, in other cases they absorbed it. In any case, one ought to be cautious in making comparisons between the Roman Empire and modern Western democracies…very different context, epoch, and governing systems.
JW
October 26, 2009
Let’s not forget that Finnish history itself has been shaped by a lot of people who either didn’t speak Finnish or didn’t speak it well. For example, Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim, revered military commander and the sixth president of Finland, did not speak Finnish until his late 50s..and even then he didn’t speak so well. His native tongue was Swedish, and he learned Russian, French, English, and German long before he ever began learning Finnish. His family had immigrated from Germany to Sweden, and then some of them moved to Finland.
OnOurOwn
October 26, 2009
It looks like Finland has been defeated by foreign invasion. Why can’t foreigners fix their own nations? Why do they have to invade and ruin Finland?
Multiculturalism = Failure
Enrique
October 26, 2009
OnOurOwn, have you ever been to Finland? I would not call 2.5% of the population comprising of immigrants anywhere near of being an “invasion.” The “invasion” you are referring to appears to be in between your ears.
Jaakko
October 26, 2009
Fazer was a second-generation immigrant, born in Helsinki. His father came from Switzerland
Tiwaz
October 27, 2009
-”Even though it is your right to be the devil´s advocate in all that I say, it is here where you are off course. Your hermetically sealed monocultural society does not exist. Those type of societies you can still find in the jungles of Borneo or the Amazons. Even so, they too came from somewhere and learned cultural traits from other groups.”
Monocultural societies have existed for ages and still do. This does not mean there are no foreign influences, your failure is in assuming that if you eat spaghetti it means you are multicultural.
Finland is strongly monocultural, just like Japan for example. It is homogenous and unified society with one clear cultural set of rules which applies to everyone.
Yes, Finnish culture adds bits and pieces from foreign cultures. Nobody has denied that! But what is essential for you and everyone else to understand that ONLY FINNS can choose what and how is added to Finnish culture.
In most cases those effects are changed and adjusted to fit more properly to Finnish mentality. Because everything added must fit in with everything which already exists.
-”When you speak of multiculturalism, do you mean a society with many cultures? I would like to remind you that Finland is not officially a multucltural country but may have sensibilities in this respect.”
It does not matter what Finland is officially. What matters is that social cohesion is being degraded by people trying to claim that in Finland it should be A-OK to act as if you were living in darkest Africa.
It just cannot work. Finland is not Somalia, things which work in Somalia do not work in Finland. Never can work. So what should be told to immigrants instead of multiculturalism sensibly or officially, is that they MUST ADJUST.
It does not matter how valuable part of immigrants culture something is, if it conflicts with Finnish culture it must go.
Finland is small country. We do not have room for having same kind of horrible mess as USA or UK have made with their little multicultural societies where you have pockets of this next to pockets of that and both fight with each other.
Because that is what happens when two completely different cultures meet. Either one submits to other, or they end up in fight.
-”But at the end their empire also vanished as other empires did in history as they all thought they would exist forever and are superior towards others…”
And do you know why they fell? Because their social cohesion and unity fell apart.
-”In some cases Rome squashed cultural diversity, in other cases they absorbed it. In any case, one ought to be cautious in making comparisons between the Roman Empire and modern Western democracies…very different context, epoch, and governing systems.”
In cases where cultural differences did not conflict with Roman way of life, it was permitted. But anything considered against Roman way of life was radically suppressed.
You have to remember that everywhere there was one set of laws above all else, Roman law. Roman citizens were class above the rest as well, that was one incentive to have auxilia in Roman military. Military service grants citizenship.
And not only that, but regions were romanized through dissolution of legions. Legionaries who were involved in conquest had good chance of being granted land in conquered regions. Out of this stock Rome could choose it’s administrators, leading to having solid core of reliable culturally Roman citizens in most corners of empire. Those emperors you mention, how many of them were 100% regional?
For example emperor Trajan. Born in Hispania, modern Spain. Was he spaniard? No, he was born as Marcus Ulpius Traianus. Son or Roman senator, also born in Spain. But his family originated from Italy. So was mother of Trajan Roman ethnically and culturally.
So, Rome was not quite as multicultural as we like to think. They did permit conquered people to have their way of life, but it was always clear that Rome and Roman way held supremacy.
Of course, as you say, times change. But humanity does not.
Lack of unity and cohesion is biggest reason why nations fall and suffer. Because that creates the dividing lines along which conflicts are born.
ReasonToRacism
October 27, 2009
This is copy from http://www.adressit.com/rosvotkuriin tranlated by using google translate.
——————————————————-
Recently, we have read alarming news about the ethnic violence. Even a multi-cultural ideology in the name of eyes can no longer close to the real situation. Below a few facts about the picked over Europe (below, numbered in the sources):
Danish police in Copenhagen according to the 2003 robbery was 80% and 64% of violent crimes made by immigrants (1).
German Chancellor Angela Merkel has said that the German pilot of a multicultural nation has failed because of the entrants did not even intend to adapt to the prevailing practices (2).
Ethnic unrest in the Netherlands have removed an earlier sense of security (3).
Norwegian police have released a statistic that immigrants in Oslo, made 65% of all rapes (4).
Stockholm’s chief of police, Carin Götblad, has already publicly warned of the sudden in the hands of immigrants on crime (5).
In Finland, foreigners have been over-represented in crime statistics(6). This phenomenon is reflected,at least in Helsinki and Turkuso it is not just a few isolated case (7).
Also in Rovaniemi, asylum seekers, almost half the crimes committed. (8)
Finland irresponsible liberal line differs from the currently completely from the other Nordic countries (9)
We demand prison for crimes, or convicted of crimes uusivia banish their home country immediately (regardless of nationality).
In Finland, there are criminals of their own or do not want foreigners here rapists, robbers, and other crimes robbers, and other crimes pahoinpitelijöitä mills persons.
It is so easy to elites or the UN tut-tut banish future conditions in the home, etc. but if you can not live human beings in our country, so why should we worry about heir futures? If for example we have given asylum to the refugee and good will he use the wrong example, robbing, raping or by any other criminal activity should immediately banish him
Many criminals Finnish prison conditions are like hotel or vacation real punishment would be a Banish.
It is unfortunate that such Helsinki, are no longer able to walk in peace without the fear of being robbed by …. and the same applies to many other cities
We Finns have been tolerated by some terrorist groups hyyssäämistä and the sound of his own at the expense of our well-being and must be stopped! Let us hope that as many as possible to sign this and the matter may be brought forward so we can show what the power-media-qualified Finnish = nation thinks.
(1) “Unge indvandrere slår i afmagt, Berlingske Tidende, (17.7.2003).
(2), Yle News (18.11.2005)
(3) “Dutch desert their changing country,” the Daily Telegraph (11.12.2004).
4) “Oslo rape statistics shock”, Aftenposten (5.9.2001)
5) “Stockholm police officer warns of immigrants on crime”, Helsingin Sanomat (25.10.2005).
(6) “The police set up a special group of street robberies” and Ilta-Sanomat (7.9.2005)
7) Statistics, 1980-2004 Crime nationality.
8) “Asylum-seekers among the hundreds of criminals,” MTV3 News Archive (28.12.2005)
(9) “Finland differs from an open line on asylum,” Helsingin Sanomat (8.11.2005)
bandits under control
——————————————————
So please don’t misunderstand us fins we just want get rid from beggars and criminals cos why we would need useless people who don’t want work. There is much people who tries get to Finland by lying or by illegal ways to come here.
My point is PLEASE leave from Finland if you cannot get job, don’t want learn speaking finish or don’t want to study WE don’t need more useless beggars and criminals WE want people who can behave and be good citizen. I don’t want see my tax money going to get more these useless guys to our precious country. I don’t hate you or love you I just want see better Finland with less crimes
Enrique
October 27, 2009
Hi ReasontoRacism, that is a pretty odd name. Could you explain why you use it? Thank you for your points, which I am certain some of our readers will agree with you.
One of the first arguments that I will flatly disagree with you is the one on our so-called “multi-cultural” countries. Officially, there is only one official multicultural country in Europe (England) that practices this form of integration as a social policy. While I have never denied that immigration will lead Finland to a period of honky-dory affluence, immigration does solve a lot of problems, especially in the economic and demographic sense.
In every country where there are social problems among immigrants as with the rest of society that are NOT excluded. This, I believe, is due to the failure of THE SYSTEM that has brought them to such a situation. I am surprised that you can infer that people who do not find work in Finland should move elsewhere. So that is how you want to handle incompetence by our officials and politicians who let people in without have any idea on how to integrate them. The high unemployment, the exclusion, racism has a lot to with failed policies in many countries.
Moreover, your suggestion is a no-brainer because it does not solve anything. All you are saying is kick the “bad guys” out and not offering any other effective solution like the state taking an absolute, no-tolerance-to-racism-and-discrimination stance. I believe that a favorable climate where immigrants can integrate and be a part of our society is many times more effective than this “find-work-or- get-out-of-our-country” stance has. I think if you will find this type of action taken in countries that have little respect for democracy and human rights.
It is also unfortunate that you have not yet smelled the coffee: we live in a globalized world where people move about. There is no return to Finland of the 1960s or 1970s, when seeing a foreigner was like finding a needle in a haystack. Immigrants work and live in countries and contribute to society. In your view of matters, immigrants will be always be under suspicion and will have to prove themselves to people like you. It is a bit like throwing a bone at emaciated and irritated pack of dogs.
When you speak of crimes by foreigners, how many are we speaking of in terms of the WHOLE population?
Thank you, anyway, for sharing your thoughts with us.
ReasonToRacism
October 27, 2009
If you don’t live here at Finland you don’t understand how huge problem these guys are. What I mean people who don’t have work, home ect… usually for surviving here become criminal. We take too much people, and Finland isn’t ready yet for that. It is difficult to sort these “bad” guys from “good” guys and to say simple these bad guys uses us and don’t even shame when they stoles from us who had to had pay for get home and food for em. It is shame people who really needs shelter from Finland cant get here cos these “bad” guys got ticket first from idiot who did believe lame story from that beggar. We should investigate more people before letting them come here.
Cos of crimes they commit we fear them and don’t trust anymore foreigners at all/very little after we learn more from that person we start trusting more little by little and learn hes good guy and there isn’t anything to fear. If we wouldn’t have any problems caused by immigrants there could be less racism in Finland. We are shy and quiet people you know
The rotten heart of problems is crimes caused by immigrants. And crimes sews seeds of distrust towards foreigners
only one positive thing is our police does have tons of work because of them.
Because of 200 apes we have bigger problems all ready
I’m 17 old student and I’m at career college studying electrician and being at high school at same time and I’m very honest person.
Ps: Stop talking from food we live 2009!! its annoying when adult people argue about food and its very embarrassing -__-
JW
October 27, 2009
Historically, Finnish speaking Finns have alone have decided very little as to the fate of Finland strickly speaking. Russian and Swedish policy has had much more to say. And let’s not forget about the former Soviet Union. Finland was bound by the YYA treaty to the Soviet Union. Kekkonen attempted to make Finland appear independant, but he always had his ear in Moscow, and everyone knew that (“Finlandization”). And not long after that, Finland joined a mega-state, the EU. The EU is gaining more and more power and influence; the EU decides much more than the average Finn seems to be aware of. The argument that ‘only Finns decide for Finland’ sounds a bit like some of the people in the Southern American states prior to the American civil war. Or Alabama in the 50s. And we know what happened. Finns decide a lot of local things for sure, but many of the far-reaching socio-political policies are decided by international committees. If you don’t believe that or realize that, then you are living in a cloud of false dreams. Finns voted to be part of the EU, and so Finns are expected to comport themselves in line with member states. And that’s what a lot of people on this board are evaluating: whether Finland is in line with international standards of human decency.
Someone suggested that socio-political changes occur in Finland to adjust for Finnish mentality. That is completely false. Most of the policy decided locally and abroad has been in fact contrary to local custom and mentality…that’s why the policy was enacted! A few of the more educated Finns in power realize that, for that is their ticket to survival. They know, for example, that a small state is a big target.
Enrique
October 27, 2009
Hi ReasonToRacism, thank you for your new post. You did not explain the history behind your odd name. I do live in Finland and know this country pretty well. However, I do not see immigration as a huge problem. I see the high unemployment as a big time bomb that is ticking away.
If you are 17 years old, I am a bit surprised that you have such strong feelings about immigrants. It is sad because people at your age should be bold and learn to know the world. Such a task is harder if you think that some people outside this country are a threat. I am certain that if you tried to understand the challenges some immigrants have, probably your whole world outlook would change pretty rapidly.
I am speaking of racism in general terms and do not point the finger at anyone. However, at some talks I give I ask why racism is a bad matter. Dumb question, right? Well, the answer is that it makes your view of the world much smaller and limited. You will never be able to know the beauty that other cultures have to offer because we build walls of suspicion around us.
Tiwaz
October 28, 2009
-”In every country where there are social problems among immigrants as with the rest of society that are NOT excluded. This, I believe, is due to the failure of THE SYSTEM that has brought them to such a situation. I am surprised that you can infer that people who do not find work in Finland should move elsewhere. So that is how you want to handle incompetence by our officials and politicians who let people in without have any idea on how to integrate them. The high unemployment, the exclusion, racism has a lot to with failed policies in many countries.”
No, this has been proven to be false before on point of exclusion and so forth.
FAILURE IS FAILURE OF IMMIGRANTS NOT FAILURE OF FINLAND.
Statistics for educated and integrating immigrants on unemployment are nearly same as for Finns, and in some cases BETTER.
Immigrants who have employment issues are themselves to blame for their situation.
They have no education, they do not bother learning language, they do not bother learning local culture. Such people are useless. We do not need illiterate goat herders, we need people who have SKILLS, who can communicate with FINNS IN WAY PREFERRED BY FINNS.
Only part where you are correct is that we must also blame the officials. Actually, we must blame officials who buy into multiculturalism bullshit.
Way to solve this problem is twofold.
First, no citizenship granted without good Finnish skills.
Second, citizenship must be achieved within certain period or you are deported.
Exceptions would be in place naturally for EU citizens and those non-EU citizens who have employer who applies for exception for worker.
This achieves two things. First, it gives foreigners whole new motivation to actually work to get their language skills into order.
And second, it removes from Finland those who fail to do so.
Moving to Finland and living here is not right, it is privilege and should be treated as one.
-”While I have never denied that immigration will lead Finland to a period of honky-dory affluence, immigration does solve a lot of problems, especially in the economic and demographic sense.”
How can you justify fixing couple temporary and irrelevant problems by introducing huge amount of permanent and crippling problems through unintegrated immigrants?
Immigration does not solve any permanent problems, but as proven by cases where immigrants are not forced to integrate it does INCREASE problems of society.
So net effect of immigration without making them integrate is NEGATIVE. Multiculturalism is just such system, thus it’s total effect on society is NEGATIVE.
-”When you speak of crimes by foreigners, how many are we speaking of in terms of the WHOLE population? ”
DISPROPORTINATE AMOUNT!
That is the problem. Foreigners punch way above their statistical portion of population in crimes.
It is clear proof that something is seriously wrong with group itself when it represents measly percent of population but can be guilty of double digit percentage of crime.
Stop trying to whitewash the issue.
-”Ok, from now on I will say that all Finns are criminals if one Finn commits a crime (sounds a bit stupid, isn’t it?).”
You are purposefully idiot hoping that people are stupid enough to fall to your rhetoric.
One Finn out of 5 million commits crime, it is individual. If 100 out of 10 000 immigrants commit crime, it is proof of something being wrong with whole immigrant group.
Finns provide the measuring stick against which foreigners must perform. And in many cases foreigners outshine Finns dramatically in committing crimes.
Enrique
October 28, 2009
–No, this has been proven to be false before on point of exclusion and so forth.
I would be fascinated at looking at such a study that proves that it is all the immigrants’ fault. Could you tell me the source? But I do agree that there are also other factors at play such a qualifications, language etc. Even so, if you do not give people the light of day, it is very hard for them to even succeed minimally.
–That is the problem. Foreigners punch way above their statistical portion of population in crimes.
I believe that people at ministries and the police want to highlight this because they think immigration is negative. It is the same argument that they used 30 years ago: Finland must keep its doors closed to immigration (this has now changed because we are EU members) because we want to keep criminals from coming to our country.
Todd S
October 28, 2009
Hi people,
Since I see some posts referencing the multiculturalism of America, I thought I’d offer my thoughts. I’m from America, and I have been living in the Helsinki area for five years. I’ve got a lot of Finnish friends (and a Finnish wife!), and for the most part I really like Finland — except the food (hehe!). Actually, real home-cooked Finnish food is great.
As far as racism is concerned, I have not noticed Finns being any more or less racist than the average American. The main difference is that Americans have an easier time talking about it — or any other issue for that matter. Americans in general are just more talkative. Growing up we are encouraged to chat, small talk, and debate. That’s sort of the key to success in the states. I’ve noticed that Finns have a tendency not to talk so much, and maybe at times it seems that they sort of push problems “under the carpet.” I might be wrong, but that’s what it seems like sometimes. I don’t mean to sound harsh toward Finns…I really like most Finns…they have been good to me. And Finland is great place to live.
As far as multiculturalism is concerned, I’d say it’s a mixed bag. On the one hand, there is no question that America has prospered as a result of its diverse population. Different cultures mean different ideas, which leads to innovation. America has a spirit of innovation and I think diversity has helped to fuel that. We can better see the different shades and colors of life, and bounce ideas off one another and learn in ways that are very enlightening.
On the other hand, there’s a lot of tension with multicultural environments, and in many cases outright violence. My university professors, those who usually speak about the benefits of multiculturalism, often overlook the real issues on the street. In a nutshell, they say, for example, that multiculturalism is great, and that if whites would just be more accepting things would be wonderful. But at the end of the day — when school is out — you see them driving home in their nice cars to their upscale rich *white* neighborhoods. In other words, they say diversity is great but the only diversity they see is on TV or in the class. They don’t have any idea what it’s like to actually live in these environments. In Los Angeles, for example, racism can be pretty bad in some places…but it’s mostly blacks against Latinos. Middle and upper-class whites tend to move out of diverse areas.
Thus I can understand why Finns are a bit skeptical of multiculturalism. Multiculturalism has a lot of good points, but it sure brings with it a lot of problems. I do think people in Finland would benefit from looking for constructive ways of talking about racism and multiculturalism. The world is, after all, a diverse place, and we need to find a way of discussing these sensitive issues without resorting to name calling.
Enrique
October 28, 2009
Hi Todd S, thank you for your post and welcome to Migrant Tales. The whole idea that we can gather strength from diversity is still a pretty foreign idea in some countries in Europe such as Finland. In a way it is unfortunate because a whole society cal lose an opportunity. Like any social phenomenon, immigration brings its shares of challenges. Even so, in the United States, the positive impact of immigration (economic) must outweigh the negative ones (social).
Tiwaz
October 29, 2009
-”I would be fascinated at looking at such a study that proves that it is all the immigrants’ fault. Could you tell me the source?”
Do you have any RELIABLE study that shows that it is Finnish fault? Or are you above proving your claims?
-”But I do agree that there are also other factors at play such a qualifications, language etc. Even so, if you do not give people the light of day, it is very hard for them to even succeed minimally.”
Can you PROVE that there is such racsim? And I expect proof to be something more than asking anonymous somali “are you target of racism in Finland”. I expect every claim to be VERIFIED.
Because, guess what, just yesterday I was in a store… And do you know what I saw there? Black guy talking to white couple, clearly friends. Now, here is the catch… Couple were Finns, black guy was their friend. And spoke excellent Finnish. And guess what, black guy was WORKING at the store.
What do you think contributed most to this guy being accepted to work in supermarket?
Could it be… Oh I do not know… Capability to communicate with over 90% of customers in their preferred language?
-”I believe that people at ministries and the police want to highlight this because they think immigration is negative. It is the same argument that they used 30 years ago: Finland must keep its doors closed to immigration (this has now changed because we are EU members) because we want to keep criminals from coming to our country.”
Bullshit.
Ministries and police are trying to HIDE this fact, because it flies firmly in the face of established “we are enriched by multiculturalism”-mantra.
Police for one is so hamstrung by political correctness they have to give insufficient information when trying to get help to solve crime. Instead of saying flat out that “Chinese looking” “somali looking” or something like that which would be useful, they have to say “foreigner”.
If government could, they would deny even that little piece of information to be given out.
-”Even so, in the United States, the positive impact of immigration (economic) must outweigh the negative ones (social).”
Questionable. What is considered “golden age” of USA was when there was minimal multiculturalism and strong WASP culture in USA. Today USA is in steady decline sped up by internal problems due to multiculturalism.
Furthermore, looking at USA is idiotic. USA is country which has little to no history as society.
Whole continent was not found until 15th century.
My SO has in her home plague which was given to her father in recognition of her family having farmed that same piece of land since first half of 16th century.
USA is nothing like Europe, so saying things which work in USA could ever work in Europe is honestly stupid.
Same is true for opposite of course. USA lacks existing cultural and social cohesion that they could ever have similar social structures which Europeans find self evident.
Tiwaz
October 29, 2009
And xyz, seen that article. And it is load of crap.
Besides which, I do not see point why trying to get as many foreigners as possible to Finland should be some kind of goal in itself?
That is the spirit we see today. We must be multicultural and get lots of foreigners for sake of being multicultural and having lots of foreigners.
Now, I may be old school way of thought but for me BENEFITS of being multicultural and having lots of foreigners should determine if we should have those things in our society. And benefits just are not there.
fromabroad
October 29, 2009
Hi XYZ, you bring up some good points. The Finnish government has been trying to attract foreign talent, and the English language programs are a good example of that.
Finns voted to join to the EU, which of course meant a more fluid flow of people from many different places. If Finns were not aware that EU membership meant a more international environment, then that’s their problem for not doing the proper research before voting. Finnish leaders I think knew exactly what they were doing when they joined…maybe they forgot to tell Finnish citizens that more foreigners would be coming…who knows.
I am here in Finland working in international relations with the Finnish government and Finnish businesses. And I can tell you for sure that Finland will continue to become more diverse in the future. It’s going to happen, trust me. Finnish leaders know this. The big question for Finnish leaders is how they are going to set the tone for discussions on these matters. Unfortunately they have been a bit silent, which has left a sort of void in the press. This has in turn opened the door to a lot of hostile rhetoric.
I think Finnish leaders realize that a more international environment is important for innovation and properity. Although Finland continually ranks high in quality of life and other measures, Finland nevertheless continues to experience brain drain. It’s well known that far more people leave Finland than come. And a lot of those who leave are highly skilled technicians and intellectuals. A more international environment is the key to stopping this costly hemorrhage. Nokia, for example, knows this. Much of the innovation going on in Nokia is the result of Polish, American, etc. engineers and experts working with the company. And Nokia is a HUGE part of the Finnish economy. There are many more companies, too, in Finland that rely heavily on international talent. And these companies are looking for ways of keeping and attracting international work forces.
Jaakko
October 29, 2009
“Although Finland continually ranks high in quality of life and other measures, Finland nevertheless continues to experience brain drain. It’s well known that far more people leave Finland than come. And a lot of those who leave are highly skilled technicians and intellectuals.”
That information is false. 13 650 people left Finland when 29 100 came in, so the influx was almost twice as big. And I believe Finland experiences brain drain exactly because we rank high in quality of life, education, etc. We give high education to more people there is need for.
EU has brought Finland lots of good things, including free moving inside EU borders and more internationality. Internationality for the most parts is a good thing. That’s not what Finns are worried about. It’s the minority of newcomers causing problems that concerns many. If one doesn’t like criminals, rapists, system abusers, chauvinists, oppressors, conmen or fundamental radicals to come to his neighborhood, doesn’t mean he doesn’t want to live with ordinary students, employees, entrepreneurs, politicians or housewifes.
Jaakko
October 29, 2009
made a mistake there. There were more than twice as many people coming in than there were people leaving, in 2008.
Todd S
October 29, 2009
Hi fromabraod, I think since the 80s Finnish immigration has exceeded emigration. I think what you might be refering to is the issue is that educated people are leaving faster than they are coming. In any case, the immigrants are definately helping the Finnish economy. I quote from Statistics Finland (http://www.stat.fi/tup/suomi90/joulukuu_en.html):
“On the 90th anniversary of her independence Finland has the world’s fastest ageing population. The Baby Boomers are retiring, and the lengthened life expectancy will increase the size of the elderly population in the coming years. The effects from the population development that has gone on for decades are now becoming visible: because the fertility rate has already stayed below the reproduction rate for a generation, more people are exiting working age than entering it. The diminished supply of labour will inadvertently lead to labour shortage.
As matters stand, the shortage of labour can only be solved by attracting labour from abroad. Otherwise the inescapable consequences will be reduced labour force and declining economy. There will not be enough tax payers to sustain the rapidly rising number of pensioners. The growth in the number of elderly people not only means risen pension expenditure but also increased need for health care and other services. How the future will shape up will largely depend on the development of immigration into Finland.”
Tiwaz
October 30, 2009
-”Well, ask your government why they are offering English Degree programs in Finland if they are useless. Maybe they can give you an answer? And after being a student for 3-5 years in Finland there are maybe some reasons why a foreigner wants to stay in Finland.
Same for people who may come here for a lets say 2 years work contract. By the time they have maybe build up a social network here. Found a Finnish girlfriend/boyfriend or got married (a benefit for those Finns who found somebody).”
So who is kicking them out? They leave voluntarily because they cannot adjust to real life in Finland. Say, learning Finnish to become employable. Short of some niche areas, you just can’t find a job in Finland without speaking Finnish. But most immigrants and students fail to use their time fruitfully and LEARN that language.
-”Look at all those different Restaurants run by foreigners or the world village festival in Helsinki. Finns are eating there (another benefit).”
Actually, all we need is someone who knows how to cook. Being foreigner is not necessity. They just gravitate to those jobs because they have no other skills besides cooking their native foods.
And how many of those who do such things actually refuse to adjust to local conditions? Only those who are going out of business.
-”And then again, why are you guys in the EU? If I join the EU then I also have to expect that it is getting a bit more international and things are not working like they did 100 years ago.”
EU has little to do with how things work in Finland. Finland is still Finnish, Finnish language is still prerequisite to work here and understanding Finnish culture is prerequisite to getting things done.
EU changes none of this. Being “international” is just your way to whine that things are not like at home. BRAKING NEWS! WHEN YOU MOVE ABROAD THINGS WILL NEVER BE LIKE AT HOME. ADJUST!
-”
Those who become criminals you can always send home.”
I prefer pre-emptive actions in case of crime. Once woman is raped, nothing will unrape her. But taking hard stance and forcing groups which are disproportionately likely to commit crime to adjust will avoid such things.
-”Finns voted to join to the EU, which of course meant a more fluid flow of people from many different places. If Finns were not aware that EU membership meant a more international environment, then that’s their problem for not doing the proper research before voting. Finnish leaders I think knew exactly what they were doing when they joined…maybe they forgot to tell Finnish citizens that more foreigners would be coming…who knows.”
Except… None of EU membership rules is that we Finns must accept foreign cultures as valid and working in Finland. Finland is still, and will remain for forseeable future, Finnish. EU says people have right to move, EU does not say that people have right to ignore local culture and local worklife requirements.
EU does NOT say that you are entitled to have a job in Finland if you have no useful skills and your communication skills from Finnish point of view are atrociously bad.
As for this theoretized “shortage of labor”. Finnish unemployment has not dropped notably at any point. There is no shortage of labor because there are no jobs to fill!
Furthermore, despite what many rather arrogant immigrants assume, foreigner coming to Finland is NOT entitled to make their own rules. You want to work in Finland, you adjust to demands of Finnish working place.
That means you have to fulfill requirements to work in Finland. That means, you have to have skills and education.
Immigrating people to “fill job shortage” who have no useful skills in Finnish community is idiotic. It just adds more useless social security drains and criminals without solving any problems with possible lack of workforce.
We do not have need for Somalian goat herders. So importing more will NOT help any workforce shortage.
Jobs you can do in Finland without fluent Finnish and no education are exceedingly rare and those positions are easily already filled.
Telecomnow
October 30, 2009
hey everyone…i might be doing a work exchange program in Finland for 6 – 9 months. i can’t decide if i want to go. after reading this blog and few others i am having second thoughts. the finnish people writing here seem like they are very ignorant and closed to things. is this behavior common? reminds me a bit of eastern european countries. maybe its just that the dumb ones are here writing. i am wondering if some of foreigners can recommend to come or not to finland. what i mean is that if you could choose again, would you go to finland? thanks for your help.
intternetnetsi
October 30, 2009
Telecomnow: Well all depends how you settle in, are you one of those ignorant foreigners who dont want to integrate or one with will to integrate even if you dont like some parts of society.
Your reason to come points to later.
Welcome to visit if you have good reason, dont think this is like home and understand you arent anything special. No one is.
Its always hard to go in foreign country and depending of cultural distance it can be from amusing to devastating.
You are one who makes it or dont, if you look different than normal you will have looks when people try to box you, depending on how your countrymans/lookalikes did in here its either good or bad. You can move opinion more positive with your own behaviour.
If youre somali or middle-eastern then i have bad news, bar is highly negative. Others have behaved mainly good.
Most of foreigns i really know and want to know have done well in here, they accepted this isnt home and didnt yell discrimination when you couldnt buy wine after 18.00.
And you also have understand that people wont sit next to you in bus if its possible, or they do, depending what you look like youre probably last and its same for finns. I look like friendly neighbourhough hippie or neonazi depending on if i got hearcut so after filling i somehow attrack 15-30y and 50+ old womans sit next to me.
Neighbours dont chat with you, small nod may be best you get. Its same for finns.
Also remember everyone will ask where you are from, what you do in here and when you plan to return. Where you are from is important to finns so are others, i get that and im finn speaking different dialect.
So dont be afraid, people yelling racism are ones who couldnt grasp that they are in different country. You probably will do fine.
intternetnetsi
October 30, 2009
Enrique didnt i already bashed that “meet more” shit.
He probably had met more than he like.
Enrique
October 31, 2009
–Telecomnow: Well all depends how you settle in, are you one of those ignorant foreigners who dont want to integrate or one with will to integrate even if you dont like some parts of society.
Hannu, this is really a “warning to foreigners if you come to Finland” post.
Telecomnow, I think it all depends on you. There are all types in Finland. However, if you plan to work here it might be a bit tricky since there is already so high unemployment among immigrants in this country. There are better countries in the world where one can progress with less pain towars career and financial stability.
hannu
October 31, 2009
“high unemployment among immigrants”
That you need rephrase. Among immigrant who come as social, others do fine if they have skills needed. Non social immigration countries have almost same unemployment than finns and difference can be explained by marriages when other dont have needed skills.
Yes i changed my nickname to hannu since everyone in here calls me that.
Karo
November 1, 2009
I didn’t call you that.
Telecomnow
November 1, 2009
the unemployment problem in finland won’t affect me if i decide to go to finland. i already have job and my company is offering for me to go to work in finland for 6-9 months with a subsidiary. i don’t have to go if i don’t want to. i am just thinking it for a nice experience in life in another country. but i want to make sure i don’t end up around bunch of backward idiots telling me to “integrate” when i am only going to be in finland for 6-9 months or maybe a year. that’s absurd. most western countries understand that skilled professionals are mobile and use english and are not going to integrate to local things so much (except laws of course). they want rather go to a cosmopolitan country where there are common international culture. That’s why i came to this board to see if things ok in finland. so i thank you for your responses on how finland is. i have to make the decision soon.
hannu
November 1, 2009
“bunch of backward idiots telling me to “integrate” when i am only going to be in finland for 6-9 months or maybe a year.”
Yeah, those “backward idiots” tell you its no use to yell front of ALKO when its closed or in apotechary when you want recipe medicine withouth recipe. Or yell when police stop you to check and if you yell you go in jail for few hours.
Backward idiots maybe also tell you other rules and traditions in finland, you may disagree but thats your problem and no use to yell discrimination when things arent like home.
Thats what i mean by integration.
Youre in deep shit withouth “bunch of backward idiots” who you call finns.
Tiwaz
November 2, 2009
-”Maybe there is a reason why they can not adjust to real life in Finland?”
Then cry me a river. I am not changing my preferred way of life for sake of some foreign fruitcake who can’t handle silence.
-”Then your Universities are not good and prepare students for life here or they don’t really motivate foreigners to learn the language. I know a Research Student who have lived 5 years in Finland and still can’t speak fluent Finnish.”
Our universities place high importance on taking care of your own ass instead of expecting someone to come and cater to their needs.
-”That’s true but I know some Finns who are also working in other countries and don’t speak the local language. So why do they have the privilege and foreigners not?”
Umm… Because that country is not Finland? Because they are in niche jobs for highly sought after specialists who even in Finland have huge amount of liberty to do as they please?
-”Guess there are not many skilled people who want to come then. I mean, I would not spend 3 years here learning the language before I can start working in Finland.”
You would not be missed. We are not going to start tearing apart our quite nice society because foreigners are having issues with handling being away from home.
If you have no skills to compensate your lack of Finnish, then why the hell should you be hired over more qualified person?
-”You always mention Somalians and Middle Eastern people. Beside this, I find it disgusting how you talk about other nationalities. Maybe this is the reason why they also don’t like you? Ever thought about that? And maybe it is because of people like you that they don’t feel motivated to integrate themselves into this society? And If I were you, I would start thinking about individuals and not nationalities in order to evaluate the skills of a person. Or does a Somalian with a Finnish University Degree not have similar skills as a Finnish person? Sounds a bit strange?”
I mention Somalis and Middle Easterners because they are the most problematic groups. They are poorest integrators with biggest cultural baggage they refuse to dump when coming over.
Why would I mention Vietnamese who are integrating very nicely?
As for thinking about individuals over nationalities. Bullshit. You just try to avoid accepting that as a group Somalis are generally more trouble than worth.
You do not handle groups as individuals because they are not individuals even if they are formed of individuals. They are treated as average of the individuals who form the group.
One Somalian with Finnish university degree does not make 99 Somalians without any useful skills but tendency for crime irrelevant.
As for your argument about Somalian with University degree. If they have same skills as Finnish people, they have same skills. But such cases are extremely rare.
You desperately try to paint me as racist because you cannot counter my arguments with valid arguments.
I have nothing against Somalian with Finnish degree and fluent Finnish skills getting a job in Finland. Quite the opposite! Welcome to taxpayer club!
But I do have much against Somalian, who has no useful skills to contribute to this society and no effort to learn to integrate and adjust, whining that they are treated wrongly.
Or ANY foreigner doing that for that matter. I am not fond of Finns doing that either, but sadly for example deporting that kind of Finn would just boomerang them back here, so there is little we can do about those.
hannu
November 3, 2009
““Where you are from is important to finns so are others, i get that and im finn speaking different dialect.”
”
-That sounds like if you have a dialect from Helsinki then you are more skilled than somebody who has a dialect from Rovaniemi
Thats in your imagination.
From book published in 1897 “Through Finland in Carts”
“The peasant asks where you come from the moment he sees you are a stranger, and the better-class folk soon turn the traveller in their midst inside out with questions. They ask not only “Where do you come from ?” but, ” Where are you going ? ” What is your business? “”
That havent changed.
Tiwaz
November 4, 2009
-”You definitely not but take those Finns who are living with a foreigner. ”
Have you heard that those marriages are more likely to end up in divorce than Finn-Finn marriages?
And huge majority of Finns are not married to foreigners. Those who do are the odd ones, not the rest. So society will not and should not appease your foreign ways even if your husband or wife is willing to do so.
-”Well but it seems that they are not even able then to teach their students Finnish. I mean a Research Students who lives in Finland for 5 years and can’t speak fluent Finnish is a good example. What about those people working for Nokia since 20 years and can’t speak Finnish?”
First, as said, University does not give you everything on platter, you have to choose what you study YOURSELF. How is this thing we tend to call something like “responsibility for yourself” so alien to you foreigners?
Can’t you guys for once start to take responsibility for yourself and your decisions? If student decides not to learn Finnish while dredging in the Uni, it is their call. But they should not whine when they finally graduate and nobody bothers to fart in their way because they have no essential skill in Finnish community… Ability to speak Finnish.
Same with those Nokia employees. Good for them that they have job without speaking Finnish. But do NOT come whine when Nokia job cuts hits your way and you find out that nobody else is going to appease your foreigner ass by giving you job without speaking Finnish.
-”If you consider for example hospitality and logistics jobs as a niche job? (Finnish is not required in those jobs by the way where my friends are working).”
What hospitality/logistics works precisely? Hmm? Your friends most likely ARE in small niche positions. How many people like your friends actually work in that company? Do these “no speak”-guys form 1 or 10 percent of total workforce? Or 0,1%?
Tiwaz
November 4, 2009
Damn misclick…
-”hmm I have lived almost my whole life away from home so I think I can handle it.”
Apparently not since you whine so much.
-”But still they are not all the same. The good ones have no chance because of your poor attitude towards a whole group.”
The good ones have no chance because they are doing NOTHING to stop the bad ones. Immigrant communities have very stubborn idea that they do not for example report their criminal elements to police. Instead trying to defend them from rightful prosecution.
If these good ones bothered to think straight, they would realize that their only chance is to make as wide berth as possible to that larger group of their countrymen who are troublemakers and drag them down.
-”Why is is bullshit? If this person has skills what does it has to do with his nationality then? ”
It is bullshit because those skills are USELESS IN FINLAND!
Skills which Somalians have learned in their native land are worthless in Finland! We do not need goat herders! We do not need people who farm land with methods used already during bronze age!
-”Well at least I post some links here with reliable sources. Guess that this counts more…”
Like when? Are your sources, which I off the top of my head cannot remember at all you posting, like ones Enrique posted to “prove” Finnish racism? Ones where they just asked, anonymously, from some Somalis if they have been targets of racism. Without any verification of claims.
-”Maybe because not everybody is able to speak immediately 100% fluent Finnish? And because some lose their motivation because of people like you.”
Cry me a fucking river. Reality sucks for them then. I can’t help it. This is Finland, here communication takes place in Finnish. Too bad if you can’t handle it, may I recommend taking first flight out of here or not coming at all if you can’t handle learning languages?
Or maybe we should start creating shelter jobs for poor immigrants who have issues learning the way of land. One could move paperclips from pile A to pile B, and second move paperclips from pile B to pile A!
And we could pay them 3000€ per month for this! Would this motivate them?
In case you have not figured it out, in Finland we hire people because we need their skills, not because we have to be politically correct. If you have no skills, it is your own problem.
Telecomnow
November 4, 2009
strange things on this blog. i don’t know what is alko and apotechary. i also don’t know why anyone needs a recipe to get medicine. unless you want to make it yourself. i don’t know how do that. and what is this about yelling police? i ask for information about finland because i might go to work there for a 9 months and i get information about police, jail, police checks, deep shitting, and yelling for recipe to make food. what is this place?
Jaakko
November 4, 2009
Alko is the state owned alcohol store where you buy liquor and strong alcohol drinks. Convenience stores aren’t allowed to sell other than mild alcohol drinks. Apotechary is a drug store. Whoever said ‘recipe’ ment ‘prescription’. You can buy everyday products without a prescription, such as cough medicine and normal pain killers, but not big packages which is for preventing drug abusing. Police usually act in a very appropriate way and don’t yell if there’s no need to. It’s not as bad as one might think after reading this blog.
http://www.finlandforum.org if you haven’t already found this forum I suggest you go and ask those guys what it’s like living in Finland, good and bad things.
Todd S
November 4, 2009
Hi Telecommnow,
In Finland, the state has a monopoly on alcohol sales, and the name of the place to buy alcohol ALKO. You can, however, buy beer at the regular store. Apotechary means Apteekki, which in turn means pharmacy.
As far as how things are for foreigners in Finland, I’d say it’s pretty good, though there is room to grow. I am from America and I’ve been living in Helsinki for five years. I have many wonderful Finnih friends and a pretty good life. You shouldn’t have any problems here. I wouldn’t worry about some of the comments on this board…there’s a lot of silly name-calling etc. Most Finns are good people. Finland doesn’t have as many foreigners as most Western countries, which means that you might stand out a bit more in certain places. And some Finns do seem to throw around racial slurs more often than they should…some Finns (not all) don’t seem to realize that they are part of the big world now, and that there are more diplomatic ways of saying things. Many of the business leaders in Finland know this, which is why they hire people like me to teach international communications.
I think you will be welcome here. Many businesses (and the government) are really trying hard to get foreigners to come. Finland has a huge baby boomer population getting ready to retire, and the only way to pay for it is to bring in foreign workers. Foreigners not only help by working and paying taxes, but also by purchasing Finnish goods and services. Oh, and the police are pretty nice; they won’t bother you — unless you start trouble of course.
hannu
November 4, 2009
Now there is new horror story about racism from UK.
Black couple was referred as.. gasp.. black couple!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1224910/Pub-branded-black-couple-ones-dining.html
Enrique
November 4, 2009
Hannu, you make fun of this but for some people this is an insult. It is important to understand and be sensitive about what OTHERS think not what YOU consider appropriate or funny. Isn’t that the first important value that permits mutual respect?
hannu
November 4, 2009
Ok, for mutual respect you shouldn now on use words north, lapp, iron, space, ball and behauviour or anything what resembles those words even a bit. Thats what I think and YOU now on respect.
hannu
November 4, 2009
And i forgot to add that i can add any word, letter, number or symbol in my list what offends me withouth prior warning and its your fault if YOU happend to offend ME with it.
hannu
November 5, 2009
Heres genuine example how intolerant finns are http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_kmkwr6RMs
Tiwaz
November 5, 2009
-”Yeah and thats why I need to get divorced as well in the future. Man you talk so much bs.”
Well, it is BS to you because you are too limited to understand truth when it comes and kicks you in the balls.
Finn-Finn marriages end in divorce at rate of around 50%.
Finn-Foreigner marriages have three times as high odds to end up in divorce compared to Finn-Finn marriage.
-”Why offering English courses at all then? Makes no sense. I know actually 2 more research students here who are also not speaking Finnish. And yes of course they are all stupid and lazy thats why they are at the Uni. And I don’t understand your communication problem? You are also writing in English here. You don’t seem to have a problem with it…”
They offer English courses because there is demand for them. If there are no Finnish courses, it is because your, indeed stupid, student friends and their colleagues do not ask for those.
If there are Finnish courses and they do not attend, then they indeed again are stupid.
There is some bullshit for you idiot.
-”Hopefully some talented foreigner who wants to apply to work for Nokia is reading this and decides to go to another country working for the competition
”
Competition is no different.
Only idiot assumes that company somehow has some responsibility to make sure you could survive in country where you moved after the job they gave you if you were laid off.
And only an idiot does not prepare for chance that they are laid off.
-”Have also some friends in the Netherlands, UAE and China who do not speak the local language and got a job there.”
Again, what kind of job? Foreigner in China is in management position. That is high enough in food chain to be excused for not speaking anything.
And again, this is not China or Netherlands. This is Finland. We do not give a flying fuck if Netherlanders spend most of their time kissing immigrant asses. We do not and that’s it.
-”There is also no good Finn who is stopping you talking crap. Why should they be different?”
How about making some sense. As for Finns. They are rarely protected by their community like foreigners are by their community.
-”Or they didn’t yet discover that they are usefull because they have never tried it out.”
If they have skills they have not tried, it is again their own fault. EVERY wannabe employee has to convince their potential employer of their skills EVERY. There is no way out of it. If you fail to do so, it is your failure to present yourself properly. Not fault of employer to fail to be omniscient.
-”What about second generation Somalians who have studied in Finland? Are they Somalians or Finnish or something in between? What is with those coming from other countries? Somehow I have this feeling that you think that people are still living in caves as soon as you leave Finland.”
Somalians who study in Finland are Finns if they act and talk like Finns. And if they have their papers in order and know how to behave in interview… They will get a job. There is no proof that they would not get a job if they present themselves in a proper way in interview and have necessary skills.
Same for those who come from other countries. Employer decides what he wants to see or hear. Every employee wannabe has to meet that expectation. If foreigner is too stupid to learn what is culturally expected of them in country where they want to apply to… It is again THEIR OWN FAULT.
As for your sources… For example yle-article you posted. Useless dribble without anything useful.
“Foreigners are afraid to leave safety of classroom”. Oh woe on them. Who is to blame again?
Immigrants should just grab themselves by the neck and take the next step. Expecting someone else to do everything for you is sign of being useless.
-”Then they should also send those Finns home working in countries where they also can’t speak the local language. Even more unemployment in Finland then
”
Too bad for you that Finns who move abroad tend to be ones with excellent education who are needed specialists in the country they move into.
Thus, up in the food chain.
As for other countries sending Finns back. Watch me not give a crap. Get this into your head, this is Finland. We are not in any way required to imitate whatever other countries do. We are quite free to make our own decisions based on our own preferences.
If you have a problem with our preferred way of life, fuck off. See us not give a damn if you leave.
-”And what skills do you have? You don’t even have some work experience from another country. How can you judge the quality of work from foreigners? You are not a reference, sorry to say.”
Oh, just some high tech education, experience and so forth. As for work experience, IBM really wanted me to Ireland just couple years ago. Declined back then for family reasons.
And quality of work of foreigners is abysmal in many fields.
If you are qualified and skilled foreigner, Finnish employer WILL hire you if you can convince them of this.
(one essential skill is indeed language and cultural understanding so you know what kind of things Finnish employers want to see and hear)
If you are unskilled idiot, they will not hire you for sake of you being foreigner. You actually have to be able to contribute to company and convince employer that you can contribute.
Enrique
November 5, 2009
–Ok, for mutual respect you shouldn now on use words north, lapp, iron, space, ball and behauviour or anything what resembles those words even a bit. Thats what I think and YOU now on respect.
There is a difference if we look at the Daily Mail story.
Enrique
November 5, 2009
–“And again, this is not China or Netherlands. This is Finland. We do not give a flying fuck if Netherlanders spend most of their time kissing immigrant asses. We do not and that’s it.”
As usual, Tiwaz, you are being too harsh with some of the bloggers. I you know what has happened in the Netherlands, you will understand that they have taken an about-turn on the immigration front. It is demographically a multicultural society where people from all backgrounds speak Dutch but where the ultra right-wing parties have capitalized on the immigrant question. I think in China it must be even worse.
xyz somebody told me that one of the best ways of lowering divorce rates among multicultural marriages is by living in a foreign country to both partners. But as you mentioned, it is important to look at individual cases – not make generalizations.
Tiwaz
November 5, 2009
-”Doesn’t mean that this is also the case for us. As I said look on individuals not on groups.”
Individuals form groups. You are at three times more likely to be divorce individual than I am.
Stop whining about individuals. NEVER in social sciences people are handled as “individuals”. That is because individuals tell us nothing about actual conditions in society. It is averages of groups formed from individuals which matter when looking at the big picture.
I belong to group A, with 50% odds of divorce despite my individualism. You are in group B where your chance of divorce is three times higher than mine.
-”Yes a demand from the student side as after they graduate they can most likely go home. There are Finnish courses here and they do attend but for some reason it does only work out for a few cases that they speak some Finnish afterwards. Seems that all students who get admitted here are lazy. Must be a really difficult entrance exam to get into the Uni
”
So what is your problem? They never planned to stay so why the hell we should give a damn about them? True, right now those students are leeches. But hopefully soon we have tuition fees for foreign students and after that it is irrelevant issue as they stop being weight on Finnish society by paying for their studies.
-”Good warning for those who want to come here. Don’t come here”
I guess you are too thick to notice that layoffs are taking place all over the globe. And none of those employers give a flying fuck about fate of kicked off employees.
But hey! Why let reality stand in your way of Finland hating!
-”Because Finns seems to have the right to work there but then they don’t let foreigners work in their own country. Not really fair, isn’t it?”
Welcome to real world, it is not fair. If some other country decides to fuck up their society it damn sure does not mean we have to follow their bad example.
-”Exactly, and those foreigner communities are so powerful here in Finland.”
I did not know you had to be powerful to lie to police or not tell about criminal you know to police.
Which is what immigrant communities tend to do. Ahmed might be rapist, but his community refuses to report him to police.
-”If they have alredy a certain attitude at an interview against foreigners then it doesn’t matter what skills you have. How come that 3 of my friends attending a Finnish intensive course, have Master Degree and years of work experience and they even find it hard to get a 5 weeks placement which is compulsatory in this course where they work free of charge? Do you think this motivates other people to adapt to this place here? Better go somewhere else.”
Welcome to high competition society. Here everyone and their dog has Masters Degree.
And clearly your friends did not have one ESSENTIAL SKILL.
Rest of your papers can be as good as possible, but if you do not understand the expectations of employer and manage to convince that you fulfill them, you are out of luck!
That is when it is essential to understand the CULTURE OF EMPLOYER! What about this so simple thing is so insanely difficult for you foreigners to grasp?
This is not hattivatti-land, we do not expect same things in interview as they did in hattivatti-land. Learn what is expected HERE and prosper.
-”Maybe they only expect employees to have a Finnish name and look like a Finn. I have an Italian friend struggling here for 2 years, she could speak Finnish and couldnt find anything. She moved to Germany and found a job after 3 weeks. So I don’t think she is stupid.”
Because OBVIOUSLY country with population of 5 million is identical with one with 80 million or whatever it was in last census.
Ever heard of saying about apples and oranges?
-”Most liekly they don’t leave classroom because they can’t find anything or because not everybody learns Finnish over night.”
So learn for another night. Issue in your article, apparently you have not read it, is that they never even try.
-”As I said I dont see logistics and hospitality jobs as a specialist job. And I don’t think that Finnish education is somehow better than any other education in Western Europe.”
Finnish education is top notch, and that is admitted all over Europe. As for logistics and hospitality, you apparently are bit too thick to grasp that saying “hospitality and logistics” does not tell us ANYTHING about what your friends do.
How about telling EXACTLY what your friends do and then we can decide if they are specialists or not. But you do not want to do that, because most likely that would prove that they are some sort of specialists.
-2So you never made the step because you had some excuses. Better don’t participate here. I can also say this and this company wants me but never made the step. By the way, in Ireland you will need to work in an international environment with 30 nationalities or so. I think you would not have been able to work there if I read your stuff here”
Ah, that was my LATEST job offer abroad… If I had still been single at the time, I would have taken it.
Last time I put in some applications I had 4 companies who were interested. One of them actually called bit late. They were promising that they can make fast decisions if I came to interview. Well, my current job was result of less than 24 hour consideration so I declined. And then there was this another company who called in when I had already signed my contract…
-”Depends from where the foreigner comes from. There are also other countries with intelligent people
”
Of course. And those who are smart have no problems. People like Tony. Who understand that they have to adjust. They offend nobody, they cause no problems. They are the kind of immigrants Finland needs.
Not Ahmed or Jose or Bob who’s first reaction is “You know. This is not like at home. I want it to be like at home!”
-”As usual, Tiwaz, you are being too harsh with some of the bloggers. I you know what has happened in the Netherlands, you will understand that they have taken an about-turn on the immigration front. It is demographically a multicultural society where people from all backgrounds speak Dutch but where the ultra right-wing parties have capitalized on the immigrant question. I think in China it must be even worse.”
World is a harsh place. And people really have to get over misconception that if country A permits something, it must be accepted in country B.
Netherlands also suffers from it’s divided society.
Those multicultural societies have become secluded ghettoes, not as bad as Malmö perhaps, but it is bad situation overall. Crime and poverty are rampant in primarily uneducated Muslim community. Extremists are increasing in numbers.
Murder of Theo van Gogh showed the ugly face of multiculturalism where portions of society refused to accept same playing rules for everyone. Immigrants may speak dutch, but they refuse being dutch.
Solution of Netherlands is dead end, it cannot lead to anything but misery same way UK and Sweden are heading there.
Tiwaz
November 6, 2009
-”Was wondering who is able to live with you anyway”
Well, I am not surprised you found someone foolish enough to take you. Fools are all over.
-”If this is how they evaluate skills here then I think everything is clear for me.”
If group has reputation of being worthless troublemakers, why should we spend enormous amount of resources trying to dig that single one who is not?
It is cheaper and more effective to turn towards groups who do not have such reputation. We need to be far less lucky to score right one out of 10% than out of 1%.
-”Maybe they planned it but got fed up how some people evaluate skills here. One of my friend is studying in my home country and she doesn’t pay any tution fee for it either.”
Boo hoo. Guess who your buddies can blame for their problems? Their former compatriots. Do you know how much it costs to run interviews for 10 people? 100?
If you have interviewed 10 guys from hattivatti-land and they proved to be useless pieces of crap… Why you would pay for interviewing another 10 since you already know odds are low to find the pearl amongst them?
Or perhaps they even hired one of those guys. Who said they are “teh experts in all fields” to notice that in their culture, EVERYONE is expert in all fields. Except nobody knows what to do.
-”Yes but in case the recession will be over sometimes in the future I hope some people are going to read this stuff here ”
I hope so too. Because out of 10 immigrants, 9 are most likely going to be useless whiners like you. I really prefer those 9 not to come here. That single one is going to use his brain, figure out that he has a good chance to have nice, safe life in Finland if he adjusts. Moves in, prospers and brings benefit to Finland. If he does not. It is no loss for Finland in the end. We produce more highly educated people than we can hire.
-”If I go to the city at the weekend I see more drunken Finns creating problems than drunken Foreigners. BUT not EVERYBODY is behaving like them. You see it is about “individuals” not “groups”.”
Percentages. Apparently this is really difficult issue for you foreigners. I think it is because of your pathetic education. All about “individuals” so you do not learn basic statistics.
You see more Finns, because there are overwhelming amount of Finns in Finland.
-”Yes but not everybody who is a foreigner is an Ahmet. And not every Ahmet is a rapist.”
Just disproportionate amount of Ahmets. If 1 out of 100 Finns is rapist and 1 out of 10 Ahmets, it statistically proves that there is something really wrong with Ahmets.
And as you yourself admitted, their little groups tries to shelter criminals. Unacceptable.
-”Seems that it is easy to get a Degree in Finland if even a dog can get it. Or is studying just a method to keep the unemployment rate low?”
We call it good educational system. Free studies as far as your capabilities can carry you. And much attention to useful subjects instead of “Intercultural sensitivity”.
-”They have but they are not Finnish.”
Do they speak fluent Finnish? Are they able to act Finnish? If not, they do not have essential skills.
-”Quite hard to convince somebody who has a negative picture about foreigners. A foreigner would never get a job in your company just because of your attitude towards every foreigner.”
Where did this negative picture appear? Oh, could it be the foreigners themselves! When you have interviewed 100 foreigners who in their CV claim “fluent Finnish”, which to them means they can say “Huve paive” it really does not encourage you to interview another 100. When in Finnish CV fluent English means you can have quite decent discussion in mentioned language instead of pidgin.
Same if they are hired. Foreigner cultural tradition to seriously embellish their abilities is another source of dislike to interview them. Experts of information technology who stare at you blankly when you ask them to set up necessary programming environment to their PC.
Yay. Another wasted round of interviews you have to do again because foreigners take more artistic liberties with their CV than Finns. Finns do it too, but not to same extent.
-”Maybe because some foreigners are just used to work with other foreigners…”
So to appease little foreigners we have to force Finns to abandon their culture so foreigners do not have to learn Finnish culture? Boo fucking hoo for foreigners.
-”One of my friends I have studied with is actually working in Ireland. I suppose they he has similar skills as I do. Was just wondering if you would need to work with him…Most likely you would think that you are something better because you are from Finland even so you are in Ireland”
You mean I would act like you here! Oh my, what a coincidence it would be! After all, your attitude is that you and your fellow foreigners are so grand and great that we natives would have to kiss your arses 24/7 because you deigned to come to this country.
Kissing arses including that we must abandon our own cultural was and embrace yours, because it is SO better culture because it is yours.
Nevermind that we are in FINLAND not in Ireland.
-”Maybe there is a reason for this? I would try it but always when I start speaking some words in Finnish the conversation ends up in English. So whats the use? I see a language as a communication tool. If both speak English where is the problem?”
Maybe you should request that they speak Finnish to you?
And if both speak English, it does not mean they should. You should learn local language, because not all natives are willing to appease your foreign ass.
At work, they might not have time or resources to start teaching you Finnish. You should do it at your spare time.
-”For secondary education maybe. For Universities this is not the case. The best Universities are in other countries.”
Best? Few best yes. But Finnish Universities are extremely high quality as well. At least as long as we speak of things which matter, like hard sciences. Or why do you think that basically every time someone wants to send some really expensive piece of junk to space, you are likely to find measuring devices “Made in Finland” there?
Not bad for country of 5 million people.
-”One is working in Logistics for Sony Ericsson and the other one as a Receptionist in the Arab Emirates.”
Essentially, niche jobs. Arab Emirates again is NOT Finland. And being in logistics department of huge international company is niche job as well. Most logistics people are NOT employed by huge internationals.
-”But you didn’t take it so you don’t have any expertise in living in a foreign country.”
Except, what makes you think I have no expertise from my previous experiences?
Tsk tsk, you should not make assumptions.
-”Getting job offers and actually take them is something different. You didn’t go abroad so you don’t have experience.”
Again, aaasssumptions.
Furthermore, issue is moot regardless of my experience of working abroad. I have always said one thing…
When you go abroad, you adjust to local conditions. You do NOT expect local conditions to adjust to you. Like you want to happen.
-”Yes they open Pizza places and Coffee shops here because they are also in a relationship with a Finnish person and maybe a baby and have no choice to move somewhere else (similar like you when you got your 20 job offers from other countries).”
So? Is there something inherently wrong in running pizza place or coffee shop? As long as they accept that they have to adjust to Finland and contribute to society who cares?
And if they are miserable here, they are free to leave. Nobody is holding a gun to their head. If they have child they do not want to leave behind, it is again their own fault that they ended up like that.
Nobody else can, or should, take responsibility for YOUR decisions. And YOU decided to get married, YOU decided to have kids, YOU decided to move.
All blame is upon your own shoulders.
-”Thats why Finland is maybe behind the country where I grew up in the Quality of Life Index 2009: http://www.il-ireland.com/il/qofl2009/
”
Man, I moved from heaven to hel(sinki)…
Ireland, Ireland… Where have I heard that name. Oh yes! It’s that little island which would still be in crap condition if EU had not spent billions to prop it up.
Net RECEIVER of EU, essentially meaning it is so weak it has to be propped up by others. I wonder what Finland is… Oh yes, we have been net PAYERS for all of our EU history.
Sounds like you guys were unable to build nicely running system without Finns and other Europeans paying for it.
hannu
November 9, 2009
In few days ago i again witnessed cruel racism.
Pizzeria didnt want to sell withouth cash, how racists! Buyer was negro and seller hairyhand. Russki bystander told negro to stop yelling and so he also was racist. Few finns including me laughed for it and so we were also racists!
I also were racist again when i dared to say negro that theres bin in 50cm where he dropped his trash. Should i get some sensitivity training?
How we can stop racism like this…
Tiwaz
November 9, 2009
-”If you would have read my postings then you may have figured out that I am also from a NET contributor country in the EU. Here is the list by the way till 2008:
http://www.eu-oplysningen.dk/euo_en/spsv/all/79/”
You did not speak of any country but Ireland, based on that “Quality of life”-study. Ireland which, as presented by your own source, is HUGE drain in EU.
-”Finland among the smallest net contributors in EU:”
Irrelevant. Finland is still paying more than it is receiving. Unlike your wonderful Ireland.
-”I didn’t even read your answers this time. I suppose it is again that all foreigners are stupid and so on.
As I said, get some experience abroad with some foreigners and then we talk again. You have no experience so better don’t talk.”
Apparently you really are too stupid to understand what you read. I have experience abroad and with foreigners. Quite more than enough.
My LATEST job offer from abroad was one I turned down. Not ones before that.
And, indeed, foreigners who cannot accept that when they leave their homeland they have to leave their cultural baggage as well are indeed idiots.
Tiwaz
November 10, 2009
Project work in IT field. Software business in general.
As for foreigners… Varied.
Now, tell me, do you really see it as realistic that immigrants start making demands to nation they move into?
You attitude appears to be one that immigrants must be given jobs, and then immigrants “reward” Finland by lowering themselves to learning Finnish.
Do you see this as realistic? They are not getting jobs as it is because THEY CAN’T FUCKING DO THEIR DUTIES WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING FINNISH.
Thus, they are worthless for employer. So why of why you think that they should be hired to do a job they cannot do?
It is exact opposite. Immigrant who learns the local way is rewarded by GETTING a job because they can do it.
It is irrelevant if somewhere in Netherlands or whateverland they give jobs to no-speak immigrants. This is not Netherlands. Here speaking Finnish is prerogative to getting a job. That’s it. You do NOT get to say “I’ll learn Finnish if you give me job I can’t do”. You learn Finnish first, and then get job. Immigrants do not dictate terms.
Tiwaz
November 12, 2009
-”Doesn’t sound that you have lived for a longer period in another country…”
What? Because I acknowledged when I went abroad that I am going to be in foreign nation and have to adjust to their cultural tradition?
You mean, shock and horror, someone can actually ADJUST to conditions they live in instead of whining and demanding whole nations to change to fit their own whims?
I was out there, did my job, decided I liked it better in Finland and here I am. In my job I may have to go abroad again, which is not an issue for me. Because unlike you, I understand that abroad it is THEIR cultural tradition which matters, not mine.
-”I only say that it doesn’t make sense to be fluent in a language if you can do the job in English as well. I don’t even know if I want to stay in Finland for my whole life yet anyway and I don’t understand what the problem is in speaking English if both parties are able to speak English.”
Well, what is the problem of expecting you to be able to communicate with majority of your colleagues in their preferred language?
Minority has to adjust to likings of majority. If they prefer Finnish. You have no business telling them they have to use English.
In fact, your employer likely already knows this. And thus does not hire your useless ass but instead takes that Finn who speaks Finnish AND English. Thus being able to fluently communicating with their colleagues and customers in Finland and abroad. Quite possibly in more than two languages.
Your attitude is one of lazy immigrant. “I’m not feeling like learning Finnish. So why can’t you Finns kiss my shining, gilded ass and speak language you most likely are not comfortable with and instead speak my language in your country?”
Perhaps, if you are really hardcore professional of niche business or find one of those few and heavily competed jobs in huge internationals… You can pull it off.
But I would guesstimate that way over 90% of you foreigners in Finland are not in niche business, do not have insane work skills and cannot get one of those few limited international Nokia jobs.
So what is the fate for you over 90%?
LEARN FINNISH!
If you do not plan to stay for long and thus not learn Finnish. Don’t. But do NOT come whine that you can’t get a job.
No habla, no jobo.
Your call.
Tiwaz
November 12, 2009
-”And for how long and in which country? Well I also accept that it is not everybodys cup of tea to live abroad. ”
Project based work. 1-2 years, and in English speaking country.
-”But just because you don’t like it does not mean that others don’t like it as well.”
Well, if you do not like living in Finland as it is, how about you not whining how unfair and bad it is. Because _I_ for one like living here. I can handle abroad, I accept that over there it is their way above my way. But I also expect same courtesy from you foreigners coming here.
“Well I am not lazy. Problem is that my interests are in other fields than learning languages.”
So why you whine when your own decision not to learn languages bites you in the ass? Take it as a consequence of your own failure.
-”I have also learned English in school and have no problem communicating with other Finns here.”
Yes you do have problem communicating with Finns. If Finn decides that he does not want to speak English, you with your nonexistent language skills are fucked up.
That is also why few employers want to hire someone without niche knowledge and no language skills. You are, essentially, worthless to company since you require so much babysitting.
-”In 20 years you need a population of 8 Million skilled people to finance your wellfare state and YOUR pension. With your attitude it might be quite hard to get them coming here if you expect from all of them to speak fluent Finnish: http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2009/11/vanhanen_more_immigrant_workers_not_refugees_1153428.html?origin=rss”
SOME estimates say so. That is, the most unrealistic ones.
Vanhanen likes to talk total and utter bullshit. 20 years from now and pensioners of large age groups are calculated with one hand fingers. Death toll is already starting to mount up.
This is further made irrelevant by amount of unemployment in Finland. Unless jobs begin to materialize, having 5 or 50 million people is irrelevant if there are jobs only for 2 million.
Where is Vanhanen going to invent jobs for all 8 million? Hmm? And we mean PRODUCTIVE work. Not newspaper editors, philosophers or row upon row of hairdressers.
Finland needs work which produces something which can be sold abroad for money. Not just moving euros from left hand to right inside Finnish borders.
And because Finland is country of high education and high work cost, it effectively means we must specialize to high value, high competence industry. We just can’t compete in making Adidas shoes with cheap Asian child labor.
Let us pretend that this is actual situation though…
What is your suggestion? Hmm? That we Finns abandon our culture and language and start appeasing your foreign asses by learning your language so you do not have to learn ours, in OUR ancestral homeland. We must learn your cultural habits and you do not need to obey our cultural traditions in OUR ancestral homeland.
To that racist and supremacist attitude I have only one thing to say. FUCK YOU!
We are not going to meekly bend over and drop the pants because it would be convenient for you foreigners.
Indeed, if we keep firm principle of “Finnish mandatory” in employing people, we discourage people like you from moving to Finland. Thus reducing the damage which cultural conflict causes, as those who move to Finland are ones who are willing to adjust and integrate.
And that will be huge marketing tool when rest of Europe will struggle with internal conflicts, crime and instability due to their embracing of “multiculturalism”.
In 20 years, Finland can afford to skim the cream from top as highly skilled and motivated people look for land where they can live in peace and safety from crime and violence caused by cultural and ethnic tensions in their native countries.
Tiwaz
November 13, 2009
-”And you did’t like you little adventure aborad? You did’t make any friends there?”
I simply prefer it here. This is, after all, my home. As for friends. I have made friends when I have desired to. I simply do not count all acquaintances as friends.
-”I would not see it as a failure as I have my girlfriend here, 2 employers who hired me and made good friends.”
So why are you whining? Hmm?
-”Unrealistic just because you say it?”
Unrealistic because it is at the extreme end of estimates. Realistic estimates are way less interesting, thus they are not printed.
-”Why are you not inventing something which can be sold if you are so highly skilled instead of wasting your time in writing stupid comments about foreigners in blogs? Would be more productive.”
I am. This is simply how I spend my short breaks between doing stuff which produces money for company which pays my salary.
-”You don’t need to abandon anything. As I said, English is also not my mother tongue but do I make a big deal out of it? If both parties speak English where do you see the problem? Even with you I am communicating in English and you can understand what I am writing here.”
So do you want to work in your native country speaking only English because some asshat from abroad refuses to learn to speak local?
I have noticed you foreigners have great eagerness to expect things from Finns which you would not be willing to do in your native country if tables were turned.
-”Yes and highly skilled Immigrants will stand in queues to get into a Finnish course…”
If they want to get anywhere, they will. And they do it because they know that it is a price they have to pay for society which is functional and safe.
You would be surprised what motivated people are willing to do.
-”…where they will spend 60% of their income to finance your pension.”
As opposed to spending 60% of their income paying for insurances, guarded complexes and so forth. And being in fear every time they step outdoors.
If they do not want to pay, they are free not to come. I am certain that after having few Malmö experiences they start to consider price Finland expects to be cheap price to pay for peace of mind.
-”My girlfriend actually asked me to move to Finland. Is she also part of your “we”?”
No, but neither she represents any notable majority. Huge majority of Finns want to keep Finland Finnish. If your girlfriend wants to be comforted by your staff and rod, as certain person would say, it is her issue. Majority of us are in no way required to appease her ass either.
She decides to import foreigner, she has to accept what takes place. If foreigner decides to be imported, he has to take responsibility of his fate.
If foreigner fails to find employment because they are too lazy or stupid to learn Finnish language, it is THEIR problem. Perhaps in this case girlfriend should use more whip to get that lazy ass of her man to do something worthwhile.
If foreigner does find a job, foreigner has no business whining how racist Finns are. Unless foreigner thinks he is so fine and mighty that he should have been granted better job with more salary. In which case it is task of foreigner to…
A) Find such job opening
B) Convince employer that he indeed is qualified for such job.
So tell me again. Why are you here whining about how miserable your life is? If Finland is so bad, leave. Very few if any people here will be crying over it.
Tiwaz
November 16, 2009
-”So you think they are not able to calculate how many people they need in order to finance your pension? And you know much more than they do.”
Those are estimates. I guess you are some kind of humanist since you do not grasp that they cannot calculate hard figures about future. They always have half a dozen radically varied estimates. This 8 million one is from the extreme end.
Furthermore, you again fail to grasp the crux of the issue…
WE DO NOT NEED WORKERS, WE NEED JOBS!
8 million people but no jobs for them is disaster. Not only would we have existing retirees to cover but huge mass of useless foreigners who came here to cover “labor shortage” but there are no jobs for them.
Once Finland has the jobs, workers will come. Trying to stockpile workers just in case there is work someday is idiotic.
-”Why not establishing an own company, create some jobs and hire people? Should be not a problem for a skilled person like you?”
Maybe later. I like my job as it is. Besides, in case you have not figured out, someone has to do the actual work too. It is highly inefficient to have everyone as chief, you need more people who do things than people who manage things.
-”Why not? I like to speak English. My last boss in my home country was also not able to speak my language. You also spend your short breaks in writing in blogs in English. So most likely you also enjoy it?”
Me writing on my breaks does not mean I want to use it at work all the time. Just the opposite.
I also find it necessary to burst bubbles of foreigners who think they are entitled to things when the immigrate. This is for benefit of myself, my countrymen and immigrants. Because immigrant who waltzes in to Finland and expect things to work like they at home and that they receive jobs without need to integrate are in for very rough awakening.
Then they become bitter whining immigrants because they never bothered to think before they jumped.
-”Didn’t say that Finns are racist. Just said that some people require Finnish for jobs where Finnish is not needed.”
This is Finland. Way over 90% of people you are bound to meet in your job are going to be Finns unless you find some incredibly rare niche job.
So how about taking your elitist attitude that “Finnish is not needed in Finland” and sticking it up your rear?
Besides, in case you have not yet figured it out… EMPLOYER decides what skills are necessary, not you. You are trying to apply for a job, which means they call the shots.
-”Because I have been to a few interviews where they told me afterwards that I have to speak fluent Finnish even so I stated on my CV that I do not speak Finnish.”
So? Did you apply to jobs where they pointed out specifically that they do not need Finnish skills?
Guess which ones are the exception and thus specifically mention language requirement or lack of them…
Ones where Finnish is needed or ones where it is not needed?
By the way, you yourself said that immigrant would be motivated to integrate and learn language if they had a job. And here we have you. Guy who has job, but shows zero interest in integrating and learning the language.
Kind of shoots your own argument out of the air doesn’t it? In reality it does not matter a damn thing if we give “no speak”-immigrant a job or not. They are not going to integrate and learn the language. They are indeed even less likely to do that because there is no force to push them that way.
This is why I will vote for whatever party makes residence rights dependent on continuous progress in learning Finnish language.
Since carrot does not work, let’s try the stick. And in case anyone whines, you had your chance to do this the nice way. Immigrants themselves in large numbers decided to refuse to adjust.
Tiwaz
November 19, 2009
-”I would trust their estimation more than yours. You only talk but have no evidence either.”
As I stated, it is only ONE of the estimates. Of course the most dramatic example.
Have you seen THEIR evidence for this claim? Clearly you cannot even read the very article you referenced to. When speaking of 8 million workers, it says SOME estimates.
-”So who is going to work then if they have all retired? ”
Is there a job left when someone retires? Guess you have not grasped the current trend of simply not filling the job when someone retires, instead eliminating it. It is considered more tactful than firing people.
-”Sounds like an excuse. My cousin is also an entrepreneur and hired people.”
Is your cousin entrepreneur in Finland and does he function in business which requires contact with Finns and does he hire people who speak preferred language of clients or does he just tell Finnish customers to speak language of employee?
You have to be rather stupid to present case of cousin from hubbabubbaland as a proof on how things should work in Finland. Anyone with half a brain knows you cannot draw direct comparisons on employment in UK and Finland. Different country, different system.
-”I thought it is different here than in other countries
”
Clearly it is here different since idiots from abroad think that they make the rules in interview. Apparently where you come from, wannabe employee tells employer what skills employer needs.
-”The job ad was in English, my CV was in English and my application letter was in English. What else should I show that I don’t speak Finnish?”
Perhaps mention that you cannot speak Finnish at all?
Having job ad in English is not necessarily sign that job does not require Finnish. They just want to make certain their potential applicant can handle that language AS WELL.
Or do you think that someone who responded to that ad in pidgin would have had some sort of chance to be employed even if they did speak Finnish?
-”Most likely because almost everybody speaks English here, my jobs were only on a temporary basis and I have not decided where I want to live in the future.”
Very common attitude on foreigners. And very arrogant one. “Why should I learn to speak your language in your country?”
Prime reason not to hire foreigner if you are looking for long term employee. You just come and go and leave employer doing another expensive round of job interviews.
-”Most of the people I know and took an intensive Finnish course are still unemployed or started running an own business here in Finland. So what’s the use?”
They are still more likely to be employed than guy who speaks no Finnish at all. And fluency is not reached through sitting through one intensive course. Being able to say “Montako rahaa näkkileipä” roughly right is nowhere near fluent.
-”Better continue looking for niche jobs”
Those require niche skills. Or does your delusional mind thing that every immigrant is hotshot IT-guru?
-”or move to another country.”
You won’t see us shed tears. Bye bye, don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out.
-”I will never be a 100% Finn anyway…doesn’t matter how hard I try to integrate myself. I have so many Finnish friends and none of them has any problems with me just because I can’t speak Finnish.”
Who said you could ever be 100% Finn?
However, if you integrate to society, learn language and culture you are not in any worse position than 100% Finn in Finland.
That is equality.
When you have and use same skills which every Finn has, you are on equal starting position in competition for jobs etc. Very few people would hold your foreign origin against you, if you show you can work and live in Finland according to it’s cultural tradition and with Finnish language.
To reach that, it takes long time and lots of work. But it is sign of commitment which is appreciated.
Tiwaz
November 19, 2009
-”Should be no problem for skilled people to create some?”
If you are so damn skilled and superior to Finns in every way thanks to your foreignness, why are you not CEO of big company and hiring people?
Or maybe it is not that simple hmm?
-”More foreigners who can’t speak fluent Finnish (after 9 months intensive Finnish training):”
Yes. Another case of stupidity. Of course recruiters, as stated in article, think the skills are “adequate”. They make money by recruiting these people! Recruiters are not responsible for providing proper service to patients in hospitals for example.
Those foreign nurses are useless. Whole experiment is total failure. You cannot have anywhere near sufficient fluency to do any kind of care work. But recruiters want to recruit, because that is how they get money. And idiots in charge buy their bullshit because they only see that those Filipinos agree to work for less than properly trained Finns because they do not grasp that living expenses in Finland are completely different from ones in Philippines.
Tiwaz
November 24, 2009
-”
Somehow I have this feeling that the whole world is stupid except you
”
Well, whole lot of them indeed are. Blame is of course for great deal in system which makes them be that way.
Politicians have very short attention span, only up to next re-election at best. And getting elected is easy if you promise moon from the sky and cheaper taxes.
Of course, then you have to at least pretend to fulfill your promises. Which means that you have to cut expenses, which means that they put forth declaration that all services must be obtained at cheapest possible price.
At which point officials responsible for hiring nurses switch on their idiot-gear and buy crap from some hotshot salesman who tells them they can provide nice Filipino nurses who work for bag of peanuts and pat on the head.
Nobody looks beyond the price. Salesman knows he is selling shit, nurses do not know they are being handed shit deal and officials just rub their hands thinking how they managed to shave off few euros from budget expenses this quarter.
Now, tell me, why you are not hotshot CEO running successful big company since it is so trivial to run a business?
Tiwaz
November 25, 2009
-”Most likely because I don’t want to be a hotshot CEO of a big company and I suppose that those jobs here in Finland will be filled with a Finnish person anyway. You always tell me that you are so skilled because you are Finnish. You are in your “native” country so it should be quite easy for you to run a business as you can “communicate with your customers”. Most likely you don’t have a great product which you can sell or it is more easy to be employed by somebody else. After 7-8 hours you can go home and relax…”
As I have said, someone has to do the actual work as well. If everyone went to be CEO, who would do the actual work?
I have little interest to sit in meetings negotiating deals, I much prefer to do things.
And as noted, I have been wanted person abroad as well. Could this be because Finland actually has (at least had) very functional educational system? Hmm?
Tiwaz
November 26, 2009
-”But just doing things does not necessarily create jobs. If you complain that we need jobs in Finland why are you not just create some instead of wasting your time telling how stupid everybody is?”
I say people are stupid when they say we need workers. If there are no jobs for workers, then there is no need for workers. You and Vanhanen are trying to climb up the tree with your arse first.
I have no need to create jobs, I have a job I am satisfied with. I HAVE need to NOT have more immigrants to come leech our social security to prevent “worker shortage” which is not going to appear ever.
But immigrants do not disappear like that fantasy about worker shortage. They come, stay and become drain to our system.
-”And other countries do not have a functional educational system? Most likely you would have been the only foreigner and skilled person if you would have worked abroad”
Many of them are not functional in same sense Finnish one is. Americans often have very poor basic education. The very foundation of their education is shoddy in many cases.
They try to make it up with high quality Universities, but their system by and large is flawed. Similar issues can be found for example in Britain.
hannu
November 27, 2009
“(just wondering what you can really do with 400 EUR per month in Helsinki)”
You get house, electricity, water, medicines, medical treatment, schooling…. and you can keep that 400 and spend it how you like, you have to buy food and clothes with it tho.
http://www.finlex.fi/fi/oikeus/kho/vuosikirjat/2009/200902457
“because in finland living is free”…
Enrique
November 28, 2009
–“I HAVE need to NOT have more immigrants to come leech our social security to prevent “worker shortage” which is not going to appear ever.”
I think this sentence says it all. The big difference is how we perceive diversity and immigration. For some it may set of alarms while for others it is a positive matter. Since I have lived in culturally diverse society, I believe that the receptiveness of society towards immigrants is crucial. The jury is still out in Finland if the majority of the population thinks it is a good place to begin with. Even when Finland had a mere 12,000 immigrants in about 1980, there was a lively debate in this country equating immigrants with crime; thus people from different countries were discouraged because it would cause crime levels to rise. Who handled immigration affairs back then? The police.
hannu
November 28, 2009
“there was a lively debate in this country equating immigrants with crime”
They do equate with crime. To be exact they equate with serious crimes.
“thus people from different countries were discouraged because it would cause crime levels to rise. Who handled immigration affairs back then? The police.”
Good, should be like that now also.
Enrique
November 28, 2009
–“there was a lively debate in this country equating immigrants with crime”
Then, Finland should have kept its borders closed and appointed another Eila Kännö; Finland should have never joined the EU and it should have kept in force the Restricting Act of 1939 in this century.
hannu
November 28, 2009
Well i disagree with that but there should be more control and any foreign criminal should be kicked away so hard he couldnt even look in finland again. Including ones who dont know who they are.
Good immigrants are welcome, others can stay out. We have our own problems and we dont need to import more.
Enrique
November 28, 2009
I think there is no argument of this point: criminals should not be let in. However, if they come from failed states and countries with weak institutions and endemic corruption, is one “a criminal” if he adapts to such a notorious system? But yes, in Finland we have clear and just laws. There is no need to revert to a life of crime. What about if you are a person that lives off welfare and has to make ends meet? Is moonlighting justifiable?
hannu
November 29, 2009
“However, if they come from failed states and countries with weak institutions and endemic corruption, is one “a criminal” if he adapts to such a notorious system?”
In his country, i dont know or really care. In finland probably yes.
Tiwaz
November 30, 2009
-”Yes I agree that it makes no sense to have immigrants here who just want to benefit from Social Security (just wondering what you can really do with 400 EUR per month in Helsinki). Do you really think that ALL of them are here for these few euros?”
Does not matter what they are here for, that is what they are doing. They fail in understanding that their Wallaby-lullaby education from whateveritiscalled University of Idonotcarewhere is not valid in Finland. Thus they are uneducated.
They do not grasp that here things are done with Finnish and people expect Finnish behavior. Thus they are rude and unable to speak.
So they end up living with that 400 euros, leeching the system.
-”Many does not mean all.”
I am surprised you understood the difference. Do you now grasp that as we see with statistics, which are facts, for many groups many equals “nearly everyone”?
-”
Still wondering who is going to finance your pension in the future if these baby boomers are going to be retired and if there are no jobs here …”
That is my problem. But how about you telling me how having workers to do work which does not exist (we call that unemployment here) is going to benefit Finland?
Once we have jobs, we can import people to do it. But if we have no jobs, it is pointless to try to get people here to leech from welfare.
-”I think this sentence says it all. The big difference is how we perceive diversity and immigration. For some it may set of alarms while for others it is a positive matter. Since I have lived in culturally diverse society, I believe that the receptiveness of society towards immigrants is crucial.”
No it is not. Immigrant adjustment to existing society is crucial. It is idiotic to expect 5 million people to change their well established and FUNCTIONAL society to appease wants and whims of people from dozens of different nations. It is far more effective to have this fractional group adjust to ways and whims of huge MAJORITY.
You often fail to understand that immigrants are as different from one another as they are from Finns. Thus, it is idiotic to assume that Finns can somehow magically adjust to all these different groups. It is far more efficient and realistic for these groups to adjust to Finns, thus at the same time adjusting to one another.
There is no need to invent how Gambian interacts with someone from Bangladesh, all they have to do is to interact with one another as they would interact with Finn. Rendering their cultural difference irrelevant as they could interact through one common cultural interface. Finnish one.
-”The jury is still out in Finland if the majority of the population thinks it is a good place to begin with.”
Actually, since Finland does not have jury it is going to be out for infinite period.
Again this points out how foreigners have issues understanding that they are no longer at home!
I know this comes from English language and not your lack of understanding of Finnish legal system, but point stands. Finns do not have concept of jury, thus whole notion would be completely alien to us had we not seen American courtroom series.
This shows how immigrants are ones who must understand that they have moved to different culture where they have to adjust to existing realities instead of expecting them to fit their own culture.
Billy-Bob who ends up prosecuted will be laughed at if he starts asking “where’s mah jury of peers”.
-”Even when Finland had a mere 12,000 immigrants in about 1980, there was a lively debate in this country equating immigrants with crime; thus people from different countries were discouraged because it would cause crime levels to rise”
And fact is, immigrants are disproportionately represented in crime statistics. Specifically people of certain cultural and religious background stand up like sore thumb in rape statistics.
So clearly Finns were RIGHT to be concerned of crime aspect. Our failure is in not taking more proactive position and permitting flowerhatted ladies come and start this idiotic “we must understand the immigrants”-attitude when what we should have done is make it clear that Finland has zero tolerance for immigrants causing more trouble than they are statistically “permitted” to.
-”Who handled immigration affairs back then? The police.”
Strawman argument. You try to establish that police causes crime. Police never forced ANY of those immigrants to commit crime. Immigrants did it all by themselves, and THEY are ones who are 100% responsible.
Police simply investigates and reports things as they happen.
-”Is moonlighting justifiable?”
No.
a victim of rasist finland
December 21, 2009
enslaving foreigners is what finland is building her futur onno choice ..how many buss driver a foreign once has a phd on higher feilds and was not given any orientation to hoose his job and how many were forced to dirty jobs not of theire education level finland will pay the price some how some way one day second and third generation won t be easy on your rasist behavior .exploitation to boost your economy will be the reason finland open her doors to immigrants this population would nt last in a 160 years time no long no matter what you ll try god takes his revench slowly but surely .i know u all won t see it untill ur time is done than the word will spread how uneducated this nation in human relation and respect no matter how so funny rich finns controle every rasist idea to reject and put the foregneirs to a beggars basket .to let the world know most foregneirs in finland are homelesse divorced and joblesse thanx to the equal rights finns pretend to practice in a society where color of a skin and familly names can make ur life miserbal
a victim of rasist finland
December 21, 2009
1980 untill today we won tescape the dirty slogans on the street dirty looks and unpolitness rudness .u hate ur own peopel and kill ur own babys for god sake u don t even say morning nor talk to any one undless ur drunk most of the population is drug addict from judges lawyers police governement officials rapist and sex freaks .destination thailand and poor country to see pekka fucking a young boy or girl just cos he has money finns are the biggest organised gangs population why deny all the truth and talk non sense trying to compare ur self to bigger nation out of five million prisons are full of finnish sycopats even on the streets police are with gangs they help them to kill and chill.its a skin head nation and I CAN PROOVE 500 of every police or costumes or jail gards were skin heads and still hate every other human not justthere own peopel this country is for real a joke and u ll find plenty of europeans happy for this case cos they d love to moove to nazi finland to practice there hatery rituells .baby killers rapist and dumm ases mother fuckers
Jaakko
December 21, 2009
“how many buss driver a foreign once has a phd on higher feilds and was not given any orientation to hoose his job and how many were forced to dirty jobs not of theire education level”
This happens practically in every western nation and Finland isn’t an exception. There are also tens of busdrivers who have never graduated from any university or haven’t even been in a school building.
“finland will pay the price some how some way one day second and third generation won t be easy on your rasist behavior .exploitation to boost your economy will be the reason finland open her doors to immigrants this population would nt last in a 160 years time no long no matter what you ll try god takes his revench slowly but surely”
Of course the reason for opening borders to immigrants is to boost the economy. But is Finland really some apartheid or slave owner nation? Second and third generation immigrants will hopefully have integrated into the society. They will speak Finnish and will have studied in same schools Finns have and hopefully don’t have an attitude problem so they will do just fine.
“let the world know most foregneirs in finland are homelesse divorced and joblesse thanx to the equal rights finns pretend to practice in a society where color of a skin and familly names can make ur life miserbal”
So Finns made foreigners divorce? And are you sure most of foreigners are living under bridges?
What happened to you to make you such a hostile person?
Enrique
December 22, 2009
–What happened to you to make you such a hostile person?
I believe the feelings that “a victim of rasist Finland” is showing does not differ from some in this blog. Ever asked how we got in this situation? Why a society that is supposed to inspire with its knowledge ends up disappointing some?
Tiwaz
December 22, 2009
-”Why a society that is supposed to inspire with its knowledge ends up disappointing some?”
Because of unrealistic expectations of immigrants.
This is Finland. This is not like “at home”, because if it was, it would not be Finland.
To me, Finland, as it is, is “at home”.
When immigrants think that their school papers from Hicksville University for Social Sciences makes them able to land cushy job in Finnish university system they are setting themselves up for disappointment.
Foreign credentials are not accepted just like that ANYWHERE in advanced western world. You ALWAYS have to have them recognized for their local equivalents because different nations have different standards in schooling.
Same thing culturally. If immigrant is so stupid they do not figure out that in Finland invitation for coffee means invitation for coffee, instead of invitation for sex like in their native country, they are setting themselves up for disappoingment and rape charges.
IMMIGRANT, WHEN MOVING TO _ANY_ FOREIGN COUNTRY, DO NOT ASSUME THINGS WORK LIKE THEY DID BACK HOME.
NEVER ASSUME, ALWAYS CHECK AND CONFIRM.
If more people figured that simple thing out, there would be far less disappointments.
hannu
December 22, 2009
“a victim of rasist finland” you arent victim of racism but victim of your attitude and education, your writing style tells me you dont have education to succeed in finland. Good luck on your cleaner career if youre able to get it.
Educating you… well my friends kid know dot comes before space and hes 8 and he also knows you dont use “sms writing” when you talk to someone if its not fast pace communication.
gl hf and cy l8r
hannu
December 30, 2009
And reply for that by foreigner.
http://www.ovimagazine.com/art/703
hannu
December 30, 2009
There is great example about racism agains pirkkalaiset…
EvilFinn
December 30, 2009
“Ex-Foreigner who lived in Oulu:
http://www.65degreesnorth.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=169&Itemid=89 ”
“And reply for that by foreigner.
http://www.ovimagazine.com/art/703 ”
Both of those articles are worth reading! They made me really think. Thank you xyz and hannu!
I don’t think this whole issue (I mean everything: Finland, Finns, immigrants, racism, multiculturalism…) is as simple as some people here tries to make it. Every coin has two sides and in my opinion this coin has even more sides.
I really don’t know what to think. After all this reading and thinking I’m only more confused than before. I don’t have nasty racist thoughts and neither do my friends or my family (I have discussed this issue with them). Where does the racism, that foreigners talk about, come from then? I am amazed by the amount of hateful comments towards Finland and Finns in any forum, blog or article about Finland. Finland sucks? Really?
I know that you cannot get a decent job in Finland if you aren’t qualified enough and I understand why lack of Finnish language skills shouldn’t be an obstacle in getting a job. I also understand why we place such a high value on our language. It’s a treasure (at least for me it is)! Life without even a chance of getting a job seems very pointless and when you get no native friends, well… All that drains all positivity and energy out of you. Finland can be cold in many ways…
But I like the atmosphere of Finland. People minds their own business, are silent and also helpful when needed. Everything around me goes on like a cool engine and I’m just one part of it. My personal life is only for me, my family and my friends. All of them are there when I need them. Cold atmosphere is gone when I’m with them. I also like meeting new people (foreigners included) and that is no problem for me.
I think I understand why a change is needed and why people want to keep Finland as it is as long as possible. This is really, really complicated issue. I have no idea what the best solution for Finland would be. I hope it would benefit us all.
OK. This comment of mine is kind of pointless/unclear… Just a collection of thoughts…
Happy New Year!
Enrique
December 31, 2009
Hi Evil Finn and welcome to Migrant Tales. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. You make an interesting point. Even though we belive we can change things, many times change does what it wants and imposes its reality upon us. So the “change” we seek happens on the basis of our adaption and how we can find synergies with it. Happy New Year to you as well!
Ben
January 5, 2010
Greetings and Happy New Year from the States!
I had just began reading the blog a few days ago and I have to tell you Enrique, it is quite fascinating.
My family and I moved to a small town in Finland around the early-mid 90′s looking for a better future. Since i was only a young boy, it only took me about a year to be on a par with my age-mates, concerning the language, and a few years later I had a larger vocabulary than many of them (My parents always pushed me to outperform). This did not dismiss me from racism. I was often teased and called “neekeri” so that, as a child, I began feeling as if I truly was inferior. In one of the worst occasions ( and there are many), I remember my 3rd grade teacher pulling me outside of class with rage and choking me and calling me a neekeri, just because I was talking and joking around.
In contrary, I managed to find friends who were among of the nicest people I have ever met that saw more into me than just my skin color.
I just hope Finland has changed for the better since the 90′s I remember it by.
Ben
Enrique
January 6, 2010
Hi Ben, and welcome to Migrant Tales and thank you for sharing your views with us. I also wish to you and yours much success in 2010. Things have improved from the 1990s but there is always a lot of work to be done. One of the most important matters that has changed is that Finland is starting to understand that it is becoming a more culturally and ethnically diverse society. Who is a target of racism and discrimination in Finland these days? I believe it has a lot to do with your skin color and language, which is very important to Finns. I have some friends where one of their parents is black. They reveal the same painful experiences and incomprehension as you do. But as you pointed out, there are also Finns who have a different take on such matters.
I think it is important for Finland and for you to tell your story so that your children and future generations will never have to suffer what you did at school. We are the future of this country and the only way others will realize that is by speaking openly about it. It can be painful but it is vital.
dani
January 7, 2010
Hey guys,
I have been reading the comments here and frankly im quite dumbfolded at what i’ve read. Are you people MAD?! I have lived in finland for 3 years now, and yes i have experienced some of the things that you guys have talked about, some not as severly though.
But all i have to say is be persistant in finland. i have faced racists before, people yelling and saying fucking foreigner, and i respond, yeah, those fucking foreigners and leave the dumbass racist thinking what the hell. In my opinion, racists are the foreigners.
Naturally, i am very strong headed, very opinionated, so for someone to step up against me is either a death wish or asking for a fight. Persistance is key in finland, if they say no, you say yes and do it your way. I might also sound arrogant by saying this, but i don’t give a fuck about other people’s opinions. If you donät like me, too bad, iäm here to stay and there is nothing you can do or say to change that. People have left finland because of racism, i say they are the loosers. if you surrender to a racist, you deserve what you get. i frankly don’t tollerate it, and my colleagues know it and don’t bother me anymore.
its all in how you put up with it. they way people act towards foreigners here is a way of life. fear. use it people. some woman asked me once in a supermarkert, ‘are you a foreigner?’ with this really bitchy attitude, and i responded ‘yes. i eat children too so be aware.’ she was very nice to me after that. I donno, maybe she was a cannibal, but the point is, what doesn’t kill you, only makes you stronger.
some guys tried to pick a fight with me at tikkurila railways station 3 months ago, like you foreign scum bla bla, and i just said bring it. 3 of you and one of me. i started to take off my jacket to prepare for a fight and they chickened out. racists? big school yard bullies that cry like babies to their mothers.
racism inspires me to be even better, to go against everything that is right. i simply donät tolerate it. My finnish girlfriend’s friend was like how can you date a foreigner, why not a finn, and i heard her say that and i simply told her, baby a foreigner has what no finn can offer you; a dick. she never said anything after that, and now we’re totally frinds.
i mean guys, use their racism to your benefit. If they won’t go into the elevator with you, so what, enjoy the peace and tranquility! no need for awkward silence people. if they give you the dirty look, give it back to them even worse.
i love to be provoked my racists, because i get creative, and at the end of it it makes funny stories to tell around the fire. im not talking about just finns here, but in general people – stand up for yourself and stop whining about it cause frankly people don’t care and no one will help you.
someone will say yeah, what about when your in a bar and they gang up against you, well you’re in for a world of pain, but when its over, offer to buy them a drink if you’re still concious… that will surely piss them off, but what else are they really gonna do, hit you some more?
you may not hurt a racist physically, but if you go agaist them mentally, you will kill them. and thats what i do. People, stand up to your bullies. you have no need to get pysical with them, just speak your mind or hold your head high and don’t drop to their level like i do. at the end of the day, its what some dumbass, inbread motherfucking child abuser thinks about you, and you know yourself better than anyone, and ou know its not true.
Peace out.
Enrique
January 7, 2010
Hi dani and thank you for sharing your views on how to confront racism. You must be one hell of a dude! My compliments that you have found a way to grab the issue from the horns. I especially liked one sentence in particular: “You may not hurt a racist physically, but if you go against them mentally, you will kill them. ” This is one of the best quotes I have ever heard on the subject. We hope to hear more of you. Thank you!
hannu
January 8, 2010
So Ben if i red your rant right you came here by using pigholes on our refugee policy and you were troublemaker in classes.
Enrique
January 8, 2010
–So Ben if i red your rant right you came here by using pigholes on our refugee policy and you were troublemaker in classes.
It was in no way a “rant” but a sincere account of how he felt as a child in Finland. Why do you jump to the conclusion that he used loopholes to get to Finland. We have no idea — and is it important – how he got to Finland. The most important matter is his story. And was he a troublemaker? The teacher should have been suspended for treating him in such a manner. Totally incomprehensible and unbecoming of a teacher.
Drago
January 8, 2010
I am a victim of institutonial racism in Finland.
The perpetrators being the Finnish police, prosecotors and judges. I was in jail when the racist troll da-hui@telex.co.uk posted on Usenet on March 25,26 2007 and yet I was found guilty of the posts of da-hui@telex.co.uk who was known to be the racist stalker Sean Ruttledge from London. Search google with “grik Nazi” or google videos or google groups you will see that I am a victim of Sean Ruttledge but because the troll is insulting besite me one other person from Turku Finland I was found guilty of the posts of Sean Ruttledge posting under da-hui@telex.co.uk on google groups but he using some other 5-6 google group accounts too like:
Kilfoyle@seanie.eu & gogu@nazis.co.uk & gogu@papafloratos.com
In order to register your google groups account you need a valid email address. @seanie.eu and @telex.co.uk and @nazis.co.uk and @papafloratos.com are all private email accounts belonging to the following domains: wwww.telex.co.uk and http://www.nazis.co.uk and http://www.seanie.eu and http://www.papafloratos.com All of them domains registered under Sean Ruttledge and only he had access to the email accounts of his domains and yet I was found falsely guilty by a racist judge and racist Finnish police. I have send the case to the ECHR and planing to go public with it. If the Finnish press will not report it, I am willing to contact the foreign press.
Among other crimes the Turku police committed were: lying under oath and even forgery. The Vanta recognition experts did similar. I was found “guilty” on the videos made by the same troll that were insulting me to 90% and to 10% a black man. Those videos can be found on google videos if you do a search with: Seanie Kilfoyle
This is not all. More crimes were comitted by the Turku police but it’s enough for the moment.
You might read the full story in some news paper in 2010
hannu
January 8, 2010
Drago take picture of käräjäoikeuden tuomio and upload those.
hannu
January 8, 2010
Enrigue. According to his story they came to look for “better life”, not escape (unchr definition) or to work so i assume he is one of social shoppers.
And should i tell how i was bullied about my surname and my “bend teeth” etc? Or how my friend was bullied because he is small? Like one foreigner said “i am lilliput in land of giants”.
My friend was target of terrible racism when he travelled around asia, people from next towns came to see 190cm/120kg of muscle white giant…
And that choking and naming part, i understand teacher since i have seen some “just because I was talking and joking around” who really stop anything productive going on but still teacher should have done that more professionally.
Enrique
January 8, 2010
–Enrigue. According to his story they came to look for “better life”, not escape (unchr definition) or to work so i assume he is one of social shoppers.
So since a refugee looks for a better life he is automatically a so-called “social shopper.” Anyone who leaves a country for another one may sometimes do so in search for a better life. If you are a refugee, you want to live a country where you are not suffering from violence and intimidation.
Enrique
January 8, 2010
–And should i tell how i was bullied about my surname and my “bend teeth” etc? Or how my friend was bullied because he is small?
I am sorry that you had to suffer in school. I am certain that many of us, me included, have a lot of horror stories to tell about our school days. That is what one feels when he is excluded. It is a pain that some of us carry around throughout our lives.
hannu
January 9, 2010
“So since a refugee looks for a better life he is automatically a so-called “social shopper.””
Dont use word refugee from social shoppers, thats insult against real refugees.
Enrique
January 9, 2010
–Dont use word refugee from social shoppers, thats insult against real refugees.
How does it insult anyone? It is only natural that refugees look for a better life somewhere else without the hostility, censorship and death that forms part of the scene.
hannu
January 9, 2010
Do you compare also someone who knows that electricity is blue and hurts to engineer?
Social shoppers sure had things worst than in finland in their home but so does approx 2 000 000 000 others.
Enrique
January 9, 2010
–Social shoppers sure had things worst than in finland in their home but so does approx 2 000 000 000 others.
The term you use to describe refugees is insulting. What gives you the right to treat other people like dirt? Things must be pretty bad in your life for you to insult others in such a manner.
hannu
January 10, 2010
…B on ilmoittanut, että he eivät voi viettää perhe-elämää Etiopiassa, koska hänellä ei ole työtä siellä. Suomessa se B:n mukaan on mahdollista, koska elämä siellä on ilmaista….
Ben
January 15, 2010
Hannu,
It is apparent that you show no sympathy and your head is harder than a bag of rocks. I am not going to generalize that all or even most immigrants have racially subjugated but i surely felt inferior in the country. I still think the most beautiful country I have ever been but if i account the experiences that i went through, it chaanges the beauty.
I am just appalled by your comments. I hate assumptions.
1.
My mother refused to receive social welfare, even being a single parent, and was one of the lucky few minorities who had a job. But what does that have to do with anything?
2.
I could only imagine how it would be if i was a “troublemaker”. I happened to be talking while the whole class was talking and I am guessing I was the easiest target to take out his frustration.
3.
Like i said, that was only one of the racial incidents. one other incident was when i was attacked by skinheads because they thought i was dating my best friend who was white. They had the “suomalaiset suomalaisille” mentality, and I am guessing they hated seeing Finnish girls around brown-skinned guys.
I dont believe you have ever walked in my shoes and I hope you would never have to. I am happy to hear that Finland has progressed and hope Hannu you are only a minority in that country; your comments are just distasteful.
hannu, älä ole niin jääräpäinen!
Ben
Enrique
January 15, 2010
Hi Ben and welcome back. There is no reason to justify anything to Hannu or to anyone because all those things you mention are your RIGHT. Some people who speak critically and insult other groups talk as if they know what it is like being black, brown or different in this society. I am certain many people who visit this column enjoyed reading your post. To revisit the past and write about it takes a lot of guts. It is a sort of emancipation and facing those things that attempted to make your life miserable. If we hide the past we are in danger of committing the same mistakes. Thank you, Ben.
hannu
January 15, 2010
1. blatant lie and practically impossible. And what happened your father were around in your last message?
And you did live with savings while your mom was unemployed? And didnt need doctor? You were in privately funded school? You had free market house instead of community house?
2. Hard to say but i can tell there is difference in talking and “talking” (read yelling) what certain minorities do in atleast public.
3. Atleast that girl didnt dissappear to re-education in that terrible country where they had to flee what happens if finn tries to date certain minorities.
Skinheads are stupid fucks but atleast they dont have acceptance of “community” like bullies in other minorities have.
And i understand where skinheads come after i have witnessed how certain minorities treat people and police is teethless.
And im not minority according to polls, you are free to prove that i am.
Ps. Finland is for finnish people like your house is for you and not some random who wants to come live with you.
hannu
January 15, 2010
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/4274
“The police in the Norwegian capital Oslo revealed that 2009 set yet another record: compared to 2008, there were twice as many cases of assault rapes. In each and every case, not only in 2008 and 2009 but also in 2007, the offender was a non-Western immigrant. At the same time, in 9 out of 10 cases, the victim was Norwegian, not just by nationality, but also by ethnicity.”
And you wonder where skinheads come and why people are suspicious…
Enrique
January 15, 2010
–Ps. Finland is for finnish people like your house is for you and not some random who wants to come live with you.
Wrong, Hannu, Finland is an open society for anyone who may want to live and contribute.
hannu
January 15, 2010
emphasis in contribute and if finland accepts you.
Enrique
January 15, 2010
Hannu, the Brussels Journal is not good for your head.
People are suspicious because there are papers as these putting out their swing of the story. Many, unfortunately, show how people would want to see immigrants.
And then on top of that you approve how skinheads behave? Give me a break! They are, together with this problem of relating to others, a big threat to Finland. Finland is studying to raise the retirement age because there aren’t enough people coming to this country.
hannu
January 15, 2010
I dont approve skinheads, i understand where they come.
If i threat, rape, beat, mug and insult your family and police says youre racist what you would do?
Enrique
January 15, 2010
Hannu, I am happy that you do not approve of the skinheads. It is also difficult to understand why they act in such a way.
If you look at your next sentence, how can we build any trust if we are always criticizing others? I could take terrible things about any society and inflate them to such an extent that it would be impossible to see the more pleasant parts of their culture.
Ben
January 16, 2010
Sorry I meant welfare checks.
Again I hate assumptions. PLEASE don’t make them!
You are just stubborn and unwilling to empathize or come to an agreement with anything. You don’t add anything constructive nor do you have any insights that most would value. If you are always on the defense there is no way we could agree upon anything.
Shows your true character when you would rather sympathize with people even an average man with only decent morals would condemn. I understand it is important to see things from both sides but it kinda gets annoying only hearing from someone who plays the devils advocate.
I apologize if I came a bit offensive but you do a decent job frustrating me.
Ben
Ben
January 16, 2010
We lived with family friends before we could settle down. My father was a professor in UK at the time. Again once you show the clear purpose of asking ridiculous questions, I am not going to answer anymore unless you show the purpose.
Ben
January 16, 2010
Thank you Enrique. I have lately been comfortable talking about my experiences. I always mostly praise Finland though because it is truly a beautiful country, well run education system and government (unlike the US) in my opinion of course, and it has truly changed my life for the better I believe. I am a stronger person.
hannu
January 19, 2010
Ben.
You havent had any good reason but you used our lenient law so you are social shopper.
Lorenzo
January 24, 2010
Unfortunately foreigners are often very much afraid of Finns. The truth is that Finns are afraid of… everyone. When they used to see in the history someone who’s NOT from their own familiar village, they had to pose the question: is this a person I can trust or a person who tries to harm us? No matter of the the time, these largely peasant Finns had to be afraid of the kings loyal advisers and tax collectors, who sometimes were not thinking about the well-being of normal Finns, but only their own assets. It’s a long historical pattern and it explains very much of Finnish behaviour even today. Obviously things and attitudes change, but this is printed so deep into Finns’ DNA that you cannot change it just by appealing of and blaming them racistic. Once they realize you are not the king’s henchman or bailiff you’re definitely on. But this takes for a Finn much more time than i.e. for an average Mediterranean man, who’s used to the social habits in the evening as the sun still shines. As the centuries passed on, a Finn couldn’t learn to get socialized on a same way due to the lack of sun and light and the dangers it imposed. So please don’t blame the Finns because of their history. They are good people and their suspicion have strong historical roots. By the way, as you are on you’ll realize how lucky you are as you can trust these people on so different a way than a foreigner generally in, let’s say, Latin America, where you’ll have dozens of hang-around buddies to talk with, but very few real friends who’ll help you, even risk their lives for you, if the shit indeed hits the fan.
Enrique
January 24, 2010
Hi Lorenzo and welcome to Migrant Tales. Thank you for sharing your opinions with us. Contrary to popular belief of some of the more anti-immigrant readers, I believe that most of us enjoy living in Finland, respect many things of it and have ambitions to make something out of ourselves here. However, the issue, I believe, is that we have to do a lot more work to get our voices heard. Unemployment figures speak for themselves as well as the opinions of the so-called far-right, or ultra-nationalist groups.
The real issue, I believe, is that immigrants and people of immigrant backgrounds (including children who have a Finnish parent) must fight for a place in this society. If we do nothing and hope… well, then, we can hope forever.
Lorenzo
January 24, 2010
Why don’t you or someone then quote phrases from Alberdi or others or translate “Bases” and other classics into Finnish to make people understand? By the way there is a big difference between an African or Asian living in Finland compared to a Latino living here. And unfortunately yes, the right-wing movements are raising their heads, but that’s because they feel left out. In France, Italy, Britain, elsewhere the clashes have already started. Let’s hope it won’t stupidly and unnecessarily occur here also. So what should be done? At least trying to make people to understand our different backgrounds and histories to help to explain some of our, Finns and foreigners, “strange” behaviour. But how? And would that be enough? Probably not. But it’d be better than nothing. (Another example might be opening a blog/conversation forum in the internet and name it i.e. Migrant Tales.). P.S. That’s partly true that a foreigner needs to work harder, but a foreigner – outside of the norms and Finnish present ‘société du spectacle’ – is allowed to do things a Finn generally cannot. As being a foreigner you need to find your place in the society on your own way. Finland is not – yet, at least – the United States or South America in the 19th century.
Enrique
January 24, 2010
Lorenzo, you mentioned one of Latin America’s greatest thinkers of the 19th century. If Alberdi had to comment on the Finnish constitution prior to 1999, he would have criticised it quite a lot. Remember how Alberdi states in “Bases” the importance of Latin American governments to promote liberal immigration policies? His criticism of a number of constitutions like the Uruguayan of 1830 never mind the Paraguayan of the 1840s show a clear trend in his thinking: immigration is good and anything that limits it is bad. So I agree 100% with you: Alberdi’s thinking still applies even though it was a bit romantic on matters about the positive affects of immigration (I believe that immigration is always a positive matter). I agree with you 100% – we need new thinking and thinkers to highlight Finland’s challenges in the new century. The old ones left from the previous century will end up killing us because they hinge on a closed-minded policy that sees outsiders as a threat.
Sos argentino?
Lorenzo
January 24, 2010
Something should really be done. I agree mainly with your thoughts, the general line yes, but not every nuanced detail. P.S. An artistic Alberdi hint: scroll very close into the famous sepia photo of the middle-aged Alberdi (not the oldest fart) and put a 5-minute Philip Glass song “Metamorphosis One – Instrumental” from his “Solo Piano” album and look close into Alberdi’s eyes. What appears could be a part of your next controversial “metsätalous” or whatsoever documentary. After Finland turning into Argentina (or Latin America in general). At this part the reader would ask: has Alberdi been a threat, and too dangerous to be translated into English? (First for the British and then especially to the US and US-led world order, which is afraid of letting Latin America become what it is capable, possibly even independently, reaching.)
- Gracias por los comentarios.
Hasta la victoria siempre,
Lorenzo
Enrique
January 24, 2010
Lorenzo, do you know of any prominent social thinker such as Alberdi who has spoken out so much in favor of immigration? The piece by Philip Glass that you mentioned is really cool.
hannu
January 25, 2010
“(I believe that immigration is always a positive matter)”
Tell that to indians and aboriginals etc.
Enrique
January 25, 2010
–Tell that to indians and aboriginals etc.
Good point, Hannu. However, it wasn’t the immigrants but their education, racism, prejudice, stereotypes that killed other people or forced them to war. I am certain that there were groups such as the Aztecs that may have had similar views of “otherness.” See how important it is to learn how to live and respect others. By discrimination all one does is try to rule in a hostile manner another person and groups.
hannu
January 25, 2010
“it wasn’t the immigrants but their education, racism, prejudice, stereotypes that killed other people or forced them to war.”
And thats happening today and you blame locals.
hannu
January 28, 2010
Enrique you may be interested on this case http://www.dolanmedia.com/view.cfm?recID=552049
Enrique
January 28, 2010
–Enrique you may be interested on this case http://www.dolanmedia.com/view.cfm?recID=552049
I am amazed, Hannu, where you get all this information. I must admit that I had a hard time following the story and its punch line.
hannu
January 29, 2010
I dig information and im well informed about situation.
There you see what real racism in finland is, if you act like finn your own attack you and put your down.
There is atleast two cases where roma told their own to start behave and it didnt go well…
I know one roma who started to be like white and his own kind spit on him, “like white” was working and dressing in work dress.
And then you come here and tell how racists we are!
Tuomas
January 29, 2010
Few nights back I stumbled into http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88bTtH4k3y4 (might actually be the same shopnil that left few comments in this discussion!) The video really made me think and inspired me to look more into the subject.
I found this blog and spent the last few evenings reading through all the replies to the original post. I have to say I feel quite brokenhearted at the moment after seeing all that has been said here. All the ways that people have been treated wrongly and how they feel/felt that they had no option but to leave the country.
Especially alien’s and Observer’s words have hit me hard, saying that Finnish people suck and overall calling us “lesser people” in so many words. It does not make me feel bad because they make fun of the country I live on or the people I feel affiliated. It’s the fact, that Finland and Finnish people have treated these people so bad that they now feel this way of all people who live here, just hit me really hard. I feel quite sickened and angry because that certainly is against all that I was raised to believe.
All in all, reading your posts has really opened my eyes since I honestly had no idea the situation was this bad for so many foreigners, or that people look down on us because of it. This really is a subject that has not been covered thoroughly in media and will hurt this country in the long run.
Enrique
January 29, 2010
Hi Tuomas and welcome to our blog, Migrant Tales. There are still a lot of things to be done but by bringing the issues into the public light we can all start to resolve them. Finland can only end up becoming a stronger nation when it gets rid of issues like discrimination and aims to really make this society for all those who may want to be a part of it.
hannu
January 31, 2010
I watched that video and there is answers.
stare, finns stare and even non visible foreigners notice that, thats our culture.
sitting next to you in bus, finns avoid sitting next to anyone and when they have to they choose safest one, thats our culture.
speak finnish, thats old topic and explained many times.
respect, respect is earned.
right to move, bullshit.
Also did you red his comments?
—-
with using my brain i already make a property in India! if i need to go back now i can live in India like a king!
if a foreigner use their brain they can be rich! do black jobs and get social! and offcourse use finnish girls as much as u can! hahahaha!
i am not a cleaner! sorry man! i use my brain! i have my own restaurent and same time i get ur social money! i just use my brain!
if we black foreigners go away from ur country then how ur bitches gonna fuck??cause u white guys can only drink nothing u can do!hahahaha- black is the power!support black panther party! and use white people as much as u can!!
—
And he wants respect?
alien
February 1, 2010
Hi Again:
Tuomas said:
”
Especially alien’s and Observer’s words have hit me hard, saying that Finnish people suck and overall calling us “lesser people” in so many words. It does not make me feel bad because they make fun of the country I live on or the people I feel affiliated. It’s the fact, that Finland and Finnish people have treated these people so bad that they now feel this way of all people who live here, just hit me really hard. I feel quite sickened and angry because that certainly is against all that I was raised to believe.
”
I speak for myself and I do not think that Finnish people suck. Off course if a racist Fin attack my nationality, I attack him back to make him to see that I can hurt him harder but I wont, so STOP IT!
But yes Tuomas, certain authorities in your system are sick people and I mean literally sick. Specially sick and complexed people are gathered in immigration office, in Supo, in Police. I am now living in Sweden and I can see great differences between the Swedish police and the Finnish one. The bad thing Tuomas is that you as Finns would not do any thing to change the situation. You are too subjective and most of you do not want to see more than the tip of your noise and at least you are guilty that much. If I give you only one advice that would be the following:
I am coming from a brave, liberal culture. Perhaps the world can now see a bit more clear what I am saying. By saying that I meant that this heritage make me not to beg any one as long as I am doing the right thing. Your country did the worst against me, and tried to make the life real hard for me. I am a capable man. I have a B.Sc, an M.Sc. and a MBA. I took my knowledge, toughness and family with me an moved to Sweden. Your country do not deserve me and my children. Your whole country, police, Supo, judiciary system put me under pressure that I make mistakes. I am smarter than they are. Instead I showed my finger to them and the rest of the Finnish bustards. I am having a life with honor here in Sweden and I say Fuck your social security system. That was all, Finland is done for me. This could be good news or no news for you, but the bad news is that not every immigrant has my abilities. This pressure that you exert to let saying “Somalian”, will hit you back hard some time. The Somali boy may not go the same path that I did. Instead they might take a path of violence and hitting back in their own ways. That blow might be very painful and costly! The price might be paid by some innocent people, but in my opinion your system is the responsible one. A person who has nothing to loose is too dangerous. Take my advice and even avoid to deal with them in your dream! So watch for what you plant today. You may not want to harvest it’s fruit!!
Regards
Enrique
February 2, 2010
Hi Alien, nice to hear from you. When I moved to Finland permanently in the end of the 1970s they did not know what a refugee was because such things did not exist officially because of the former Soviet Union. There was a small group of Chilean refugees, however, that lived in Finland after Salvador Allende was overthrown in a bloody coup in 1973. Immigrants were called in this country officially “aliens” (Muukalaistoimisto/muukalainen) and Soviet refugees were called “loikkari,” or a person who “skips” a country. This was Finlandization which the authorities also disagreed existed and was only a nasty German name invented to describe Finland´s special relationship with the former Soviet Union. These police and Supo officials you speak of who were back then young officers and are today leading these institutions. The same goes with the politicians and policy makers. So, in many respects, Finland needs a change — a new generation of politicians and policy makers who can handle the challenges posed by the ageing population and globalization.
You speak about future problems in our society. We have already sowed such seeds a long time ago.
hannu
February 3, 2010
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=35380
There is blatant racism and apartheid from america again.
Stadilainen
February 10, 2010
Hi, I’ve been reading these comments with interest, and there’s a lot I both agree and disagree with.
I’m of Arabian origins but I have the Finnish nationality. I came here when I was a kid and I have spent about 18 years in Finland, most of which in Helsinki. I wear a veil, my mother wears a veil and my sisters wears a veil as well. My both parents work as doctors in Finland, my sister and I study in the univeristy of Helsinki, and we have both found part time jobs here.
I cannot deny that there is racism in Finland, but I believe that racism is something that needs to be worked on by both sides, not just one. Just like the Finns need to give a chance to foreigners, the foreigners can use the chance well and prove their worth, instead of taking advantage of the social support system.
Sure, there are people who’ll always judge me for being an Arab and for my colourful veil, but hey, there are also people here who’re really kind and helpful, and who seriously just don’t give a damn about my religion or origins. Kudos to those.
I have been mocked for keeping a “rag” on my head, but a few days ago a Finnish clerk in a local S-market said that I look pretty with it.
I was once in the subway on my way to home from Kamppi, and an old woman said “you mud-face (mutakuono) should just go back to where you came from”, but on that same trip later on I met another old woman who was very nice and told me about her grandchildren and even gave me a recipe to make the best porridge at home.
My best friend was asked why she hangs out with someone of “wrong colour” and seriously, what else can I do but laugh at such stupidity?? Discrimination happens always. My mother does get shunned at work by majority, but the few who have gotten to know her have become really good friends.
My point is, racism is sort of a circle. Racism causes resentment in foreigners who act out, which causes more racism which causes MORE resentment etc. Giving people a chance might make them give you a chance as well. This goes both ways. We’re all equal.
Enrique
February 10, 2010
Hi Stadilainen, and welcome to Migrant Tales. Thank you for your insightful ideas. The ones that stood out were your comment on racism on both sides and giving people a chance. Very, very wise observation. If we learn to recognize and contain our prejudice and give others a real opportunity, I believe we are then on the right track. There are many good people in Finland as their are very narrow-minded ones. I believe that the former group will stand out at the end of the day because that type of relationship between people works. Immigrants and people as yourself/myself are here to stay. We consider Finland our home and want to make it a better place to live. Prejudice and exclusion will make it a worse place and the biggest loser will be Finland.
Thank you again and I hope to hear a lot more from you.
THC
February 21, 2010
Unfortunately I didn’t have time to read all of the comments in here (some of them were really good), but would like to really point out that the list that was provided at the beginning must be a joke? The reason for me saying like this, is that almost all of these things (if not all), are very much influenced by your OWN thoughts. Now, if you are already prejudiced to think one way, you will definately find racism everywhere. Sad, but true.
hietane
February 21, 2010
http://wsoy.fi/yk/products/show/8664
Read it.
Juha
February 21, 2010
I think you have spotted out the essential symptom:
“3) Finns often give me strange looks
4) Public officials, like the police, drag their heels with me
5) The police consider me guilty before proving my innocence
6) A Finn treats me too nicely
7) Finns are distrustful of me”
But not the actual problem. Since only two extremes do speak, the true racists and the naive idiots, a biggest part of the people are between. The problem is that regardless on what any one is saying, (s)he is labelled to either of the extremes, some times to both. There’s no free speech of the immigration policy in Finland currently.
According to the statistics, certain nationalities do make more crimes than others, and with out free speech on that, all the people who (in the eyes of Finns) have the characteristics of those nationalities get treated suspiciously. There should be an open debate about the matter.
But before you make too strong statements about the unemployment, take a closer look on the immigrants who are unemployed, and why.
If one looks at international companies, it is sufficient is one can speak English, but in the national companies, Finnish language is preferred. As long as there are Finnish speaking candidates, why would some one hire a non-Finnish speaker? And the biggest part of the unemployed immigrants are uneducated and have problems with Finnish language. Hiring them would be an act of charity, which might be expected from governmental instances, but not from a private business.
As a conclusion, you use the word racism too loosely. I’m not stating that there wouldn’t be racism in Finland, but not any more than in any other European country.
Enrique
February 21, 2010
–Read it.
I have and it is a great book. I also like Mika Waltari very much. Aino Kallas is another great writer if we look at the classics.
Markus
February 22, 2010
“Tiwaz, I guess you not even read your own papers. At least watch some TV to update yourself.
Finland needs immigrant because;
1- aged population
2- lack of manpower.
3- Lots of diseases which has genetic reasons and therefore Fins should mix up with non-Fins to fix the problem”
1) Is really not a big deal, the big post war baby boom generations have by far and large retired with average retirement age being ~60. Having a disproportionately large pensioner population will partially be solved in less than 20 years time kind of sort of naturally after which remainder will be due to longer life expectancy rather than size of age cohorts. More to the point immigrants would only alleviate the problem if they as a whole actually had positive impact on national economy which is not the case for the time being. Its kind of funny we should take perhaps hundreds of thousand of uneducated immigrants who might be ready for the job market when the cause for the professed need was already gone, well literally dead and buried.
2) Unemployment hitting half a mil hardly supports notion of lack of man power.
3) Ironic as it may be this argument is in essence pure racism as it implies genetic inferiority of the indigenous people. Well its also totally folly. Its like arguing Russians do not have sufficient genetic variation because the last Romanov heir to throne suffered of most severe hemophilia.
Kind of only leaves the absolute value of multiculturalism and diversity which believe or not is debatable. Sure diversity and all that shit may be beneficial but at what cost.
Incidentally what is Finland anyway. If Finland is the state entity or geographical area closed by its borders it really has no needs as such. If it is the government and enterprises I could not care less.
If it is the still quite homogeneous indigenous people that inhabit it I rather think we are the best judges for our needs. Quite frankly at this time bulk of the immigrants we Finns need about as much as I need syphilis in my dick. If you find this offensive do recall the numerous messages where Finns were painted 99% racist rednecks and do not hesitate to get lost.
xyz
February 23, 2010
Its kind of funny we should take perhaps hundreds of thousand of uneducated immigrants
-Who said that all of them are uneducated?
-Unemployment hitting half a mil hardly supports notion of lack of man power.
-Not only in Finland. Question is if all immigrants in every country would move back to their home countries, would it make the situation better?
Kind of only leaves the absolute value of multiculturalism and diversity which believe or not is debatable. Sure diversity and all that shit may be beneficial but at what cost.
-Tell this all those Finns working not in Finland
Stadilainen
February 23, 2010
“It’s kind of funny we should take perhaps hundreds of thousand of of uneducated immigrants”
Whoa, hey. Generalization, much?
Also, Markus, about your third point… I don’t really think that it’s racist as much as a fact. In every nation there are the trademark illnesses that can be avoided by mixing into foreign dna that has possibly the ability of resistance. This does not involve only the Finns – this fact is true on a global level and does not put any human beneath the status of another
alien
February 23, 2010
This is to Markus:
You said:
3) Ironic as it may be this argument is in essence pure racism as it implies genetic inferiority of the indigenous people. Well its also totally folly. Its like arguing Russians do not have sufficient genetic variation because the last Romanov heir to throne suffered of most severe hemophilia.
Kind of only leaves the absolute value of multiculturalism and diversity which believe or not is debatable. Sure diversity and all that shit may be beneficial but at what cost.
Have you ever though why you have inflated red skins? Pretty much like monkeys ass! That is because you have been deprived of sun light. Mongolism is another syndrome which its rate is high compared with your population. The reason is too much mating within yourself. These are examples of your problems which can be fixed by mixing with some dudes coming from Africa, America or middle east. So you should take that a a favor to your gene correction!
Then you said:
quite frankly at this time bulk of the immigrants we Finns need about as much as I need syphilis in my dick. If you find this offensive do recall the numerous messages where Finns were painted 99% racist rednecks and do not hesitate to get lost.
First of all dude, I took your advice and said fuck you Markus and your ugly monkey face. I am also saying to others what you are saying to the immigrants: get a good education, get good skills, have fun with nice Finnish girls, and show your middle finger to Markus and Tiwaz and say good bye! So dude you owe me one, because I helped you in here.
Second:
What dick? Dont flatter yourself! if you had dick your women would not line up for immigrant’s dudes! be realistic, I admit that most of immigrants are without education and live there to torture you, but you also need to be realistic. Alcohol and cold has not left any thing for you.
Markus
February 24, 2010
“Also, Markus, about your third point… I don’t really think that it’s racist as much as a fact.”
No it really is not at all a fact its a by far and large a perpetrated myth, and even if it was a fact it would be racist with the conventional definition of racism:
“1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race”
that is from Webster’s and really it makes no provisions for fact ans as a matter of fact genetic variation amongst Finns is actual bigger than on the average amongst European ethnic groups.
Again ironic as it may be apart in Europe real inbreeding problems are found in ethnic minorities for prevalent first cousin marriages e.g.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2005/11_november/16/newsnight.shtml
But really, Aliens response by far and large painted a picture of a racist bigoted oath, in comparison guys like Tiwaz and yours truly are mere quire-boys. I would not go as far as call him an idiot, as some idiots might actually find it offensive. Oh and this monkey face is not exactly heart broken by his decision to leave, I just do hope the door did hit his ass on the way out. By the way in my original message there was no reference to race or ethnic background.
There really is a simple recipe for successful immigration, “tit for tat”, but it really is not working in Europe in general or in Finland in particular, hence resentment.
Markus
February 24, 2010
Kind of only leaves the absolute value of multiculturalism and diversity which believe or not is debatable. Sure diversity and all that shit may be beneficial but at what cost.
-Tell this all those Finns working not in Finland
Seen it, done it, been there, got the T-shirt. I have worked and studied in the US and Italy for the European Commission.
Never felt the need to be considered somehow specially valued for being an alien. Never felt my foreign passport meant I was making an extra contribution to the society, fit pretty well in the US society but felt pretty alien in Italy, as I have come to understand most foreigners working in the JRC did.
Diversity and multiculturalism have essentially turned into dogma, too much religion is never good be that Christianity, Islam or the blessings of multiculturalism as in promoting essentially segregated ethnic cultures sharing a state. Actually it almost is a contridiction in terms.
To digress, a bit of polemic writing and alien was in up and arms with personal insult. So I guess I should narrow my earlier statement: Immigrants like Alien here Finns need about as much as I need syphilis in my dick, which still is fully intact unlike, I suspect, aliens.
Markus
February 24, 2010
“1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race”
Vis-a-vis
Have you ever though why you have inflated red skins? Pretty much like monkeys ass! That is because you have been deprived of sun light. Mongolism is another syndrome which its rate is high compared with your population. The reason is too much mating within yourself. These are examples of your problems which can be fixed by mixing with some dudes coming from Africa, America or middle east. So you should take that a a favor to your gene correction!
Nuf said…. and I am the racist here….
Mating with one self is kind of sort of called masturbation and not very effective for reproductive purposes. Would be a good idea for Africa though as chances for development in Africa are literally being devoured by rapidly growing population.
xyz
February 24, 2010
Seen it, done it, been there, got the T-shirt. I have worked and studied in the US and Italy for the European Commission.
-You see this is the difference…you have worked there
Enrique
February 24, 2010
Markus, your comments are quite offensive and they show how much out of touch you are with reality. “Homogenous, indigenous” people?! What is that? Some lost race or species living isolated from the outside world. Your views of yourself as well as that of oursiders are lodged deep in the twentieth century, in eugenics and myths. I hope somebody reads your comment a decade.
If you have a syphilis problem I think you should go and see a doctor. Penicillen should do the job.
Enrique
February 24, 2010
Markus, your comments are quite offensive and they show how much out of touch you are with reality. “Homogenous, indigenous” people?! What is that? Some lost race or species living isolated from the outside world? Your views of yourself as well as that of oursiders is lodged deep in the twentieth century, in eugenics and myths. I hope somebody reads your comment a decade from now to see how some Finns saw themselves and the outside world.
If you have a syphilis problem I think you should go and see a doctor. Penicillen should do the job.
Markus
February 24, 2010
Markus, your comments are quite offensive and they show how much out of touch you are with reality. “Homogenous, indigenous” people?! What is that?
It is a matter of fact Finland is still inhabited almost 98% percent by ethnic Finns sharing roughly the same culture and set of values. Pretty much everything in Finland, be that good or bad, has essentially been up to Finns. It was not a value statement it was a fact.
Finland certainly is of no absolute value to me, the damned country was established to somehow protect the interests of the Finns like all national states in Europe and now we should not only give it up on canter but also retain the welfare state we cannot possibly finance in long term. No thanks, I’d rather drop out and marginalize myself.
Again for 20th century eugenics read what Alien writes and check back after that. Do note I have not made a single comment on racial or genetic inferiority of anyone nor have I really even hinted on importance of preserving some genetic purity.
Oh and the offensive bits, they were intended as such to demonstrate you the jest of some of the commentary on this thread. You sure can shovel it but can you take it? Oh I can tick more than 3 points of your list, hence I am a victim of racism in Finland or maybe not.
Markus
February 24, 2010
Perhaps I should keep my peace at this point but here goes…
My initial comment simply countered the three point list why Finland should take more immigrants. Why we should be humbled by your presence and the sacrifices you supposedly make to deliver us inbred monkeys with inflamed ah sorry inflated skins from evil. It hardly touched your subjective right to live or not to live in Finland, well perhaps the offensive bit did but there you have it.
I don’t give a flying fuck if you are orange green or purple in hue, don’t make you any better or any worse than me even though I am just a lowly inbred descendant of a primate.
Markus
February 24, 2010
Seen it, done it, been there, got the T-shirt. I have worked and studied in the US and Italy for the European Commission.
-You see this is the difference…you have worked there
Come again, “working not in Finland”, where?
Oh you talk about the unemployed, brilliant. There already are nearly half a million unemployed that must be provided for, well lets take a million extra people to boost the number up to one and a half million which would be inevitable even if every single new immigrant found employment unless a plethora of new meaning full job opportunities were created or unless the newly unemployed nearly million Finns skipped the country.
Well I would not hold my breath waiting in dwindling industrial economy as Finland heavily dependent on struggling export industries, and no service society is not an option, 10 million Germans for starters are unlikely to fly Helsinki for a hair cut or pizza to balance the credit on 50 000 cars imported from Germany.
xyz
February 24, 2010
Why do you buy a German car if you can’t afford it?
Is it an immigrants fault if you have so many unemployed (as you sait Finns built their whole country by themselves)?
xyz
February 24, 2010
Lets say you send all immigrants home..then you have still 450.000 unemployed if the current figure is 500.000. Does this solve the problem? Who to blame then?
xyz
February 24, 2010
Tiwaz, about your comment “all Finns behave if they go to other countries” here an article for you:
http://www.helsinkitimes.org/htimes/domestic-news/general/9428-nearly-200-finns-jailed-abroad.html
it also says concerning your “have your documents ready”:
“Finns are more often refused entry due to an expired residence permit or inadequate documents”
I was wondering if you maybe also have a false imagination? Maybe you can agree to the point that no nationality is perfect?
alien
February 24, 2010
Hej Markus boy:
I see your red hole is tickled by my comments. For my only comment you responded 6 times. So dont pretend that your monkey ass face is not blushed. Oh yes “tit for tat” works. You mixture of shit and semen (Yes, exactly that which came to your mind) think that you can insult us and go away easily. You expect to be respected, you respect people. Otherwise we fix your filthy mouth like this.
Take that rag out of your ears and eyes, you cannot jack off your shit racist ideas and people be quite with you. Why? Because your are SUOMALAINEN? Vai Suomi on Suomalaisille?
About me being a racist. Perhaps I am for you. About you being inferior, I guess you are and I am not going to hide it.
I am an educated, polite Gentleman. At the same time I know that Finns should be treated tough, otherwise they show their traits as they have during assisting Nazis. So if you think we are syphilis, I think you look like my dick after masturbation!
Markus
February 25, 2010
I am an educated, polite Gentleman.
You mixture of shit and semen (Yes, exactly that which came to your mind) think that you can insult us and go away easily. You expect to be respected, you respect people. Otherwise we fix your filthy mouth like this.
Yeah right….
Markus
February 25, 2010
“Lets say you send all immigrants home..then you have still 450.000 unemployed if the current figure is 500.000. Does this solve the problem? Who to blame then?”
Where have I blamed immigrants for unemployment? Oh you mean that since there already is half a million unemployed we are up certain creek without certain instrument hence we might as well take a million more people into congested job market of a dwindling economy.
Markus
February 25, 2010
Oh incidentally, I am beginning to think Supo got your number spot on. A self appointed gentleman who apparently threatens with violence after a short internet spat is indeed a likely threat to public safety.
Then again a gentleman suffers fools gladly, you kind of sort of fall well short of that mark by taking my rants or actually single rant hook line and sinker. Me, I do not even want to be a gentleman, I much rather be an uncivilized asshole who does not suffer fools gladly and speaks his mind.
xyz
February 25, 2010
No you don’t have to take another million but there are people in Finland who are there for a different reason than “stealing jobs”.
xyz
February 25, 2010
They have a shortage in Cleaners and in Health Care. Maybe you can put the 500.000 unemployed into these jobs?
Markus
February 25, 2010
As far as I know for every cleaning job vacancy they get dozens of applicants. Some companies simply bring in foreign labor primarily from East-Asia to cut wages, not because labor is unavailable domestically. Health care is indeed understaffed and over worked in many places but its not due to shortage on labor but on policy of not hiring more due to budget cuts.
Enrique
February 25, 2010
–Some companies simply bring in foreign labor primarily from East-Asia to cut wages, not because labor is unavailable domestically.
Markus, if you could provide me concrete information on this (employers and wages by email if you prefer) I could write a story on it. So what you are saying is that there is a lot of exploitation of immigrant labor in Finland.
Markus
February 25, 2010
http://yle.fi/mot/mv281002/kasikirjoitus.html
If you read Finnish
Concrete evidence I really can’t have beyond what filters to public domain but indeed some service industry companies have been accused for using under waged labor from China via an intermediary Chinese company. Case has been reported in public where a full time working Chinese have been deported because authorities have deemed pay insufficient for self support.
Believe it or not, a lot of Finns resent third world immigration because they fear employers want to build a new working poor labor class that pretty much went extinct during the 70′s and 80′s. It is like the Goobacks scenario in South Park.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goobacks
Markus
February 25, 2010
…. of course I do not know if the original question was sincere or a stab at my misinformed ego…
Enrique
February 25, 2010
I do read Finnsh and thank you for the information. As you know, generalizing is a sin and it has caused a lot of misunderstanding of the immigrant community in Finland. For your information, and if you were born in a so-called Third World country, only the most educated and most ambitious have the courage to leave and search for a new life afresh. That takes a lot of guts and determination. It is shameful that some belittle this by saying that they are all people without any education or that they are all clumped as “menial labor.”
Misinformation, or particularly loving our stereotypes, is a bad matter that does not lead to anything constructive. It is also sad that since Finland has seen so much immigration in the past we seem to have not learned enough about it.
Don’t you agree that if immigrants and refugees live in this country, they are entitled to the same rights as you. If the laws were applied equally we would not be having this discussion now.
Markus
February 25, 2010
For your information, and if you were born in a so-called Third World country, only the most educated and most ambitious have the courage to leave and search for a new life afresh.
But that really is no longer really the truth if it ever was. For example official estimates put illiteracy of adult Somalis at about 80%-90% upon arrival through family unification for example.
Enrique
February 25, 2010
–But that really is no longer really the truth if it ever was. For example official estimates put illiteracy of adult Somalis at about 80%-90% upon arrival through family unification for example.
This is what I mean and a good example: I asked you about those from Third World countries coming to Europe and you respond to me that illiteracy is so and so in Somalia. So, an illiterate person, who cannot read can find his way to Europe? You have it all wrong and your views are tainted. Does illiteracy mean that a person is dumb? What about all those Italian illiterates that immigrated in millions to North and South America? With hard work they built a future for their children and themselves.
One can learn to read and write. And, hey, I am only pointing this out because the majority of people who come from the Third World to Europe CAN read and write.
Could you give me the official study or information that states that 80% of Somalis in Finland cannot read nor write. Thank you.
xyz
February 25, 2010
Some service industry companies have been accused for using under waged labor from China via an intermediary Chinese company.
-Was just wondering what is actually better for a country…if a company moves away from a country and you have plenty of unemployed people or if a company stays in Finland and pays lower salaries…
Tuomas
February 25, 2010
“I know that Finns should be treated tough, otherwise they show their traits as they have during assisting Nazis.”
I’d appreciate if you refrain from making those kind of comments. Not everyone here is or thinks like Tiwaz & Co. Even if those people are monkeys you should not let them drag you into their level.
“Where have I blamed immigrants for unemployment? Oh you mean that since there already is half a million unemployed we are up certain creek without certain instrument hence we might as well take a million more people into congested job market of a dwindling economy.”
When speaking about unemployment in Finland one must remember that something like over half of all unemployed are either result of 90′s depression or other structural unemployment. As these people, in most cases, are in their 50′s and will be leaving for retirement after about a decade there is little or no point in adult education.
Knowing this there is little point, in my opinion, in arguing that immigrants will steal jobs from these people as there is no way that they can ever get employed in today’s Finland. Also, when talking about rest of the unemployed, you have to take into consideration that large number of them are so called socially excluded people.
This is yet another group that under current situation probably will not find regular employment.
In the future, we will need young people that are motivated and willing to work to support the large number of people that will never join the workforce, if we want to keep this welfare system on its feet.
alien
February 27, 2010
Oh incidentally, I am beginning to think Supo got your number spot on. A self appointed gentleman who apparently threatens with violence after a short internet spat is indeed a likely threat to public safety.
OH yes I am a big threat. I noticed that all of a sudden Finland was short of diapers. You too hurry before the Supo’s top supervisors buy them all.
…..
Then again a gentleman suffers fools gladly, you kind of sort of fall well short of that mark by taking my rants or actually single rant hook line and sinker. Me, I do not even want to be a gentleman, I much rather be an uncivilized asshole who does not suffer fools gladly and speaks his mind.
….
Fool or whatever. I banged as many as possible of your Mias or Pias, received 2 universities degrees, 10 years work experience, and now I am making jokes about you with my Swedish colleagues about how smart you are and how well you spotted a threat!
Congradu fucking lation !:)
And yes you are an uncivilized asshole (X-large type), who has been scared all your life. You are born scared, live scared, and will die scared when death shows itself to you in a silent Sunday of a house of rest to you waiting get your diaper changed. Such a sad story for most of a subordinate nation, who can never express itself in full extent, is always scared to ask why and has always kept some thing inside.
Perussuomalainen
March 2, 2010
First, Im a Finn. Things foreigners have said in this thread are just misconceptions.
Fact 1: Finns are not really that racist, they are just shy and sometimes rude. Fpor example Finnish customer service is really bad (for all). You are not experiencing racism, but just common Finnish behauvior.
Fact 2: Foreigners not getting a good job is not because of racism. It is because most Finns have university level education and also ethnic Finns with University education are unemployed or doing low-lewel work. Finns are over educated and this problem is very well-known. One big reason is also that many foreigners are refugees from third world countries and they cant even read or write. How could they have even low -lewel job, when University educated ethnic Finns are working as cleaners.
Fact 3: Foreigners coming to Finland are the ones who are racist. They hate Finns because Finns look different. Racist attacks against ethnic Finns are daily. These vicious attacks are made by gangs of racist Middle-East and Africans. Most racist people on earth are black South -Africans, Jamaicans and Blacks in US. Most violent hate crimes in West are made by blacks.
Enrique
March 3, 2010
Hi Perussuomalainen, welcome to our blog and thank you for your ideas.
I don’t want to turn this into a ping-pong match on racism. I think it is pretty fair that people who live in this country irrespective of their background can air their opinions and views. This is the reason why “Are you a target of racism in Finland” has over 10,000 hits and hundreds of comments: there aren’t many platforms where one can “let it all hang out” in this respect. If Finland is going to have more immigrants than in the past, those new members of society must have and abide by the same rights as anyone else. So, look at the comments in this post the following way: exercising one’s inalienable right to free expression no matter how much you may disagree with them.
There are European studies that have shown certain groups living in Finland suffer from constant harassment and hostility. In my home town in eastern Finland, some blacks have told me that they fear to go out at night because of being attacked by Skinheads and drunkards. That is a fact and the only way of solving it is by grabbing the bull by the horns. I hope that we may live in a country where in the future people will be judged by who they are and not by their ethnic background. Bigotry and discrimination will only weaken Finland.
I agree totally with you: racism is a two-way street. It should be nipped from the bud in all groups. However, if you are the host and control all the economic and political power the racism used impacts in a different way than those who don’t have such resources at hand. It is more a source of resentment among minorities – not a product of systematic action to exclude and marginalize others from society.
Karo
March 10, 2010
THC you are my hero, know that. You took words right out of my mouth and wrote them on this blog. Enrique is what creators of South Park call a Hippie Liberal Douchebag. Truth hurts but it is pretty obvious. I have known this for so long and finally I can say it. You have given me the means to attack HIM, who is the primary problem in this blog. I am talking of course about Enrique.
Thank you THC thank you so very much. I’d put a part of your magnificent writing in here but I don’t know how
alien you make me very sad, but thanks to all the Gods of the world that you have found happiness. I consider you a warning example of what I might become in the future. There is nothing more terrifying than an intelligent man that has suffered a very very severe setback. Though I must say you have an excellent sense of humour. I must say I was really impressed about your little talk to our good messmate Markus, you know the one about shit and semen?
Go with christ,or whatever, alien. Know this, if THC is my God, then you are my equal. Peace out Mon!!
Enrique
March 10, 2010
Hi Karo, I will leave your anonymous and humorous comment for others to judge. The truth hurts? Why then are you then attacking me? The problem with some people as yourself is that they cannot handle a debate and then they lose it all and get all personal with labels flying left and right. Why don’t you debate like a man with self-esteem? Use your gray matter and show that you brought up in a country that had the guts to stand up to a huge neighbor in the Winter War? Why the anonymous hit-and-run tacics? Come on, you can do better than that. Get out of the closet. Nobody will hit you no matter how exteme your ideas may be.
Karo
March 11, 2010
Hehehehehehehe, minun nimeni on Karo, ihan Karo vaan.
Enrique
March 11, 2010
hahahahahahaha! Well, Karo, don’t come out and stay in the closet.
Karo
March 11, 2010
Mutta et saa ikinä ja tarkoitan ikinä kutsua minua Kartsaksi. Varoitan sinua se saa minut raivoihini.
Karo
March 11, 2010
Well, I suppose I have to get serious soon, or otherwise you’ll never begin to respect me.
In the beginning you are comparing racism to alcoholism.
Excuse me for saying this, but this is a rather poor comparison if you ask me.
Karo
March 11, 2010
Racism cannot be compared to alcoholism. If a person chooses to become a racist that is his choice, but you cannot choose to be an alcoholic. These two things have almost nothing in common.
Enrique
March 11, 2010
–In the beginning you are comparing racism to alcoholism. Excuse me for saying this, but this is a rather poor comparison if you ask me.
Excuse me?! When did I compare racism to alcoholism?! So what are you saying is that racism is a choice you made? You are breaking up.
Enrique
March 11, 2010
–Mutta et saa ikinä ja tarkoitan ikinä kutsua minua Kartsaksi. Varoitan sinua se saa minut raivoihini.
Are you ok?
Karo
March 11, 2010
Alcohol is a drug, well sort of but a racist has always chosen to act the way he does. To compare alcoholism to racism is just too simple. Racism is an ideal, a very dangerous and perverse ideal, and an alcoholism is an addiction.
But with enough knowledge and understanding racist will learn to know better, I know this is just too childish isn’t it?
But the little racism test you tried to create is a joke. There is no man, woman or child who could openly admit your pointers. Okay I’am getting ahead of myself this questionaire was intended for foreigners.
But, it still does not do its job. Only immigrants who feel that their life in Finland has been hell, no worse than hell can identify themselves with your “Alcoholicks Anonyoumous” list. You can see it for yourself if you just re-read the opening discussions on this blog. Like that poor black comedian on a “booze cruise”. If you think you know Finnish-Culture, then tell me Enrique what kind of Finn doesn’t do those kinds of things? What kind of Finn does not try to play crab-ass with pretty chicas on a booze cruise, or drink him/herself silly, or rape and humiliate nice and delicate men? The poor black comedian bloke just was in a wrong place at the wrong time. We must realize that the situatiation i a booze cruise is totally diffrent than the situation on land.
And one more thing, a black guy and a comedian? Now there’s a combination that spells doom. Most average Finns have serious issues with witty and oh ever so charming black guys. I should know that all too well, and trust me this ain’t no joke.
Enrique
March 11, 2010
If discrimination exists in Finland, how does it manifest itself? On the surface it seems like a fair question but as you tried to understand it better it becomes more complex. Compared with what people in countries such as the United States and Canada consider racist behavior, in many respects we are many decades behind in our behavior. One of the reasons, as you pointed out, is because people don’t know better. Education and first-hand experience with immigrants can correct that problem.
I never aimed that the test below is the ultimate truth that uncovers what racism is in Finland. The AA test is also very absolute: two yes answers and you are most definitely an alcoholist. What is alcoholism? Social scientists don’t define the problem in this respect. Drinking has negative physical consequences but it also enforces lines of inclusion – we share information while we drink and strengthen our bond with it.
Let me explain why I think all these aspects touch upon discrimination in Finland. In some countries where there are immigrants, you only need one to be a victim. So having two is stretching it…. As I mentioned, it is ONLY a test.
1) I am self-employed (for some it is the only way of employment).
Comment: Unemployment among immigrants is many times higher than among Finns. For some, the ONLY way to get a job is by establishing a company. Even though we can debate the various reasons for high immigrant unemployment, it is a clear sign that there is something wrong and that equal opportunity is at the heart of the matter.
2) I’m unemployed (generally jobless claims among foreigners totals about 20%)
Comment: See number 1.
3) Finns often give me strange looks
Comment: Some Finns are very conscious about distance when they interact with people. Come too close and you are infringing on his/her space. Staring at people is the same thing and considered rude among some Finns. Some women see it even as sexual harassment if we took it to the extreme.
4) Public officials, like the police, drag their heels with me
Comment: It is a common fact – as long as somebody else is handling your matters belonging to another group you will never get the understanding and support you need. We need more Finns with immigrant backgrounds and immigrants to fill municipal jobs.
5) The police consider me guilty before proving my innocence
Comment: The police have always been one of the most suspicious institutions of immigrants. Before Finland got its first “aliens’ act” in 1983 (Think! About 75 years after independence!), all immigration matters were handled by the police. They were never interested in civil rights. They saw immigrants as a threat; “keep the trash out” and “the criminals” was/is their reasoning. Certainly there are policemen who do their job as model law-enforecement professionals. Eila Kännö, however, was a police inspector.
6) A Finn treats me too nicely
Comment: It’s nice to be the center of attraction but if you treat a person equally, you treat him like anyone else – NOT because he belongs to this or that group. Such behavior can easily turn into patronizing, which is a no, no.
7) Finns are distrustful of me
Comment: Does this need any explanation taking into account our history as an independent nation in the last century. What is pretty interesting is not only the non-existent aliens’ act until 1983, but Finland had very draconian rules against foreign investment. Check out the Restricting Act of 1939 that was abolished in 1995, when we became EU members.
8 Finns are usually watching over me at work (I have to be twice as good as a Finn)
Comment: It is like the labelled kid at school. He will always get the blame and harsher treatment because he/she is mistrusted.
9) If I make a mistake, it’s a bigger deal than normal
Comment: See number 8.
10) In a debate, I always know less than a Finn
Comment: This has to do with mistrust. How can you accept a person’s arguments whom you mistrust?
So, as you can see, these are in my opinion valid observations that I have picked up while living on a semi-permanent basis in Finland for over 30 years. I am not stating that this is THE racist test because such a phenomenon is difficult to pinpoint. However, they are valid matters that may keep you down from realizing yourself as a human being in Finland.
For your information, this post has over 10,000 hits and over 1,000 comments. What do you think its popularity is telling us? That there is no racism in Finland? Or that it is not being taken seriously enough by the authorities? Or a bit of the both or none of the above?
I will leave that question for the readers to decide.
Karo
March 11, 2010
This blog tells me better than anything I’ve ever read that there is no easy answer to this problem.
I’d also like to say that I underestimated you, you know more about Finnish Culture than I thought. If you don’t mind any of finnish straightforwardness, I think you are just hopelessly optimistic.
,
Enrique
March 11, 2010
–I’d also like to say that I underestimated you, you know more about Finnish Culture than I thought. If you don’t mind any of finnish straightforwardness, I think you are just hopelessly optimistic.
Hopelessly optimistic? Should we be hopelessly pessimistic? To be honest, I think many immigrants who live in this country do so because they also consider this their new “home sweet home.” Nothing is free in life and you have to fight for a place in the sun…
Karo
March 12, 2010
You are right about that, no reason to fall into despair.
“We (finns) are many decades behind in our behavior”. Sorry, but for the Finland to get into the level of United States or Canada may not take many decades, it may take a hundred years. But it could also happen in decades, if we are lucky and the progress is same it may even take decades, as you said. The more I think about it the more sad I find the situation in Beloved Finland, but since you have seen how long this country, land and it’s people have come in thirty years, you cant deny we have made progress. We can also always make more progress, and we will, we don’t have a choice.
Enrique
March 12, 2010
–You are right about that, no reason to fall into despair.
If we look at Finnish history, Finns adapt to change very rapidly. If we look at the creation of Nokia as a global leader in mobile phones and after the war, when 400,000 Karelians left their homes and found new ones. It all happened very rapidly. This is why I think that we won’t have to wait for decades for things to change. If there is something positive that immigration can offer to Finnsh society, people will accept it pretty rapidly as a normal part of our society.
Karo
March 12, 2010
Youre a good man Enrique. We have our diffrences but we can and we will understand each other. Only problem in your latest text is that majority of the Finns, aren’t ready for multiculturalism, which has made for example United States such a powerful superpower, that is fully capable to threaten us all.
Enrique
March 12, 2010
Karo, we can and will continue to debate this fascinating topic. Even though we disagree we can always listen and learn from each other. I look forward to hearing your comments in the future.
Karo
March 12, 2010
Thanks mate, I appreciate that.
Tiwaz
March 12, 2010
-”If we look at Finnish history, Finns adapt to change very rapidly. If we look at the creation of Nokia as a global leader in mobile phones and after the war, when 400,000 Karelians left their homes and found new ones. It all happened very rapidly. This is why I think that we won’t have to wait for decades for things to change. If there is something positive that immigration can offer to Finnsh society, people will accept it pretty rapidly as a normal part of our society.”
But do you see what is essential in rapid adaptation…
UNITY! Unity through shared language and culture. Finns were able to pull off what they did only throgh being united as one people working for common goal.
Show me multicultural society which can claim the same. You can’t. Because multiculturalism is not about unity, but division.
-”Only problem in your latest text is that majority of the Finns, aren’t ready for multiculturalism, which has made for example United States such a powerful superpower, that is fully capable to threaten us all.
”
Or you could read history and notice that what made USA strong was not multiculturalism, but being in right place at right time.
WW2 made USA, multiculturalism is breaking it.
Post WW2 USA was only developed nation which had not faced horrors of war. And only one which had massive natural resources to run it’s economy.
If USA had not made huge rise to power, it would have been greater miracle than that it did.
Also, we have to realize that at that time USA was very strongly WASP-nation. White, Ango-Saxon and Protestant.
Today, USA is economy on it’s last legs. Various multiculturalist policies like “positive discrimination” are destroying what they wanted to be strongly capitalist system. Instead they have worst mixtures of both socialism and capitalism.
Because their society is so heavily divided, they cannot pull off what Finland did after WW2, crouch their shoulders, grunt and start working together to fix their nation.
Instead, USA spends most of it’s energy in petty internal politics and dick waving competitions between Republicans and Democrats, cityfolk vs rural, this ethnicity vs that ethnicity…
USA is prime example on how multiculturalism can ruin nation which has so much potential.
alien
March 12, 2010
Multicultural !!! Threat or opportunity?
About USA: What is breaking USA if it is, is not multiculturalism in my opinion. It is rather the incapable and contradictory nature of Capitalism in which PROFIT is the core and essence of the social-economic activities (not the happiness of man kind). Now we have reached to last phase of Capitalism, Imperialism, in which capital is being exported and exploitation reaches its arm beyond the national border. The huge mighty system in USA is getting to dead end because its first mission is to secure the safety of capitalist’s interests beyond its borders. This process engenders more enemies and animosity which its pressure eventually affect the integrity of the system.
It could also be explained by the laws of evolution, in that a phenomena cannot or may not expand forever, but sooner or later it has to give it’s place to the one which is inevitable to emerge and has enough fuel to run the coming distance (China).
Now when it comes to Multiculturalism, USA correctly has taken the most advantage of it. Without no doubt the major number of the US scientists have migrated to US in last than 70 years. The great infrastructure is capable of incorporating such a precious asset. This in my opinion is the major force behind what makes USA, USA as well as being untouched after WW2.
About Finland: I dont know! Maybe Tiwaz is right. That is the best for Finland (Iron Fist wrapped in white gloves against immigrants). Off course for me as an immigrant is not good, and I had to do some thing about it (I left) and you are doing some thing about it (hoping and trying to change it). But by no mean one can compare the conditions in a small country like Finland with larger, more populated or older countries.
Cheers all
Ari
March 14, 2010
I am immigrant in Finland who came here with a work and now work and also run a business here. I believe there is no point in making a cry oven the fact that racism exist in Finland or not. I do my work to the best of my abilities, follow the rules and respect the authorities. I don’t care what anyone thinks of me. The world we live in is not perfect it never is in any country even in my own. I have accepted that fact by experience. Lets not dwell on what is negative rather use the positive things (there are a lot of positive things here just give it a try). I have received help from a lot of Finnish people and again been judged as evil by some but at the end goodness and honesty always wins.
Finns are intelligent enough to apprecite hard work. That’s the keyword. First do that for a few years and then complain if it doen not work.
Enrique
March 15, 2010
Hi Ari, welcome to Migrant Tales. I am certain that with such an attitude brings paves the way for many good things. It is the right attitude for success. However, there is so much we can do by hoping. On a personal level it can work but on a wider scope this approach is questionable.
I believe that most people that live in this country want to make the best of their lives. Nobody is underestimating Finns as “stupid” because that would place some of us in the same level as the worst racists in this country. However, it is important that immigrants raise their voice and start to take a more active role in THEIR society. One of the semantic tricks used to disenfranchise some immigrant groups in Finland is stressing the “us” and “them.” This is a trap because in the end it means that the majority does not have to make any concessions since the “them” are immigrants from somewhere else and therefore have no moral right to ask anything except to be grateful for allowing one to be here.
An important point is the following: We will not see matters change fully on the racism/discrimination but we can work to ensure that our children and grand children will be able to live in a more understanding society.
Enrique
March 15, 2010
–Multicultural !!! Threat or opportunity?
Hi Alien, I hope you are well. There is a big difference between the United States being a country that receives its power from immigrants and how it uses it. I personally believe that the first cracks in the United States as a world power came after the fall of the Soviet Union. While it would be wrong to state that capitalism will disappear, it will take on a new form as it has throughout time. A form of capitalism existed in Babylon and I am certain also during the Persian Empire.
One of the biggest mistakes the United States was to be blinded by its hubris and the sheer stupidity and greed of the Bush administration.
Enrique
March 15, 2010
–UNITY! Unity through shared language and culture. Finns were able to pull off what they did only throgh being united as one people working for common goal.
Tiwaz, your view of others is not only flawed, but scientifically wrong. People can identify with one country and be diverse from society. It happens in Finnish society today. If you want a good example of a mistaken sense of national identity, study the Nazi regime. Germany was never monocultural but the Nazis thought or wanted to make it as such. Look at all the death and destruction they caused because of a stupid view of themselves. One of the main ideologues of Nazi racist policies was Alfred Rosenberg, an architect-turned-eugenics-”specialist”-philosopher on race. When you speak of monoculturalism and the need to preserve it, you are playing with fire.
Fortunately our society is not like Germany in 1933 and we have enough examples of what that type of idology brought on Europe. Are we going to embrace it again through parties such as the BNP in England and other ones in the same spirit? Those that spill out this type of racial fair tales and attempt to build walls of hatred will end up digging their own political graves. If you think I am exaggerating, these parties that base their opportunistic programs on hatred don’t have a single answer on how they want to realize their policies. Certainly they are asking you to vote for them and then what? Change the constitution? Kick out all the immigrants they don’t like? Build higher walls? All they are doing is bitching and complaining.
alien
March 15, 2010
Dear Enrique:
I am fine and I hope you and your family are doing well as well.
“The history of man kind is the history of struggle between the classes.” (Karl Marx). I am not a Marxist, at least not from a pure political sense. If I want to complement your saying I should say that your reference to the old times and existence of sort of capitalism, or I would rather say struggle between classes, is completely true.
USA is certainly a great country. It is enough just pay attention to statistic, and we find that it holds no:1 in many fields. Explaining such a country and it’s greatness by only immigrant factor, is not correct and enough. Off course the country is formed by immigrants and for immigrants. but such a huge machine is more complex to be explained simply as such.
I am studying MBA and we have lot of discussion regarding USA and the whole capitalist world. Some of very bright of us from whom I learn a lot, correctly emphasize that we know that Capitalism is not all that great and not perfect at all, but that is the best mechanism that we know.
In other word even my right wing friends know that Capitalism is the source of exploitation and many complexes, in that cannot be defended, but they have got no alternative to bring up a more just system without democracy and individualism be compromised!
The history of man kind is the history of migration from old to new. Therefore it is inevitable that even Capitalism should some day be replaced by some thing newer, and better.
Cheers
Enrique
March 15, 2010
Hi Alien, that’s great that you are doing you MBA. One of my sons is planning to study economics this fall. Even though he is fascinated by stock markets and the world of finance, I always tell him that we must abide by certain values and morals. If a society loses such values it loses its way and begins to die.
Marx was the only social thinker in the 19th century that questioned capitalism and the ills of the industrial revolution so vociferously. Even though Marxism is being put in cold storage after its heyday in Russia and other parts of the world, it does not mean that humanity is now going to accept free capitalism in the form of economic neoliberalism. I have been a business/energy journalist most of my life and have a rough idea how it works. However, there is an interesting question: is growth eternal? Is the sky the limit? What happens when a child is born in the West or in the United States? What does it imply environmentally for the rest of the globe?
We are the prisoners of our misery. Nations and banks grew thanks to war (see Paul Kennedy, The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers). Now we need a global effort to save our planet but we don’t know where to start because our nations, education and culture cannot deal with real global understanding and cooperation.
To make matters worse, we humans are so adaptable that they even adapt to our misery. Incredible, no?
JethaLal
March 17, 2010
Please do not go to Finland ever.
Trust me, Finns are most racist people on entire earth.
They hate black people.
They hate yellow people.
They have everybody who is not white.
We should start world wide protest.
JethaLal
March 17, 2010
We need Finnish Martin Luther King or Gandhi very soon.
Tiwaz
March 18, 2010
-”Tiwaz, your view of others is not only flawed, but scientifically wrong.”
Proof?
-”People can identify with one country and be diverse from society.”
No they cannot. Society is more important than nation, as proven by USA.
Read study “Bowling alone” where proper scientist has noted that social cohesion falling apart in USA has resulted in the people no longer being comfortable around one another.
Leading to lack of trust in not only in their fellow people but also in nation itself.
And this is in exessively nation-patriotic nation of USA.
-”Germany was never monocultural but the Nazis thought or wanted to make it as such. Look at all the death and destruction they caused because of a stupid view of themselves.”
Could you point out what massive cultural differences existed in Germany?
Jews and gypsies were targeted specifically because they were obvious and nonrelevant part of society.
In Finland jews had assimilated to society, leading to completely different situation.
As we have seen with Yugoslavia, Iraq, Rwanda and dozens if not hundreds of other places, it is failure of community to be unified through shared values and principles when violence and misery starts.
xyz
March 24, 2010
There is almost daily an article about Immigrants in Yle. Today 3 articles about Russians in Finland:
http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2010/03/ombudsman_russians_skill_set_often_ignored_1555992.html?origin=rss
http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2010/03/russians_speakers_feel_second-class_in_finland_1555819.html?origin=rss
http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2010/03/russian_life_in_finland_not_always_easy_1556638.html?origin=rss
xyz
March 24, 2010
Could you point out what massive cultural differences existed in Germany?
Because of the multicultural and multilingual history of Central Europe, the population of the German Empire consisted of people with different mother tongues. However 92.5% of the population had German as their first language, a figure significantly higher than other big countries of the time (Britain, France, Russia).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Empire
Tiwaz
March 25, 2010
You did not prove that there was major cultural difference on scale of say German-French.
People from Savo and people from Häme have slight differences, they are both still Finns and when either one is compared to random Swede, they are practically identical.
Try again xyz.
Enrique
March 25, 2010
Tiwaz, do you think that there are huge cultural differences between the French and German? Or are the differences created by history and what´s in between people’s ears?
xyz
March 25, 2010
Two of my work colleagues are French
Tiwaz
March 26, 2010
-”Tiwaz, do you think that there are huge cultural differences between the French and German? Or are the differences created by history and what´s in between people’s ears?”
Do you think French and Germans are just like one another?
Would making it Germans and Spanish make it better for you?
You gotta go find a doctor to check up on you. Your eyesight for one is appalling.
I’ll give you a hint… When walking, I have about 70-90% chance of knowing who is Russian before they open their mouth.
How? Because of cultural habits. They have distinct way to dress compared to Finns.
And yes, differences are made by history and what is between their ears. It is called having a culture. You should try it sometime.
Your obsession with genetics is honestly rather stupid.
Never I have seen anyone else in this blog pull genetics to the equation, we speak how cultures are incompatible.
Culture defines us. Which is why I rather accept as fellow Finn someone born to Gambian parents in Gambia but adopted to Finland while a baby and raised as Finn here than “Finn” who has Finnish grandparents but has never been in Finland, cannot speak the language and has no cultural connection.
xyz
March 26, 2010
I also have work mates from Spain and Poland here too. No problem at all working with them. We even go out together in the city
Don’t really understand what problems Tiwaz has? If Finns go abroad then I also have the right to live in Finland otherwise there might be something wrong with your sense of equality.
Tiwaz
March 26, 2010
-”I also have work mates from Spain and Poland here too. No problem at all working with them. We even go out together in the city
”
And you are all foreigners in Ireland.
Beyond which, you all speak ENGLISH, language rather widely used by natives too.
What if Ireland was purely irish speaking.
How you guys would get along there then?
-”Don’t really understand what problems Tiwaz has? If Finns go abroad then I also have the right to live in Finland otherwise there might be something wrong with your sense of equality.”
You have right to live in Finland, you just do not have right to live in Finland, pretend you live in Waziristan and expect to be treated as anything but barbarian.
When in Finland your cultural norms and Finnish cultural norms are in conflict, YOU are wrong 100% of the time.
My sense of equality is that natives make the rules of polite and proper behavior in their native land.
If others abroad do not stand up for their culture, instead settling to being doormats before immigrants in name of political correctness and multiculturalism it is not my problem.
If Finns go abroad and act as badly as great deal of immigrants Finland receives, I have no problem accepting that those Finns are treated badly abroad.
But don’t expect me to lift a finger over them. If they are in your country, they are your headache.
Tiwaz
March 26, 2010
You see, xyz, there is fundamental difference in Finnish look on the world and what you foreigners appear to think.
This is best explained through example.
Quite some time ago, Finnish woman in some barbaric Middle Eastern nation ended up punished, beaten with cane I think, as a punishment for public kissing.
Similar things do take place in other nations. Australians getting caught smuggling goods to say Singapore and so forth.
Finns call girl idiot because she should use her brain and figure out that when they leave Finland, they leave Finnish society and laws behind.
Aussies, and rest of them, scream bloody murder when one of their idiots tries to smuggle drugs in Asia and has their head chopped off.
Both cases are essentially same. One idiot went to foreign nation breaking a law. Specially bad this idiocy is with drug smuggling because everyone should by now have figured out to google punishments for such crimes in Asia.
But approach is different. Finns hold people responsible for themselves. You foreigners apparently have decided that individual should have no responsibility of consequences of their actions.
I smuggle drugs, but should be exempt from local law.
I refuse to learn Finnish, but I should be treated as if I did.
I do not have skills average 13 year old Finn has, I still should be hired to do job I can’t handle.
xyz
March 26, 2010
I think I have posted the link here that 300 Finns are in prison outside of Finland?!?
So why do Finns move to other countries and are not able to speak the local language? Finns are not better than foreigners. Once I talked with a Finnish guy about a job. He told me proud that he has lived 15 years abroad…in Israel etc. and he told me that I need to speak Finnish to get a job in his company.
Guess what, when I asked him if he was able to speak Arabic or Hebrew when he worked in Israel I didn’t get any answer back.
xyz
March 26, 2010
According to the Racial Equality Directive 2000/43/EC of the EU I am not 100% wrong when I am in conflict with Finnish culture.
http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=612
xyz
March 26, 2010
… o not have skills average 13 year old Finn has, I still should be hired to do job I can’t handle.
-How do you know that I don’t have the skills of an average 13 year old Finn?
But don’t expect me to lift a finger over them. If they are in your country, they are your headache.
-So should we sent them back or close the borders to Finland?
xyz
March 26, 2010
Finns call girl idiot because she should use her brain and figure out that when they leave Finland, they leave Finnish society and laws behind.
-Somehow this tells me that there is something wrong with you…
Tiwaz
March 27, 2010
-”So why do Finns move to other countries and are not able to speak the local language? Finns are not better than foreigners. Once I talked with a Finnish guy about a job. He told me proud that he has lived 15 years abroad…in Israel etc. and he told me that I need to speak Finnish to get a job in his company.”
Again. So fucking what?
His company, his rules. He is not required to do what some Israeli company does.
Is it so hard for you to accept that Finns do not feel need to emulate you foreigners? We dare to make our OWN decisions and decide things which you foreigners do not. Like expect you to speak Finnish to work in our companies.
-”According to the Racial Equality Directive 2000/43/EC of the EU I am not 100% wrong when I am in conflict with Finnish culture.”
Read that law again. NOWHERE it requires employer to close their eyes if you behave wrong culturally. Your cultural norms according to that law do NOT overrule cultural norms of employer/interviewer.
Thus, if you act like an ass and because of that are not hired, you do not have a case. You ONLY have a case if your behavior during interview is appropriate and you are not hired because of your ethnic etc background.
But first you have to behave properly.
-”How do you know that I don’t have the skills of an average 13 year old Finn?”
You speak Finnish? No? Well, there you go.
EVERY customer contact job requires communicating with customer in their preferred language. In Finland, it is Finnish.
-”So should we sent them back or close the borders to Finland?”
Why you ask me? Are you a lamb who needs to be lead with leash?
-”Somehow this tells me that there is something wrong with you…”
Actually, it shows that you too are an idiot if you think people should ignore that some barbaric nations have barbaric laws.
Imbeciles travel abroad and do not first figure out what are basic cultural and legal aspects of society they are about to go to.
xyz
March 27, 2010
1. Ok, then tell me exactly how I should behave. Is there a good book or are there Finnish behavior training centers?
2. I didn’t say that my cultural norm should overrule the employers cultural norm. I am talking about equality and adaption from both sides.
3. Sorry, but I don’t want a customer contact job. And even then some companies may have foreign customers. Ok, most likely your 1 person company does not…
4. Why you can not answer me the question with your border and Finns living abroad? Most likely because its better to have 60.000 unemployed immigrants rather than 200.000 unemployed Finns? (not sure about the figures though)
5. Mr Finnish Taliban, unfortunately there is really something wrong with you if you say that Finns look at other Finns if they leave Finnish Society.
xyz
March 28, 2010
-”How do you know that I don’t have the skills of an average 13 year old Finn?”
You speak Finnish? No? Well, there you go.
–> Yup, but most likely the 13 years old Finn is not able to write a proper computer program nor know what a consolidated balance sheet is…despite the lack of social skills. Even older people lack of social skills (if you have a mirror you may find an example).
“Imbeciles travel abroad and do not first figure out what are basic cultural and legal aspects of society they are about to go to.”
-Whow, in case of Finns that is 5% of your population
By the way…if you are so skilled, why did you only get a temporary contract in the UK? I got a permanent contract here and earn much more than in Finland excl. benefits…plus I have the fun to work in an international team
Tiwaz
March 29, 2010
-”Ok, then tell me exactly how I should behave. Is there a good book or are there Finnish behavior training centers? ”
Watch, mimic, learn. That’s the way you learned cultural norms of your parents.
-”I didn’t say that my cultural norm should overrule the employers cultural norm. I am talking about equality and adaption from both sides.”
You adapt, employer pays. That is how it goes.
Expecting natives to adapt to you is arrogant, you as immigrant have to adapt to them.
-”Sorry, but I don’t want a customer contact job. And even then some companies may have foreign customers. Ok, most likely your 1 person company does not…”
So what? Have you noticed that Finns are quite capable of speaking multiple languages? We are expected to come out of mandatory schools with at least three.
-”Why you can not answer me the question with your border and Finns living abroad? Most likely because its better to have 60.000 unemployed immigrants rather than 200.000 unemployed Finns? (not sure about the figures though)”
I have answered your question. It does not matter how easily Finns are permitted to other countries or if their asses are considered gilded out there.
Finland is not required to copy behavior of those thations.
-”Yup, but most likely the 13 years old Finn is not able to write a proper computer program nor know what a consolidated balance sheet is…despite the lack of social skills. Even older people lack of social skills (if you have a mirror you may find an example).”
You clearly have not grasped that I do not lack social skills. I actually have rather good social skills, I adapt to situation I am in.
And unlike you, I have learned to act according to different cultural norms. That is how I do abroad, I adjust to their norms and laws. And then return home where MY norms are de facto way of the land.
You clearly have issues understanding that much of what you foreigners do is actually considered RUDE in Finland.
-”Whow, in case of Finns that is 5% of your population ”
Yes, idiots like that girl exist in the ranks of Finns too.
-”By the way…if you are so skilled, why did you only get a temporary contract in the UK? I got a permanent contract here and earn much more than in Finland excl. benefits…plus I have the fun to work in an international team”
Because I had no interest in anything more. I had possibility to renew the contract and/or switch to permanent but since I did not like the place, I came home.
xyz
March 29, 2010
Watch, mimic, learn. That’s the way you learned cultural norms of your parents.
-What if I am not good in acting?
You adapt, employer pays. That is how it goes.
Expecting natives to adapt to you is arrogant, you as immigrant have to adapt to them.
-But this is not equality? Why can 10 nationalities work in my team here and nobody has problems with it?
So what? Have you noticed that Finns are quite capable of speaking multiple languages?
-Why do so many have problems with English then?
I have answered your question. It does not matter how easily Finns are permitted to other countries or if their asses are considered gilded out there.
-I think they should stay at home then. But on the other hand…Finland is losing resources and tax income if people can’t get work at home…so it’s good for other countries
You clearly have not grasped that I do not lack social skills. I actually have rather good social skills, I adapt to situation I am in.
-Of course you lack social skills…just read what you write. Which foreigner want to deal with you. No wonder you didn’t like it abroad.
And unlike you, I have learned to act according to different cultural norms. That is how I do abroad, I adjust to their norms and laws. And then return home where MY norms are de facto way of the land.
-What have you learned? You were running home after a few month in the UK (if you have ever been there at all) because you couldn’t handle a different environment even so you speak the language.
You clearly have issues understanding that much of what you foreigners do is actually considered RUDE in Finland.
-Who cares if Finns go abroad and work in other countries without knowing the language. They are rude as well.
Yes, idiots like that girl exist in the ranks of Finns too.
-Don’t forget the drunks, depressed,…
Because I had no interest in anything more. I had possibility to renew the contract and/or switch to permanent but since I did not like the place, I came home.
-So you were not able to adapt to a different environment. Ever tried another country? I got a permanent contract right away…you not
Enrique
March 29, 2010
Tiwaz, maybe you should use a little of your free will and arrive at your own conclusions. Humans are not xerox machines that copy culture. They have free will and the ability to change.
Tiwaz
March 29, 2010
-”What if I am not good in acting?”
Learn. Do you expect others to appease your ass then?
What makes you entitled to such treatment? Are you Jesus or something?
-”But this is not equality? Why can 10 nationalities work in my team here and nobody has problems with it?”
Hmm. Could it be because your corporation has laid down the law and told each of you little whiners how to do stuff and you do it that way?
That is equality. Equality is not José getting preferential treatment by having his requirements lowered since he cannot meet them.
-”Why do so many have problems with English then?”
Have you seen ones going abroad to be ones with poor English?
And compare this to amount of “no speak”-foreigners in Finland. Who expect us Finns to appease their foreign ass in Finland by speaking our poor English to them because they are too lazy or stupid to learn Finnish.
-”I think they should stay at home then. But on the other hand…Finland is losing resources and tax income if people can’t get work at home…so it’s good for other countries”
And trying to get more immigrants would change what?
Do immigrants have magic “make jobs”-boxes with them? If they do, why they are so vastly overrepresented in unemployment?
-”Of course you lack social skills…just read what you write. Which foreigner want to deal with you. No wonder you didn’t like it abroad.”
I do. And guess what my posts tell me. They speak of person who is sick and tired of watching foreigners come to his beloved country and start whining and demanding special treatment.
If you are not handicapped, don’t ask for preferential treatment.
You are receiving what you deserve.
-”What have you learned? You were running home after a few month in the UK (if you have ever been there at all) because you couldn’t handle a different environment even so you speak the language.”
We speak of years here.
And what have you learned? Nothing. You just whine how Finland is unfair place because we expect you to speak Finnish.
Have you noticed that Irish expect you to speak English!
Have you tried living and working there if you do not speak any English?
-”Don’t forget the drunks, depressed,…”
So? Show me how multiculturalism would solve existing problems instead of adding more of them.
-”So you were not able to adapt to a different environment. Ever tried another country? I got a permanent contract right away…you not”
I was able to live there without problems, but it did not feel like home.
And I chose fixed term contract. I wanted to see how I like the place before committing long term.
Same thing in Finland. I only bought a house when I knew I was comfortable with area.
-”Tiwaz, maybe you should use a little of your free will and arrive at your own conclusions. Humans are not xerox machines that copy culture. They have free will and the ability to change.”
So how about you foreigners coming to Finland changing instead of demanding us Finns to change to appease your foreign asses?
You should come to your own conclusions when only whiners like xyz and other failures are ones who support you.
Linda
March 31, 2010
Tiwaz: Unemployment in the Immigrant community is rampant, because, Immigrants are not given access to opportunity structure, in this case, the presence of employers that are willing to hire foreigners are very few or nonexistent and by foreigners I mean Africans and people that come from underdeveloped nations no matter where they are educated. The problem is always blamed on language problems even though the person has good command in Finnish and a few other languages. But another rule applies, if you are from an English speaking country that is categorized as first world, or any of those countries who founded the EU, excluding the newly added members, the requirements are far less, the employer is even willing to provide you with Finnish lessons if you so desire. Almost all the multinational companies that operate in Finland have adopted English as their corporate language because they had to; therefore, if you apply to those companies Finnish should not be a requirement only your merit.
The second thing that is bothering you is their productivity; firstly, there has to be an employer that is willing and fair to tap their productive capacity, by ignoring people like you, that will complain and start sending out e-mails to irrelevant bodies because the person has made a minor mistake – the mistake is usually exaggerated exponentially. Because it is people like you that impede a person’s progress, by your unwillingness to help the person assimilate to the company’s culture, the work process and whatever information is needed to help the person get orientated. It usually takes 3 to 6 month’s to learn a new process, however, significantly less time is given to foreigners’ to get evaluated, and doomed unqualified. Simply, by freezing him/her out – nothing gets accomplished. A person needs many years of working experience to become a professional after leaving the university, getting a degree does not automatically make you a professional, you have to have practice. If a foreigner, educated in Finland or otherwise cannot find a place to work and practice, there is no way he/ she will or can be efficient in a couple of month. It is easy to get educated in Finland in whatever discipline, if you want and work hard for it. But the old wisdom -Teach me and I will remember, involve me and I will learn” is grossly forgotten. I could go on and on…
Regarding assimilation and culture: You isolate yourself by simply not giving the benefit of the doubt to the person that does not look or behave like you; you don’t have friends of color or neighbors’. Meaning, you know far less about them, than they know about you. We are living in a globally integrated world and the world is not white and developed, you trade with them, you sell your technology to them, but yet you assume that you are superior to them. You go to their countries to implement a project, but if they come here to do the same, they are not welcome. Finland can’t go it alone, it is simply not feasible in the global environment we live in. So, if you demand that they assimilate to your norm, I have got news for you, most of the people in the world are not white or from the developed world. It is about time that you understand that you are the one that is isolated from a more global norm, therefore- UNQUALIFIED.
Tiwaz
March 31, 2010
-”Unemployment in the Immigrant community is rampant, because, Immigrants are not given access to opportunity structure, in this case, the presence of employers that are willing to hire foreigners are very few or nonexistent and by foreigners I mean Africans and people that come from underdeveloped nations no matter where they are educated. T”
Has it ever occurred to you that Finland, 1st world nation and one of the leading nations in technology, has HIGHER requirements for education than underdeveloped nations?
Those Africans you speak of, they do not have any education as far as Finnish community is concerned. Here standard starts at 9 years of comprehensive school topped with at least 3 years of vocational education on field you want to work in. And huge number of us go even beyond.
Whole lot of immigrants, who cannot speak Finnish (which IS ESSENTIAL IN FINLAND) have no means of competing.
Are you suggesting that foreigners should receive preferential treatment even when they cannot fulfill requirements of the job?
-”Almost all the multinational companies that operate in Finland have adopted English as their corporate language because they had to; therefore, if you apply to those companies Finnish should not be a requirement only your merit.”
Has it occurred to you that for each open job in those few companies there will be dozens or hundreds of applicants? Your odds of getting such job are extremely slim. Even less if you come from undeveloped world where knowing how to read and write fluently is an achievement.
Huge amount of jobs are in small to mid sector of jobs, and there FINNISH is the office language
-”It usually takes 3 to 6 month’s to learn a new process, however, significantly less time is given to foreigners’ to get evaluated, and doomed unqualified. Simply, by freezing him/her out – nothing gets accomplished. A person needs many years of working experience to become a professional after leaving the university, getting a degree does not automatically make you a professional, you have to have practice.”
Same is true for Finns. So why you whine that immigrants are treated worse? Finns suffer same handicaps when coming out of school.
Biggest difference is that Finns know how to act in Finnish community. Something many immigrants fail to learn because they believe that “my way is just fine”
-”You isolate yourself by simply not giving the benefit of the doubt to the person that does not look or behave like you; you don’t have friends of color or neighbors’. Meaning, you know far less about them, than they know about you. We are living in a globally integrated world and the world is not white and developed, you trade with them, you sell your technology to them, but yet you assume that you are superior to them.”
No, IMMIGRANTS isolate themselves by refusing to fit into crowd.
Tone of their skin is irrelevant as long as they show that their goal is to fit in.
You can’t live in Finland as if you were still in Somalia. It is impossible. Somalian habits have to die out where they are incompatible with Finnish society. Same for every other culture.
Less different your culture is from Finnish, less you have to adapt. This makes Germans, Swedes etc easily integrated. And because of this they have little problems in this society.
But further your native culture is from Finnish, more it is going to hurt you if you do not let go of your ways and accept that in Finland things work differently.
As for selling stuff abroad. It still does not mean we have to adopt the habits of our customers. We can sell to Saudi Arabia without having need to become religious nutjobs.
-”You go to their countries to implement a project, but if they come here to do the same, they are not welcome.”
They are welcome as long as they play by our rules. You cannot come to Finland and assume that Finns will adjust to you. You have to adjust to Finns.
YOU are being arrogant ass here, not me. I am saying that in Rome, you do as Romans do. That means, in Somalia, it is the Somalian way. In Russia, it is the Russian way.
In Finland, everyone plays by Finnish rules.
-”So, if you demand that they assimilate to your norm, I have got news for you, most of the people in the world are not white or from the developed world. It is about time that you understand that you are the one that is isolated from a more global norm, therefore- UNQUALIFIED.”
I have news for you! Finland is over 90% Finnish. So fuck off rest of the world! Over here, our rules. Abroad, your rules.
But this blog is about Finland.
YOU are unqualified.
Global norm is irrelevant in Finland. Here only Finnish norm is relevant.
Time for you arrogant immigrant assholes to get that into your heads.
Enrique
March 31, 2010
–Has it ever occurred to you that Finland, 1st world nation and one of the leading nations in technology, has HIGHER requirements for education than underdeveloped nations?
Has it ever occurred to you that racism is a big social problem in Finland? There are many Finns who are not in this group. They are normal people like any other from a developed country. They are fun to be with and they rock. They are the reason why Finland is not a KKK camp.
Tiwaz
March 31, 2010
-”Has it ever occurred to you that racism is a big social problem in Finland?”
Has it occurred to you that as we have proven here, 90% of “Finnish racism” is delusion located between two ears of immigrants.
You guys cannot accept that Finns have their own unique society which works on it’s own unique ways.
Because you cannot accept it, you refuse to adjust it and when your own arrogance bites you in the ass instead of admitting your stupidity you whine that Finns are racists!
If immigrant is not hired, reason NEVER is in immigrant not being capable of competing fairly. It is Finnish racism!
Because for you fruits of failed societies it is easier to blame others for your own shortcomings.
xyz
March 31, 2010
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Survey+More+than+half+want+tighter+immigration+controls/1135255790386
“The survey did not offer specific alternatives as to which groups might not be desirable, but in a space left for the respondent’s own comments, groups that were mentioned included those who want a better standard of living, but do not want to work, criminals, Muslims, and Somalis.”
-If an employer thinks the same way, I am quite sure that somebody who belongs to one of those groups is not able to work because he/she is considered to be lazy just because of his/her background. As a result they don’t get jobs. A friend of mine who is from Iraq always got rejections from companies in Finland until his former company opened a branch in Helsinki and hired him. Now he is sent to those Finnish companies to teach them their products and services. He never took any Social Welfare Benefits but worked in a Pizza Shop instead, even so he is an Engineer with 4 years international work experience.
Linda
March 31, 2010
The notion that immigrants don’t want to assimilate in Finland is so not true. There might be some that are not willing or unable to assimilate, having said that, even these group of immigrants do not expect to change the finnish culture or society in a shape or form
You are indeed mistaken when saying, that the germans and others from developed countries do not complain. They might not complain to a Finn, but they do complain to none Finns. This is a huge misconception.
The main problem is that qualified people from underdeveloped countries don’t get employed because of bigotry. If they do get a job, it is contractual, six month and they might work in the same company renewing their contract for 2-3 years. They are also the first ones to be redundant if there is any sign of economic downturn. Had it been a Finn, do you think he would be working contractually indefinately?
Do me a favor, please explain the finnish culture? I have worked in this country for 16 years, I have gotten along with my collegues and have had no major problems. Ofcourse, one has to get over the initial shoke of a)your collegues not greeting you, if they are having a bad hair day b) there are them rude sounding and blunt email messages, that lack common courtesy but I reply politely etc…
I think you assume that Africans will jump on the table in the middle of a meeting and start dancing, and Arabs will start praying and force everybody to stop the meeting and demand everyone to chant in Arabic after them?
You should try meeting proffesionals immigrants, you might start seeing things differently.
Also, please try not curse a lot, it shows a lack of vocabulary.
Enrique
March 31, 2010
Hi Linda, all these notions put out by Tiwaz and company are so full of bolony that it is difficult to figure out if this is what he seriously thinks (poor guy) or just living in a fairy-tale world of good versus evil. People who are xenophobic like to generalize about how bad others are so they can justify their bigotry. It is as simple as that. Their arguments are nothing more than hot air mixed, wrath and ignorance. But they can learn one day to see the foolishness of their ideas. I would not worry about Tiwaz or any others like him.
Linda
April 1, 2010
You are correct Enrique, what saddens me in this country is that foriengners are treated unfairly and their collegues don’t defend them. They will really symphatise with their collegues plight, but when it comes to defending them everyone is quiet. Inshort, they lack integrity.
A friend of mine in Canada heard a conversation between her collegues, a person asked an African woman where she is from, and she told him she is from Ethiopia, and he response was “but you are beutiful, you don’t look like an Ethiopian”. Soon after, my friend reported it to the department head, and the individual got sacked. I believe that there should also be rules in this country, regarding equally comparable behaviors, so that decent people that are trying to make a living and provide for their families don’t get bullied by thier co-workers.
xyz
April 2, 2010
In Helsinki Times I read a similar story that immigrants should organize themselves for better treatment in Finland:
http://www.helsinkitimes.fi/htimes/viewpoint/10474-immigrants-need-to-organise-for-better-treatment.html
jihu
April 2, 2010
What I find interesting in these conversations is that a finn is so proud of HIS own country. The question is – what has he done to call it HIS country? Born in it?
“We are like this and this, you are like this and that”
What is this “we” you are so proud of? You have the sense of belonging to a society of finns but actually you have done nothing to “deserve” it.
On top of having this false believe that you are a part of something grand which you participated to create, you generalisize to every other person these rules which you have in your head. “You are from this country, you don´t speak finnish – you must be this and that” Well – I know you have something smart to say about this as well, since after all you have nothing against foreigners
I have learned to deal with people as individuals, not as parts of some nation. Cause really in the end – what have they done for being called a finn, a swede, a german…….
If you think about it, it´s just redicilous that somebody categorizes people like this, especially in times like this when every second person wants to spend time abroad living in another culture, learning a new environment/enjoying not being a native for once.
Just try to see multinationality as a richness, take people as individuals, see that all of us have a story behind us – which usually takes longer than a short written message to understand.
Tiwaz
April 2, 2010
-”If an employer thinks the same way, I am quite sure that somebody who belongs to one of those groups is not able to work because he/she is considered to be lazy just because of his/her background. As a result they don’t get jobs.”
Has it occurred to you that this is direct result of immigrant failures? Employers only need to burn their fingers once and they are VERY careful in the future.
-”The notion that immigrants don’t want to assimilate in Finland is so not true. There might be some that are not willing or unable to assimilate, having said that, even these group of immigrants do not expect to change the finnish culture or society in a shape or form”
If you refuse to adjust to norms and requirements of Finnish society but demand to be treated as if you were perfectly adjusted you DO demand change of Finnish society.
Because you cannot get both, keep your native cultural tradition and be treated like adjusted person if Finnish culture is not changed towards your native one.
-”You are indeed mistaken when saying, that the germans and others from developed countries do not complain. They might not complain to a Finn, but they do complain to none Finns. This is a huge misconception.”
Everyone whines. But western people tend to whine about different things. They whine that there is no vegemite or marmite or some other crap they got used to in their native lands. Their cultural gap is much smaller. Which is why Germans, Swedes and even Russians (who are by the way largest foreigner group in Finland) are not overrepresented in rape statistics.
-”The main problem is that qualified people from underdeveloped countries don’t get employed because of bigotry.”
Proof? Where is study that shows that undeveloped (which equals uneducated) are treated racisticaly? You have no proof because it is not true. They are not hired because Finland has no use for uneducated goat herders!
Why is it so difficult for you guys to grasp that Finland does NOT need much people who can only do simplest jobs in exitence?
Undeveloped = uneducated by Finnish standards.
-”If they do get a job, it is contractual, six month and they might work in the same company renewing their contract for 2-3 years. They are also the first ones to be redundant if there is any sign of economic downturn. Had it been a Finn, do you think he would be working contractually indefinately?”
And here you show your own stupidity. Clearly you cannot read Finnish because you are stupidly writing that.
IF you had bothered to learn Finnish you would see that
EXACTLY SAME IS TRUE FOR FINNS FOR FUCKS SAKE!
It is called “pätkätyöt”.
20% of work contracts in Finland are contractual. Do you think that immigrants form anywhere near 20% of workers?
This shows that you, just like Enrique and rest, know nothing of what you are speaking but just spew nonsense to try to defend immigrant failure to make themselves useful to Finnish society.
-”Do me a favor, please explain the finnish culture? I have worked in this country for 16 years, I have gotten along with my collegues and have had no major problems. Ofcourse, one has to get over the initial shoke of a)your collegues not greeting you, if they are having a bad hair day b) there are them rude sounding and blunt email messages, that lack common courtesy but I reply politely etc…”
And again you show your stupidity. Guess what, Finns do not necessarily greet each other. I greet, and get greeted, in the morning when few people are at work. However, when day is at full swing we stop greeting because we are WORKING.
It is not rude, rude is to distubr people who are busy.
As for blunt emails. Do you want a fucking singing telegram? We relay facts in the email. It is not how things are done, straight to business and get it over with.
YOU on other hand ARE RUDE, because your flowery responses are annoying to read. When you have dozens of emails to read, you do not want flowery crap in it but straight to issue without beating around the bush.
What is wrong with you foreigners? Why can’t you be polite and just relay the information and nothing else?
-”I think you assume that Africans will jump on the table in the middle of a meeting and start dancing, and Arabs will start praying and force everybody to stop the meeting and demand everyone to chant in Arabic after them?”
No, they just expect that Finns will think accoding to African cultural norms or Arabic cultural norms when meeting.
Or, like in your case, you expect your professional emails to be some kind of flowery greetings with beating around bush.
Problem in that is not in Finns, but you and other immigrants who do not figure out that Finns want to get straight to issue at hand without beating around the bush.
-”You are correct Enrique, what saddens me in this country is that foriengners are treated unfairly and their collegues don’t defend them. They will really symphatise with their collegues plight, but when it comes to defending them everyone is quiet. Inshort, they lack integrity. ”
Proof?
-”A friend of mine in Canada heard a conversation between her collegues, a person asked an African woman where she is from, and she told him she is from Ethiopia, and he response was “but you are beutiful, you don’t look like an Ethiopian”. Soon after, my friend reported it to the department head, and the individual got sacked.”
Thin skinned much? This kind of political correct shit is what is dooming Canada.
“You are beautiful, you don’t look like an Ethiopian.”
Hoorrrible insult. She was complimented and someone was sacked.
What if it had been opposite way?
What if SHE had said to her colleague “You are beautiful, you don’t look like a Canadian”
Let me guess. NOTHING!
There we have world you want. One where it is right and proper to insult some people (natives) but not others.
-”I believe that there should also be rules in this country, regarding equally comparable behaviors, so that decent people that are trying to make a living and provide for their families don’t get bullied by thier co-workers.”
There are rules. There is one set of rules. Those rules are in combination…
Finnish law and Finnish culture.
Those are perfectly equal rules which form one set of proper behavior which applies to everyone. It is the most equal system in existence as it does not include double standards.
No wait… You do not give a fuck about equality do you? You WANT double standards and inequality, you want preferential treatment of foreigners don’t you?
You are the problem, not Finns.
Enrique
April 2, 2010
–Just try to see multinationality as a richness, take people as individuals, see that all of us have a story behind us – which usually takes longer than a short written message to understand.
Hi Jihu, very wise words indeed. It does seem strange that in this day of age we continue to see people in such an antiquated matter. Skin color and ethnicity matter first then the person’s character. You have the right approach and people must look up to you for it.
jihu
April 2, 2010
Oh I gues you did not have time to read my reply yet, still talking about the finns and the foreigners.
jihu
April 2, 2010
Just to be cleas – for Tiwaz.
Tiwaz
April 2, 2010
-”What I find interesting in these conversations is that a finn is so proud of HIS own country. The question is – what has he done to call it HIS country? Born in it?
“We are like this and this, you are like this and that””
What have you foreigners done to be so proud of your heritage that you refuse to adjust to Finnish society?
Born in it?
-”What is this “we” you are so proud of? You have the sense of belonging to a society of finns but actually you have done nothing to “deserve” it.”
And you base this on what?
Guess what I do, pay taxes. Have paid whole lot of them over the years. From my salary, from my other income, from my inheritance. Me and my kind keep this nation standing so that people who are of no use to this society can go to KELA and get their social security money.
-”On top of having this false believe that you are a part of something grand which you participated to create, you generalisize to every other person these rules which you have in your head. “You are from this country, you don´t speak finnish – you must be this and that” Well – I know you have something smart to say about this as well, since after all you have nothing against foreigners ”
I am part of something grand. Finnish people and Finnish society. Me and my parents and grandparents have worked to build this nation. Grandparents to make good nation for my parents, my parents to make good nation for me and I to make good nation for my children.
-”I have learned to deal with people as individuals, not as parts of some nation. Cause really in the end – what have they done for being called a finn, a swede, a german…….
If you think about it, it´s just redicilous that somebody categorizes people like this, especially in times like this when every second person wants to spend time abroad living in another culture, learning a new environment/enjoying not being a native for once.”
So how you explain that scientists can accurately define certain behavior tendencies to originate from certain cultures? Your individuality is only tip of what makes you. Beneath your thin individuality is firm foundation of culture which you share with your fellow countrymen.
http://www.articlesbase.com/culture-articles/pyramid-model-of-cultural-traits-1917526.html
You fit in because of shared values, norms and traditions. If you do not share them, you do not fit in.
-”Just try to see multinationality as a richness, take people as individuals, see that all of us have a story behind us – which usually takes longer than a short written message to understand.”
How about you explain to us how we take say 40 000 people as individuals? It is impossible. On national scale you have to work with general traits of cultures and societies.
Individual Somali is most likely NOT rapist despite his cultural traits and traditions. As group though, they are disproportionately rapist in western society.
Because of this, multinationalism or multiculturalism is a failure. When obsessing of individual you forget that individuals are in the end only building blocks of larger group. It is this group which is looked upon when making national level decisions not some individual who might be so out of touch with average behavior of the group they are part of that they in no way represent the actions of this group.
jihu
April 2, 2010
Just to be clear – for Tiwaz.
xyz
April 2, 2010
jihu: I agree with you. Most likely those people who are think they are so intelligent because they belong to a specific group are actually weak and don’t have the experience and skills to work in an international environment. Just look at Tiwaz. He acts like a small child who is scared to go to the Kindergarten alone because it is something new.
jihu
April 2, 2010
BEFORE I EVEN READ FURTHER I HAVE TO COMMENT. YOU ASSUME I AM A FOREIGNER ALREADY IN THE FIRST COMMENT
NO MUTTA, VÄÄRIN MENI 
jihu
April 2, 2010
Yeah, actually I have other stuff to do today, dont have time to post here the whole day. Just wanted to say that there are US FINNS who are less proud about being a part of this society – mostly because of people like you.
Enrique
April 2, 2010
–What have you foreigners done to be so proud of your heritage that you refuse to adjust to Finnish society? Born in it?
In first place let me correct you. Most of the people who live in Finland belong to this society and have the same rights as you. OK, since I wasn’t born in Finland I cannot be president. Big deal! You play the same broken record over and over again. You sound like the same bigots in the United States that claim people are so bad, stupid and lazy. The truth is that many immigrants can beat you in intelligence, efficiency and work. Stop spreading around stereotypes and bigot statements about other groups because they aren’t true.
Kate
April 10, 2010
Is racism in Finland really so widely spread?I`m russian,and I`m going to study in Finland,but after all these comments I`m not so sure. Personally I didn`t notice any racism at all,I live near the border with Finland and very often go there, but I never had such problems
alien
April 11, 2010
Is racism in Finland really so widely spread?
It depends. The more you interact with the Finnish authorities, the more you might observe discriminative measures from them. If you are just to study for a while and demand nothing, you observe none or little discrimination. If you live there for 10 years and demand prosperity equal to the level of your contribution to the society, you probably would not get that and experience discrimination by certain degrees. A bit of luck is very important. If the authority dont like you or feel threatened by your inteligence, then your destiny is decided about behind the closed doors, and the laws and Acts would not help you at all.
A rule of Tumb ;
1- A foreigner in Finland has no legal right. You have no right.
2- They do a favor to you, if they find you are assimilated into their system.
3- Your individual identity has no meaning here.
4- A foreigner is always guilty unless proven otherwise.
5- Laws and Acts and the rights meant only for Finns. You worth nothing for them.
If you can take all this, and you are good in kissing stinky asses of low-level people, you will be successful in Finland. Welcome.
If you feel free and want to live free, you will have a hard time. In some cases, the immigrants have had to decide whether they want to be human and live free, or to cooperate for Finnish Inteligence service and spy among their fellow country-men in order to get citizenship for example. Any thing shorter than being a snitch, they could and would destroy your life. So it is up to you.
PS:Off course they are afraid of Russia and you might experience lesser pressure. The nation who demands immigrants to kiss their asses, have been once made to kiss and lick others asses. So it is a completely complexed system. It might remind you of the ex-Soviet Union.
ваше здоровье!
Tiwaz
April 13, 2010
-”Is racism in Finland really so widely spread?I`m russian,and I`m going to study in Finland,but after all these comments I`m not so sure. Personally I didn`t notice any racism at all,I live near the border with Finland and very often go there, but I never had such problems”
Is racism really so widely spread in Russia?
Your nation is more racist than Finland overall.
If you are smart person who is prepared to accept few things there is very little racism in Finland:
1) Finland is not Russia.
2) Things are not done in Finland like they are done in Russia
3) YOU have to adjust to how things are done in Finland and not expect Finland to adjust to you
If you accept that in Finland you have to adjust and learn to live according to Finnish norms, you will do well. You will even prosper.
If you are arrogant ass like certain immigrants like Alien and xyz who think they are entitled to “special” treatment. Then you will find lots of racism in Finland because in your arrogance you will attribute your own failings to Finnish racism.
For objective observer, you would not be target of racism though.
xyz
April 13, 2010
Tiwaz: You are arrogant too. If you want me to respect you then you also have to respect me.
alien
April 13, 2010
Kate:
You see for yourself. You can figure out how Finland is based on Tiwaz comments. I have no better or further explanation.
Cheers
xyz
April 13, 2010
Kate:
http://www.finnresearch.fi/5_dervin_2009.pdf
http://ktl.jyu.fi/ktl/english/news/taajamo
Kate
April 13, 2010
Tiwaz:
Your nation is more racist than Finland overall.
I don`t argue,living and finding a good job in Russia is very difficult for people from Asia.
Anyhow,It`s too late to change my plans for education in Finland,so I hope, that if I try to understand norms of living in Finland,it`ll be OK.
But there really are people ,who claim Finns in all their problems. For example, one my friend moved to Finland without knowing the language and having any education. Now she`s very angry, because of course she can`t find a job, but she`s still sure, that it`s because of her russian nationality. So, maybe only such people make up stories about racism?
Thanks for advice!
xyz
April 13, 2010
Guess what, Tiwaz has 1715 post on Finland Forum repeating the same sentence “If you can’t speak Finnish…”. Just imagine how much time it takes to post 1715 times
Enrique
April 13, 2010
–Guess what, Tiwaz has 1715 post on Finland Forum repeating the same sentence “If you can’t speak Finnish…”. Just imagine how much time it takes to post 1715 times.
I guess that is what they mean by having a one-track mind.
Tiwaz
April 14, 2010
xyz: I’m not the guy who came to native land of someone else, found out he did not fit in and then started throwing hissy fit like a child that this nation did not appease your demands. Topping it off with whining of racism for your own failures.
-”But there really are people ,who claim Finns in all their problems. For example, one my friend moved to Finland without knowing the language and having any education. Now she`s very angry, because of course she can`t find a job, but she`s still sure, that it`s because of her russian nationality. So, maybe only such people make up stories about racism?”
People like alien, xyz and Enrique are like that. They see Finns as their source of misery or source of misery for foreigners. They adamantly refuse to accept that immigrant is responsible for succeeding in country they move into.
As for you, I’m sure you will do well.
Things will be very different and you will feel lost a whole lot of times.
There will be some racism, that is given in any nation. I’m afraid you will hear word “ryssä”, which is derogatory term used of Russians, more than once.
But overall, if you show that you want to fit in, Finns will accept you. You might even enjoy your life after a while if your personality fits well to Finnish society.
Some foreigners tend to click well with Finnish cultural tradition of non-interference. If you want peace and privacy, Finns give it to you. If you don’t want, odds are you still often get it.
In the end, best piece of advice I can give you is that you make your stay in Finland.
You can rage and whine how things are not like at home, but it will change nothing. You spare yourself much misery by just accepting that things are the way they are.
Then, once you get settled you can consider if you actually like the way things are or not. And decide if you like to stay or leave at first opportunity.
Oh, and another piece of advice. NEVER assume ANYTHING. Moment you assume you know how things are done (usually you assume they go like at home) you are bound to hit trouble.
-”I guess that is what they mean by having a one-track mind.”
Pot, meet kettle. “Multiculturalism is good, this is my belief”-Enrique, repeating same religious mantra since year xxxx.
(proven false with facts repeatedly but still playing like broken record)
xyz
April 14, 2010
People like alien, xyz and Enrique are like that.
-And many more 1715 postings…
Kate: Go to a country which has more immigrants. You will enjoy it much more and there is much more to do.
I would just go there if you have an offer for a permanent contract. Better spend some money for education and go to the Netherlands, UK or Ireland. They have international companies there and your chances to get a job are much higher because they hire people from different countries as they operate on a European/Global level.
xyz
April 14, 2010
There is a new internet site which gives facts about Immigration in Finland:
http://www.puhettamaahanmuutosta.fi/
alien
April 15, 2010
Well, for those who want to move to Finland:
Go there if you have to. If you are going to be prosecuted, jailed, tortured, or executed. but once you have a normal life, your expectation also grows to normal level. If you cannot get a normal life where your dignities are not respected and your hard work not appreciated, then stop whining and leave that country. So if you cannot get what you deserve, do something about it. Certain things should be acheived, no one gives those for free to us.
Dont interprate every thing into racism. The assholes like Tiwaz can be found any where. Do not give a shit about them. I personally dont even see them. They are not in my level. What seems to be nasty is that Finland as a system has the same spirit that Tiwaz is representing. This is the real face of Finland.
BUT, if you are a man or woman of hard work, then go an extra mile and find happiness some where else. I can assure you or any one for this matter, that the world is big enough to find different people any where else. I have seen most of Europe and lived there for some time. Finland is a unique case. The laws in Finland is way too discriminative and tries to restrict immigrants in order to control them. My experience says that they will not change from inside, but external pressure makes them to change.
So for those who do not enjoy the country, my advice is: “Leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeave”!
xyz
April 27, 2010
YLE: Still Little Multi-Culturalism in Finnish Children’s Books
http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2010/04/still_little_multi-culturalism_in_finnish_childrens_books_1634852.html?origin=rss
Enrique
April 27, 2010
–YLE: Still Little Multi-Culturalism in Finnish Children’s Books.
I would say very little of it in primary, middle and high school as well. Thanks for sending the link, xyz.
xyz
April 27, 2010
YLE: For Some, Name is an Obstacle to Hiring
http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2010/04/for_some_name_is_an_obstacle_to_hiring_1637723.html?origin=rss
Enrique
April 27, 2010
xyz, the name is an obstacle for hiring a person, at least it does not put him at an advantage in many cases. It depends on the job as well. If you are an English teacher with an anglo name, I am certain it would raise expectations. I have been a journalist for 25 years and my name has raised some questions but has not been an overbearing obstacle, say when I worked for the Financial Times. However, the name does raise some expectations in viewers/readers. It depends on the country. In Finland, it would raise more questions than in Canada.
I have a suggestion: why not create neutral names where a person’s ethnicity cannot be traced? Something like Esperanto but used only for names.
Impose Fairness
May 1, 2010
You will talk to these Finns for centuries and they will not listen to you. Only way to make them shut their shitty mouth is their economic boycott that will result in a famine in Finland. They bitch about foreigners but their well being is based on accumulating wealth from around the world. Few suggestions.
======================================================
Don’t contribute to Linux. They use your brain.
Don’t buy Nokia phone, when you have so many good choices.
Don’t use products that use paper.
Don’t travel on Finair.
Don’t export to Finland, a small market for your product.Why waste your resources on small market?
Dont use kone elevators.
Dont marry finish women/man otherwise you will have autistic depressed genes in your off springs.
======================================================
There are many other B2B and B2C finish products.All of them can be easily boycotted because there are many other small countries whose “wealth” depend on international markets and they offer similar products like shitty finns. This is the only way to fuck these fuckers.
Promise here you will never buy any Nokia phone.
Paulina
May 2, 2010
Speaking NICELY…
Finns do built the wall between themselves and foreigners.
Even though I graduated from two schools and I also suffer from all you said.
Countless times the job is given to Finnish person who just graduated or even not, than person from other country who has got school and experience.
I have been told I am ” overeducated” or I am “not educated at all in Finland” for restaurant/bar/catering/ &other hospitality- even cleaning jobs ..
I got a little bit of job working trough job agencies, but through them there is no chance for residency cause they don’t give steady job contracts. So we all foreigners without contracts we must pay 35% of NOT returnable taxes … pay for apartments, food, private only doctors, and we have to buy every time the full tickets for city transport since we are not residents and can’t have metrocard.
SO HOW can we pay for finnish classes and double traveling everyday to school or work … when from our paychecks vanishes FOREVER 35% of the money we made, also few additional percents for vacation pay and food at work …
We have to pay that effin 35% of taxes even if we work 1 day in the month!
And the agencies or restaurants give us shitty 0h- 140 h a month contracts..
Finns treat foreigners really bad!
Paulina
May 3, 2010
Someone should be ASHAMED saying the foreigners DO NOT pay taxes when a lot of them they pay 35% of NOT RETURNABLE tax
where is really really hard to survive …
HOW can a finnish society expect foreigner to learn fnnish if the classes are expensive and if they are slightly cheaper they are located in the middle of nowhere…where the travel costs for 5-6 weeks are 150 € , not to mention expensive books? ‘
People don’t have anything to put into their mouth for dinner!!!
classes..
Hanna
May 3, 2010
I agree with M.Dubois.
“”"”M. Dubois Says:
June 17, 2009 at 9:39 pm
Hello everyone, very interesting comments! I am French Canadian (Swedish and French heritage) living in Helsinki (married to a Finnish woman), and I’d like to share my thoughts on being a foreigner in Finland.
In some ways, I enjoy living in Finland. I have many Finnish friends, most of whom have been warm and welcoming to me. And I enjoy the clean and relatively safe streets, the solid public transportation system, and the strong emphasis on public services.
However, I do agree with many of the comments here from foreigners: Finns tend to be a bit more xenophobic and racist than most Western nation/states — and a surprising number of Finns don’t know it, don’t believe it, or don’t care.
The crux of the problem seems to be that Finns have a hard time listening to criticism and communicating in general. Just read the comments above. When you confront a Finn about xenophobia, he or she will likely say something to the effect of “If you don’t like Finland, then leave” or “the problem is not with us Finns, it is with you foreigners” or “you foreigners just want our welfare money.” Absolutely amazing. These responses remind me of attitudes prevalent in Alabama (USA) in the 1970s, where I worked as a researcher for a year. Fortunately the people in the southern states of the USA seem to have done a better job of confronting these issues.
I have personally witnessed racism against black folks on the streets of Helsinki — particularly in the suburbs, but also in the center. Even I have been accosted on a few occasions for presumably speaking English too loud — and I am a white man! I can only imagine how hard it is for black folks. What is particularly frustrating is that we foreigners are expected to keep quiet on these issues simply because a high proportion of Finns lack basic debate and communication skills.
Finns, you need to learn to deal with criticism and how to deal with folks from abroad. Trust me on this: an anti-outsider reputation will haunt you morally, economically, socially, culturally, etc. If all you can say in response to criticism is “leave Finland,” then you have abandoned your own capacity for reason — and ultimately abandoned your own country. In any case, many immigrants in Finland cannot leave or are positions where leaving would be very difficult. I am more fortunate: I am a citizen of a country more affluent than Finland and I can leave — and I most certainly will leave. So I wish the best to all Finns and foreigners in Finland. It’s a global world now, and we have so many issues we need to work om together. Cheers! “”"
Enrique
May 3, 2010
Hi Hanna, welcome to Migrant Tales and thank you for sharing your opinions. I have been a journalist and lived in Finland for quite some time. One of the matters that I have noticed is that some Finns don’t like criticism ESPECIALLY if it comes from a foreigner. During the cold war period, the foreign ministry would blacklist journalists that did not follow the official foreign policy line of friendly relations with the USSR. Sad but true. However, there are many great things in Finland that makes it a nice country to live in. I have always said, take away the racism and distrust of newcomers and Finland would be a near-perfect place to live in. This is, of course, a very subjective opinion.
I would be interested to ask you how you see Finnish racism and how it works. Racism must manifest itself differently from Alabama.
Khan
May 27, 2010
I have lived in Finland for less than a week. When I landed at the airport and walking to the exit in a long queue (I was the only non-White in the queue), and few immigration officers pointed me and called me into a private room to ask some questions, however, they quickly let me go.
When I got out of the airport and got into the bus, nobody would sit next to me even the bus was full.
University was relatively better place, I did not have any bad experience there. But on the streets, in the markets, on the train, people would stare at me as if I am an alien.
I have traveled to many countries, but Finland is quite unique. May be they need to learn that there is a world outside Finland as well. Sorry for being harsh, but that’s what I felt.
Enrique
May 27, 2010
–I have lived in Finland for less than a week.
Hi Khan, and welcome to Migrant Tales and sharing your experiences in Finland with us. Yes, Finland is unique in many ways.
alien
May 27, 2010
…..
But on the streets, in the markets, on the train, people would stare at me as if I am an alien.
…..
First of ALL:
You are an alien!
Second:
But the buses are coming on time. Is relatively clean, nobody needs to be hungry, nobody does not have to be without shelter which is great, though Finns tend to piss some time on the street that could not be very unusual!
Third:
WELCOME TO SHUTTER ISLAND !
Adrian
June 15, 2010
I am a romanian living in Italy; latley I wos thinking to immigrate again, in Finland, because italians become racist over the past few years, – till now – when i red this comments; it will be better to stay here , at least I have a job !
I am a lorry driver and thought that with a little comand of finnish it will be easy to find employment , but I am wrong , am I ?
Enrique
June 15, 2010
Hi Adrian, welcome to Migrant Tales. The best advice I can give you is get a job contract before coming to Finland. As you can tell, unemployment is rising, especially among the immigrant population.
Tiwaz
June 29, 2010
As we have seen on other thread, Paulina is essentially talking out of her ass and has no grasp of what she is even talking about.
This is prime example of why you immigrants should take a LONG hard look at yourselves and kick yourself in the ass.
How many of you can put hand on your heart and say you understand how Finnish society works, how worklife in Finnish society works?
How many of you can honestly say you have put all the time and effort required to understand society to understanding the society you moved into?
Few if any. Most just assume things are “just like at home” and then whine how Finns are unfair when we do not act like YOU expect.
90% of problems foreigners face start and end between ears of mentioned foreigner.
Not bothering to figure out how things work out, assuming things based on how things are done at your native land. Excessively thin skin “oh my god! they stare at me! oh the racism! oh the horror!”
Fuck off, if we see unusual looking Goth we stare at those too. It is called curiosity, though apparently for some people writing here curiosity equals racism.
Let’s take prime example here:
“I have personally witnessed racism against black folks on the streets of Helsinki — particularly in the suburbs, but also in the center. Even I have been accosted on a few occasions for presumably speaking English too loud — and I am a white man! I can only imagine how hard it is for black folks. What is particularly frustrating is that we foreigners are expected to keep quiet on these issues simply because a high proportion of Finns lack basic debate and communication skills.”
Mr.Dubois apparently has been told to be more quiet. Which is understandable, apparently it has eluded his rather limited senses that Finns do not appriciate loud and obnoxious behavior.
IF he had bothered to use his senses, he would have noticed the disgust apparent on faces of Finns when they are near loud and obnoxious drunkards.
And proceeded to act like one. Then, when he is corrected instead of learning from experience he starts whining how it is racism!
Same thing about his pathetic comments about black men.
Are those black men also loud and disturb peace of others?
It is sad to see how multiculturalist fools lap up any “I have seen black people treated in racist way” without ANY critical thought put forth on the source.
Dubois here does not in ANY way tell us HOW those black people were mistreated. And based on his whining on being told to be more quiet, I would presume that for Dubois Finns failing to fall on their knees to worship the mentioned black men is racism.
In this blog, forums etc I see so much whining for racism, but few if any manage to actually point out REAL racism to be present. Mostly it is just foreigners failing to learn the way of life in Finland and then calling racism to cover up their own failures.
xyz
June 29, 2010
In this blog, forums etc I see so much whining for racism
-Maybe there is a reason for this otherwise nobody would whine?!?
How many of you can put hand on your heart and say you understand how Finnish society works, how worklife in Finnish society works?
-Well go ahead and tell a bit about Finnish Society and Finnish work life. What does it make so much different than in other countries? Maybe educating us about your wisdom would make more sense than complaining about whining foreigners struggling to find a shit job with their Master Degrees. Sorry, but if somebody has 2 degrees from Finland and you tell this person that he does not know how Finnish society and work life works then I would suppose that there is something wrong with the education you are offering here in Finland.
Tiwaz
June 30, 2010
-”Well go ahead and tell a bit about Finnish Society and Finnish work life. What does it make so much different than in other countries?”
Has it occurred that… It being Finnish? It being rooted in Finnish culture?
Learn Finnish culture, how to interact in it properly and Finnish worklife opens up.
-”Maybe educating us about your wisdom would make more sense than complaining about whining foreigners struggling to find a shit job with their Master Degrees. ”
Maybe they should have sought Master’s degree in some field where there already aren’t hundreds of unemployed Finnish graduates competing for same spots. Or ones where successfully performing your tasks requires Finnish.
And what employer in their right mind hires someone who is grossly overeducated for the job they are about to take? Odds of those workers being there for long time is neglible, meaning employer has to start whole process of hiring someone all over again.
For jobs which require little to no skill/education there are the temps agencies and students, who tend to be cheaper.
-”Sorry, but if somebody has 2 degrees from Finland and you tell this person that he does not know how Finnish society and work life works then I would suppose that there is something wrong with the education you are offering here in Finland.”
Two humanist degrees and no-speak makes you…
Shit applicant for most jobs you could apply for.
You do not see people with 2 good degrees from hard sciences or engineering field unemployed in Finland.
It is the idiots who think you can be humanist in Finland without speaking the language and acting according to culture who fail repeatedly.
Or ones who do not have useful skills in Finnish society.
xyz
June 30, 2010
Learn Finnish culture, how to interact in it properly and Finnish worklife opens up.
-This doesn’t answer my question. If I live 5 years with a Finn or if a friend of mine has 2 Master degrees from Finland then you can not tell me that we don’t know anything about Finnish culture.
Shit applicant for most jobs you could apply for.
You do not see people from hard sciences or engineering field unemployed in Finland.
-Actually I know 2. 1 worked in a Pizza shop for 1 year and another guy is Project Engineer from Pakistan but his salary is the lowest in the company. They always tell him that they can’t increase his salary at the moment.
xyz
June 30, 2010
Discrimination Often Unreported in Finland:
http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2010/06/discrimination_often_unreported_1796116.html?origin=rss
xyz
June 30, 2010
Some Employers Take Advantage of the Unemployed:
http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2010/06/some_employers_take_advantage_of_the_unemployed_1790820.html
xyz
June 30, 2010
Labor is foreign:
http://www.ovimagazine.com/art/412
Tiwaz
July 1, 2010
-”This doesn’t answer my question. If I live 5 years with a Finn or if a friend of mine has 2 Master degrees from Finland then you can not tell me that we don’t know anything about Finnish culture.”
Yes I can. You do not learn culture just by being in Finland or studying at university.
Do you actively mingle with Finns? Did your friend mingle with Finns or stick with other foreign students?
Learning the culture is difficult and time consuming. I am willing to bet that neither you nor your friend bothered to learn the nuances of Finn to Finn-interactions. That is the problem, you have most likely ignored most essential part of interaction. Unless you can emulate Finn when in contact with average Finnish employer, you are taking big negative hit in your “score”.
-”Actually I know 2. 1 worked in a Pizza shop for 1 year and another guy is Project Engineer from Pakistan but his salary is the lowest in the company. They always tell him that they can’t increase his salary at the moment.”
Have they had their credentials interpreted into Finnish equivalents?
Does the Pizza guy have skillset which is highly sought after and/or rare in Finland? Or does he work in field where knowledge of local special conditions is essential? If he is professional in field where there already is overabudance of engineers, his cultural and language skills may put him at bottom of the pile.
And your Pakistani fried is NOT unemployed if he is getting salary from company.
He may be victim of crooked employer, but same things happen to Finns as well. He should get in contact with his shop steward/luottamusmies and union. And if he is not member of a union, he should join. Unions can be useful in situations like that.
If employer cannot justify lower wages somehow, then he has valid case for complaint which he should start sorting out.
xyz
July 1, 2010
Do you have tomatoes on your eyes. I think I have wrote here 10 times already that I live with a Finn since 5 years.
Tiwaz
July 2, 2010
And living with Finn does not mean you understand or are able to act according to norms of Finnish culture.
Your SO adjusts behavior to fit you as much as you to them. Result is that at home, you do not have either culture present in the way it is out in the open.
I guess you have tomatoes for brains for lacking ability to grasp that.
And then we have question of language.
Annas tulla xyzzi. Näytäpä ainakin luetun ymmärtäminen…
Ja sitten voisit heittää jatkoksi omaa tekstiä. Onnistuuko?
Ja tämä on sentään helppo koe, voit vapaasti huijata. Tilanne on hiukan toinen jos joudut istumaan pöydän toisessa päässä, ja toisessa on haastattelija.
Your cultural adaptation is not measured by how well you get along with your spouse, it is measured by how easily you can adjust your behavior to fit that of total stranger.
You see, that is purpose of culture. It forms interface through which individuals who are familiar with the norms and values of culture can interact with minimal risk of misunderstandings.
xyz
July 2, 2010
And living with Finn does not mean you understand or are able to act according to norms of Finnish culture.
-No comment on this.
Your cultural adaptation is not measured by how well you get along with your spouse, it is measured by how easily you can adjust your behavior to fit that of total stranger.
-I suppose you are introvert?
xyz
July 2, 2010
More Finnish respondents consider unequal treatment based on a person’s ethnic origin to be the most widespread form of discrimination in their country (70%) compared to the EU average
(64%).
Compared to the EU average more Finns think that being disabled (84%), a Roma (85%), a person from a different ethnic origin (70%) or a homosexual (64%) tends to be a disadvantage.
http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_263_fiche_fi.pdf
xyz
July 5, 2010
Katya
July 15, 2010
Dear all!
My name is Katya, I am a producer at RT TV (Russia Today television), a state Russian TV channel broadcasting in English around the globe. We are doing a story on the initiative of the Finnish immigrants to set up an independent Parliament in Finland to help improve dialogue with the Finnish authorities. To illustrate the need for such a body we are looking for an immigrant story – someone or a family who’ve been facing difficulties in Finland: discrimination or bureacracy that’s made their life uneasy, difficulties finding jobs, exclusion from Finnish society – all that shows the lack of dialogue between immigrants and authorities in Finland. There have been amazing stories here. If some of you would be willing to share your story with RT or could suggest someone you know with an interesting story please contact me on my e-mail: ekaraseva@rttv.ru or call +7 916 801 75 91. Our crew will be in Finland next Monday, July 19th (in Turku) and Thursday , July 22nd (Helsinki). Looking forward to getting your replies. Best, Katya
Frederic
July 16, 2010
Hi everybody.
Well, I ve been working and living for 6 month, from October 2009 to April 2010 in Rauma, Finland, a town next to the sea on the west coast, between Tampere and Turku.
I use to travel a lot and I always can adapt me to the culture and the people that I find on a new country.
But not this time.
I could say that it was my worst experience abroad, or that when I tried to get closer to someone (a girl unfortunately), I almost get hurt by her friend (when I am talking about getting close, it was only meaning know and talk deeply to the person… At that time I had a girlfriend much much more sweet, nice and beautiful thabn the person in question), or that when fins get drunk, they automaticaly get violent 5For the first time in my life, I ve been on not 1 fight, but 4 fight on finnish nightclub)…
I just want to say that YZES fins are racist, egoist, individualist, and that I really hate the way they live.
Let’s analyse it a bit:
What they love to do on vacation ?? Get on a cottage totally lost on the forest. Are they afraid of meeting someone else ??
What is the first thing that I ve been thaught when I came there ?? Don’t get close to the houses, on the country, even if there is no barrier at all around the houses, you don’t want to be watched by the owners… I guess that those people would not like to see some foreigners enjoying their private lake or forest…
And the best one: My friend was a 26 yeras old black skin man… He was working with me over there, and He lived in a building full of fins…
The neighbours called the police after few weeks because (they said) they were afraid of that guy (my friend), they didn’t let their children go out…
Fucking finnish…
xyz
July 17, 2010
Residency by country of birth 2006:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Finland_residency_by_country_of_birth_2006.PNG
bill
July 18, 2010
Hi! I have lived in Finland for almost 3 years now, working and learning. It is a wild polite attitude what I was facing almost all the time living here. Sometimes is very confusing to me geting no response from fins. You just don’t need to have any kind of expectations here. They can act polite but are scared of you in the same time. Fins really don’t know to react when sometimes have a nonfin in front of them.
Avoiding a simple yes or no in my opinion is not a matter of beeing polite, not to upset somebody, but mostly this comes with a different perception of reallity. All nonfins are also humans, sometimes better qualified in work process, sometimes smarter, sometimes uglier. But it is comletely false to treat them like second hand people and not to give them exactly the same chance for a better life in a real competition in a real world.
If Finland is to be one of the greatest nations on the planet this attitude should stop immediately otherwise the lost is for Finland and not for all of us immigrants.
Wake up people! The one in front of you is not less valid because was not born in Finland!
Enrique
July 18, 2010
Hi bill, I know what you mean and a very good and interesting point. Some Finns are so much into putting people into the “us” and “them” camp that it becomes an obsession. If they are going to be more immigrants in the future, there has to be easier pathways to inculsion. At present, it seems that for some you need to be white, European, hold three doctorate degrees and be Einstein’s relative. Maybe an exaggeration, but you know what I mean.
Tiwaz
July 19, 2010
-”I could say that it was my worst experience abroad, or that when I tried to get closer to someone (a girl unfortunately), I almost get hurt by her friend (when I am talking about getting close, it was only meaning know and talk deeply to the person…”
In plain English. You assumed you knew how Finns interact, namely presumed it is just like at home (common idiots mistake) and ended up making inappropriate moves towards her.
YOUR FAULT IDIOT!
-”or that when fins get drunk, they automaticaly get violent 5For the first time in my life, I ve been on not 1 fight, but 4 fight on finnish nightclub)…”
And I, in all my adult life in Finland, have never been in a fight.
Your fault clearly for not grasping the different culture of Finland.
-”What they love to do on vacation ?? Get on a cottage totally lost on the forest. Are they afraid of meeting someone else ??”
So fucking what? Perhaps we value peace, quiet and right to PRIVACY.
If you want to live glued to others go elsewhere. We Finns still value our right to be left in peace. If you can’t live with it (huge number of foreigners actually consider Finland a paradise because here privacy is respected).
-”What is the first thing that I ve been thaught when I came there ?? Don’t get close to the houses, on the country, even if there is no barrier at all around the houses, you don’t want to be watched by the owners… I guess that those people would not like to see some foreigners enjoying their private lake or forest…”
Again proof of foreigner idiocy. No barriers does NOT equal “Free entry”. In case you did not know, and clearly for someone claiming to be well travelled your habit of ignoring legislations of countries is disturbing, Finland has concept of “Jokamiehenoikeus”. Everyone has right to travel in forests etc.
But we have another even more important right. “Kotirauha”. Homepeace as direct translation. Something you apparently cannot respect.
Is it surprising that finns do not exactly jump with joy with possibility of having people like Frederic acting like asses here?
Each and every case you made can easily be explained as your own failure for not figuring out proper conduct beforehand.
Bill:
-”Sometimes is very confusing to me geting no response from fins.”
How about figuring out that Finns have different ways than your native land. Don’t get confused, learn.
Learn to understand the culture instead of assuming your cultural norms apply.
-”You just don’t need to have any kind of expectations here. ”
Best advice ever… Do not expect, do not assume.
Except you forgot to continue: “Instead learn, verify and confirm”
-”But it is comletely false to treat them like second hand people and not to give them exactly the same chance for a better life in a real competition in a real world.”
Can you prove you are not given same chance?
Can you prove that when you have not been chosen, you had all the same skills as person who WAS chosen?
I have applied to lots of jobs and have not been employed. It is not racism, but fact that you are in nation with high competition for most desirable jobs.
You cannot speak local language or act properly is instantly huge minus in your portfolio.
Well over 90% of “racism” is in reality foreigners failing to grasp their limitations. Presuming that not being hired was because someone was racist, instead of accepting that you may have been competing with dozens or hundreds of applicants.
Most of who are fluent in Finnish and English, know at least basic Swedish and possibly even more languages. Have proper Finnish certificates. Know Finnish culture.
Reality which foreigners have to accept is that you guys are competing in society with extremely highly educated population. This is not USA where for most people sufficient basic knowledge is to write your name, read it and name capitol of USA.
-”If Finland is to be one of the greatest nations on the planet this attitude should stop immediately otherwise the lost is for Finland and not for all of us immigrants.”
Why you presume we Finns want Finland to be anything but Finland? Hmm?
Have you ever stopped wonder what FINNS want? No? Well, maybe you should. Maybe you should try to get into the culture and understand it’s workings. What makes Finns tick.
We do not want multicultural international wonderland of crime, sushibars and rampant riots.
We just want to live in nice, small country with stable society.
-”Wake up people! The one in front of you is not less valid because was not born in Finland!”
Wake up people! You foreigners have to accept that you were not dropped from election process because you are foreigner. But because you lack skills.
Or can you prove that foreigner who is equally qualified (with Finnish papers), speaks fluent Finnish and can act appropriately in Finnish cultural context would have been dropped in favor of less qualified and less skilled Finn?
xyz
July 20, 2010
Tiwaz said “Again proof of foreigner idiocy.”
7.000.000.000
- 5.000.000
————-
6.995.000.000 idiots
What a stupid planet we live on
Tiwaz
July 21, 2010
And all those 5 odd billion people are all living in perfect harmony because their cultures are identical.
Which is why only Finland has ever experienced wars, internal and external.
And because everywhere else immigrants perfectly fit into existinc society it was Finland which invented term “white flight”.
And because immigrants never cause trouble is why Finnish city of Malmö (not to be confused with Swedish Malmö where immigrants live in perfect harmony) is constantly in the news over riots.
And because elsewhere everything is fine, Finnish city of Los Angeles experienced violent conflict, sparked by cultural problems, between immigrant Koreans and local black inhabitants.
xyz
July 21, 2010
And because everywhere else immigrants perfectly fit into existinc society it was Finland which invented term “white flight”.
-Now you know why it sucks to be an immigrant in Finland
xyz
July 21, 2010
And all those 5 odd billion people are all living in perfect harmony because their cultures are identical.
http://www.helsinkitimes.fi/htimes/finnish-papers/10108-finns-no-more-violent-than-other-europeans-.html
Tiwaz
July 21, 2010
-”Now you know why it sucks to be an immigrant in Finland”
Yup. We refuse to roll over and die because it would be convenient for immigrants.
Boo hoo.
I do hope you are aware what “white flight” is and where the term was coined. But somehow I doubt that…
As for HelsinkiLies… There is a newspaper dedicated to Enriques vision of racism against Finns.
Finns beat each other, more precisely those failures who drop to social security and fight one another when drunk. So what? Problem is limited to very small portion of population and tends to focus internally.
Compare this to violent riots, murder and crime resulting from cultural conflicts and I can only say that Finland is in enviable position.
Give me drunkards beating each other any day over violent riots where people burn cars/houses of others and attack people around them.
xyz
July 21, 2010
“I do hope you are aware what “white flight” is”
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight
As for HelsinkiLies… There is a newspaper dedicated to Enriques vision of racism against Finns.
-This was an article about a Research done by a Finnish University.
Give me drunkards beating each other any day over violent riots where people burn cars/houses of others and attack people around them.
-Yes exactly, all immigrants in Finnland are violent. That would be the same as If I would say all Finns are drunks which is not true either.
xyz
July 21, 2010
Tiwaz: I am still waiting for the Finnish + Culture Lecture 1
Tiwaz
July 21, 2010
-”This was an article about a Research done by a Finnish University.”
Yes, from “news”paper which thrives on trying to be as anti-Finnish as possible.
-”Yes exactly, all immigrants in Finnland are violent. That would be the same as If I would say all Finns are drunks which is not true either.”
Have I said that all immigrants are violent? Or troublemakers?
No.
But reality is, that unless immigration is more tightly regulated, we WILL have plenty of those troublemakers coming in.
What Finland wants is quality, not quantity. We want those who integrate, who learn the way of the land and adjust to it.
Not those who expect Finns to adjust to them.
We do not need “immigrant parliament”, we need immigrants understanding how Finnish society works, integrating to it and joining FINNISH parliament.
And lecture…
http://finlandforum.org/viewforum.php?f=9&sid=b1eb4f8a04548814ad0308c975ab010a
People there are much better at teaching you Finnish than I am.
xyz
July 21, 2010
Yes, from “news”paper which thrives on trying to be as anti-Finnish as possible.
-But the research was still made by a Finnish University. Finns were the researchers.
We want those who integrate, who learn the way of the land and adjust to it. People there are much better at teaching you Finnish than I am.
-If you want me to integrate into your society then you have to teach and show me your stuff. Why should others do it? You are the one who has problems with lazy immigrants who don’t want to integrate. So now again my question: Teach me Finnish and show me your culture.
xyz
July 21, 2010
What Finland wants is quality, not quantity. We want those who integrate, who learn the way of the land and adjust to it.
-Well in another posting you said:
“Because of POOR QUALITY OF WORK!
Immigrant efficiency equals poor quality”
How do you want to get quality immigrants? According to you they don’t even exist at all.
bill
July 21, 2010
When I was telling to Finland “Wake up!” I meant to look around and look good… Multicultural country/society is good for you also. And in modern world wins the one who can see further than what is near him. So, it is really a good chance for Finland to make that step I was talking about. Just because we are not speaking finish language good enough YET it doesn’t mean that we are stupids. If you prefer not to take advantage of high educated people, then Finland does not need high educated people as it proclames. I can speak good enough finish after taso 1 but this preócess takes time and finish people should be aware that the process is going to last for years. So, with all this dispute around who needs who I think everybody should stop.I really think that there is a place for everybody out there. I still have a lot to learn in Finland, from Finland but I am very sure that, guess what, Finland has a lot to take from me also. In life everybody invests. Finland invested in me the same way I invested in Finland. I invested a lot in this contry for me not to give up and to keep close to notice any anticoncurential acts that somebody might do around me. So, a fair play is a fair play. Finland you should never forget that!
Tiwaz
July 22, 2010
-”When I was telling to Finland “Wake up!” I meant to look around and look good… Multicultural country/society is good for you also. And in modern world wins the one who can see further than what is near him.”
I HAVE looked around. Have YOU?
Name single multicultural society which is not riddled with serious issues of cultural conflict.
You can’t. Because they do not exist.
Trying to have multiple radically different cultures live in same area as equals is impossibility.
One culture or another has to lose and yield, and as Finn in Finland I say it must be culture of immigrant. Not mine.
Britain has taken opposite route, it is NOT increasing stability or unity of that nation.
-”Just because we are not speaking finish language good enough YET it doesn’t mean that we are stupids.”
No. But it does not make you good candidate in any job where fluent Finnish is required does it?
-”If you prefer not to take advantage of high educated people, then Finland does not need high educated people as it proclames. ”
Depends on what your skills are. If you are highly educated but unskilled for job employer has open, you are not prime candidate.
-”I can speak good enough finish after taso 1 but this preócess takes time and finish people should be aware that the process is going to last for years. ”
Who said it doesn’t? Does not change the fact that employers want employees who bring more cash in than out. Which means, if your job requires fluent Finnish, non-fluent Finnish is handicap which makes you less useful.
In case you have not heard, businesses are not charity. They have to make profit.
-”So, a fair play is a fair play.”
It is not Finland who forgot that, but your fellow immigrants.
Fair means this:
Job requires Finnish language = no Finnish = no job.
Foreigner – skills < Finn + skills (and opposite)
Finnish cultural knowledge and Finnish language = skills
Only when you have greater skills for same job as competing Finn, and are not chosen, you can whine about unfair.
xyz
July 29, 2010
Tiwaz, I am still waiting that you teach me Finnish and your culture. If you are not able to do it then stop complaining about lazy immigrants. So I am waiting for lecture 1.
alien
August 8, 2010
Quotation;
Dear all!
My name is Katya, I am a producer at RT TV (Russia Today television), ………….
………..
Hi Katya:
How about my story? It is already mentioned among the posts. Drop me a line if you find it useful for your TV show.
tolueiran@gmail.com
Regards
alien
August 8, 2010
BTW Katya:
I live no more in Finland, I live in Stockholm Sweden. If you got a chance we can meet in Stockholm.
Regards
Tiwaz
August 10, 2010
-”Tiwaz, I am still waiting that you teach me Finnish and your culture. If you are not able to do it then stop complaining about lazy immigrants. So I am waiting for lecture 1.”
And I have told you I am not teacher.
Furthermore, you were too lazy to do it when you were in Finland, so why would I believe you had any real attempt now?
xyz
August 10, 2010
You don’t have to be a teacher. My Fiancee also teaches me from time to time and she is not a teacher. So I am waiting now for your contribution.
Tiwaz
August 10, 2010
-”You don’t have to be a teacher. My Fiancee also teaches me from time to time and she is not a teacher. So I am waiting now for your contribution.”
And what duty I have to provide you this education?
Teaching is something I do not generally enjoy, I admit this. That is why I am not employed as any kind of teacher.
If you truly want to learn, you would look for people who like to teach.
You can find them with little googling.
Here, try that:
http://www.101languages.net/finnish/
xyz
August 10, 2010
I thought you are so much interested in Finnish culture and language? Can you not teach me some basic stuff?
Tiwaz
August 12, 2010
Finnish culture and language are essential part of me.
Can you teach your native language and culture?
How about trying that first. Or do you lack cultural heritage like Enrique?
xyz
August 12, 2010
Or do you lack cultural heritage like Enrique?
-I don’t know what you want to ask with this question. For me people are more important. What’s the use of having fights just because of a cultural background? I live and work here together with other nationalities and we have no issues. Actually, we enjoy it.
Enrique
August 12, 2010
–Or do you lack cultural heritage like Enrique?
Tiwaz has tried millions of ways to insult me. I must admit, he is losing his touch. All the salvos he throws at me end up being duds. Tiwaz, you are wasting your time if you want to make me feel “inferior” because of these comments. They just make me stronger.
xyz
August 12, 2010
Minorities Ombudsman: Immigration Policy Discussion “Populist in Tone”
http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2010/08/minorities_ombudsman_immigration_policy_discussion_quotpopulist_in_tonequot_1900099.html?origin=rss
alien
August 13, 2010
Finns and cultural heritage!!! Makes even the fried chicken in the oven laugh!
Please some body correct me if I am wrong. You Finns came out of woods only 50 years ago. Your country is not even existed 100 years ago. Before that Finland was an exile place for Russians and a playground for Sweds. How come you teaching others about culture? I dont mean to ignore your masterpieces, “Hernekeito” and “Makaronilaatikko” !
Cheers
Enrique
August 13, 2010
xyz, thank you for this link on the minorities ombudsman. Certainly the populists/ultra nationalists will say that they are only “excercising their right to free speech” while they insult and bash immigrants.
Odir Almeida
August 15, 2010
My name is Odir, I’m from Rio de Janeiro and is my second time here, JUST VISITING THIS DEPRESSIVE AND RACIST CITY OF HELSINKI. I’m in a relationship with a Finnish girl and she tried to live with me in Brasil but she couldn’t get a job there. I even thought about looking for a job here, I’m an art director. So, now I have two scars in my face because I was beaten by four guys on the street in Kallio, Helsinki. I’m 32 years old and nothing like this has happened to me before. These guys came to me and ask where I’m from (this kind of stuff happens all the time here, many finnish look at me like I were a rare animal or something). When I answered, one of the guys push me and I fell on top of my bike. They said to me that I should go home. I think that they did not continue beating me because one woman that was with them started screaming them to stop. I went to the hospital to get my face stitched and do a police report on this violence attack. This happened on my birthday 11th of august, what a birthday present I got!! I have also other unpleasant experiences in Finland, when a guy pushed me because of nothing in a bar in Oulu and when the police took aside to ask me if I have drugs when I came back to Helsinki from Tallin. Anyways, I wish to meet finnish people in Rio like always and continue welcoming them to my country like we do for all the visitors and european immigrants also.
Enrique
August 15, 2010
Hi Odir, welcome to Migrant Tales and thank you for sharing your terrible brush with a bunch of racist ruffians. One matter is for certain: there is no tolerance for that kind of behavior. My nephew came from Los Angeles this summer and told me that people are very careful about who they harras and get involved in racially motivated crimes, like beating minorities. Why do they take such matters seriously? Because the POLICE TAKE IT SERIIOUSLY. The police tell us publicly that they are serious about these types of crimes in Finland but how many of these people are actually arrested, tried and found guilty?
An attack on anyone in this society is not against that person but an attack against our values and democratic system.
No need to get bitter about what happened although it makes your blood boil. And you haven’t, which is great. You haven’t given that pleasure to your attackers.
I hope to hear more of you and your opinions about living in Finland.
Karo
August 26, 2010
As a Finn I am sorry to hear about all your terrible experiences in Finland. It is very unfortunate how many Finns are racist.
I am not in any way saying any bad treating of foreigners is acceptable. And I wish we could all live happily together. However, I need to say some of the comments here on Finns are not making you any better than those racist Finns. It is not only “us” and “them”, it is matter of us all. Not only should foreigners learn something about Finnish culture, we Finns should be more understandable towards other cultures. That is the only way. After all we are all human beings.
I spend a lot of time abroad and everytime I step on the metro first after coming back to Finland, I need to switch to my “Helsinki-channel”. That means: no looking around and talking to people around me. Yes, you read right, when I am not in Finland, I often start conversations with people. In Finland, however, most people look at me weird when I do that. This tells about Finnish culture. It is considered rude to interrupt people’s “own time” in this “busy world” (why are they so in a hurry always anyway? and why do we Finns love silence so much?).
In Finland it is very difficult to get to know new people unless you know someone. But I do have to say even my “Helsinki-channel”, I do look around and if someone looks that way, I might still start chatting. This, however, does not happen often. Even the foreigners on the metro seem to have used to the way it is. It’s very unfortunate. Still everyone one of us living in Finland, should remember where we are. We cannot just say people here are strange, it is really the culture. If we are asking Finns to understand other cultures and accept those, it should be given that we try to understand Finnish culture as well.
And about the looking down on some people, I think it has to do with Finnish history – and identity. We have always been the ‘not so great people’, especially under the Swedish rule (not only Sweden but the language). It’s like to prove them wrong or make Finns themselves feel better, they need to treat someone else the way they have been treated.
I am upset that Finnish people now are being arrogant as they are. Now maybe we all should look into ourselves. May be that we could all learn from each other if we stop being so selfish. Give a chance.
Of course I also do think that some things taught at schools should be changed. What kind of books do the teenagers have to read at school? What kind of culture teaching do we have? What kind of role models are the teachers?
Like I said, I spend a lot of time abroad. I am grateful for being able to live in another country and people welcoming me. I want to welcome everyone the same way to Finland. Being disappointed in my country, though, I am considering moving out of Finland for good but at the same time I think, maybe I should stay, we need to stay and change this country. Maybe by our little every day actions.
Enrique
August 26, 2010
Karo, I could not have said it better. I personally feel there is a lot of good will among the government and some Finns to make the “immigration project” work. Folks, culturally diverse Finland has always been here. The only difference with the past is that there are more people from different cultures among our ranks. When we live in a society with lots of people from different cultures, we ALL have to take a step back and take that first crucial step: acceptance. This is a two-way street. Time will do the rest. Those who disagree and seek a “monocultural” model (what is it?) are the ones who are the most reticent to change. Living in a modern society like ours requires a lot of understanding and knowledge.
I hope a lot of people read Karo’s thread. Thank you!
Jaska
September 3, 2010
“alien says:
August 13, 2010 at 1:19 am
Finns and cultural heritage!!! Makes even the fried chicken in the oven laugh!
Please some body correct me if I am wrong. You Finns came out of woods only 50 years ago. Your country is not even existed 100 years ago. Before that Finland was an exile place for Russians and a playground for Sweds. How come you teaching others about culture? I dont mean to ignore your masterpieces, “Hernekeito” and “Makaronilaatikko” !
Cheers”
Thanks for the input, alien. This really shows who are the real ignorant racists and who are not. These are just the people who we Finns don´t want into our country. Unfortunately, right now we don´t have control over it at all, thanks to our impotent government.
For your knowledge, Finland was a colony of its neighbors far longer than any African or South American country has ever been. Now that we finally have our independence after many bloody wars and survived the Cold War, we only ask to be left to live our own lives and preserve our culture and lifestyle. Is that too much to ask?
Most of the commentators here don´t have a clue about what Finland is or what Finns are or are not. Most of the commentators seem to think that FINLAND IS SUPPOSED TO BE MULTICULTURAL, but stupid Finns just don´t get it. Have any of you ever thought for a second that most Finns don´t want Finland to turn into a multicultural country or society? There is a reason why we Finns resist it. That´s because it just doesn´t work.
In Finland we have this saying: “Maassa maan tavalla tai maasta pois”. It literally means “live by the ways of the land or get out”. This is our land and we decide the affairs of this land, not you. You submit to our ways. If you´re not happy with that, then go somewhere else or face trouble. This means total assimilation in cultural ways, language, lifestyle, ideals, values, everything. There is no in-between. There is no multicultural way in Finland. There is only one way: the Finnish way.
This is the reason why some of you have experienced “racism” in Finland. We don´t want outsiders to live as freeloafers in our society. We don´t want foreign criminals to live free in our society. We don´t want multiculturalism into our society. We are being force-fed this “ism” of multiculturalism, we are forced to finance this insanity and we are sick of it all. Just too many of the “immigrants” are just using our welfare system, just too many “immigrants” are here for the easy money and benefits. Too few of the foreigners are law-abiding and respecting people who, unfortunately, get the “racist” outbursts of the angry taxpayers instead of those who would actually deserve them. Then again there are those people who are actual racists, those who just don´t like different people, but those are the same breed who you find in every country in the world from Albania to Zimbabwe.
Unfortunately our current government is messed up with their agendas and there is no clear politics on this issue. If there were such clear practice and politics, it would be a lot easier for all of us. Those who don´t want to be assimilated, don´t even come here, and those who do want to become assimilated, we will welcome if we need them. So, for the “racism”, don´t blame Finns, blame the government and their silly idea of multiculturalism.
henry
September 4, 2010
hi, i have some questions. I married an asylum seeker whom we come together from the same country in africa but she was deported, reason being it was a fake marriage and i was trying to abuse my residence permit. No interview was done between me and migrant officials, they did not bother to ask for my prooves as required by law. They did not give me time to defend my self. On the material day of arrest of my wife a police official call me to go and collect the rejection letter of residence permit of wife only to find that she is already detained in police cell waiting for deportation. The manner in which the rejection letter was given to me worsen my feelings. The police did not talk to me politely either by taking me to his office and explain the reasons of rejecting my wife´s permit but he threw the letters on the bench otside his office, not only that he was shouting that i should bring my wife´s luggage immediately, i felt embarrased beacause there were alot of people queing to be served outside the bench. Was that racism or what?
Enrique
September 5, 2010
Hi Jaska and thank you for your post.
–Most of the commentators seem to think that FINLAND IS SUPPOSED TO BE MULTICULTURAL, but stupid Finns just don´t get it.
Finland IS ALREADY (no past or future tense used here) multicultural. Read history and if you disagree that our social policy is not similar to the Canadian multicultural policy, please read our Constitution and Non-Discrimination Act. Even though the “m” word (multicultural) is not mentioned anywhere in these laws, they are in the same spirit as Canada’s multicultural policy.
–In Finland we have this saying: “Maassa maan tavalla tai maasta pois”. It literally means “live by the ways of the land or get out”.
Do you think that people DO NOT try to adapt and follow the laws of Finland? Adaption has its limits. It does not mean dying one’s hair blonde, getting plastic surgery and acting Finnish. It means beign proud of your heritage in the same way as you are of your culture.
–Immigrants are using our welfare system.
What about Finns? Is it ok for FInns to use it and not ok for immigrants?
–Too few of the foreigners are law-abiding and respecting.
This statement shows me what you think of immigrants: a threat to Finland. As more immigrants come to Finland the more you will be in the minority. Why? Because your affirmation is unfounded and absurd.
Enrique
September 5, 2010
Hi henry and thank you for dropping by. Welcome to our blog. Your case is a good example of how due process is sometimes compromised. Why don’t you go to a lawyer, the minorities ombudsman and inquire about your case. Why? So it won’t happen again.
Klay_Immigrant
September 5, 2010
-’What about Finns? Is it ok for Finns to use it (welfare system) and not ok for immigrants?’
In a word yes. Why? Because a country should look after it’s own citizens first and foremost as those citizens aren’t the responsibility of any other country, unlike immigrants who always have the option of going back to their own country where they would treated and viewed the same way Finns are in Finland.
Enrique
September 5, 2010
–In a word yes. Why? Because a country should look after it’s own citizens first and foremost as those citizens aren’t the responsibility of any other country…
So what you are saying is that natives should have one set of rights and immigrants should abide by other skimpier and suspect ones. Are you living in the present year or somewhere in 1950s England? Immigrants pay taxes, have legal residence and are therefore a part of our society. You should know that or maybe you want to change the laws and take away basic civil and human rights from immigrants living in your country? I guess that is what you want.
Klay_Immigrant
September 5, 2010
If an immigrant is on welfare then they are not paying taxes as they have no income therefore not contributing anything to society.
If an immigrant pays taxes and is not on welfare then they should be entitled to all the services as the locals.
I think that sounds reasonable.
Enrique
September 5, 2010
–If an immigrant is on welfare then they are not paying taxes as they have no income therefore not contributing anything to society.
He may have paid taxes before. It is his right as a member of that society to collect welfare. If you think that the welfare state is “too generous” then that involves a whole different debate. The social welfare system is a backup for those that may become unemployed or suffer a disability during their lifetime. These matters are beyond our control. It is a good thing that the state takes responsibility for its inhabitants. This is a rule in many countries, not an exception.
Jaska
September 5, 2010
Hi Enrique!
“Finland IS ALREADY (no past or future tense used here) multicultural.”
No it´s not. Multiculturalism is an ideology where society, a state or country is supposed to be multicultural and it´s a political decision to have a multicultural society.
The fact that there are different ethnic groups living in a society doesn´t make it “multicultural”, it´s only a multiethnic society. Multiculturalism is an ideal where all ethnic or cultural groups are “celebrating and respecting their cultural differences and the diversity of the society” so there is no one certain dominating cultural group.
In Finland this would mean that the basis of Finnish society, the leading Finnish culture and the Finnish way of life should give way as a leading ideal to countless amount of other cultures, religions and lifestyles of those people who come to live in Finland. There are no common leading ideal or values in multicultural society that glues the society together, other than the multiculturality itself, the politically enforced celebration of the fact that there is no common ideal. It´s an internally divided and poltically, ethnically, culturally and religiously shattered society where there is no unity at all. In other words, it´s the very opposite of the Finnish society, truly an alien ideology to all Finns.
I´d like to point out that the vast majority of the Finns are against the forced multiculturalisation of our country. Those who are enforcing it are a very small group of the political “elite”, who are right now transforming our society into something they only want, without asking permission from the people. Right until now even the conversation about this “progress” was practically outlawed. So that´s propably the reason why you think you are living in a multicultural Finland, but in reality you are only living in country that has turned into multiethnic by political decisions in a very short period of time.
“Do you think that people DO NOT try to adapt and follow the laws of Finland? Adaption has its limits.”
Just too many immigrants are not even trying since they are told that multicultural diversity demands that they keep and endorse their culture, religion and their way of life. There are way too many immigrants who won´t even learn our language, not to even mention the ways of the country or the Finnish lifestyle. This happens at the expense of the effective assimilation of the fast growing and diversifying immigrant population. The more there are unassimilated or unadapted immigrants in this country, the less it´s safe and working society for all. In other words, the more “multicultural” it gets, the less it works.
Once again I have to point out that the multiculturalist clique is doing this on purpose as they are loosening the immigration and integration laws and practices, in order to create an artificial or synthetic multicultural society of their desing into Finland.
“–Immigrants are using our welfare system.
What about Finns? Is it ok for FInns to use it and not ok for immigrants?”
Finns have created the Finnish Social Welfare System for their own needs with their own expense. Those who participate in upkeeping that system are welcome to use its benefits. Those who don´t participate in it´s upkeep are just using it, basically stealing from others and that´s not acceptable.
“–Too few of the foreigners are law-abiding and respecting.
This statement shows me what you think of immigrants: a threat to Finland. As more immigrants come to Finland the more you will be in the minority. Why? Because your affirmation is unfounded and absurd.”
There is a growing distrust and suspicion of the governments integration politics and also growing anti-immigration sentiment as there are a flood of false asylum seekers, cheap labor, criminals and social welfare abusing parasites into our country. These immigrant groups are a real and immediate threat to our society simply because of the sheer size of them but the government doesn´t seem to do anything about them. People are sick of the situation and feel that if this state of affairs continues too long, our society will be transformed irreversibly into something that´s not Finnish anymore. For example, in the larger cities, neighborhoods are turning into crime-infested immigrant slums and ghettos because of uncontrolled immigration, so the threat is very real and the fear is not unfounded or absurd at all.
It´s not just the numbers of immigration, it´s also the unassimilated, unadapting and resisting immigrants that are a threat to Finland which until today has been a very stable and safe society. The more there are unassimilated immigrants in a society, the more it becomes unsafe, dormant, incoherent and “multicultural” for all of those who live in it.
Most of the time the people who talk about small sizes of minorities and the relatively small numerical size of immigrants coming to Finland forget the fact that Finns themselves are vanishingly small minority amongst the peoples of the Earth. We, the Finns, only want to preserve our culture and way of life as everyone else does and the only way to do that is to make sure that immigration doesn´t change Finland too much. Most of the debaters don´t see this at all. They don´t care about how much the immigrant population will grow in time and, if things go the way they do now, will replace the Finnish populations sovereignty in its own country. We´ve been on the brink of complete extermination too many times to just let it all be destroyed by some small group with insane social experiment.
So it´s a benefit to everyone that all immigrants abandon all the ideas of multiculturality and and try to adapt as hard as they can to Finnish society and also demand real government control of it, and if necessary, an expulsion of those who don´t. That way there will be the miminum of ethnic or religious confrontations between Finns and the immigrants and also amongst the growing and diversifying immigrant population.
Enrique
September 5, 2010
–No it´s not. Multiculturalism is an ideology where society, a state or country is supposed to be multicultural and it´s a political decision to have a multicultural society.
Jaska, even though there is no mention of the word multiculturalism in our Constitution and Non-Discrimination Act, Finland has sensibilities towards the Canadian form of multiculturalism. This is seen in our Constitution:
Section 6 – Equality
Everyone is equal before the law.
No one shall, without an acceptable reason, be treated differently from other persons on the ground of sex, age, origin, language, religion, conviction, opinion, health, disability or other reason that concerns his or her person. Children shall be treated equally and as individuals and they shall be allowed to influence matters pertaining to themselves to a degree corresponding to their level of development.
Equality of the sexes is promoted in societal activity and working life, especiallyEquality of the sexes is promoted in societal activity and working life, especially in the determination of pay and
the other terms of employment, as provided in more detail by an Act.
Section 11 – Freedom of religion and conscience
Everyone has the freedom of religion and conscience. Freedom of religion and conscience entails the right to profess and practice a religion, the right to express one’s convictions and the right to be a member of or decline to be a member of a religious community. No one is under the obligation, against his or her conscience, to participate in the practice of a religion.
Section 17 – Right to one’s language and culture
The national languages of Finland are Finnish and Swedish. The right of everyone to use his or her own language, either Finnish or Swedish, before courts of law and other authorities, and to receive official documents in that language, shall be guaranteed by an Act. The public authorities shall provide for the cultural and societal needs of the Finnish-speaking and Swedish-speaking
populations of the country on an equal basis. The Sami, as an indigenous people, as well as the Roma and other groups, have the right to maintain and develop
their own language and culture. Provisions on the right of the Sami to use the Sami language before the authorities are laid down by an Act. The rights of persons using sign language and of persons in need of interpretation or translation aid owing to disability shall be guaranteed by an Act.
Enrique
September 5, 2010
–I´d like to point out that the vast majority of the Finns are against the forced multiculturalisation of our country.
So what you are saying is that the majority of Finns do not want to have immigrants enjoying the same rights as Finns. If you are speaking of the Canadian social policy, you have to change the laws of Finland in order to treat immigrants unequally.
–So it´s a benefit to everyone that all immigrants abandon all the ideas of multiculturality and and try to adapt as hard as they can to Finnish society…
A benefit to whom? You cannot erase culture. You can yank it out and try to stomp it out but do you think that is good for a human being? A person that has self-esteem of himself and his culture can learn a new one. Look at what happened to the Amerindians. What you are saying is that immigrants, or Finns who claim this country as their home, do not have a right to their history and identity?
alien
September 5, 2010
Thank you Enrique and others for not loosing your sanity when living in such a mental hospital, and still try to remain decent and reasonable. Enrique I really admire your patience.
One of the hardest torture to me is that one has to deal with an adult with a child brain in his/her head. The depth of what some of immigrants are discussing here is beyond the ability of Finns to perceive and absorb.
The problem is so clear without one needs to take it to Multi-culturalism discussion. We immigrants are also human beings. Made of flesh and blood. We also want to live and enjoy the life. The majority of us abide the law, work, pay tax, know the language, is a good father or mother and contribute to the society. I should not pay the price if some immigrants are not so. Do all the Finns work, not abusing the system, following laws and so on? NO.
You Finn should not pay for those that are a burden to the society, why should we pay?
800 hundred thousands Finn are living in Sweden and many of whom are abusing the system according to your definitions. Do you think if Sweden was like Finland, almost 1 million Finn would choose to live in there? No
The brain of the majority of Finns is single-task processor. That is why you give the simplest answer which comes to your mind, “Our way or High way”. Well this does not work, independent of who I am and who you are. If that would work, you would still have apartheid in South-Africa. We still have to see the racial segregation in US. Look at the trend if digesting the reality is too complicated for you. The mankind has moved from total selfishness toward more tolerance. If assimilation would be the answer, you would not have Swedish or Sami as national languages, you would not have the names of the street written in Swedish. If a Swede can have his own way of living, his own traditions, his own culture, why a legal immigrant who pays tax and speak the language and do 1000 things that you cannot do, should be the same?
Finns learn thing by hard way. The solution is not laying in assimilation or imposing ones culture to the other one. The solution lies in co-existing and living with each other. The solution is giving equal chances to every one and asking responsibility from them. You punish immigrants more than Finns, but giving much less right to them compared to a Finn.
You dont know what you are cultivating, but you will certainly see the result which I am afraid that it would not be what you like. Beneath the surface you are seeding hatred in the hearts and minds of those you are discriminating and this tumor will some day burst up.
People like me are capable to seek life some where else, but for some to whom leaving is not the option, there remains 2 ways. Either being like Enrique and spending hours to work through, and those who does not have such ability and are not simply predictable! So either Finland change, or accept the consequences. unfortunately Finland’s history shows that they learn through the hard way!!!!!
God bless decent immigrants who have to live in Finland!
Enrique
September 5, 2010
alien, this is one of the the most sensible thing I have heard you ever say and I agree 100% with you. I could not have said it better. It is absurd to think that an immigrant who leaves his country and moves to the other side of the world does so only to relax and live off welfare. Among all groups you find all types. Many immigrants are ambitious people and real survivors. Looking at what you said and what you have suffered I can see a lot of wisdom in your words. When I was in London I stayed in Fulham, where there are a lot of immigrants from different countries. A black receptionist at the hotel I was staying told me that racism was a big problem in those places in England were there were few immigrants. As more immigrants make Finland their home, the more accepting society will be. Even so the immigrants have to forge their own history and place in society. Nobody will do it for them except themsevles. This is a long-term project taking generations.
Jaska
September 5, 2010
Enrique:
“So what you are saying is that the majority of Finns do not want to have immigrants enjoying the same rights as Finns.”
No. I´m saying that the majority welcomes the adapting immigrants to enjoy the same rights as Finns enjoy.
“If you are speaking of the Canadian social policy, you have to change the laws of Finland in order to treat immigrants unequally.”
I´m not talking about Canadian social policy.
“What you are saying is that immigrants, or Finns who claim this country as their home, do not have a right to their history and identity?”
I´m saying that everyone has the right to their history and indentity but it has to stay as a private matter. Its not a matter of official state politics to endorse everyones cultural or ethnic background.
“As more immigrants make Finland their home, the more accepting society will be. Even so the immigrants have to forge their own history and place in society. Nobody will do it for them except themsevles. This is a long-term project taking generations.”
This is very alarming. Very alarming indeed. You talk about changing the Finnish society into a migrant society without a dialoque with the Finnish people? Slowly replacing the Finns with immigrants so it would be more “accepting” atmosphere for more immigrants?
That´s exactly what the Russians were doing in the Baltic States during the Soviet-era as part of “rooting out the national thinking” of the once independent nation states of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. Their plan was to replace the local populations with generations-long project of Russian immigration and forced population transfers, thus making the states more “accepting” to communism and Russian rule by slow ethnic cleansing and irreversible ethnographic changes.
I think alien already hinted that way : “So either Finland change, or accept the consequences. unfortunately Finland’s history shows that they learn through the hard way!!!!!”
So it´s “submit to a new rule peacefully or else…”?
Enrique
September 6, 2010
Jaska, what does “adapting immigrants” mean?
–I´m saying that everyone has the right to their history and indentity but it has to stay as a private matter. Its not a matter of official state politics to endorse everyones cultural or ethnic background.
Why is it a private matter if they are Finns? Certainly your background is not the only valid representative of Finland. Finland has a very rich cultural background of people from many cultural backgrounds. The fact that about 750,000 emigrated in the last century is one example including the ever-growing number of immigrants and children from multicultural marriages. I will contest that you are the ONLY VALID represenative of this land and that I have to practice a part of my background inside closed doors.
–You talk about changing the Finnish society into a migrant society without a dialoque with the Finnish people?
Finnish society, like any society, is constantly changing. Sensible Finns are interested in dialogue. This applies to immigrants as well. Culture is not a museum piece in a time warp. Cultures change and adapt because they are in contact with other cultures.
Your example of the Soviet Union is totally invalid. In the first place, nobody is “imposing” anything except following the rules of a democratic society (ideals like equality and respect between cultures) not that of an autocratic state like the former Soviet Union. That is one of the reasons why the USSR imploded: it was very poor when it came to accepting otherness. That is why it shot itself in the leg and was cut from the knees. Societies that embrace “Otherness” are the ones that are the most successful in the world. If you have a problem with it, it is like living in a dysfunctional family. You are messed up. You need outside help.
Jaska
September 6, 2010
“I will contest that you are the ONLY VALID represenative of this land and that I have to practice a part of my background inside closed doors.”
Well, if you want less “racism” then you keep it private. As simple as that.
“Your example of the Soviet Union is totally invalid. In the first place, nobody is “imposing” anything except following the rules of a democratic society (ideals like equality and respect between cultures) not that of an autocratic state like the former Soviet Union.”
This is actually reality in todays Finland. Multiculturalist clique (with its political minions of immigrant background) is imposing its unilateral “single-party” social system of multiculturalism. In this system there´s no room for dissidents, as we´ve seen already happen.
There´s only a limited freedom of speech as people are sentenced to disproportionately long imprisonment for thought crimes in show trials. As it has happened over and over again, the state prosecutor is persecuting the dissidents, the political elite has almost outlawed national thinking and even the use of national enblems. Even the police has been instructed to “detect” certain amount of racist crimes per year, yet at the same time they´ve been instructed to hide or cover up immigrant crime to keep people from anti-multiculturalist thoughts and sentiment. The so called “positive discrimination” has made immigrants privileged population with a different set of laws in practice.
The only allowed way of thinking alongside with having no opinion at all is pro-multiculturalism. Some politicians have even presented that people, who are against immigration and multiculturalism, shouldn´t be allowed to vote. The state run media is imposed by law to promote multiculturalism and there´s a widespread censorship in effect. The teaching material of primary schools has been renewed to promote multiculturalism.
Politicians have presented plans of forced population transfers to keep white flight-phenomenon and the formation of immigrant slums in control, and to maintain the neighborhoods of some cities multicultural by force. At the same time it is being presented plans for forced settlement of refugee and asylum seeker populations to the smaller towns in the rural areas, turning them multicultural as well.
This is exactly what the Soviet Union was doing to the Baltic States and many of the practices were in common use in East Germany and in other satellites of Soviet Union. And you think this is a “democratic society which promotes equality and respect between cultures”? You approve and support this?
xyz
September 6, 2010
The so called “positive discrimination” has made immigrants privileged population with a different set of laws in practice.
-Yeah, thats why I am working in Ireland. I got so privileged that they only offered me cleaner jobs at the labor office if I would be able to learn Finnish.
The state run media is imposed by law to promote multiculturalism and there´s a widespread censorship in effect. The teaching material of primary schools has been renewed to promote multiculturalism.
-That’s a really good initiative of the Government. Hopefully this will remove the prejudice against foreigners. Most of the young people in Finland I know are anyway open minded today.
Finland was
650 years Swedish
100 years Russian
90 years Finnish
How is it possible that Finland is not multicultural? This would mean that Finnish Society would have removed all foreign cultural aspects of the last 700 years
Jaska
September 6, 2010
“Finland was
650 years Swedish
100 years Russian
90 years Finnish
How is it possible that Finland is not multicultural? This would mean that Finnish Society would have removed all foreign cultural aspects of the last 700 years”
This is quite “funny”, actually. There is the enforced and mandatory education of swedish language, that every single Finn has to go through and learn the swedish language, yet people who speak swedish as their native tongue consist of about 2,5 % of the population of Finland. Finland is the only country in the world where the huge majority has to learn the language of the tiny minority.
So, how is it going to be in the future when certain immigrant groups grow larger to match size of the swedish speaking minority? Every Finn has to learn to speak russian, arabic and somali too?
Boy, isn´t enforced multiculturalism sweet.
Enrique
September 6, 2010
–Well, if you want less “racism” then you keep it private. As simple as that.
Do you have any idea what you are implying? What you are saying is that if we want less rape then women should dress like in the Victorian era. You are stating that racism is ok. The victim should take action by hiding not the perpetrator. You are asking minorities to become “closet” nationals. Do you think it is a bad thing that gays stay in the closet in order to avoid hate crimes against them?
–This is actually reality in todays Finland. Multiculturalist clique (with its political minions of immigrant background) is imposing its unilateral “single-party” social system of multiculturalism. In this system there´s no room for dissidents, as we´ve seen already happen.
Baloney. Then what are you doing “dissenting” in this blog?
–There´s only a limited freedom of speech as people are sentenced to disproportionately long imprisonment for thought crimes in show trials.
Please name me some specific cases.
Jaska
September 6, 2010
“–This is actually reality in todays Finland. Multiculturalist clique (with its political minions of immigrant background) is imposing its unilateral “single-party” social system of multiculturalism. In this system there´s no room for dissidents, as we´ve seen already happen.
Baloney. Then what are you doing “dissenting” in this blog?”
If I do it with my own full name, I´ll be prosecuted for “Inciting hatred against a group of people”. This very discussion wouldn´t even be possible on any larger media controlled public forums because of the censorship.
“–There´s only a limited freedom of speech as people are sentenced to disproportionately long imprisonment for thought crimes in show trials.
Please name me some specific cases.”
Latest is the case of Seppo Lehto, who was sentenced to imprisonment for over 2 years without probation, for writing filth about some civil servants, politicians and also about immigrants and immigration politics on his internetsite.
For comparison, for manslaughter you generally get half of that sentence or just probation, and for such “crimes” as in Lehto´s case, the sentence is usually just a large fine. The sentence he got was the maximum that the law allows and it has never been applied before.
alien
September 6, 2010
Jaka said:
So, how is it going to be in the future when certain immigrant groups grow larger to match size of the swedish speaking minority? Every Finn has to learn to speak russian, arabic and somali too?
Boy, isn´t enforced multiculturalism sweet.
Who knows, maybe you undergo a full cuircumcision too.
I cannot wait to see that!!!
Klay_Immigrant
September 6, 2010
It’s funny reading comments by immigrants criticising and blasting Finnish people yet they choose to live in their country. Can’t anyone see the irony in that? If I didn’t respect and like a group of people then the last thing I would do is to live in their country.
alien
September 6, 2010
Living in a country does not mean to be silent and not to criticize. If mankind was happy with what they had, you would still live in the stone age! What hwlp us is not to be silent, but to listen to the critiques!
Klay_Immigrant
September 6, 2010
alien you sound like Christopher Colombus wanting to conquer Finland. Why should Finns change for you? They didn’t invite you to come and stay, that was on your own accord. If you don’t like it, there are plenty of other countries to move to. Before you assume things I’m neither Finnish or even white, but have lived in many countries as an immigrant and had no problems adapting and integrating, something you seem allergic to.
xyz
September 6, 2010
Klay if you have lived in so many countries why do you have such a problem with foreigners then? This is completely nonsense. The more I travel the less I care about people who are different. At least that’s my experience.
Enrique
September 6, 2010
In the first place, I use my real name in this blog. Why? Because I take responsibility for what I say. If what I say has a problem with the law, then maybe I am the problem. We live in a free and democratic country where we have the institutions and tools to air our differences. Claiming that there is censorship is abandoning the debate because you feel that you are not good enough. Those who are racist never admit it because deep down inside they know it is wrong.
–Latest is the case of Seppo Lehto.
Oh no! THE Seppo Lehto?! There is a fine line between freedom of speech and slander. This is another cop out: insulting everyone and other religious groups and then hiding under the cloak of freedom of speech. People like Lehto make a mockery of freedom of speech.
Do you know what is a good yardstick to use when you speak about other cultures? Would you speak that way about your own culture? If not, keep your mouth shut.
Klay_Immigrant
September 6, 2010
-’Klay if you have lived in so many countries why do you have such a problem with foreigners then?’
Your missing the point xzy, I don’t have any problems, quite the contrary actually. If I had a problem with foreigners I would have never travelled in the first place and stayed in a cocoon happily.
When you visit different countries you appreciate more the differences in people with their different culture, architecture, character etc. That’s the beauty in mankind. In order to maintain that multiculturalism is the enemy as in 100 years or so there will be very little difference between countries in Europe as a result. For instance if I go to Japan I want to see traditional Japanese culture and customs not Finnish culture and customs. That doesn’t mean I have a problem with Finland. The same applies to all the other countries. I don’t want large sections or areas of countries to resemble other countries like in Britain where the natives feel like outsiders in their own country. It’s wrong.
alien
September 6, 2010
Klay:
It seems that you are taking this on personal level. That means that some one who already has an opinion and just too obsessed with himself that bother to read carefully!!!
But:
1- Change is the nature of the evolution, you dont like it you will turn into problems. That includes me, you and finland. the moment we stop to change, that is when we are dead.
2- What is wrong with critisizing? Indeed nothing. and that is my point. If you have any thing against it, we are happy to hear it.
3- I am not living in finland. I left that mental hospital some years ago. And yes I am very adopable. I live in Sweden. I found it a country which deserve to be named a land of oportunities.
4- On contrary to you, I am white, but being white ot black or blue is not the point in here. Stupid people can be found among all races and colors, including blacks.
5- I doubt if you have lived in so many countries or for considerable period of time. That is simply beyond the knowledge of some one who does not pay to the point and throws some nonesense in the air. I suggest you read the posts before get into conclusions.
xyz
September 6, 2010
Klay, the problem nowadays is only that we live in a globalized world. I know plenty of people who live together with people from other countries. Young people are studying all over the world and many also stay there. Cultures will mix up more and more. It’s just natural. My parents have both a different cultural background. So which one should I chose? Should I be Christian or Muslim? Honestly, I don’t care. Every culture has it pros and cons. Everybody should do/believe what he/she wants and let others do the same as well.
Klay_Immigrant
September 6, 2010
With an attitude like yours it’s easy to see why you were a failure in Finland. The mental hospital you are talking about has topped international rankings in education, literacy, honesty and the sustainable use of national resources in recent years. But hey most refugees think Somalia is a better country than Finland so each to their own.
Klay_Immigrant
September 6, 2010
I was talking to alien not xyz.
Jaska
September 6, 2010
“In the first place, I use my real name in this blog. Why? Because I take responsibility for what I say. If what I say has a problem with the law, then maybe I am the problem. We live in a free and democratic country where we have the institutions and tools to air our differences. Claiming that there is censorship is abandoning the debate because you feel that you are not good enough. Those who are racist never admit it because deep down inside they know it is wrong.”
Hmmm. Ok. So it´s the people and their opinions that are the problem, not the ideological laws or those who are in power? It´s ok that for example immigrants that are muslims can drag the Lutheran Bible and Finns as a people through mud, but a Finn can´t say anything negative about islam in Finland without ending up into a courtroom? Do you call that just and equal?
“Oh no! THE Seppo Lehto?! There is a fine line between freedom of speech and slander. People like Lehto make a mockery of freedom of speech.”
I´m not defending Lehto, I´m criticizing the absurd sentence and why he got it.
“Do you know what is a good yardstick to use when you speak about other cultures? Would you speak that way about your own culture? If not, keep your mouth shut.”
We used to have a culture of open debate about any issue, no matter how delicate. Now it´s turned into an absurdity. You can say anything about Finns, even really anti-Finnish, anti-Lutheran and racist things are said, as a real intent of incitement of hatred against Finns without any consequences. But if a Finn says negative things about certain problems of immigration politics or about some immigrant groups themselves, the commentator is in very many cases prosecuted, very often only for speaking about real problems.
It´s not a democratic country with an independent justice system if you must face charges for wrong kind of opinions. Thats how they run things in North Korea, Saudi Arabia and Iran. And in 2010, in Finland too.
Enrique
September 6, 2010
–It´s not a democratic country with an independent justice system if you must face charges for wrong kind of opinions. Thats how they run things in North Korea, Saudi Arabia and Iran. And in 2010, in Finland too.
So you would compare Finland to countries like North Korea and Saudi Arabia? Are you kidding?
Hey, Jaska, didn’t anyone teach you that if you insult people they are going to get pissed off?
You can’t say anything about Islam? There are some in this blog who do and I have never got a call from the authorities. I think the problem is that you do not understand your rights as a Finn but are ready to dictate what rights others should have. That is wreckless.
The laws of this land are passed by our representatives. Sure, no democracy is perfect, but I would be careful about knocking this one. You as a Finnish citizen have a lot of rights but live in a country that you compare with North Korea. I am totally lost with you.
Jaska
September 6, 2010
“So you would compare Finland to countries like North Korea and Saudi Arabia? Are you kidding?”
I´m comparing their actual freedom of speech. By the way, the European Court of Human Rights has protested for the poor state of freedom of speech in Finland. Do you think they are kidding too?
“Hey, Jaska, didn’t anyone teach you that if you insult people they are going to get pissed off?”
Sure, but in Finland if I insult you and you are an immigrant, you don´t have to get pissed ´cos the state prosecutor on your behalf will, even if you don´t think its necessary. Thats insane!
“You can’t say anything about Islam? There are some in this blog who do and I have never got a call from the authorities.”
That´s because you´re not a Finn.
“I am totally lost with you.”
The feeling is mutual.
Enrique
September 6, 2010
–That´s because you´re not a Finn.
How do you know that? What? I can do this blog even if I were a Finn. It is understanding what is proper and what is inappropriate.
alien
September 6, 2010
Klay:
With an attitude like yours it’s easy to see why you were a failure in Finland. ………..
For your information. This failure in Finland has a B.Sc (graduated with distinction), M.Sc, and MBA. 12 years experience (IT) in Industry and academia. Ranking 3rd in 1995 among the 81kg division Boxers in Finland, and spar partner with the Finnish super heavy-weight champ. This failure also studied 10 units of PHD and 1 year or research work, before they stop him to go further. What a failure!!
It does not matter what color you are. Your mentality is the same as Tony Halme Type of Finns, in that you all sharing the same definition of failure. There was previously a Finn who would introduced himself as Brazilian or Italian in these posts. Later on it appeared that he is just pretending not to be a Finn, to show some foreigners share the Finn views in suppressing immigrants and Refugees. You remind me very much of him.
Again who you are is of no interest to me, but what you say is!!! And you say nothing but the wishes of the most right-wing fascist in Finland (be silent!). That is also OK to me, because the world is full of poor assholes inferiors. One more or one less does not make much difference.
About Somalia!!!!
I have not much knowledge about the place. I know the Finns hate them a lot, but at the same time their existence in finland is considered to be a bless. After all Finns feel good to show they have any thing to say when they compare themselves with where religion has destructed all the infrastructures. They usually have the lowest confidence in front of the most f the nations. They need at least 10 bears for starting a simple conversation.
About Finland being educated, literate, honest !!!
That maybe true! But educating 5 millions is not a hard task. to destroy illiteracy in India or China is a difficult one. Most of the communist countries have none or little illiterate.
Honesty!
I doubt if Finland has not been liberated by Lenin in 1917, and they would not be freed until 1990s, they could be considered honest! The importance of win or loose depends on how hard a match one has taken part. I guess the weakest team in the Spanish football league would be stronger than the Finnish football champion.
So not any ranking really shows the truth behind. The reality is slightly more complex than it seems.
But I could say Finland should improve its press, judiciary system, immigration and integration if they are to be considered a serious country. Other than that, whatever!!
Jaska
September 6, 2010
alien: “I doubt if Finland has not been liberated by Lenin in 1917…”
It´s nice to see that you´ve managed to learn the basic facts from Finnish history. It´s a new fact even to me, a Finn, that our country was liberated by Lenin from uh, some enemy of his, I guess.
Klay_Immigrant
September 6, 2010
Key word alien you seem to have missed was attitude, not education or sporting prowess. Somebody could be the richest, most educated, sporting etc. but they could still have the wrong attitude when coming to a new country and refusing to integrate and adapt leading to failure in that country.
-’About Somalia!!!!
I have not much knowledge about the place. I know the Finns hate them a lot, but at the same time their existence in finland is considered to be a bless.’
How is having uneducated, unskillful, non Finnish or English speaking, and sometimes illiterate group of people a blessing to Finland. Would you want your children to have these attributes?
-’About Finland being educated, literate, honest !!!
That maybe true! But educating 5 millions is not a hard task’
According to this statement then any country with a population less than Finland should be advanced and educated. So Jamaica, Albania, or Eritrea should be world leaders too. I rest my case.
-’The importance of win or loose depends on how hard a match one has taken part. I guess the weakest team in the Spanish football league would be stronger than the Finnish football champion’
The same could be said of ice hockey vice versa. What’s your point? Silly analogue.
You sound like someone who has a massive chip on their shoulder. If as you claim have that education background then you chose to live in Finland in the first place because it was attractive. You lacked something there and had to leave and now you take your frustrations out on here saying how backwards Finland is. In a short space of time no country could have changed so much. The fact that you are comparing Finland with Somalia shows a complete lack of awareness and reality.
alien
September 6, 2010
alien: “I doubt if Finland has not been liberated by Lenin in 1917…”
It´s nice to see that you´ve managed to learn the basic facts from Finnish history. It´s a new fact even to me, a Finn, that our country was liberated by Lenin from uh, some enemy of his, I guess.
So you think your grand daddy did that. If things like that would be left to him, you would not exist! We know all your history. Please dont make such a hero of yourselves.
Look at the historic letter in which Lenin as the head of the Belshovik government approved the independence of Finland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ven_tunnustaa_Suomen_itsenisyyden.png
alien
September 6, 2010
Klay says:
Key word alien you seem to have missed was attitude, not education or sporting prowess. Somebody could be the richest, most educated, sporting etc. but they could still have the wrong attitude when coming to a new country and refusing to integrate and adapt leading to failure in that country. ..
Maybe the problem is that country! Why dont you open your eyes to see what every immigrant is saying? Integration is a two-way road. We are also saying integration, but Finland is after assimilation. Look at the posts by other Finns. They want assimilation. You want a band on criticizing. I dont give a shit in how advanced you may be. Soviet Union also sent men to the space. They achieved the greatest success of their time. but they wanted to muzzle the people. It simply does not work.
You forget about me. I am a failure or any description that you would like to use about me. The point which you dodge is that immigrants are also humans. Their voice should be heard and their rights
should be admitted. Integration means giving rights and asking responsibilities. In Finland the first part is missing!
….
You lacked something there and had to leave and now you take your frustrations out on here saying how backwards Finland is. In a short space of time no country could have changed so much. The fact that you are comparing Finland with Somalia shows a complete lack of awareness and reality.
….
Not really I am not frustrated. Sweden is not less than Finland. Sweden is more advanced and more cosmopolitan than Finland. I have a great connection with my colleagues, neighbors what I could not have in Finland. In Sweden, it almost a crime to ask some one why did you come to Sweden. Here is free press. Press can investigate any thing. There is no red light in here. The difference is huge. you can ask the Finns who live in Sweden. I hope the economy also turns around and new company that I have also started boom. SO I think I am very happy. I sometimes feel pity for the rest of immigrants who have to live in Finland. I mean it. That is why every now and then I check this site and admire the work of Enrique and other decent people. So I dont want to pay to personal things, but I have answered your accusations about me.
And BTW, I left Finland voluntarily, and I did not lack any thing. The life is too short that one has to explain himself/herself all the time. So for me Finland was like a psychiatric ward. If that is a paradise for you, then fine. You could have your opinion and I could have mine.
Enrique
September 6, 2010
Even though the Finns resisted and did a lot to get their independence, it was Lenin that gave the green light. It was a bit of Boris Yeltsin’s role in the independence of the Baltic Republics. Even though Finns fought heroically in the Winter War, they forget to mention that possible French and English entry into the war against the Soviet Union to defend Finland made Stalin sign a peace accord. It was not all done alone. International help and cooperation are very important.
Jaska
September 7, 2010
alien: “So you think your grand daddy did that. If things like that would be left to him, you would not exist! We know all your history. Please dont make such a hero of yourselves.
Look at the historic letter in which Lenin as the head of the Belshovik government approved the independence of Finland.”
Enrique: “Even though the Finns resisted and did a lot to get their independence, it was Lenin that gave the green light.”
LOL. As if Lenin “gave” the independence to Finns! Lenin didn´t “approve” or “give green light” to anything, he and his comrades recognized the independence of Finland, since Finland had already declared its independence from Russia. The same thing was done with Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.
Right after “approving the independence” or “giving the green light”, they incited a violent revolt in Finland, armed the Finnish Reds, sent troops and officers to help in the communist revolution they had started. The exact same thing was done in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania amongst others.
Lenins plan was to accept every declaration of independence from Russia, then start an internal struggle of “class war” in those new and independent countries and then incorporate them to Soviet Russia as communist states after the Russian Civil War was won. Another plan was to use simple brutal force to “liberate” the country.
Lenins plans worked very well as the states of Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Belarus, and Ukraine eventually got “liberated” by Lenin. These were to see independence again after the final collapse of Soviet Union. In the process of “liberating” all these countries that Lenin had given their independence, some 15 million people died.
Stalin continued the work after Lenin died and finally managed to take the Baltic States too. Only one country, of all those countries that gained independence from the collapsed Czarist Russia, survived the evil plans of Lenin and Stalin. That country is Finland.
So much for your hero Lenin and his gracious allowing of Finnish independence.
Jaska
September 7, 2010
Enrique: “Even though Finns fought heroically in the Winter War, they forget to mention that possible French and English entry into the war against the Soviet Union to defend Finland made Stalin sign a peace accord. It was not all done alone. International help and cooperation are very important.”
That´s not true since Stalin knew that Norway and Sweden wouldn´t give passage to any troops. The size of the supposed Anglo-French helping force, mere infantry brigade, was known to Stalin at the time so it didn´t scare him. He also knew that France and Great Britain weren´t serious and didn´t want to risk to go to war against both Soviet Union and Nazi Germany as they were allied at the time.
So Stalin had to seek peace because his attack had failed and his armies were beaten.
The only international help Finland got was some old and mainly obsolete war material and small numbers of volunteers mainly from Scandinavia. I do agree, international help and co-operation would have helped.
Enrique
September 7, 2010
–“So you think your grand daddy did that. If things like that would be left to him, you would not exist! We know all your history. Please dont make such a hero of yourselves.
Alien forgot to mention that the Baltic States also became independent that way. Lenin did not believe in exporting communist revolution but that the workers of that country should create it. Therefore when Finland became independent it had to create its own socialist revolution, which it tried to in the 1918 civil war.
Enrique
September 7, 2010
–That´s not true since Stalin knew that Norway and Sweden wouldn´t give passage to any troops.
Sorry to disappoint you, Jaska. Please take a look at some history books and you will find out how important the possible entry of France and England in the conflict weighed on Stalin’s decision to end the war. It would have changed history and the face of World War 2. How do you think Adolf Hitler would have benefited from such a situation? What a horrible world we’d live in if the Nazis would have somewhow survived. The author of this blog and many who participate in this blog would probably end up in a concentration camp.
–The size of the supposed Anglo-French helping force, mere infantry brigade, was known to Stalin at the time so it didn´t scare him.
What scared him was the mere entry of England and France in the conflict.
–So Stalin had to seek peace because his attack had failed and his armies were beaten.
Finland’s army was effectively defeated and it was only a question of time when the Red Army would rout the Finns. The Mannerheim Line had been busted and the best battles fought. For Finland the war was effectively over militarily. The Soviets had learned from their mistakes. Sheer size and military might was now the crucial factor in spring 1940.
Tiwaz
September 7, 2010
“1- Change is the nature of the evolution, you dont like it you will turn into problems. That includes me, you and finland. the moment we stop to change, that is when we are dead.”
Problem with your egoistic attitude is that you think others have to change to fit YOU. But you only have to change as you please.
That is why you are an ass who could not make it in Finland which is thankfully not bendoveristan known as Sweden.
“2- What is wrong with critisizing? Indeed nothing. and that is my point. If you have any thing against it, we are happy to hear it.”
Your criticism is just you trying to inflate your already overblown ego. You offer nothinc constructive, just whine how Finns did not bend over for you.
“3- I am not living in finland. I left that mental hospital some years ago. And yes I am very adopable. I live in Sweden. I found it a country which deserve to be named a land of oportunities.”
It is country where police and ambulances are afraid to go to certain areas of towns, where there are riots and all that “goodness” brought by multiculturalism.
I’m betting swedes will soon be begging to come to Finland.
You left Finland because you were not appeased.
xyz
September 7, 2010
You offer nothinc constructive, just whine how Finns did not bend over for you.
-And what do you offer Tiwaz?
alien
September 7, 2010
Tiwaz:
….
1-Problem with your egoistic attitude is that you think others have to change to fit YOU. But you only have to change as you please.
…
Change in this context means have an humane look upon immigrants, and not criminals.
….
2-Your criticism is just you trying to inflate your already overblown ego. You offer nothinc constructive, just whine how Finns did not bend over for you.
….
I know my ego(arrogance) is like a pain in your ass. I cannot help it. We dont beg pigs. Why should I when my abilities are doing the job. You poor bustard should trample the very same laws and constitution to stand one man’s ego. SO fuck you and your country again.
And asshole, in 10 years the Somalian dont critisize you like us in web sites, they make hamburger out of your flesh in Helsinki streets.
…
It is country(Sweden) where police and ambulances are afraid to go to certain areas of towns, where there are riots and all that “goodness” brought by multiculturalism.
…
Total paranoid. Now who is Svensson? You say that Sweds are bendingover, coward, scared, and all those BS. Now who is really aidinpoika?
…
I’m betting swedes will soon be begging to come to Finland.
…
Dont be worry, it does not look that 1 million of Finns in Sweden decided to go anywhere. If what you saying would be close to truth you would know it. Because when the ship is sinking, the ratts are the first who leave the wreck. So you would see bunch of the drunks and asshole back to isamaa!
Jaska
September 7, 2010
Enrique, you have really an odd and twisted view of history. I don´t know where you got all those ideas, but they sound like something from official Soviet historybooks. I´m beginning to suspect you of communist sympathies for spreading lies and minimizing the horrors of communism.
“Alien forgot to mention that the Baltic States also became independent that way. Lenin did not believe in exporting communist revolution but that the workers of that country should create it. Therefore when Finland became independent it had to create its own socialist revolution, which it tried to in the 1918 civil war.”
You sound like a real good komsomol repeating that official communist mantra. The Finnish “socialist revolution” was incited, led, funded and equipped by Lenin. How hard is it to understand that? “Lenin did not believe in…” That didn´t stop him from “exporting” the horrors by his Red Army to a dozen countries between the Baltic and Caspian.
“Finland’s army was effectively defeated and it was only a question of time when the Red Army would rout the Finns. The Mannerheim Line had been busted and the best battles fought. For Finland the war was effectively over militarily.”
That just isn´t true. By the end of the fighting, The Finnish losses we´re around 70 000. The losses of Soviet Union were around 350 – 400 000. The Soviet forces were beaten, the casualties were extremely high, the loss of military equipment almost irreplaceable. The morale had sunk and the spring thaw was coming, making Soviet offensives practically impossible. More than 1/3 of all Soviet troops and over 70% of the Soviet Air Force were concentrated on the Finnish Front and the situation was bogged down. The planned occupation and sovietization of Finland had failed.
These were simply the reasons why Stalin decided to end the fighting. Not because he was kind enought to settle for some piece of land he had no use or the unrealistic fear of some minimal Anglo-French force that was never coming.
xyz
September 7, 2010
Wiki should know it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Peace_Treaty
Tiwaz
September 13, 2010
Alien again making an ass of himself:
-”Change in this context means have an humane look upon immigrants, and not criminals.”
Humane? In what way they are NOT being looked upon humanely? They get all the rights and privileges granted by law to everyone.
It is again IMMIGRANT failure which you whine about. No jobs? Yes, that is because you have no useful SKILLS to offer.
Learn Finnish, learn something useful, prosper. Been done by quite a few people in the past. It is your own egoist attitude that you are entitled to preferential treatment which makes you fail.
-”I know my ego(arrogance) is like a pain in your ass. I cannot help it. We dont beg pigs.”
Why would you when you are one?
You are the pig and animal out of two of us.
-”Why should I when my abilities are doing the job. You poor bustard should trample the very same laws and constitution to stand one man’s ego. SO fuck you and your country again.”
Except you clearly have no abilities. I see lots of COMPETENT immigrants doing fine in Finland. Except they had the brains, unlike you who only have inflated ego.
-”And asshole, in 10 years the Somalian dont critisize you like us in web sites, they make hamburger out of your flesh in Helsinki streets.”
And here we have another proof of multiculturalism being failure. One of you “enriching” immigrants stating how you and your kin will start violence if you are permitted.
In 10 years, if somalians start trouble they will be whacked down.
-”Total paranoid. Now who is Svensson? You say that Sweds are bendingover, coward, scared, and all those BS. Now who is really aidinpoika? ”
Reality. Google “Malmö” and “riots”.
-”Dont be worry, it does not look that 1 million of Finns in Sweden decided to go anywhere. If what you saying would be close to truth you would know it. Because when the ship is sinking, the ratts are the first who leave the wreck. So you would see bunch of the drunks and asshole back to isamaa! ”
And you idiot do not even know how to read. 1 million Finns? Source for that?
At BEST you can get up to 470 000 of them. But imbecile like you can’t apparently even google.
And out of that half a million most could not pass for Finn even if they tried.
And you just admitted that Sweden is a sinking ship due to multiculturalism. Good that at least one of you multiculturalists has some shred of honesty.
xyz
September 13, 2010
Mr. Angry is back
Tiwaz
September 13, 2010
Mr. Reality is back, since you guys clearly cannot figure it out without someone spelling it clearly.
Sadly, it is true that all it takes for evil (multiculturalism) to win is that good guys (realists) do nothing.
Thus it is my unfortunate lot to come here and beat the stupidity back every once in a while for my own part.
xyz
September 13, 2010
I think all the different nationalities working with me here in my office are also reality? Or maybe it’s just imagination
Tiwaz
September 13, 2010
Do everyone a favor and return when you actually have some real argument in favor of multiculturalism.
By the way, I hear Ireland is in for some rough times. You know, disfunctional economy and all that.
Any money Ireland has to borrow comes with ever higher interests. While for Finland, being reliable one, interests have dropped.
xyz
September 13, 2010
My real argument for multiculturalism is that it makes life more exciting and you can get new ideas from other nationalities which you can also implement at work.
My company makes a lot of money even so the economy in Ireland has hard times. What should I say about Helsinki? 80% youth unemployment. You think this is better?
xyz
September 13, 2010
Immigrants in Germany create around 150.000 Jobs:
http://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/dihk108.html
Enrique
September 13, 2010
–Mr. Reality is back, since you guys clearly cannot figure it out without someone spelling it clearly.
You are a riot, Tiwaz! A barrel of laughs. Do you actually believe everything you say? I doubt it. Then you would be Mr. Surreal, Mr. Rage, Mr. Rude and some other characters I’d prefer not to name.
Klay_Immigrant
September 13, 2010
-’My real argument for multiculturalism is that it makes life more exciting and you can get new ideas from other nationalities which you can also implement at work.’
Is that really the best argument you can come up with for multiculturalism? One man’s excitement is another man’s nightmare. Think of roller coasters. Purely subjective and based on opinion. In today’s world with globilization and transfer of data, ideas from different countries can be implemented without the need of workers of that nationality. We don’t live in the 1950′s you know.
-’What should I say about Helsinki? 80% youth unemployment’
I have to correct you here xyz. You got that stat from that interesting video you posted a week or two back. It said Helsinki’s youth unemployment HAS INCREASED BY 80% not that it was 80%. Big difference and that’s not too unusual in today’s economic climate. Surely you counldn’t have believed 4 out of 5 people under 25 years was unemployed in Helsinki. That level is on par with Robert Mugabe’s paradise country of Zimbabwe.
xyz
September 13, 2010
In today’s world with globilization and transfer of data, ideas from different countries can be implemented without the need of workers of that nationality.
-You have an interesting view of a globalized world. What have you done in all the countries you have lived before. Permanent tourist?
Helsinki’s youth unemployment HAS INCREASED BY 80%
-Should I open a bottle of champaign now? Increase of 80% doesn’t sound good either.
Klay_Immigrant
September 13, 2010
The way I see it, Finland, Japan, and South Korea are the only developed industrialised countries where this disease they call multiculturalism has not spread to. They are kind of like the final frontier.
It has been shown that multiculuralism has negative effects on crime, unemployment, social cohesion, race relations, welfare, health care and education to list a few. That doesn’t mean no immigrants should be allowed. In Finland’s case there is the EU open borders.
Believe it or not I’m not against immigrants, if a country recruits the correct type of foreigner that it needs in small numbers and integrates them with a policy of cultural assimilation, then that could reap huge rewards for both parties concerned.
This whole debate reminds me of what it must have been like in the 1960′s during the cold war in respect to which political system works best, capitalism or communism. Decades later that was comprehensively answered and I believe the same will apply with multiculturalism. But the difference is by that stage the damage would been done and the effects of multiculturalism for those countries cannot be reversed.
Enrique
September 13, 2010
–The way I see it, Finland, Japan, and South Korea are the only developed industrialised countries where this disease they call multiculturalism has not spread to.
If you read closely the history of Canada, where multiculturalism began in the early 1980s, it played an important role in keeping the country from splitting up. If you look at Britain you will find the answer in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Tiwaz
September 14, 2010
-”You are a riot, Tiwaz! A barrel of laughs. Do you actually believe everything you say? I doubt it. Then you would be Mr. Surreal, Mr. Rage, Mr. Rude and some other characters I’d prefer not to name.”
I do not need to believe, because my position is supported by facts Mr. Deluded. Yours is one which is painted in clouds with pink shades and pretty dreams.
And then you peddle them to others with lies and half-truts as we have seen with buddhist temple issue, “controversial documentary” issue and rest. Mr Liar.
-”If you read closely the history of Canada, where multiculturalism began in the early 1980s, it played an important role in keeping the country from splitting up.”
Source? Quebec remains part of Canada because it is unviable as independent nation and because most French speakers are assimilated to Canadian culture.
What multiculturalism HAS done for Canada, multiculturalism as in adding totally different cultures from ME etc, is increase of crime and social problems.
Great track record!
-”If you look at Britain you will find the answer in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.”
Ah, peaceful and tranquil NI. No wait, area of some of the worst bloodshed in Europe since WW2.
Scotland where there is still desire for independence (but not coming for same reasons as with Quebec) and Wales which is boondocks of Britain.
England in turn is steadily declining with misery and rot spreading from London and other major cities in form of multiculturalism. Native Britons feeling uncomfortable and alien in their own native land.
It is just like indians all over again, except this time Europeans just have not yet summoned will to fight for their homes. Which is all for the better for immigrants, becaus unlike indiands… Europeans have the guns.
-”My company makes a lot of money even so the economy in Ireland has hard times. What should I say about Helsinki? 80% youth unemployment. You think this is better?”
80% increase. Again multiculturalists are lying! What a surprise.
My company makes lots of money too, and this is in Finland!
But as whole, Finland is succeeding and economy is getting upramp. Economy which was built by Finns without need of others.
Ireland on other hand built it’s economy with EU subsidiaries, receiving huge amounts of cash for years.
Which country is better example for rest of the world?
One which made it’s own success with it’s own means (Finland), or one which can only make temporary success if it finds others to pay for it(Ireland)?
xyz
September 14, 2010
What multiculturalism HAS done for Canada, multiculturalism as in adding totally different cultures from ME etc, is increase of crime and social problems.
-And why do you think your own culture is the only way how people should live? Canada is an immigrant country and thus multicultural. I suppose you have never been there.
80% increase. Again multiculturalists are lying! What a surprise.
-Watch the video I have posted.
Which country is better example for rest of the world?
One which made it’s own success with it’s own means (Finland), or one which can only make temporary success if it finds others to pay for it(Ireland)?
-To which countries does Finland export mainly? Russia, Germany? If they don’t do well then Finland is also not doing well.
Ireland on other hand built it’s economy with EU subsidiaries, receiving huge amounts of cash for years.
-I don’t know what your problem is with Ireland. I work for an international company. We have offices worldwide. In Ireland we have our EU headquater. And as it happens we have people from all over Europe working here.
Tiwaz
September 14, 2010
-”And why do you think your own culture is the only way how people should live? Canada is an immigrant country and thus multicultural. I suppose you have never been there.”
Ah, who am I? Well, real question is who are YOU or Enrique and rest of you whiners to tell how we Finns should live in our native land. It is not land of immigrants, never has been and never will.
Yet you foreigners whine and demand that we must appease you. And then present cases like Canada to “prove” how we must live like that as well.
-”To which countries does Finland export mainly? Russia, Germany? If they don’t do well then Finland is also not doing well. ”
And Ireland is somehow immune to this issue in what way?
Considering that Ireland is considered by many not to be in just recession but depression, and that Ireland has debt which is over 800% of it’s GDP I would not say anything about Finland not doing well, considering those issues are not present in Finland.
-”I don’t know what your problem is with Ireland. I work for an international company. We have offices worldwide. In Ireland we have our EU headquater. And as it happens we have people from all over Europe working here.”
I have nothing against Ireland. You are the one who keeps saying how great place it is. I am simply pointing out that Ireland economically is a bubble which is right now bursting.
So while you may like Ireland, it is definitely solution which is NOT worthy of imitating as it is failing.
xyz
September 14, 2010
I am working for an American company. We have offices worldwide. If I don’t like Ireland anymore I go somewhere else. So far I like it here. And if I am really fed up I just go home. We have an unemployment rate of 4% where I come from (Finland has 9%).
Ah, who am I? Well, real question is who are YOU or Enrique and rest of you whiners to tell how we Finns should live in our native land. It is not land of immigrants, never has been and never will.
-If you want my Finnish girlfriend can give you a call Mr Native.
Enrique
September 14, 2010
–Ah, who am I? Well, real question is who are YOU or Enrique and rest of you…
I blog with my real name. I do so because I stand by what I say and accept certain rules of the game like not using the “f” word to insult others.
Jaska
September 14, 2010
About this Canada-thing of yours, Enrique. Was there any indigenous people who formed majority of the inhabitants of the country or a monoculture before it was transformed into an immigrants or multiculturalists paradise? If so, then what happened to that people or culture after the transformation?
Enrique
September 14, 2010
Hi Jaska, the three big groups were the Engligh, French and First Nations people. During 1924-65 Canada was a pretty closed nation to immigration. Chinese immigrants, for example, were allowed to migrate to the country until after World War 2. To make a long story short, biculturalism (English- and French-speakers) gave way to multiculturalism. Other groups also wanted cultural recognition as well, hence multiculturalism. Apart from a social policy that aims to give Canadians cultural equality and recognition, it also played an important role in keepiing Canada from splitting into two countries.
Jaska
September 14, 2010
Thank you for the answer, Enrique. So, tell me Enrique, what happened to the original canadians, the indians. How they felt in the past about the mass immigration of the english and french and how they feel about the multiculturalism nowdays? How many representatives do they have in the cabinet, in the house of commons or as a minister?
Enrique
September 15, 2010
–How many representatives do they have in the cabinet, in the house of commons or as a minister?
Good question, Jaska.
Tiwaz
September 16, 2010
-”I blog with my real name. I do so because I stand by what I say and accept certain rules of the game like not using the “f” word to insult others.”
Boo hoo.
How about accepting following rules and my respect for you will skyrocket and I might reduce amount of “f” words.
1) Fair and EQUAL approach on everything.
That means that if you bitch to me about using nick to protect my privacy, you bith to xyz, alien, JusticeDemon and rest.
That means that if something is not proven to be racist, it is not until it is proven.
Hearsay is not proof.
2) Every claim you present you present some supporting proof or accept that it is not fact but opinion.
3)Stop using the nazi-card. It is old and unimaginative.
You improve your output and I shall endeavor to improve mine. Deal?
xyz:
-I am working for an American company. We have offices worldwide. If I don’t like Ireland anymore I go somewhere else. So far I like it here. And if I am really fed up I just go home. We have an unemployment rate of 4% where I come from (Finland has 9%).
And this is relevant how? I did not like UK, I left. But you do not see me whinig and bitching how UK was so bad. I accept it was not a place for me, but that does not mean to me that I should start whining that others, some of whom were quite happy there, should have appeased me.
YOU on the other hand are whining little bitch who cannot accept that others want to live in societies which are not like those where you want to live.
YOU want to impose your own values to me, demanding appeasement.
-If you want my Finnish girlfriend can give you a call Mr Native.
Your imaginary girlfriend can call all she wants. She is still in the minority, I am in the majority.
As proven by whole lot of polls all over Finland AND steady increase in immigration/multiculturalism criticism/critics.
And in democracy, majority decides.
Enrique
September 16, 2010
–3)Stop using the nazi-card. It is old and unimaginative.
Do the horrors of that period, deeply entrenched by eugenics and racism, frighten you? When you read history will you see yourself? You are probably familiar with Rolf Nordenstreng’s and Eugene Fischer’s work and could find a good academic pseudo-soul mate in them. Remember what you said once about a group? If you invite them to coffee it is a call to be raped? It is in the same vein of thought as Nordenstreng’s and Fischer’s work.
Tiwaz
September 16, 2010
-”Do the horrors of that period, deeply entrenched by eugenics and racism, frighten you? When you read history will you see yourself? You are probably familiar with Rolf Nordenstreng’s and Eugene Fischer’s work and could find a good academic pseudo-soul mate in it. Remember what you said once about a group? If you invite them to coffee it is a call to be raped? It is in the same vein of thought as Nordenstreng’s and Fischer’s work.”
Nazis have more in common with you than me, you are the guy who wants to enforce his disfunctional worldview on others who do not want it.
Nazi-card is old and pointless because it is idiotic, you and many others try to treat it as some kind of automatic “IWIN”-button. Just scream “Nazi” and you think you have somehow presented credible argument.
Newsflash, you haven’t. Screaming “Nazi” is as ineffective and pointless as screaming “Teletubby”.
When I read history I see nazis commit atrocities. But then I look at multicultural nations and see equal amount of atrocities. Balkan, Somalia, Iraq… List of attempts to force different and incompatible cultures to fit the same space just goes on and on.
If you have no valid argument, do not pretend playing nazi-card is one you nazi. (You are more of a nazi than I am, you share racism towards those who do not think like you do and use of lies to justify your racism. Parallels are clear in your argument on buddhist temple and justification nazis used to invade Poland)
Enrique
September 16, 2010
This is exactly what some people who are racist do: they blame their victims for their crimes. It is an old method that does not work.
–Nazi-card is old and pointless because it is idiotic, you and many others try to treat it as some kind of automatic “IWIN”-button. Just scream “Nazi” and you think you have somehow presented credible argument.
What happened in Nazi Germany is one of the grimmest reminders of our barbarity and potential in this respect. No other group killed so many people systematically. There were also others like in Stalin’s Soviet Union, Pol Pot etc. But NONE came close to the Nazi killing machines. Think about it, because people had a boloney view of their “racial superiority” they took the whole world into a global war that killed millions of people. If that isn’t a gruesome reminder of the potential of racism, I do not know what is.
In order to acquaint myself with the crimes of Nazi Germany, I started reading about the Nuremberg Trials and the other ones. So the barbarity of the Nazi Germans overwhelmed and wiped them off the map. If we do not watch out, it will end up devouring us.
alien
September 16, 2010
Enrique:
You have a great writing style. Not only that but your argument is supported by scientific and historic facts. I also believe that you treat the problems far from a personal matters and try to address important though complicated issues. I really enjoy reading your posts and I try to learn from you.
I guess the point you mentioned regarding “eugenics” and racism is more than crystal clear. The quotes like the following:
“….And out of that half a million most could not pass for Finn even if they tried.”
Or when he has a pure sexist look even when he tries to insult others like the one below:
“……… in Finland which is thankfully not bendoveristan known as Sweden.” He uses the word “bent over”!!!
And when this guy thinks that he is the savior of Finland, realist, wiser than the rest, and extreme view about some thing that he does not like, such as Multi-culture society, so much that he calls it “Evil”. The following quotes shows that all:
“Mr. Reality is back, since you guys clearly cannot figure it out without someone spelling it clearly.
Sadly, it is true that all it takes for evil (multiculturalism) to win is that good guys (realists) do nothing.
Thus it is my unfortunate lot to come here and beat the stupidity back every once in a while for my own part.”
All these symptoms shows that this guy is deeply troubled. Indeed Nazis in Germany, Polpot in Cambodia, Stalin in Russia, they are so obsessed with their ideas which makes them not to see or hear any thing but what they like.
This obsession is supported by deep complexes which has its roots in social, economic issues showing itself as ethnic or national problems. As a example, there has been a strong new Nazi movement in Germany stemmed from the East part of the country where it was under the Soviet rule for some decades and is a result of such a complex. In Finland also, the fact that Sweden has ruled over 700 hundreds in that country and then Russians, some how has been a source of a complex which shows its dimension in Ultr-nationalism in which even some Finns don’t pass for a Finn, let alone the immigrants.
I guess this web-site is of great importance not only to the immigrants, but also in helping the Finn to see themselves and find out their coordinations.
Thank you Enrique for such a good job.
Enrique
September 16, 2010
Thank you Alien for those kind words. This blog will with the help of the readers we can continue to make this blog grow and become a voice of our community.
Tiwaz
September 16, 2010
What is that community?
We have many immigrants here who speak against you. Willie, Tony etc.
And then in one of those forums xyz has apparently sought for there are more immigrants who hold you in contempt.
You represent small, loud and annoying minority who demand appeasement because they cannot accept that they have to change to fit the society, not opposite.
Enrique
September 16, 2010
Tiwaz, if you represented the “majority” you would not hide in anonymity. You do so because (1) you could get in trouble for insulting and defamation of character, (2) many of the thing and concepts you have are racist and (3) you rage.
All these three things could get you in trouble with the law. Remember, when you harrass people and insult them on this blog, it is no different from a public place with real people.
Tiwaz
September 16, 2010
-”Tiwaz, if you represented the “majority” you would not hide in anonymity. You do so because (1) you could get in trouble for insulting and defamation of character, (2) many of the thing and concepts you have are racist and (3) you rage.”
No, real reason are sick indidivuals like xyz trying to dig out my personal information and using it to physically attack or harass me or my family outside this blog.
And it is a fact that such actions can happen, as it has been pointed in your very own blog where group of immigrant background people used “hearing racist talk” as excuse to attack a Finn.
And taking into account how certain immigrant group has in the past in Europe murdered or made threats to murder people who have in their view “insulted” them.
“All these three things could get you in trouble with the law. Remember, when you harrass people and insult them on this blog, it is no different from a public place with real people.”
So can your twisting of facts and lies. You are no less guilty of insults than I. You are one who is proclaiming Finns as racists, taking advantage of lies and falsehoods.
Tiwaz
September 16, 2010
As for your rather pathetic attempt to paint me as racist, that is again another of your lies.
I have repeatedly stated here what is my position, but let’s rephrase it again.
Immigrants adjust to society they move into. No matter where immigrant comes and what society they move into.
If you do not act like part of community, do not expect to be accepted as part of that community.
If you cannot fulfill requirements set by employer, do not expect to be employed. And everyone must have EXACT same requirements to be accepted into job.
I hold both immigrants and Finns to same standards. I am indeed the very opposite of racist, I accept and embrace everyone who wants to come to Finland, adjust to live in Finland as it is and wants to build a better Finland.
I wish Tony was my neighbor, I would love to have bbq with him and talk crap. I would be thrilled to hang around with Willie.
What I do not tolerate is someone coming to Finland and starting to demand special attention or that me as native must adjust to his/her cultural needs.
xyz
September 23, 2010
No, real reason are sick indidivuals like xyz trying to dig out my personal information and using it to physically attack or harass me or my family outside this blog.
-Every child can search for “Tiwaz + Forum” in Google. What reason should I have to attack you or your family?
xyz
September 23, 2010
“At the heart of racism is the religious assertion that God made a creative mistake when He brought some people into being”
Friedrich Otto Hertz
Enrique
September 23, 2010
Well said, the quote by Hertz.
Tiwaz
September 24, 2010
-”Every child can search for “Tiwaz + Forum” in Google. What reason should I have to attack you or your family?”
You being sick little individual. Guess if I have bothered to google you anywhere? Answer is no.
What if I was not careful in preventing personal information from leaking to Internet… You would be apparently trying to dig my name, address and perhaps phone number and publish it in this blog to make sure every racist immigrant could take advantage of that information to harass me and my family for daring to stand up against rot called multiculturalism and having balls to call black black.
I again point out the hypocrisy of Enrique in his attitudes towards posters in this blog. I have hard time believing that your name is “xyz”, yet how many times we see Enrique demanding that you publish your own personal information into this blog?
xyz
September 24, 2010
I will come to Helsinki next week. If you want you can meet me there for a cup of tea. You can also bring a security guy if you feel insecure
jehu manu
September 24, 2010
all italians should keep quiet and never say anything about what sort of racial abuse they face in other countries because they are treating us(africans)worst here.the castel voltuno killing and the rosarno incident are examples.theyshould shut up cos they are not different from the rest.europe is europe.
Enrique
September 24, 2010
Hi jehu manu, and welcome to Migrant Tales. In all countries there are all types. Some Italians, like Silvio Berlusconi’s government, has had an atrocious record when it comes to racism. Check out the Liga Nord and the countless statements by Berlusconi. Even though France deported EU citizens like the Roma, the Italians have been doing this before. Could you tell us, if you wish, more about the Castel Volutno killing? Thanks and we look forward to hearing how things are in Italy.
Erik
October 3, 2010
Hello…
First of all I’m not living in Finland but I’m just curious about the integration part. Seems that a lot of Finns here are making the excuse of integration to cover their racism.
How would you define integration? Why asking? Because I’ve read of many cases where the “victim” was speaking PERFECTLY Finnish and behaving like a Finn would do. How you recognize who IS integrated and who is not? I mean if you would see a black guy in public you would still avoid/accuse/swear/beat him no matter how he speaks or how he behaves. I’ve heard cases when somebody was seeking for job via phone and was speaking perfectly Finnish in the beginning was receiving positive feedback and once the employer figured out he was foreigner he would immediately cut him down.
Please explain to me this integration of yours because I fucking fail to understand about what kind of integration you are referring to? Care to explain how one is supposed to integrate when despite all his efforts to do that he is simply being rejected by the society.
You know what it’s fine, I could understand better the whole thing if you would simply say: “FUCK YOU, I AM A RACIST YOU LIKE IT OR NOT. AND I AM NOT GOING TO CHANGE… SO FUCK OFF AND LEAVE THIS COUNTRY”
Damn I would understand it.
PS: Sorry for the inappropriate words but that’s not the point, I just had to express myself better
Enrique
October 3, 2010
Hi Erik, I think you have made your point loud and clear. That came from the heart and that is, unfortuantely, what some think even though they play this “integration” game.
Tiwaz
October 5, 2010
-”First of all I’m not living in Finland but I’m just curious about the integration part. Seems that a lot of Finns here are making the excuse of integration to cover their racism. ”
Sounds like you have no idea of what is going on but you are still putting out lots of your own personal brand of racism.
-”How would you define integration? Why asking? Because I’ve read of many cases where the “victim” was speaking PERFECTLY Finnish and behaving like a Finn would do.”
Read from where? Who is saying they speak perfect Finnish or acting like Finns would?
Who is saying they have cultural ability to “read” people?
-”I’ve heard cases when somebody was seeking for job via phone and was speaking perfectly Finnish in the beginning was receiving positive feedback and once the employer figured out he was foreigner he would immediately cut him down.”
“I have read”, “I have heard”. Yeah, and I have heard that the Moon is made out of cheese!
What this hearsay have in common?
Lack of verification. You make accusations but do not back them up with anything.
I have heard that immigrants are racists who eat babies! Really I have!
Behold the power of unverified accusations!
Bring forth evidence and we can discuss.
-”Please explain to me this integration of yours because I fucking fail to understand about what kind of integration you are referring to? Care to explain how one is supposed to integrate when despite all his efforts to do that he is simply being rejected by the society. ”
Learn language, learn the culture. Live according to culture in public.
We have lots of immigrants here telling how they have not had issues in fitting into Finnish community.
Hell, same for the other forums I visit. BLACK man from UK appears to have no issues getting a nice job in Finland.
But then again, these are people who actually have bothered to understand that they have to have something useful to offer.
They have useful skills, they accept that they must adjust to situation around them.. They are smart.
Whiners are generally idiots who do not want to work hard to make themselves useful.
chad
October 9, 2010
Get a life people!
So what some Finnish people prefer their country to be Finnish and not approve of the hordes of immigrants who move to Finland and other white countries, stripping it of its culture and identity and turn the place into a violent multiculutural cesspool shoving white guilt down the throats of the Finnish people.
Do you people find it unacceptable that there is rea white nations on earth who do not want mass immigration into their land? if you do find that unacceptable then YOU are the racist one!
Its THEIR LAND AND THEY CAN HAVE THEIR CIVILIZATION the way they want it, its not hurting anybody that they want to preserve their culture and keep their country the way it is. Immigration benefits nobody but the immigrants who flood into white nations seeking a better life, taking the jobs and then complaining at the end of the day that all their problems are the result of wide spread Finnish racism WHAT AN ABSOLUTE JOKE! Instead of pointing the finger at the innocent general Finnish public, why dont you all whine and bitch about how other non-white countries are racist like japan etc that find white immigrants to be disgusting. All these people commenting on this page are bitter non-white immigrants who blame the general Finnish public for not being able to fit in.
As i said get a bloody life!
You can keep whining and complaining about non-existent nation-wide racism, but it doesn’t change anything. Ever thought you non-white immigrants need to learn how to adapt to a nations way of life instead of them adapting to you individuals? This is beyond pathetic. Talk about ungrateful, disrespectful and unwilling to adapt to their way of life. Makes me sick.
I know hundreds of Finnish people and there isnt a shared sense of racism among them. Its all created by you immigrants who arent satisfied because you cant fit in and then result to using the “race” card.
Enrique
October 9, 2010
chad,I think your comments are quite odd coming especially from a person who lives in New Zealand. If you are not a Moari, you or your grandparents, great grandparents were immigrants. Why did “white” immigrants come to New Zealand? What are you doing there? Aren’t you a massive burden on society, or former ones, because of your immigrant past?
chad
October 9, 2010
Enrique, thanks for trying to reveal my location which is private but im Actually not from New Zealand, i am using a private proxy server from there. Why dont you just reveal my IP address to everyone while you are at it?
Whites are not a burden to New Zealand society, whites are the ones who created the civilization that is called New Zealand today.
I am simply trying to say that perhaps the problems do not lie with the general Finnish public and that the problem is that immigrants arent able to fully adapt and blame their hardships on “racism” and play the race card
You say with total certainty that if someone experiences any of these things in a foreign country they are a victim of racism right?
”
6) A Finn treats me too nicely
7) Finns are distrustful of me
8 Finns are usually watching over me at work (I have to be twice as good as a Finn)
9) If I make a mistake, it’s a bigger deal than normal
10) In a debate, I always know less than a Finn”
Did you ever think that perhaps its your personality and NOT RACE that is having Finnish people treat you like those points state?.
You think its bad that fins “treat you to nicely” They can never win can they? First you are upset with their anti-social behavior towards you but now your complaining they are “too nice”? PLEASE CMON
“10) In a debate, I always know less than a Finn”
Maybe you do know less then a fin when it comes to their culture, heritage, policies and way of life? you cant assume somebody is racist because of these things that arent even race related its just human nature and basic social interaction. I can assure you if you migrate to any non-white countries you will experience the same things, and the truth is Finland is not generally racist. Perhaps You need to learn to adapt. It sounds like you are masking your insecurity in a different country and blaming it all on non-existent Finnish racism. you dont exactly get called a nigger by every 2nd person walking down the road do you?
This thread is ironically racist towards Finnish people, implying they are all narrow minded racists when they are just trying to get on with their lives. You have been granted residency in Finland and have been welcomed into their land what more do you want? to be worshiped? its up to you to fit in, it comes with the territory (literally).
There is nothing worse then a person who plays the race card and blames white people for all their problems. Finnish people are peaceful and focus on their families and loved ones. IN NO WAY WHAT SO EVER IS THERE DEEP ROOTED RACISM GOING ON SECRETLY WITHIN THE FINNISH PUBLIC.
Enrique
October 9, 2010
–Whites are not a burden to New Zealand society, whites are the ones who created the civilization that is called New Zealand today.
Right. So it is ok for “whites” to colonize/emigrate to any country they wish but other cultures should not. And the reason? Civilization? Yeah like World War I and 2, slave trade to begin with, right?
Have you been to Finland?
Enrique
October 9, 2010
–I am simply trying to say that perhaps the problems do not lie with the general Finnish public and that the problem is that immigrants arent able to fully adapt and blame their hardships on “racism” and play the race card.
Yes, we have heard this argument a lot of times. Try a more imaginative explanation.
By the way, Are you a target of racism in Finland has about 14,000 hits and over 1,000 comments. So don’t knock it, ok?
Tiwaz
October 12, 2010
-”Yes, we have heard this argument a lot of times. Try a more imaginative explanation. ”
Have you managed to disprove it?
No, you just try to pretend you have because you know that it is actually true.
Immigrants who cannot face problems have two options.
First is hard… You have to learn to live in Finland according to local norms. It is hard, really hard and laborous way with rewards distant in future.
Second is easy. Cry racism and pretend all your problems can be blamed on someone else. You will get nowhere, but at least now you can act the part of victim.
Enrique
October 12, 2010
Tiwaz, do you know what maassa maan tavalla means? It means a lazy, opportunistic idea based on chance and fantasy that I do not have to do anything because everyone will adapt to me. It is not only reckless but shows how little some people understand what immigration is.
Tiwaz
October 12, 2010
Clearly you do not know what it means.
It means that you, as an immigrant, adjust to existing society. You do NOT start demanding that rest adjust to you.
You really should learn to understand concepts you use since you make an ass of yourself.
And yes, you foreigners adapt to me, as Finn, in Finland. Because we are in FINLAND and I, not you, am native.
Were I to come to your country of origin, opposite would be true.
xyz
October 12, 2010
Honestly, I don’t feel like transforming into a Tiwaz
Tiwaz
October 12, 2010
So live someplace else. Don’t expect me, native, to change my home to make it more comfortable for you.
Find someplace where you are at home without demanding it to change to fit you, and behold! We all happily have what we want.
I and other Finns have our cozy and happy Finland.
You can have whatever it is you want.
xyz
October 12, 2010
My Fiancée is Finnish too
Anton
October 21, 2010
I can tale you im apart of a finnish minority swedish speaking finns. Some people are racist twards me so..? Ive nearly gotten my assbeated several times for it… So i dont Care iknow that people like that are stupid so i ignore them.. I can just tell the people that say that Finland is rasist go denmark try it there it has the highest population of neo-nazis in scandinavia. And btw iv’e only seen a fewsmart things written in this whole long complainment blogg
Anton
October 21, 2010
Tell* assbeaten* i just came back to say when you guys say we should get over the wars that happened have you come to think that there are still many people alive from the war and we just want to honor them by remembering… And i still think people that have used our hospitals, schools
Anton
October 21, 2010
Etc. Should not complain cause they are great and they work grately
Tuukka H.
October 22, 2010
I have a suggestion for everyone who participates in this discussion:
locate an online conversation (preferably one that rivals this one for sheer length) whose purpose is criticizing your country.
Read through it. For hours.
Now, we finns have it quite easy, we can suffer through our share right here. Everyone else, though… if you wish to criticize, you should also hear how others have criticized your culture.
Maybe the sadness, hurt and sense of unfairness you might feel at hearing strangers slander your people will help you understand some of the responses finns have given here.
(If a similar point has already been raised, apologies for the repetition. After about four hours of reading through this I only made it from the beginning to the end of 2008.)
Enrique
October 22, 2010
Hi Tuukka H, that is A LOT of reading. This post, Are you a victim of racism in Finland, has got the most hits and comments in Migrant Tales. I am certain you could find blogs that have more threads than this one. The issues are only different. For some reason, some foreigners and Finns are lured to this post.
alien
October 23, 2010
Tuukka said:
“I have a suggestion for everyone who participates in this discussion:
locate an online conversation (preferably one that rivals this one for sheer length) whose purpose is criticizing your country.
Read through it. For hours.
”
Well, I myself criticize my political system in my country. Not only criticize but I have tried to change it to a better one. So at least I as an immigrant believe that I should appreciate the people who care to criticize some thing to better one. So the fact that I love my country of born does not conflict with the fact that we are far away from what should be and try to use the critiques to make it better if we can. For the same matter, criticizing the system in Finland in that it could provide more fair chances for the immigrants, should not be viewed as destroying the face of the country and hostility against Finns, but merely a way to do things better and every one live happily here. The “My Way Or High Way” is not a good solution because some people have moved to Finland, not because they met a Finnish girl in a bar, saying UK, and moved here to try their chances. they moved here because their lives were at risk and they had and have no where to go.
So it benefits all if we all hear what we say, and what we want. This blog is by no mean to put any country or nationality down, but to improve things, to be friend with each other, and enjoy the short life all together.
Enrique
October 23, 2010
Hi Alien, nice to here from you again. That is what I tried to tell Tuukka that there are many of us who take up an issue in our own country because we believe in a better tomorrow.
I also like what you said at the end: This blog is by no mean to put any country or nationality down, but to improve things, to be friend with each other, and enjoy the short life all together.
Life is short. So short, in fact, that we have to be egoistic with time.
chad
October 24, 2010
Enrique shutup you are indeed putting a nationality down by claiming that most of Finland is racist and therefore Enrique you are the true racist. Stop boasting about how big this blog is, that is irrelevant.
Finland is not generally racist and its disgusting that you accuse them of this just because you have trouble fitting in. This thread should have finished a long time ago.
I know that you are likely a bitter non-white who likes to play the “race card” whenever something doesnt go your way in a different country and thats just pathetic!
Be grateful that you have been accepted into their land and try to make something out of your life instead of whining on forums.
Do you really think people should change their entire way of life in their territory just to suit your needs? NO You are the one who should adapt to THEIR way of life. Its human nature to experience the things you stated in this thread such as “too nice” or “know more then me” and you will experience it in all countries, but for you to claim that its racism is horrible and offensive to fins. I hear that Mexico is a nightmare for white people why arnt you whining about that? ( I assume you are from Mexico with that name) Meh doesn’t even matter anyway.
Your defense to my similar answer before was “why dont you have a more imaginative position on this” I dont need to take different positions and try to understand where you are coming from because i know that you are wrong, i know that its not an entire country being bigots but its extremely likely that you are just unable to adapt 100% and are automatically using the race card which ironically makes you the racist here.
Enrique
October 24, 2010
Chad, you sound like a man in a confessionary who admitted his sins to society. Apologies for my sarcasm.
After you count to ten and regain control, could you please tell me where I stated that “most Finns are racist?” You claim that I am non-white and using the “race card.” That’s funny and a very stereotypic non-immginative response. I am just devbating an issue and exercising my right to do so.
You said: I dont need to take different positions and try to understand where you are coming from because i know that you are wrong,
You sound like the person that does not want to acknowledge anyone except himself. Are you married to a Finn?
blehie
November 11, 2010
There are racist everywhere…sad…
Enrique
November 11, 2010
Hi blehie, you get the same feeling as I do?
Finn0
November 16, 2010
So because the unemployment among foreigners is high, Finns are racist? Did you know that the finnish government hands out more social security benefits to immigrants than any other country in europe. Maybe that has something to do with the high unemployment rate.
Way to go, blame the native population for all your problems.
Enrique
November 16, 2010
Hi FinnO, who wants social secutiry? Jobs, jobs and jobs. The only way a person can find dignity in this society is through work. Unemployment among immigrants is at least three times higher tan nationally. Jobs are a way of acceptance and incorporation to society. There are many reasons why immigrant unemployment is high but one of these, in my opinion, is prejudice.
xyz
November 16, 2010
Finn0: You have a job? I will take it straight away. Doesn’t matter what it is. Give me your email and I will send you my CV. Only requirement is that it should be around Helsinki.
chad
November 17, 2010
Enrique
Im also exercising my right to debate but i dont need to mention that fact like you are. Why are you so defensive and insecure when someone provides some opposition? The truth is you are not a white person and you are indeed blaming the General Finnish public of racism, which is a little ironic considering you have been welcomed there in the first place and given to opportunity to live in their land, enjoying the fruits of their labor. I think its disgusting that you accuse Finnish people of racism just because you are not totally accepted amongst their social groups and culture etc. You complain that they are “too nice” and “watch over you alot” THAT IS NOT THEIR RACISM, ITS YOUR PARANOIA, and the fact that you resorted to the race card, accusing an entire peaceful population of racism is horrible and feeble minded. Why dont you move to Mexico, India, Australia, China etc and see what happens. People naturally stick to their own kind and it takes a while before people can adapt. I think its ungrateful that you have been granted residency in Finland, but because of your inability to fit in instantly (normal) You accuse them of racism. You are the true racist here, emphasizing on race and accusing an entire people of bigotry. Why is it you keep replying with “but this thread is extremely popular so dont mock it” type of thing, What does the popularity of this thread have to do with the accuracy of your accusations? This thread is popular because its controversial on your behalf, and because you also attract the hordes of non-whites who are looking for a place to vent their insecurities on the white man, screaming “RACIST” with pitchforks and using the race card to justify their own failures. The Finnish people dont vote for extreme radical racist politicians and they arent known to be violent towards others, but you have just given them bad reputation because you felt the need to blame Finnish people for your inability to fit in. Its people like you who are better off staying in your own country, because you obviously have no idea about the natural isolation one feels when the immigrate (natural and not racist) and you are ungrateful of your residency, still not satisfied and you felt the need to come online and accuse them of racism. Your a self righteous idiot who said “im exercising my right to this debate” WHO SAID YOU COULDNT? Go scream “RACIST” some more enjoy white land as you stab them in the back. You make me sick and you are the true racist here, not innocent fins who are just going about their daily lives, trying to feed their families.
Enrique
November 17, 2010
Hi Chad, thank you for those inspiring thoughts. I don’t need to comment any further. I will allow the bloggers to make their own judgement about your accusations. Is this how you respond in a normal debate when people can see your face and know your name? Why do it anonymously?
chad
November 17, 2010
Enrique “Is this how you respond in a normal debate when people can see your face and know your name? Why do it anonymously?”
Excuse me? Are you asking for me to totally reveal my identity in an internet debate? I dont even see how thats relevant unless you are implying i am a coward, just because i dont agree with your pathetic accusations that Finnish people are racist. Why dont you upload a picture of yourself, and provide your name and address of residency, then perhaps i will thing abou it. Hmm what are you waiting for? We are waiting
Enrique
November 17, 2010
–Excuse me? Are you asking for me to totally reveal my identity in an internet debate?
You would never talk this way nor insult/accuse people of the things you do if you weren’t anonymous. That is why I am not anonymous. I take responsibility for what I write and do not hide for cover like you. It does not take too much character to insult and accuse people anonymously. End of story.
chad
November 17, 2010
Enrique. “I take responsibility for what I write and do not hide for cover like you.” Who said i am taking cover? You really dislike opposition dont you? this insecurity probably is related to your need to bring up the “race card” for everything and brand entire nations and people “racist” when you dont get your way. Since you are such a brave person, why dont you reveal your full name and residential address please. You are indeed taking cover you CENSORED.
Enrique
November 17, 2010
–Who said i am taking cover? You really dislike opposition dont you?
Who is censoring you?
–You are indeed taking cover you CENSORED
One of my favorite passtimes is reffing. You have now received a disqualifying foul. This type of a foul is given for flagrantly unsportsmanlike action in this forum.
Last comment: In this blog I do not accuse ALL Finns of something. Some do in this blog when speaking of other groups. However, I like to use SOME Finns as opposed to ALL Finns.
Lucilla
November 23, 2010
I’m a Finnish woman, living in Britain, white, married to an Asian man.
Funnily enough….
1) I am self-employed (for some it is the only way of employment)
2) I’m unemployed (generally jobless claims among foreigners totals about 26%)
3) Finns often give me strange looks
4) Public officials, like the police, drag their heels with me
5) The police consider me guilty before proving my innocence
6) A Finn treats me too nicely
7) Finns are distrustful of me
8 Finns are usually watching over me at work (I have to be twice as good as a Finn)
9) If I make a mistake, it’s a bigger deal than normal
10) In a debate, I always know less than a Finn
I can relate to all of this, apart from the self-employment and Police (Authorities end to hassle men more). Both Finland and Britain are not the most polite of places. Except that British bureaucracy is worse.
Only real racism though I’ve encountered was other Chinese calling my ethnically Chinese husband “race traitor”. I actually found it funny, as it proves that racism comes in all colours…
To all the non-Finnish here generalising, misunderstanding and badmouthing Finland – all I ask, as a history student, is not to say a word about history, unless you happen to be an expert. Same goes for Finns of course.
What nowadays is called fashionably “racism” is actually tribalism. It can be about ethnicity, religion, language, ideology, anything. Different cultures have different intolerances. One plus point for Finns is that as speakers of minority language they are curious and tolerant about other languages. Speakers of major languages in the other hand – they don’t even want to learn other languages.
of course there are really, really racist countries in the world as well. Google Malaysia and bumiputera (as a Malay was writing here earlier) – that is real racism that would cause any European nation to be boycotted. Ask Malaysian Chinese or Indian what they think of their country.
A.J.
November 29, 2010
I lived in Finland a for five years; I left about three years ago and settled with my Finnish wife in the states. I have an American (European decent) mother and an Africa father, which definitely made me standout in Finland. If you are black and you don’t go out much (I never went to bars), you probably won’t encounter too much overt racism. Finns only tend to get bold and blabber after they’ve had a few beers. Another advantage I had is that I am tall and quite muscular, so the few times Finns said something to me about being black, I just stood up and said “what?” and they ran off like little drunken cowards.
But Finland is in many ways a great place: safe, good schools, low pollution. But I wouldn’t immigrate there…too much xenophobia. Another problem is that there is a very strong “good ol boys network” there, so even if you are white you probably won’t have much luck getting a good job unless you have some VERY good connections. “Pekka likes to hire Pekka’s friends,” as the saying goes. This is of course true anywhere you go, but it’s very noticeable in Finland. At least in the states you have a WAY better chance of getting ahead because things seem more “merit based”: if you are good at what you do or you are highly qualified, things tend to work out.
Another thing is that in the states, you have a lot of people on your side. In Finland, by contrast, not many people will come to bat for you, and the loudest voices are the xenophobic voices, and everyone else is rather quiet. Strange. Thus, the xenophobic voices tend to dominate and, at the end of the day, set the overall mood on the matter. Fortunately I don’t have to put up with that anymore. I wish the best to all!
Enrique
November 30, 2010
Hi A.J. and welcome to Migrant Tales. This is the result when a country does not know how to tap new synergies that can be beneficial for i: people move to other countries and I can’t blame them. There is no reason to stick around a country if there are no opportunities to build a future. The United States is based on a whole different dynamic and this explains why it is able to absorb so many new immigrants and ideas constantly. I agree with what you say that xenophobia has a louder voice for now. Even so, it is losing ground since it has been forced to come out in the open.
One of the most outrageous matters about that far-right wing of the True Finns that is anti-immigration is that they think it is normal to be xenophobic. As long a large minority thinks this way and as long the leadership stands quiet to racism in Finland the more lost opportunities Finland will inflict on itself.
I am optimistic, however, that there are already more Finns that are outspoken and understand that cultural diversity is a benefit not an illness.
Tiwaz
December 2, 2010
-”I am optimistic, however, that there are already more Finns that are outspoken and understand that cultural diversity is a benefit not an illness.”
Actually, with fact of immigrants being disproportionately responsible for most heinous of crimes is making that group of fools diminish.
Finnish tolerance has been abused long enough, and now Finns have had enough.
It is time for immigrants to grasp that you can’t expect Finns to change Finland to fit you, you must change to fit Finland.
That can very easily explain situation where AJ was.
He thinks it is xenophoby when he HIMSELF does not adjust to his surroundings.
It is the most common type of racism, IMMIGRANT racism, where immigrant does not bother to look in the mirror and think what they have been doing.
This is racism where immigrant refuses to accept that there is any other “correct” way to live but theirs, and expect Finns to automatically appease himself by changing their way of life to fit one of the immigrant.
xyz
December 3, 2010
Tiwaz, do you have any friends?
Morjens
December 7, 2010
Hello everyone,
firstly I am a finn as well. Pure blood. Raised in Helsinki. Secondly I agree with everything alien has said.
This is a backwater place, and even the guys who speak swedish on the side of finnish natively here encounter crap you would not believe. I have pushed down many a drunkard who tried to hit a black guy, swedish guy, iranian guy etc… Had to do something. Those fucks ruin it for everybody. And they wear the finnish lion, flag and shit. I hate what you have done to my national symbols you retards.
Most people are educated academically, but that doesn’t make you smart – even a parrot can recite philosophy… Those who aren’t educated are lost souls, doomed to be lower class. Thats that for democracy. The reason why racism exists is because of the amount of frustration in the shitty situation. No future, no social contact – except for the drunkenness, being constantly fucked by corporations, employers, the state and incompetent banks…
When you talk about Finland being a western country… Please. Cartells, monopolies, state-owned corporations, oligarchy… A friend of mine, who moved out of the former soviet union told me that this is what the Soviet was supposed to be.
Of finland being a progressive society… We have this thing called a “10 years pizza” which essentially comes from the fact that it took 10 years for the finnish public to realize that pizza was edible. Kebab has just now become commonplace. It took 10 years as well. Nokia has after 10 years decided to do something about apple. We tend to watch what sweden does, hate on it for 5 years and then learn it in 5 years…
I speak 5 languages. I am leaving this place as there is no future, no jobs. The place was built for the people who are now in their 50-60ies. The only free jobs are for the ones who care for these pensioned bastards. Talk about finland is the best country in the world… Estonians are going to kill us in IT in less than 5 years, because we suck at doing things right. We are sneaky bastards and backstabbers when it comes to money. Might be the most honorable, serious, polite and truthful people face to face, but money is always more important. It didn’t use to be like this. The generations who fought the war and built this country are not like the guys that live here now. Not at all.
It makes me sad. For those of you who come here thinking you might start a business, please don’t. The state will take all of your money and leave you with debt you pay off for the rest of your life. How do I know this? Because it is what we do to our own kind as well.
Tiwaz
December 8, 2010
Plenty of friends. Even immigrants.
You see, I love my country. I love my culture. Once you are prepared to show respect for them when in my home country, I am quite amiable chap.
If all you do is whine how things are not how you want and demanding that I and my kind must change so you do not. You meet the less amiable version.
Enrique
December 9, 2010
Hi Morjens, and welcome to Migrant Tales. We hope to hear more of you. The matter that stuck in my mind from your thread was: I speak 5 languages. I am leaving this place as there is no future, no jobs. The place was built for the people who are now in their 50-60ies. This is why I think that young people must do everything possible to keep Finland a place where they play a vital role. The aging of the population is a big issue and matters will get worse. One demographer believed that robots would help Finland in the future.
alien
December 9, 2010
Enrique
” One demographer believed that robots would help Finland in the future. ”
That was a good one!
I hope they make good robots. IF the robots fingers would not work well, could cause great damages specially to the sensitive part of the bodies!
Tuomas
December 10, 2010
Morjens,
“I am leaving this place as there is no future, no jobs.”
Do you mind if I ask where to exactly? Besides apparent job opportunities, what other appeal does that country have for you?
xyz
December 10, 2010
Tuomas: I suppose having a job is a central part of life. A country is not attractive for me if I have to live there in poverty. Might be a different story if you have family there. However, If there are no jobs then it sucks no matter how good a country ranks.
Tiwaz
December 13, 2010
Good question to Tuomas would be…
What are you qualified to do? If you have useful skills, you are unlikely to be unemployed.
If your only papers are that you studied languages and majored in woolsock knitting…
Employment prospects are bad. That’s the reality.
Nobody owes him, or any immigrant, a job. He, and every immigrant, must strive to show themselves as good investment to possible employer.
No useful skills means not good investment.
StiflersDad
December 15, 2010
I’m a finn married to an african-born & bred lady. I have frequently read this blog and looked at its accusations of racism and general ill-treatment of foreigners. I have decided to finally post here to say that at least in our family we have been very well received in Finland since moving here 3 years ago.
My wife in particular has a very healthy attitude, which I think would be helpful if all immigrants shared it, where she actually believes that finns should first look after themselves and only then accomodate immigrants. She always tells me how finns do not have pride in their own people the way Zulus, Xhosas, Boers, or Venda would always look after their own in South Africa.
If you go to any country in Africa (at least the 3 that I have worked in!) being an immigrant immediately places you in a disadvantaged position. My last job in South Africa was on a 3-month rolling contract as under South African law no job can be given to a foreigner if a local black person (employment equity laws) could do the job. This meant that the post was continously advertised while suitable candites were looked for. Did I feel it was unfair? No, it is their own country and they can make their own rules. For the same reason, I don’t protest publicly about the inhumane punishments for crimes in Saudi Arabia – I don’t agree with them but who am I to tell them how to live.
In conclusion, if you come to Finland (1) not expecting special treatment, (2) understanding that you will have to work at least as hard as the natives to prove yourself, and (3) realising that not every negative event is caused by me being a foreigner…then you will be fine. It worked for us and my wife feels very much at home here.
xyz
December 15, 2010
I give you an idea about the job situation here in Finland. I have contacted last week 15 hotels if they have a job available. Out of 15 hotels in Helsinki and Tampere there was only 1 position available as a waiter. For higher qualified jobs I got 10 rejections last week and all of them said “We got 60 applications, unfortunately….”
If you look at the job market here, I suppose it is quite clear that most of the foreigners are here because they have family. Career perspectives are quite limited from my experience. Even if you take the integration course which is offered by the government you will see in the statistics that only 1 out of 6 foreigners get a job here.
In the news I also read that being self employed is not an attractive option for Finns. I suppose this also means that there will be not many jobs created in the future as well. The only way to get jobs here is to find foreign investors.
xyz
December 15, 2010
Under South African law no job can be given to a foreigner if a local black person (employment equity laws) could do the job.
-Imagine they would apply this rule to every country…just imagine how many Finns would move back to Finland…
xyz
December 15, 2010
By the way, I know already 4 Finns which I got to know here in Finland who are working abroad (2 of them in my country).
alien
December 16, 2010
StiflersDad !!!!!
I guess most of us care about StiflersMom.
Normal ones atleast:)
Tiwaz
December 16, 2010
-”I give you an idea about the job situation here in Finland. I have contacted last week 15 hotels if they have a job available. Out of 15 hotels in Helsinki and Tampere there was only 1 position available as a waiter. For higher qualified jobs I got 10 rejections last week and all of them said “We got 60 applications, unfortunately….””
And of course you not getting job is because Finns are racist.
It is not relevant to you being refused that you, as you admit yourself, cannot speak Finnish.
Which is essential skill in EVERY customer service position (which waiter is).
As for only one opening being for jobs. Well, that simply tells that there are no jobs. What do you expect? That they hire you despite not needing you?
What makes you entitled to such special treatment?
And you got turned down from 10 companies. First look in mirror, ask if you REALLY think you are so hot shit that they would drool to hire you. And if your honest assesment is that you are not.
Accept that you were not best candidate.
xyz
December 16, 2010
And of course you not getting job is because Finns are racist.
-Nope because there are no jobs
It is not relevant to you being refused that you, as you admit yourself, cannot speak Finnish.
-Those jobs I apply do not require Finnish
Which is essential skill in EVERY customer service position (which waiter is).
-Nope, they don’t require Finnish since their customers are mainly business travelers
As for only one opening being for jobs. Well, that simply tells that there are no jobs. What do you expect? That they hire you despite not needing you?
-Nope. I just accept that there are no jobs in Finland and you need to accept that I am not here because of social welfare.
What makes you entitled to such special treatment?
-Which special treatment? You can be happy if somebody comes voluntarily to a country which has no jobs.
And you got turned down from 10 companies. First look in mirror, ask if you REALLY think you are so hot shit that they would drool to hire you. And if your honest assesment is that you are not.
-Well my employer in Ireland still asks me if I want to come back. It’s not my fault if there are no jobs in Finland. The 60 other applicants are most likely also frustrated
Accept that you were not best candidate.
-Have no problem with that. It’s not my fault if they are not able to create jobs here and that there is a recession.
Enrique
December 16, 2010
Hi StiflersDad, thank you for joining Migrant Tales and telling us about your experiences in South Africa. As you know, just because things are done badly in another country does not justify the same type of action in a country like Finland, which respects and upholds human rights. Special treatment? This is what I would classify as “being treated too nicely” by a Finn. Immigrants that move to this country want equality and some recognition that they live in this country. In number 2, which you mention that one must work as hard as a native, I would claim that one has to work twice or three times harder to prove that you are equal to a Finn. If you make a mistake it is usually a much bigger thing.
alien
December 20, 2010
Enrique:
“In number 2, which you mention that one must work as hard as a native, I would claim that one has to work twice or three times harder to prove that you are equal to a Finn. If you make a mistake it is usually a much bigger thing.”
Well, in fact an immigrant in an equal level with a Finn has many times less rights than a Finn, and when it comes to punishment again in the same level with a Finn, would be punished many times harder than a Finn! I dont know if that is called racism, assimilation policy, anti-multiculturism or what ever! What I know is that this is against the very civil laws and Finland’s constitution as well.
For those immigrants that think that Finland changes, I should say that is true, but probably their bones are even rotted in the grave before we get to those changes. For those who expects to see a better condition, that is for them to change their life direction, not necessarily in Finland, but base on their hard works and paying the necessary price!
Merry Christmas to every one!
Tiwaz
December 20, 2010
Ah, and here is alien again.
And acute readers will notice that he once again makes racist accusations… Without PROOF!
xyz:
I’m trying to help you here mate…
-”Nope, they don’t require Finnish since their customers are mainly business travelers”
And they said this or is this your own estimate?
Have you ever considered possibility that most business travelers in Finland tend to be… Finns.
My friend is one of them. He spends 1/3-2/3 of his year on the road, in hotels and such. And he is 100% Finnish.
Business traveler does not equal foreigner. Because amount of those we receive here in Finland is not nearly enough to cover costs of running hotels.
-”Nope. I just accept that there are no jobs in Finland and you need to accept that I am not here because of social welfare.”
Indeed I do! Welcome again. I do hope you understand that your long term success relies mostly one one thing…
Learn Finnish.
Aamulehti has had an article this fall about how immigrant employment rates go way up…
When they have learned to speak Finnish properly!
Enrique
December 20, 2010
Hi Alien, I could not agree more with you. Let’s hope that change doesn’t take that long. A lot rests on how Finland accepts and treats immigrants. Faulty policy and turning into a Denmark (I don’t believe this will happen) will do a lot of damage to Finland’s reputation. It will scare off all the skilled workers from coming here and encourage those with skills to leave. As you can see, a lot rides on this. Even so, I believe a lot of improvements have been made. An interesting poll in Helsingin Sanomat showed that Jussi Halla-aho was nowhere in sight. This tells me that some Finns are getting pretty tired of this xenophobia boloney. This wing of the True Finns launched their anti-immigrant campaign too early. It may cost them the election in April. All they know what to do is be reactive and hate certain minorities.
xyz
December 20, 2010
And they said this or is this your own estimate?
Have you ever considered possibility that most business travelers in Finland tend to be… Finns.
-Oh really, and why do you think Finland is a country which relies on Exports? And I was told that Finnish is not a requirement. I ALWAYS ask this before I go to an interview.
Aamulehti has had an article this fall about how immigrant employment rates go way up…
-In cleaning? Honestly, what chances do you have on a job market if you have spent 3 years learning Finnish? That’s all crap with the language requirement. I have worked in a big company here in Finland for 1 year and for some reasons there was a good as nobody who had a foreign last name.
xyz
December 20, 2010
P.S. There might be some exceptions e.g. Nokia
xyz
December 20, 2010
I think if you want to look for a job in Finland then you should maybe look for smaller companies or start ups. Internet companies might be interesting since they do not necessarily only focus on the Finnish market. Also start ups are run by younger people who are more open minded towards foreigners.
Tiwaz
December 20, 2010
-”Oh really, and why do you think Finland is a country which relies on Exports?”
Exporting means you are selling, which means you go to CUSTOMER to kiss his ass.
You do not tell customer to come to you.
-”And I was told that Finnish is not a requirement. I ALWAYS ask this before I go to an interview.”
That is more or less because of requirements of the law. Companies cannot say flat out that they require fluent Finnish even if it is necessary.
However, they can state that Finnish is necessary and then prioritize those who have such skills.
-”In cleaning? Honestly, what chances do you have on a job market if you have spent 3 years learning Finnish?”
Well, that is your problem. You want your cake and eat it, but can’t have both.
-”That’s all crap with the language requirement. I have worked in a big company here in Finland for 1 year and for some reasons there was a good as nobody who had a foreign last name.”
Hmm. Could be that Finns know already how society works and are able to interact in it properly (employers do NOT want people in team who break cohesion as it is bad for efficiency) and they speak Finnish, enabling more fluent information sharing.
-”I think if you want to look for a job in Finland then you should maybe look for smaller companies or start ups.”
However, smaller companies have less desire to waste time and effort to satisfy needs of one worker who needs to have everything translated to English, when money and resources are tight as it is.
-”Internet companies might be interesting since they do not necessarily only focus on the Finnish market.”
Which again does not mean jack shit. Inside the company communication will still be in Finnish.
-”Also start ups are run by younger people who are more open minded towards foreigners.”
Actually, younger ones are steadily becoming more and more critical. Multiculturalists are steadily diminishing group.
What immigrants have to understand is that you have to show that you want to be part of community, in terms of the community.
NEVER listen to Enrique is good advice. He thinks it is duty of Finns to make immigrants happy, when in reality it is duty of immigrants to make themselves fit the community.
You can choose the Enrique way, which means nobody wants to hire you if they can’t get rid of you easily.
Or you can integrate, learn to act and speak Finnish, and prosper.
xyz
December 20, 2010
Exporting means you are selling, which means you go to CUSTOMER to kiss his ass.
You do not tell customer to come to you.
-So you mean that nobody is interested to sell anything to Finland. That would sound strange to me…
That is more or less because of requirements of the law. Companies cannot say flat out that they require fluent Finnish even if it is necessary.
However, they can state that Finnish is necessary and then prioritize those who have such skills.
-Somehow these sentences of you do not really make any sense.
Well, that is your problem. You want your cake and eat it, but can’t have both.
-The cake is just not very sweet here.
Hmm. Could be that Finns know already how society works and are able to interact in it properly
-We actually pay with bananas outside of Finland
However, smaller companies have less desire to waste time and effort to satisfy needs of one worker who needs to have everything translated to English, when money and resources are tight as it is.
-Money and resources will stay tight if they don’t find anybody who is able to access new markets for them. Plus smaller companies are more flexible.
Which again does not mean jack shit. Inside the company communication will still be in Finnish.
-Well if you are my boss then yes. However, there are also educated Finns who are able to speak English and they don’t really care about it. If they find somebody to access new markets they will hire him.
Actually, younger ones are steadily becoming more and more critical. Multiculturalists are steadily diminishing group.
-Oh that is why I have 4 Finnish friends who are already working abroad. Why do they not stay in Finland?
Or you can integrate, learn to act and speak Finnish, and prosper.
-The question is more is it worth the effort? If you take the integration course offered by the government…1 out of 6 immigrants do find a job afterwards. Maybe you can tell me where the motivation is (despite the high living costs in Finland).
Tiwaz
December 21, 2010
-”So you mean that nobody is interested to sell anything to Finland. That would sound strange to me…”
I am saying that amount of people coming from abroad to sell stuff in Finland is so small, that hotels cannot try to live from that.
-”Somehow these sentences of you do not really make any sense.”
They would make sense if you knew something about Finland. See, officials like to think they know better than employers if job X requires Finnish.
So they can make things difficult for company who does not have official stamp of “Finnish required” for any given job.
So, employers say “Finnish not mandatory”, perhaps add “Finnish is a bonus” and then quietly map all applications from language handcapped applicants to mappi-ö.
-”We actually pay with bananas outside of Finland”
Cool. Whatever suits you out there. In case you still have not figured it out, Finland is not “outside of Finland”. But rather has it’s own unique code of conduct. Just like just about every other world in this mudball.
-”Money and resources will stay tight if they don’t find anybody who is able to access new markets for them. Plus smaller companies are more flexible.”
Shows how little you know. Small company cannot afford risky foreign adventures. First priority for every small company (game industry perhaps as an exception) needs to have solid DOMESTIC position before they can entertain any idea of international expansion.
Trying to run before you can walk never leads to anything. Thus, small companies have little use for “international” workers.
-”Well if you are my boss then yes. However, there are also educated Finns who are able to speak English and they don’t really care about it. If they find somebody to access new markets they will hire him.”
Finns can speak English, we just prefer not to. Imagine that!
And as I said, accessing new markets comes only after you have saturated existing markets and have extra cash to waste in attempt to expand.
When you do not have money to spare, spending it in high risk foreign market expansion is only sure way to bankrupt your company.
-”Oh that is why I have 4 Finnish friends who are already working abroad. Why do they not stay in Finland?”
And your 4 person limited and non-random take somehow represents the whole Finnish population more accurately than my quite a bit wider sample?
-”The cake is just not very sweet here.”
You are free to leave. Many immigrants have found out that putting the work required into fitting in has paid off well. For them, Finland has become home. Guess what is their difference to you or Enrique or rest of whiners…
They chose to fit into their surroundings, not demand surroundings to fit to them.
-”The question is more is it worth the effort? If you take the integration course offered by the government…1 out of 6 immigrants do find a job afterwards. Maybe you can tell me where the motivation is (despite the high living costs in Finland).”
It is not my job to motivate you. You have to find your own motivation. If you have none, I recommend leaving. No point staying in a place where you do not want to stay.
I have never said that Finland is perfect place for everyone. And because it is free country, you have freedom to go and find one that fits you.
I simply oppose you, Enrique and rest trying to demand that Finland has to change to fit you, despite huge majority of people being quite content with the way it is.
You want tyranny of minority, few unhappy whiners trying to ruin what others find perfectly nice place to live.
xyz
December 21, 2010
I am saying that amount of people coming from abroad to sell stuff in Finland is so small, that hotels cannot try to live from that.
-50% of visitors to Helsinki come from foreign countries (page 2): http://www.visithelsinki.fi/loader.aspx?id=fdb6fcbe-8c75-45bc-8a4d-2fb9f41cb3e0
They would make sense if you knew something about Finland. See, officials like to think they know better than employers if job X requires Finnish.
-This makes no sense. There is no law which says that you can not state language skills. Why should a company waste time in interviewing people if they do not have a chance right away?
Shows how little you know. Small company cannot afford risky foreign adventures. First priority for every small company (game industry perhaps as an exception) needs to have solid DOMESTIC position before they can entertain any idea of international expansion.
-Ever thought of products which do sell better outside of Finland? I mean I would go where the market is. For example why should I sell in Finland if I could sell my product in China (more customers).
And your 4 person limited and non-random take somehow represents the whole Finnish population more accurately than my quite a bit wider sample?
-Could say the same about you. You also think that you represent whole Finland.
You are free to leave. Many immigrants have found out that putting the work required into fitting in has paid off well. For them, Finland has become home. Guess what is their difference to you or Enrique or rest of whiners…
-And what do you mean with many if 27% are unemployed and x percentage is doing part-time/temporary jobs or are in job training?
Tiwaz
December 22, 2010
-”50% of visitors to Helsinki come from foreign countries (page 2): http://www.visithelsinki.fi/loader.aspx?id=fdb6fcbe-8c75-45bc-8a4d-2fb9f41cb3e0”
50% is not majority. You are still unable to service 50% of guests in their preferred language.
You might make decent seasonal helper though, when amount of foreign visitors is highest.
-”This makes no sense. There is no law which says that you can not state language skills. Why should a company waste time in interviewing people if they do not have a chance right away?”
It is equality laws. You cannot be disqualified for language, religious etc grounds. So, to say that you must speak Finnish you must have some kind of justification for needing it. What qualifies for justification in minds of officials is quite different from what companies think. This is partially because officials do not take into account the workplace cohesion, increased costs in handling things in multiple languages etc. Stuff which companies pay attention to as it directly relates to their profits.
Thus, they make the motions and just dump your CV to trashcan.
-”Ever thought of products which do sell better outside of Finland? I mean I would go where the market is. For example why should I sell in Finland if I could sell my product in China (more customers).”
Why have company in Finland in that case at all?
Second, do you know you can sell stuff better in China?
Going to foreign markets is not as easy as you think. Specially if you totally lack good references from your native country.
There are more POTENTIAL customers in China, but will they BUY anything? Can they afford to buy? What are costs of expanding? Customs expenses?
-”Could say the same about you. You also think that you represent whole Finland. ”
I am closer to average Finn than your example guys. Also, I know a whole lot more people from all walks of life than you do. I also have far better touch with Finnish mentality and culture, having been born and raised with those.
-”And what do you mean with many if 27% are unemployed and x percentage is doing part-time/temporary jobs or are in job training?”
And what kind of people this 27% are? Have you looked inside this statistic to see what kind of people are most likely to be in trouble in finding employment?
Uneducated, unskilled and non-finnish speakers.
Is it a surprise that such people have lowest possibility of employment?
Uneducated and unskilled Finns are least likely to be employed out of natives as well. They just have their language and cultural skills to work with.
When you reach group educated, skilled and Finnish speaking, there is practically no difference in employment between Finn and foreigner.
It is not inherent racism of Finns which causes this, but high demands of Finnish worklife.
xyz
December 22, 2010
50% is not majority. You are still unable to service 50% of guests in their preferred language
-You said the amount of foreign guests is small. 50% is not small.
It is equality laws. You cannot be disqualified for language, religious etc grounds.
-Ah, that means that you don’t even respect your own law. Do you make your own law Tiwaz?
Why have company in Finland in that case at all?
Second, do you know you can sell stuff better in China?
-Ask Nokia, they do the same.
Going to foreign markets is not as easy as you think. Specially if you totally lack good references from your native country.
-Come on…with Finnish Quality products this should be easy
There are more POTENTIAL customers in China, but will they BUY anything? Can they afford to buy? What are costs of expanding? Customs expenses?
-Next time when you go to the city count the brands which are not Finnish. I hope this will answer your question.
Also, I know a whole lot more people from all walks of life than you do.
-How do you know who I know?
I also have far better touch with Finnish mentality and culture, having been born and raised with those.
-You should be really proud of this. Now you can imagine how hard it is for foreigners to learn everything in 1 week which took xx years for you.
And what kind of people this 27% are? Have you looked inside this statistic to see what kind of people are most likely to be in trouble in finding employment?
-Yep, it’s me for example. Today I just refused a job offer from big company in Germany because I might have the chance to get a job in a big Asian company here in Helsinki which I found more interesting. Have never worked for an Asian company and it would be a new challenge.
Uneducated, unskilled and non-finnish speakers.
Is it a surprise that such people have lowest possibility of employment?
-How do you know that they are all uneducated and unskilled? Non-Finnish speaker could be. How long did it take for you to say the first time äiti? By the way, you have to write “non-Finnish” and not “non-finnish” (since you have lived 1 year in the UK)
When you reach group educated, skilled and Finnish speaking, there is practically no difference in employment between Finn and foreigner.
-Can’t comment on this since I don’t speak fluent Finnish. Of course I agree that you have better chances to find a job if you speak fluent Finnish.
It is not inherent racism of Finns which causes this, but high demands of Finnish worklife.
-That’s true. For some jobs Finnish skills are necessary. But not for all. However, if you read some of your previous comments about immigrants then you have a good reference about racism. And as I also wrote, you do not represent every Finn.
Tiwaz
January 3, 2011
-”You said the amount of foreign guests is small. 50% is not small.”
You said that foreign BUSINESS travellers form majority. You never spoke of foreigners in general, until now. That 50% has great deal of ordinary tourists involved.
Thus, when you deduct annual tourists, you get small minority of clients being foreign business travellers.
-”Ah, that means that you don’t even respect your own law. Do you make your own law Tiwaz?”
I do respect law. However, interpretation of the law is another question. As stated, officials who have no grasp of actual work or no knowledge of work environment and have no personal stake (if it goes bust, you lose your income) making idiot decisions on what jobs need fluent Finnish is wrong.
-”Ask Nokia, they do the same.” And do you think they asked some poor chinaman who moved to Finland do “open the markets”?
-”Come on…with Finnish Quality products this should be easy
”
Quality costs. Many people prefer cheap knock offs. Or buy overpriced crap due to good marketing (iCrap, I be looking at you).
-”Next time when you go to the city count the brands which are not Finnish. I hope this will answer your question.”
Next time you find your brain, ask yourself what are the cost structures of those products.
There is a reason why “Made in China” is cheap… Would you like to work in one of those production facilities?
-”How do you know who I know?”
You claim to have more Finnish contacts than native Finn? Tells us a lot about your arrogance.
-”You should be really proud of this. Now you can imagine how hard it is for foreigners to learn everything in 1 week which took xx years for you.”
Show me where I have said it is easy. I have never said that. I simply say that there is little to no alternative. So, I recommed either starting to work hard on getting there, or getting a plane ticket elsewhere.
-”Yep, it’s me for example. Today I just refused a job offer from big company in Germany because I might have the chance to get a job in a big Asian company here in Helsinki which I found more interesting. Have never worked for an Asian company and it would be a new challenge.”
And do you think that Asian office in Helsinki is going to be massively different from Finnish office in Helsinki? They most likely will still use mostly Finnish, unless that company has policy of only hiring foreigners (in which case we should again remember the equality laws… right?).
-”How do you know that they are all uneducated and unskilled? Non-Finnish speaker could be. How long did it take for you to say the first time äiti? By the way, you have to write “non-Finnish” and not “non-finnish” (since you have lived 1 year in the UK)
”
So I make typos. Sue me. As for uneducated and unskilled. Because skilled people who speak the language tend to find work. And in Finland, speaking Finnish is essential skill. So even if educated (and again, must remind that graduation papers from abroad is big unknown so you need to have it translated into Finnish equivalent) but not speaking Finnish, you are unskilled.
-”That’s true. For some jobs Finnish skills are necessary. But not for all. However, if you read some of your previous comments about immigrants then you have a good reference about racism. And as I also wrote, you do not represent every Finn.”
Very few jobs are ones where Finnish is NOT necessary. In fact, closer to floor level you are (blue collar jobs), more essential Finnish is because language skills are going down as you go down the social ladder. You might not need Finnish to mop the floor, but you DO need Finnish to understand post-it note saying “Moppaa tänään ainoostaan kakkoskerros. -Rape”
So, out of the top of your head. This imaginary note. What it told you and does it include threat of sexual violence to you?
xyz
January 3, 2011
Thus, when you deduct annual tourists, you get small minority of clients being foreign business travellers.
-Honestly, who cares…50% are foreigners..doesn’t matter if business travelers or not. Also if you have a closer look at the statistics I have provided to you it says that 50,7 % are Business travelers.
Officials who have no grasp of actual work or no knowledge of work environment…
-But there seems to be a reason why they became officials. Why do you not apply for such a position?
Quality costs. Many people prefer cheap knock offs. Or buy overpriced crap due to good marketing (iCrap, I be looking at you).
-Well that’s your problem. If people want to buy overprized crap then you have to sell them overprized crap.
There is a reason why “Made in China” is cheap… Would you like to work in one of those production facilities?
-In case of Nokia, those production facilities have been previously also in Finland, Germany etc. Labor cost is cheaper since the living costs are lower. However, if those countries prosper in the future labor costs will continue to rise.
They most likely will still use mostly Finnish, unless that company has policy of only hiring foreigners (in which case we should again remember the equality laws… right?).
-What does this has to do with equality laws? If they do not require any Finnish skills because it is just not necessary why should they still ask this as a requirement?
So even if educated (and again, must remind that graduation papers from abroad is big unknown so you need to have it translated into Finnish equivalent) but not speaking Finnish, you are unskilled.
-Or its just a way to protect the labor market. I can always go back home and get a decent job. I just tell you that foreigners are a big asset for a country who can bring in their own idea and knowledge to create new products and markets. However, if there are no opportunities then of course immigrants do end up in the social system (getting a reputation that they just want to leek the social system). Also there are limited job opportunities in this country. I doubt that there are many who want to spent years in learning this language until they can get into the job market. And even then it is hard to change the company after a few years to get new experience. In this way Finland is not an attractive country for immigrants. Most of the people coming here are those who have family ties. And to be realistic, there is no motivation for me to participate in an integration course where only 1 out of 6 get a job afterwards. Waste of time.
Tiwaz
January 3, 2011
-”Honestly, who cares…50% are foreigners..doesn’t matter if business travelers or not. Also if you have a closer look at the statistics I have provided to you it says that 50,7 % are Business travelers.”
You stated that there would be no need for English as most visitors would be business travellers, and that they were the most important customer segment.
Now you prove that 50% are foreigners.
Is it so difficult to grasp that this means that this means that FOREIGN business travellers are NOT what keeps hotels alive. Because they are not all foreign. Finnish businessmen want service in Finnish.
-”But there seems to be a reason why they became officials. Why do you not apply for such a position?”
I prefer doing real work with purpose.
-”In case of Nokia, those production facilities have been previously also in Finland, Germany etc. Labor cost is cheaper since the living costs are lower. However, if those countries prosper in the future labor costs will continue to rise. ”
Don’t forget that in China, workers have no rights. Pad right pocket a bit, and you can most likely use whip as motivator if you wish.
-”What does this has to do with equality laws? If they do not require any Finnish skills because it is just not necessary why should they still ask this as a requirement? ”
If they only have foreigners, then is this due to them having policy of only hiring foreingers?
If yes, it is violation of those same equality laws…
But one which you, or Enrique, would be more than eager to ignore.
-”Or its just a way to protect the labor market. I can always go back home and get a decent job.”
Good for you.
-”I just tell you that foreigners are a big asset for a country who can bring in their own idea and knowledge to create new products and markets.”
And I am telling you, that foreigners who come to a country but refuse to fit in are not asset but detriment. I have never said that I have anything against immigrants. Just the opposite. But I do have much against immigrants who think they are entitled to special treatment.
-”However, if there are no opportunities then of course immigrants do end up in the social system (getting a reputation that they just want to leek the social system).
Also there are limited job opportunities in this country. ”
Which is why current immigration program has to be totally overhauled to reduce amount of immigrants radically. New jobs are not created at rate which would justify current immigration.
Specially when large number of immigrant have glaring gaps in their skills/education.
-”I doubt that there are many who want to spent years in learning this language until they can get into the job market.”
Too bad. Do you think getting a job as painter in Guatemala is easy if you do not speak the language? Or becoming a sales representative in Japan if you are limited to speaking Spanish?
-”And even then it is hard to change the company after a few years to get new experience. In this way Finland is not an attractive country for immigrants. Most of the people coming here are those who have family ties. And to be realistic, there is no motivation for me to participate in an integration course where only 1 out of 6 get a job afterwards. Waste of time.”
Maybe you should rethink on the way you think working life. You are coming to Finland and expect everything to be just like at home. But you fail to grasp that this is not your native home. Things are different.
That means, you have to learn to adapt. Because that is what immigrants should always do. Adjust to existing community.
Tiwaz
January 3, 2011
I have nothing against you xyz, and you have my respect for trying to make it here and actively seeking employment. But I also know that you are unlikely to find one without Finnish.
I never have pretended that getting set up in Finland is easy, just the opposite. But benefits are there. Once you get set, many do not want to ever leave.
You just have to relearn how things are done to fit in, to figure out how the system works.
Most crying of racism is result of people not doing their homework and learning how Finnish society functions. Then they fail to do the proper thing at proper time and end up burnt.
Instead of learning from it, they start crying racism as if it is fault of Finns that foreigners do not do their homework.
xyz
January 3, 2011
You stated that there would be no need for English as most visitors would be business travellers, and that they were the most important customer segment.
Now you prove that 50% are foreigners.
-One quarter are foreign business travelers and 50% are leisure travelers:
http://www.stat.fi/til/rajat/2009/03/rajat_2009_03_2010-06-09_tau_001_en.html
Is it so difficult to grasp that this means that this means that FOREIGN business travellers are NOT what keeps hotels alive. Because they are not all foreign. Finnish businessmen want service in Finnish.
-The point is that 50% of all visitors are foreigners. Either business or leisure both segments bring money.
I prefer doing real work with purpose.
-Then you should not complain about your officials if you are not able to do it better.
Don’t forget that in China, workers have no rights. Pad right pocket a bit, and you can most likely use whip as motivator if you wish.
-It is also the responsibility of the companies to give workers rights: http://www.clb.org.hk/en/node/100325
If they only have foreigners, then is this due to them having policy of only hiring foreingers?
If yes, it is violation of those same equality laws…
But one which you, or Enrique, would be more than eager to ignore.
-No they hire Finns and Foreigners but they do not make such a big deal because of the language since they do speak English internally.
And I am telling you, that foreigners who come to a country but refuse to fit in are not asset but detriment. I have never said that I have anything against immigrants. Just the opposite. But I do have much against immigrants who think they are entitled to special treatment.
-I don’t want any special treatment. I just see real figures and they say that only1 out of 6 do find a job after they are participating in this integration course. This means that integration does not work or that there are no jobs.
Which is why current immigration program has to be totally overhauled to reduce amount of immigrants radically. New jobs are not created at rate which would justify current immigration.
-Problem is that you are in the European Union and unfortunately the downsize of the European Union is that you will have more foreigners in a country. Germany for example also has to handle 10.000 Finns while there are only 2.000 Germans in Finland (even so the German population is 16 times higher than the Finnish population).
Specially when large number of immigrant have glaring gaps in their skills/education.
-Large numbers? Do you have any figures how many of them are uneducated and where the problems are to integrate them into the society? Maybe they are all lazy?
Too bad. Do you think getting a job as painter in Guatemala is easy if you do not speak the language? Or becoming a sales representative in Japan if you are limited to speaking Spanish?
-Well Guatemala is difficult. I heard that their walls are able to speak which makes getting a job as a painter difficult. Japan is a good example similar to Finland. “If Japanese society changed course and began to emphasize respect for diversity, then surely numerous people would start to develop a more welcoming attitude.”
http://www.japanfocus.org/-Sakanaka-Hidenori/2396
Maybe you should rethink on the way you think working life. You are coming to Finland and expect everything to be just like at home. But you fail to grasp that this is not your native home. Things are different.
-Tell me where my home is? My parents are from different countries where I was born. I live since 13 years abroad. My Fiancee is Finnish.
That means, you have to learn to adapt. Because that is what immigrants should always do. Adjust to existing community.
-Yes, but it takes time. Would you spend 2-6 years without work until you speak fluent Finnish (without accent of course). Lets say you earn 35.000 EUR a year. You will be unemployed for
2-6 years. This means until you speak some Finnish it will cost you at least 75.000 EUR and in the worst case if you can find a job after 6 years 210.000 EUR. Not really tempting…what do you think?
Tiwaz
January 4, 2011
-”-The point is that 50% of all visitors are foreigners. Either business or leisure both segments bring money.”
And most of those 50% come during short period during the height of tourist season. Which means that most of the year you are useless as you cannot serve customers in their preferred language, but still want salary.
-”Then you should not complain about your officials if you are not able to do it better.”
I could do it better, no doubt. Problem is that those posts are rarely open for application.
-”No they hire Finns and Foreigners but they do not make such a big deal because of the language since they do speak English internally.”
No they don’t, unless their office is made up of English speakers only. Office language being English tends to mean that you speak English when you have to communicate with non-Finnish speakers. Rest of the time communication is in… Finnish.
Our office language is English too. Short of official Emails (in 2 languages) and conversations with few foreign workers it is 100% Finnish.
-”Well Guatemala is difficult. I heard that their walls are able to speak which makes getting a job as a painter difficult.”
You forget that to get a job as painter, you need to get a deal from owner of walls…
-”Japan is a good example similar to Finland. “If Japanese society changed course and began to emphasize respect for diversity, then surely numerous people would start to develop a more welcoming attitude.””
And both are examples of well developed, high tech societies with strong cultural tradition creating stable and safe society. I think Sakanaka should try living in one of the multicultural “paradises” for a while and then ask if it is really the way to go…
And again, sales representative who cannot communicate with customer in their preferred language is worthless. You do NOT go demanding customers to adjust to you (unless what you sell is something insanely rare and essential). You adjust to customers.
-”Tell me where my home is? My parents are from different countries where I was born. I live since 13 years abroad. My Fiancee is Finnish.”
Hell if I know what your home is. Clearly not Finland anyway. And your Fiancee does not you Finnish make.
-”Yes, but it takes time. Would you spend 2-6 years without work until you speak fluent Finnish (without accent of course). Lets say you earn 35.000 EUR a year. You will be unemployed for
2-6 years. This means until you speak some Finnish it will cost you at least 75.000 EUR and in the worst case if you can find a job after 6 years 210.000 EUR. Not really tempting…what do you think?”
Too bad. What do you expect? That Finns stop preferring to speak Finnish in their native land? And you did not want “special” treatment. Demanding natives to change themselves or their society for your benefit is very definition of demanding special treatment.
-”Large numbers? Do you have any figures how many of them are uneducated and where the problems are to integrate them into the society? Maybe they are all lazy?”
Yes, large numbers (for example man-imports from Africa/ME tend to be pathetically poorly educated by Finnish standards. Same for Asian spouses). Finnish is essential skill in Finland.
Few people have such education that they can be expected to perform their duties as employee successfully without Finnish. Those are rare specialists.
-”Problem is that you are in the European Union and unfortunately the downsize of the European Union is that you will have more foreigners in a country. Germany for example also has to handle 10.000 Finns while there are only 2.000 Germans in Finland (even so the German population is 16 times higher than the Finnish population).”
EU citizens are least likely to be source of problems either (with some exceptions say Romanians). Our problem are people from 3rd world who come to land of plentiful welfare.
-”I don’t want any special treatment. I just see real figures and they say that only1 out of 6 do find a job after they are participating in this integration course. This means that integration does not work or that there are no jobs.”
Have you bothered to check how many get jobs if they do not go through integration?
xyz
January 4, 2011
And most of those 50% come during short period during the height of tourist season. Which means that most of the year you are useless as you cannot serve customers in their preferred language, but still want salary.
-Depends on the Hotel e.g. Radisson or Hilton are using loyalty programs. You may find more international business travelers there than in other Hotels throughout the year.
I could do it better, no doubt. Problem is that those posts are rarely open for application.
-Well if the current officials can make it there then it should be no problem for you. Same chances for everybody, or not?
No they don’t, unless their office is made up of English speakers only. Office language being English tends to mean that you speak English when you have to communicate with non-Finnish speakers. Rest of the time communication is in… Finnish.
-Nope, they have also Finns but internally they speak English (and the boss is not Finnish either). Can’t change it but that’s how it works there. Have asked during the interview since I wanted to work in an international team
And both are examples of well developed, high tech societies with strong cultural tradition creating stable and safe society. I think Sakanaka should try living in one of the multicultural “paradises” for a while and then ask if it is really the way to go…
-Yup, and all those high tech societies have the same problem. Old people retire soon.
And again, sales representative who cannot communicate with customer in their preferred language is worthless. You do NOT go demanding customers to adjust to you (unless what you sell is something insanely rare and essential). You adjust to customers.
-Yep, but what if my customers are not in Finland? That was the whole idea with getting new markets…quite easy with the internet nowadays. My customers where not in Ireland when I worked there.
Hell if I know what your home is. Clearly not Finland anyway. And your Fiancee does not you Finnish make.
-Depends what you understand under Finnish. Maybe I want to be a Swedish speaking Finn?
Too bad. What do you expect? That Finns stop preferring to speak Finnish in their native land?
And you did not want “special” treatment. Demanding natives to change themselves or their society for your benefit is very definition of demanding special treatment.
-Well they can do whatever they want. At least the majority of foreigners do not come to Finland for career reasons. Not sure if this is good or bad. If I would not have my Fiancee here I would go to another country. My colleague I have graduated with works in Kuwait, earns twice as much than here and does not speak any Arabic. I don’t need Finland. If nothing pops up here I move to another country with my Fiancee as soon as she graduates.
Yes, large numbers (for example man-imports from Africa/ME tend to be pathetically poorly educated by Finnish standards. Same for Asian spouses). Finnish is essential skill in Finland.
Few people have such education that they can be expected to perform their duties as employee successfully without Finnish. Those are rare specialists.
-Asian spouses? What if they are from Japan? Here are your “large numbers”:
Russia 26 909 18,8 2,7 28 210 18,1 4,8
Estonia 22 604 15,8 13,0 25 510 16,4 12,9
Sweden 8 439 5,9 1,1 8 506 5,5 0,8
Somalia 4 919 3,4 1,4 5 570 3,6 13,2
China 4 620 3,2 16,1 5 180 3,3 12,1
Thailand 3 932 2,7 13,3 4 497 2,9 14,4
Iraq 3 238 2,3 6,7 3 978 2,6 22,9
Turkey 3 429 2,4 7,8 3 809 2,4 11,1
Germany 3 502 2,4 5,5 3 628 2,3 3,6
United Kingdom 3 213 2,2 2,2 3 333 2,1 3,7
http://www.stat.fi/tup/suoluk/suoluk_vaesto_en.html
EU citizens are least likely to be source of problems either (with some exceptions say Romanians). Our problem are people from 3rd world who come to land of plentiful welfare.
-When I applied for a social security number, I had to show a work contract even so I am from the EU. It’s not that easy to get “into the system” as you think. And by the way, not all Romanians are like the ones collecting coins on the street.
Have you bothered to check how many get jobs if they do not go through integration?
-I dont have any figures for that. But 1 out of 6 is like gambling.
xyz
January 4, 2011
And then it would be also interesting to know what job this 1 person (out of 6) is doing….
abc
January 11, 2011
of course there is racism in finland. anyone who says otherwise just has not seen it or does not want to see it. but what can you say about it if the people around you are unable to take the infomation simply as a reality and not an accusation against a nation. i have been on the wrong end of racism on many occations but avoid mentioning it because of the common defensive reaction. in my exprerience people here are more liable to react to accusations of racism than racism itself.
luckily for me i am an individual and dont feel compelled to use the word ‘we’ instead of ‘i’ when talking to foreigners, and when i do use the word ‘we’ it changes its meaning depending on the conversation and is only used when relevant. The reason i meantion this is because if i had the choice of 1: not having had the unprovoked physical attacks on me over the last 11 years, one of which has left me in constant pain for the last 3 years and unable to work, possibly for the rest of my life OR 2: not had to listen to the same ethnocentrical dross from those humorless bores who pounce on me at every chance to ask how much i like their country but seen incapable of discussing anything else. well i think the mental damage might just be more damaging.
racism is a problem for everyone who lives here and doesn’t like it, foreign or not. and if you love a country thats good, but there is no law saying you have to stop at the border, you can love other places as well that you were not born in, nobody will mind. its not a competition. enlightenment is only avoided by those too fearful to think for themselves. great people here, but a whole bunch of wankers that are spoiling it for everyone. if you want foreigners to like your country (or leave, as the saying seems to go) then next time you see one, pull the drunk off them and talk about something other than why they moved here and they will be happy. lol
Enrique
January 11, 2011
Hi abc and welcome to Migrant Tales. Thank you for those very moving and sincere words. The reason why some ask you constantly how much you like the country or how great it is is because they have low self-esteem. I know people that still get harassed and attacked physically in this country for having different skin color. There are many stories about this and the reason why they still happen is because some think it is ok. The role of racism in Finland as a weapon to intimidate and exclude others will change when being racist will be something shameful, which it is.
I hope you visit us often. I am confident that we can learn a lot from your experiences.
c.alonso
January 11, 2011
Hi everybody,
I am Spanish, married to a Finnish woman, living in Finnland for about two years now…and would like to say that I have never felt any kind of discrimination in this country…getting a job is becoming difficult even for the finns…and the only reason why I didi not get a good job jet is bacause of the language…even though, I am working at the moment and my “työkavereita” are really patient and ready to help any time I have some kind of linguistic problem…me and my family are invited all the time in different homes, and sometimes I just feel like they would leave me in peace for one weekend…I think that in Spain we are more racists than in Finland!
Enrique
January 11, 2011
Hola C. Alonso, muchas gracias por tu comentario y bienvenido a nuestro blog. I am happy for you that you feel that way. It shows that things can work out. When speaking of racism in Spain I agree but I haven’t seen any study that shows which country is more racist. However, apart from the Muslims, the Latin Americans (Ecuadorians, Peruvians, Bolivians etc) have a pretty bad situation even if they speak Spanish as their mother tongue and belong in many cases to the same religion.
We hope to hear more of your experiences in Finland.
Tiwaz
January 19, 2011
-”Depends on the Hotel e.g. Radisson or Hilton are using loyalty programs. You may find more international business travelers there than in other Hotels throughout the year.”
And would this be very significant number? Not to mention… They could hire a Finn, who speaks Finnish, and good enough English. Where is your benefit comapred to such person?
-”Well if the current officials can make it there then it should be no problem for you. Same chances for everybody, or not?”
-”Nope, they have also Finns but internally they speak English (and the boss is not Finnish either). Can’t change it but that’s how it works there. Have asked during the interview since I wanted to work in an international team
”
Guess what language Finns speak to each other. And what happens when team is predominately Finnish….
-”Well they can do whatever they want. At least the majority of foreigners do not come to Finland for career reasons. Not sure if this is good or bad. If I would not have my Fiancee here I would go to another country. My colleague I have graduated with works in Kuwait, earns twice as much than here and does not speak any Arabic. I don’t need Finland. If nothing pops up here I move to another country with my Fiancee as soon as she graduates.”
Kuwait and trained professional. He gets away not speaking because Kuwait has so pitifully small amount of competent professionals in many fields. It is the difference in supply and demand. Kuwaitis have so huge shortage of engineers they can’t be picky. Finland on other hand is at opposite end of equation.
We have surplus of professionals thanks to free school system pushing them out constantly.
[quote]Asian spouses? What if they are from Japan? Here are your “large numbers”:
Russia 26 909 18,8 2,7 28 210 18,1 4,8
Estonia 22 604 15,8 13,0 25 510 16,4 12,9
Sweden 8 439 5,9 1,1 8 506 5,5 0,8
Somalia 4 919 3,4 1,4 5 570 3,6 13,2
China 4 620 3,2 16,1 5 180 3,3 12,1
Thailand 3 932 2,7 13,3 4 497 2,9 14,4
Iraq 3 238 2,3 6,7 3 978 2,6 22,9
Turkey 3 429 2,4 7,8 3 809 2,4 11,1
Germany 3 502 2,4 5,5 3 628 2,3 3,6
United Kingdom 3 213 2,2 2,2 3 333 2,1 3,7
http://www.stat.fi/tup/suoluk/suoluk_vaesto_en.html/quote
Didn’t they teach you percentages at school? When speaking of this kind of things percentage is relevant, not absolute numbers.
Regarding asians, currently more Thai-wives are brought to Finland than Japanese.
Would need to be in right place at right time to apply. Besides, being engineer and having learned to think for my living tends to make getting there hard.
-”When I applied for a social security number, I had to show a work contract even so I am from the EU. It’s not that easy to get “into the system” as you think. And by the way, not all Romanians are like the ones collecting coins on the street. ”
Least likely to be problems for Finland was my point.
-”I dont have any figures for that. But 1 out of 6 is like gambling.”
It is job hunting. If you have no specially demanded skills means you are not going to be wanted by employers. Skills, skills, skills.
And if your odds are 1/6, it is reasonably good chance compared to those who do not go through courses.
xyz
January 20, 2011
Didn’t they teach you percentages at school? When speaking of this kind of things percentage is relevant, not absolute numbers.
-Maybe you have tomatoes on your eyes but if you look at the second figure then you will realize that these are percentages.
It is job hunting. If you have no specially demanded skills means you are not going to be wanted by employers. Skills, skills, skills.
-Haha are you kidding? In Germany they would say that I am overskilled for all those shit jobs I have applied here. Some “professionals” can not even speak English here and call themselves “professionals” nor have they ever worked with somebody else than a Finn.
And if your odds are 1/6, it is reasonably good chance compared to those who do not go through courses
-Haha, look for another idiot. I won’t waste my time anymore in this county. Why should I live like a beggar in Finland if I can have a better life at home? Even the official unemployment rate is 2 times less in the area where I com from than for Finland (and we have 11% immigrants there)
50% of all immigrants in Helsinki are unemployed. And I don’t want to know what those 50% are doing who have a job here.
Tiwaz
January 21, 2011
-”Maybe you have tomatoes on your eyes but if you look at the second figure then you will realize that these are percentages.”
No, maybe you should go back to school. What you have given is absolute number of foreigners, then their percentage of total amount of foreigners and what has been change.
Which tells us nothing of their education for one.
-”Haha are you kidding? In Germany they would say that I am overskilled for all those shit jobs I have applied here. Some “professionals” can not even speak English here and call themselves “professionals” nor have they ever worked with somebody else than a Finn.”
So having worked with someone who is not a Finn is now definition of professional?
How stupid you would have to be to think that… Professional is professional, even if they had lived in a cave. Nationalities of those you have worked with have nothing to do with your professional competence. Same with English. If your duties happen to be such that they do not require fluent English, then English is no measure of your competence.
As for what you would be in Germany… Well, sunshine, you ain’t in Kansas anymore. Your competences have dropped dramatically since you clearly:
A) Do not have competence in field where Finnish would not be vital
B) Do not speak Finnish.
Note from the Editor: I have had to censor quite a few lines here because the thread is rude and uses profane language.
xyz
January 21, 2011
Tiwaz, the second figure represents the percentage of the absolute number. Of course they dont say anything about education but this was not the point.
Honestly speaking, I don’t care anymore if I have the competencies since I dont think this is an attractive country for expats and I don’t really feel getting old here. They dont even have a working concept here how to integrate foreigners. 1 out of 6 who find a job after completing a language course? Better start playing lottery. There are no jobs here and there will be no jobs here in the future. They could market this country as an elderly home in the future.
Precious
January 31, 2011
Unfortunately, the comments are far too many for me to read, although it would be very interesting to read everybody’s opinion. I am not writing in order to critisize anybodys’ opinion, I just want to express mine as a possible future resident of Finland.
I come from a mediterranean country. What I have understood about people, is that although we believe we are different, we are all the same, no matter what stereotypes are spread around the world for each nation. What I mean is that, in my country, we have a very big percentage of racists, although many citizens of my country had gone abroad and were in the same position with immigrants living here now.
Moreover, although people in my country are considered to be extroverted and hospitable, I may claim that I do not come across with polite and warm behaviour everyday. I confront racist behaviour even if I am a native of this country. I may be discriminated because I am a woman, or because I do not come from a rich family, or because I studied a science that is considered appropriate for males, or because I have attractive physical traits and therefore, I cannot be smart.
What I infer with all the above is that wherever you go, even if all the world population had the same colour or language or origins, people still would find reasons to form clans of “superiors” or exclude other people as inferiors.
As I said at the first lines, possibly and if I will be accepted by any of the Master Programs I have applied to, I will live in Finland in a few months. My country does not offer studies in the scientific area I prefer. If finally my plans go as I want, I will be glad for both making my dream come true studying what I want, and moving to a country with a high reputation in quality of living.
I started searching for life in Finland and I came across this article, and now I feel confused. As many Finns are commenting, it would be very interesting if they stated what they feel that is annoying about immigrants or what they believe that an immigrants’ behaviour should be.
For example, I didn’t feel very satisfied to those that were ashamed of their origins or when they were speaking their own language when they were in front of natives of my country, which in my opinion is just rude,and is not discriminating of me.
Closing this big comment (and I am sorry if I exhausted you), I hope I will be a good immigrant and a prosperous student. If I have the chance to come, I will come in peace to study, to offer whatever I am able to give to my science and maybe work if I am good in my scientific area.
Thanks for your time.
Enrique
January 31, 2011
Hi Precious, thank you for sharing your views with us and welcome to Migrant Tales. I personally wish you the best of luck in your studies in Finland. I am certain you will perceiver. If you are a woman you will be moving to a country where gender equality is a big issue and taken seriously. Every person does what he or she thinks to adapt and succeed the best in a new country. This blog and the post, Are you a target of racism in Finland?, is the most popular of this blog. The sheer numbers and the comments highlight that their is room for improvement in this area. We’d be interested in hearing about your exploits in Finland and your views about life in these boreal latitudes.
Tiwaz
February 1, 2011
-”As many Finns are commenting, it would be very interesting if they stated what they feel that is annoying about immigrants or what they believe that an immigrants’ behaviour should be.”
Hello precious, and best of luck with your dream.
Regarding this question…
I personally would say that biggest problem immigrant can face is caused by themselves…
They come to Finland and expect everything to be “just like at home”. Often, they could not be more wrong.
Because of this, most important thing for you to do is to always remember that things are different. Not necessary worse or better, but different.
When you first time feel like getting upset because someone is rude to you, stop for a moment and reconsider. Are they being rude to you, or is tradition just different? Odds are, very few people have interest in being rude to you, but cultural differences mean that people doing their things their natural, Finnish, way will be different to what you are used to.
If you do like Enrique and immediately start screaming “RACISM!” on top of your lungs, you will defintely make bad impression of yourself. And that will in turn lead to things getting worse. So before calling something racism, make sure it IS racism, else you end up like that boy who kept crying wolf in the old story.
Beyond that, Finns tend to be very tolerant folk. Or perhaps some would say that we so actively seek to ignore existence of others that it can be mistaken for tolerance.
Which brings us to cultural difference… Private space. Finns have great deal larger area of private space than most other cultures. We tend to get uncomfortable when unknown person is closer than 0,5-1 meter distance from us.
I could recommend you to visit finlandforum.org
It contains lots of people who can help you, and has various stickies with “survival guides” for Finland.
Enrique
February 1, 2011
Tiwaz, I will not comment on your thread. It is sufficient proof to show that your parents did not teach you manners. Oh, right, you do it anonymously with a Hitler youth pseudonym. Private space? Yes, you respect that too by insulting and raging. If there is somebody unfinnish it is your behavior.
GreenApple
February 6, 2011
Daniel
ARE YOU bloody out your mind? “come to russia” Yeah right. i was born and raised in moscow. I am white i am just not russian. I was raised by a russian ordnary nanny so inside i am a russian as russian gets… WHAT i had to put up for 5 years in the 80s, I needed a therapy (which i never got) and years to recover. Russia is VERY racist country. The US is racist as well. Coastal states are more opened. Middle of america is soo backwards!
i am sort of shocked at what Finland is doing.
Enrique
February 6, 2011
Hi GreenApple, thank you for dropping by. Could you elaborate a bit more?
alien
February 8, 2011
Hi Precious:
You are right. Finland is a great country to study and get work experience. The quality of the universities are high. You cannot get much from the teachers, not because they are not knowledgeable, but rather they may not be so good to convey this knowledge. So you have to study and learn things by your hard work. it is a great atmosphere in the academic society. Most of the people are great. A few people may judge you by what they learn from TVs which is negligible. Relatively speaking people are honest and yes tolerant. They might judge you based on their insufficient information, but they are not aggressive and yes very tolerant. So if you work in industry or academia, they treat you fairly. So all together is a nice, calm country with good records regarding the importance of women and their role in society. I hope you get a place to study. Keep a low profile and study well. I hope that some day you will make your country proud. Remember there is a lot to learn from Finns, so do it.
JusticeDemon
February 8, 2011
Tiwaz is a rune symbol that looks like an upward pointing arrow.
This symbol was used by the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hitlerjugend_leistungsbuch_gross.jpg"Hitler youth and appears on the flag and publications of a neo-Nazi organisation in Finland.
The sick individual called Tiwaz who posts regularly on this board has been unable to specify a single point on which she disagrees with the agenda of this neo-Nazi group.
That such fascism continues in 21st century Finland is a matter of shame and embarrassment, which is why Tiwaz not only posts anonymously on this board, but does so from an anonymous proxy server in the Seychelles.
Tiwaz
February 8, 2011
JusticeDemon on other hand sits behind nick because she knows that her unfounded accusations of Nazi connections without any credible arguments in favor would easily end up with her getting sentenced in court for slander.
A.J.
February 26, 2011
Jaska, you wrote the following:
“By the end of the fighting, The Finnish losses we´re around 70 000. The losses of Soviet Union were around 350 – 400 000. The Soviet forces were beaten, the casualties were extremely high, the loss of military equipment almost irreplaceable. The morale had sunk and the spring thaw was coming, making Soviet offensives practically impossible. More than 1/3 of all Soviet troops and over 70% of the Soviet Air Force were concentrated on the Finnish Front and the situation was bogged down. The planned occupation and sovietization of Finland had failed.”
There is a grain of truth in what you say, but about 90% of it is just Finnish propaganda. Even with the disparity in casualties, the Soviets had the numbers and technology to occupy and “Sovietize” Finland had they wanted to. Every historian (outside of Finland, so it seems) understands that. By any measure, the Soviets had won the war with Finland, even though Finns fought bravely, cleverly, and courageously. Stalin simply viewed completely taking over Finland as an unnecessary pain-in-the-butt. That’s because the Soviets got what they had long wanted: The land (most of Karelia), a lot of money (war debt), the YYT treaty (this bound Finland to the USSR for the entire cold war), Soviet-friendly leaders, including the soon-to-be “popularly” elected semi-dictator Kekkonen, and a passive public (news media in general didn’t dare say anything critical of the Soviets). In other words, Finland obeyed the Soviets, so the Soviets left the Finns alone. Had the Finns got a little “frisky” and rebellious, the Soviets would have come in and crushed Finland. Furthermore, keeping Finland “Finnish” had some advantages. The Soviets could use Finland as a way to peer into the Western world and safely keep track of what was going on.
The above analysis I just gave is quite simply the consensus view among practically all historians in the Western world. Finns learn things a little differently, which I presume has to do with self-esteem and other issues. Finns typically have trouble debating issues and dealing with criticism, so it is no surprise that Finns have a rather skewed picture of things. This explains why, for example, Finns have trouble talking about the Finnish civil war, which was mindbogglingly brutal and cruel.
This brings us to the state of Finnish immigration policy. This feeling of Finns wanting things “orderly” and “absolutely obedient” comes from the fact that historically Finland has been occupied for most of it’s recorded history. Finns developed cultural mannerisms to deal with this, which are decidedly non-cosmopolitan. Now, with the new global world order where countries are intricately connected to one another economically and socially, Finns are exhibiting massive growing pains (hence the rise of the True Finn Party, which is sort of like the National Front). I understand this frustration, but things aren’t going back to they way they were. In any case, if Finns really study their history, I doubt they’d want to go back to they way things were. If the True Finns get elected, it won’t do any good for Finland. Trust me. Many writers and thinkers from other countries — including me — are watching closely. If Finnish society continues moving toward a proto-fascist ideology, Finland will be shut out economically and in other ways. And remember, the Finnish economy is completely dependent on the global economy. Enough for today. Now I shall go to the pub and drink a fine Irish beer.
Enrique
February 26, 2011
–I doubt they’d want to go back to they way things were. If the True Finns get elected, it won’t do any good for Finland.
I totally agree. It will be a disaster for Finland as well as for the True Finns, which are already imploding. When I read their campaign manifesto on the role of immigrants in this society, I was amazed by the sheer ignorance and arrogance. But don’t worry, their plan is a non-plan. All they are doing is giving soundbites and reactive statements to that issue.
Taking into account my Finnish and multicultural background, I am insulted by their sheer ignorance. Imagine they still in this globalized world believe in “monoculture.” Monoculture for me is only an excuse to discriminate and exclude immigrants, refugees and other minorities from our society. Fortunately we have the EU, good laws and courts in this country. We also have good people who will not fall for this populist rhetoric.
Larion
March 26, 2011
Hi.
I was born in finland, and my mother is finnish and my Father is Russian and i have been insulted many times by the word “ryssä”. When i hear that word it’s like i’m getting a heart attack. It had became so annoying that i want to leave finland and even change the information in my passport that i was born here. I’m always trying to find someway to leave this country but i’m underaged and i can’t leave. My parents are telling to me that this is “paridise”, but this is not paradise, This is bullshit! I would rather live in a country that has less racism then finland. Sometimes i have a feeling that i hate finns and the finnish culture. I would go anywhere in the world just to get away from finland. Once my mother was attacked by a drunk just because she spoke Russian in her mobile. And people say that this is “paradise”.
Enrique
March 26, 2011
Hi Larion and welcome to Migrant Tales. I know the feeling. I know many teenage students that have your background: one of the parents or both were born elsewhere. But you know that inside you that other part of you, the Russian, is a source of power that those that ridicule you fear. Let me give my example: I grew up in the States and my father spoke to me in Spanish. One day, when I was 15, I met a beautiful Colombian woman who did not speak English. I thought I spoke Spanish but the truth is I only had a passive knowledge of the language. To make a story short: That woman awoke that dormant part of me that for some reason I wasn’t able to nurture and be proud of. For me it was like being born again. I taught myself Spanish and about the land I had forgotten. It changed my life. It was pure power. It brought something to my life I would have never experienced if I would not have “returned to where I was once from.” Don’t let people bully you. Let out the Russian in you and be proud of it like claiming Finland your country at the same time. Don’t let anyone to ever intimidate you.
Larion
March 26, 2011
You are right Enrique. I’m already proud of my Russian roots. I have a Russian flag and the Russian two-headed golden Eagle mini-statue on my desk. I’m a patriot, and i hate nationalism, i belive that all people from all Races and Nations are equal. But still i’m abused by finns(Not by all of them).
Larion
March 27, 2011
Damn it! I have been abused by a finn in the internet. This is soo anooying
Enrique
March 27, 2011
Larion, you guys would be an interesting story for the Finnish media to write. There is a lot written on bullying at school but what about cases like yours and others? Racism is one of the worst social ills because it can destroy lives. Keep a stiff upper lip.
Larion
March 27, 2011
I think that i should talk to some local politicians about this. That could help.
Enrique
March 27, 2011
It wouldn’t be a bad idea, Larion. I think it is an important issue. See what the politicin says. I believe you have an important case concerning why cultural diversity is important.
JusticeDemon
March 28, 2011
Larion
The future in Finland is bright for you, precisely because of your intercultural experiences.
There is a very clear role for you in the Finnish economy. Finland is right next door to a Russian-speaking production and consumer base of more than 150 million people, but very few people in Finland have the skills to harness the economic potential that this fact creates. Finland also desperately needs to cultivate progressive and positive diplomatic and cultural relations to the East, but many Finns are so hopelessly mired in prejudice that they have disqualified themselves from any part in this process. You win by default.
So you are bullied at school. So what? In 20 years you will be earning 20 times more than those bullies in a vocation that offers 20 times more job satisfaction. Businesses will be bidding against each other for your services while remaining fearful that you will set up your own operation and compete against them.
The world divides into people who can do a job and people who can’t. There are already a lot of things that you can do and those bullies cannot do, and in Finland these differences are increasingly important.
Maria
March 30, 2011
After spending two days reading this blog, I am finally ready to post this comment. I find this blog pathetic and insulting towards Finnish people. The only things being said here is how Finns are so bad and racist, have you looked at other places in this world? Racism is everywhere. I am a born Colombian, raised by French standards and leaving in Finland, I was taught how to read first in French and then in Spanish, I am considered myself a multicultural person but it doesn’t change the fact that when I am in Colombia I behave according to Colombian standards, when in France, according to French standards and in Finland according to Finnish standards. I find it out outrageous that you label a whole nation just because some people have had a few bad experiences, like many people have said literally Finland is the most racist country in the world, do you think the situation is better in France? or anywhere else?
I have been living here for 4 years, I am happily married with a pure blood Finn, tall, white, blue eyed, who comes from the north, where pretty much there is no foreigners, and guess what since the first moment they saw me, they have accepted me, my culture, my personality and have done their best to make me feel at home and show me Finnish culture, and I just love it. Not once in Helsinki, at the airport anywhere I have had a nasty remark concerning my origins, in fact the approach Finns have taken is totally different from what I heard in France, Finns first label me as coming from a country where the richest coffee in the world comes from and then they take the time to ask politely about our internal issues, whereas in France I was instantly labeled as a cocaine smuggler of some sort.
I have never had a problem getting my papers, getting services, in fact since I am still learning Finnish, I have not been too diligent with it, I get everything in English, when I go to the store and smile, I get smiles back, when I politely ask for help when I am lost I get it, in fact many times Finnish ladies have approached me and start chatting with me, which usually does not got far in Finnish so they are nice enough to try in English. I have a job place where my French skills where required, so as Tiwaz has been saying it all depends on your employer’s needs, and I reckon that without Finnish skills I might not be able to get anything else. So how come it is different from you than it is for me? maybe it is in you people’s attitude when arriving here, I have plenty of Finnish friends and have establish mutual trust, not once have they told my husband why are you with the foreigner? instead Finns compliment our couple and admire my dark eyes and hair. Many times I have been told I don’t look like average Colombian or Latin people because in fact I am whiter than the average person there, but far from being as white as a Finn. It is not because of that, that I get offended and cry out loud racism, when they tell I am dark, now I understand they refer to my hair and nothing else.
I find also outrageous that Enrique instantly endorses and supports people who say Finland is racist but immediately attacks or plainly ignores Finns and other foreigners who disagree, like Chad, Lucilla, Stifflersdad, etc, and soon me I guess. How come you attack Tiviaz for defending his country but do not say anything when persons like Alien openly and deliberately say that Finns are red faced monkeys suffering from mental diseases and sexually impaired, oh and makes fun of Finnish cultural items like the Pea Soup. Is that ok with you? do you think he is not being racist, when he says that he fucked as many Finnish women as he could and that every foreigner that comes here should do the same? take advantage of the free schooling, take as much as advantage as he can, fuck as many women as he can and then leave. That my friend is racist, discriminative, offensive for women, for Finns and for everybody who appreciates this country. He is the reason why Finns like Tiviaz and Hannu and all those who have commented here exist and I agree with them. I do not want to see Finland turned into France for the sake of multiculturalism. As a matter of fact I have seen many foreigners wreaking havoc here, a black guy tried to rape a woman in our building’s sauna, and guess who stopped him? Finns, one of my husband’s friends, a Finn, got attacked by an Albanian just because, I have been insulted by Romani beggars on the street for not giving them money, I hate it when people just not comply to the rules, something as simple as respecting the queue at the laundry, which is usually totally trampled and ignored by Africans, I hate it when I hear Latins and Colombians have been smuggling cocaine here or in any other country for that sake, and then people wonder why do they hate foreigners? well the answer is simple… because not all foreigners are good, in fact many go abroad for engaging in criminal activities and such, which explains why Latins are not liked in Spain, how many times have I read, in Colombian newspapers btw, how many Colombians have been robbing apartments and engaging in illicit activities in Spain, however Finns have taken the time for accepting me after I have shown that I am not like one of my fellow countrymen, so all of those yelling racism, maybe should be a bit more critical about your behavior in this country, maybe something you are doing is wrong, which you might not notice but for a Finn is obvious. I have actually been called nigger ugly whore by a PERUVIAN, who could not accept the fact that I was telling that Asians and Native Americans are different cultures, she just resorted to open racism and insults, when in fact she was demanding respect for her own kin, quite contradictory huh? I find Latin America far more racist and discriminative than Finns, there you are labeled based on your social status, your last name, the school you go to, you car, etc. Latin countries are openly racist towards other Latin countries, like Peruvians hating on Colombians, Colombians on Venezuelans and Venezuelans on Chileans, for instance and the list goes on and on. I love Finland because none of those things exist and I want to keep it that way, nobody minding my business or life, in other words PRIVACY. Lastly I find it legitimate that Finns what to protect their country, people, culture and themselves from nuisances, and if some foreigners are a nuisance then they need to implement the necessary control mechanisms.
Ultimately none of my foreigner friends are unemployed, I know quite a few Somalis, Latins, Asians, Americans who have secure stable jobs, but guess what they all have adapted a Finnish way of doing things, learned the language and respect their host culture. And now Enrique do not come saying : “see it shows that things can work for immigrants as well, how can we do it for keep pushing this forward?” well it is easy respect the host country, culture and people, work your way towards assimilation, learn the language and be patient. There is no magical ingredient in there. I would like to pinpoint as well than when my 100% Finnish husband goes to Colombia, he behaves according to our norms there, by that I mean kissing, hugging, dancing, being friendlier and talkative and even tries to speak only in Spanish, why would I not do the same in HIS country and act according to Finnish rules? Oh and he answered yes to all the question is your racist test, does that mean he is subject to racism?
This is quite an essay I know, but I could not help the fact that most of the posts here are xenophobic towards Finns and that EVERYWHERE in this world you will find some sort of racism, exclusion, skinheads (which actually also exist in Colombia, quite ridiculous as well, since we are 60% mixed) and that is not even close to change, it is up to the foreigner to do his homework and have him/herself accepted by the locals by observing the proper behavioral codes expected by guess who? the locals, in this case Finns. All the rest is utter bullshit! it is like going to Colombian and expecting to find a job with no Spanish skills, even though one might be a PHD in whatever it is from an university abroad. Actually if I want to work in MY HOME COUNTRY with my Finnish degree, the most likely is that I have to have that degree approved by the Colombian Education minister and it is them who decide if it is equivalent or not by COLOMBIAN STANDARDS, same happens here.
Ok, I will stop now, I could go on and on and on with this.
Maria
March 30, 2011
I meant, my husband’s family have accepted me from the first moment they saw me.
Enrique
March 30, 2011
Hi Maria and thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. I had the opportunity to live in Bogotá for two years as bureau chief for a USAmerican news agency so I am very much aware of the challenges that that country face. Apart from covering the Farc on an almost daily basis, my specialty were softs commodities like coffee. Talk about a polarized society and the role of violence. I feel for the Colombians.
In my opinion, and even though drugs play a big role in the war in Colombia, it is their model of society that is a generator of violence. Too many poor people, chronic social injustice and total disregard by many of the suffering of others. It is an antipathy of Finland. Colombia is a beautiful country but one where its social models leave a lot to be desired. Are you a Rola or Paisa?
But let’s get to some of your points that struck me. I’ll go by them one by one:
–I am considered myself a multicultural person but it doesn’t change the fact that when I am in Colombia I behave according to Colombian standards.
What surprises me is that you do not see anything wrong with Tiwaz behavior and his views. You believe that a person can post a comment, insult people, use foul language and, on top of this, portray himself with Nordic neo-Nazi insignia and we should say nothing.
Tell me, or us, what are Finnish standards? Do you really believe that we who have lived in this country for over thirty years, have Finnish relatives and lived in many countries are as dim as not to understand some “habits of the land?” I think your assumption is offensive because you believe that all people that live in this country don’t have the right to express themselves. It’s a great matter that people can practise their democratic rights, learn how to use them and fight for a place in society.
What does multicultural mean to you? For me it means living in a society where diversity is not only defended but encouraged. This involves groups and individuals.
Do you work? There is a big difference when you have to compete for work and when you get a job keep your head above water. If you work your world will change.
You mentioned a number of times that your children and yourself are “white.” What would happen if you didn’t speak Finnish, were from Colombia and were black? Certainly a lot depends on what kind of a person you are but let’s say it would be tougher.
–do you think he is not being racist, when he says that he fucked as many Finnish women as he could and that every foreigner that comes here should do the same? take advantage of the free schooling, take as much as advantage as he can, fuck as many women as he can and then leave.
Who behaves in this fashion? Why do you point this out to us? If you have read this blog for two days you should at least know what our stance is on human rights and racism. All those things that society offers is there because we pay taxes and because it is our right to have them. Maybe this is a cultural-standard of living thing in Colombia: you have to be grateful because there is so much social inequality.
–because not all foreigners are good, in fact many go abroad for engaging in criminal activities and such, which explains why Latins are not liked in Spain, how many times have I read, in Colombian newspapers.
So what is your point? Because foreigners are “bad” we should be quiet? I am confused by your logic. You probably read a lot of Tony’s comments. I hope you don’t think of Muslims the way he does. Or do you?
– I have been insulted by Romani beggars on the street for not giving them money, I hate it when people just not comply to the rules, something as simple as respecting the queue at the laundry, which is usually totally trampled and ignored by Africans, I hate it when I hear Latins and Colombians have been smuggling cocaine here or in any other country for that sake.
Welcome to the world.
– Lastly I find it legitimate that Finns what to protect their country, people, culture and themselves from nuisances, and if some foreigners are a nuisance then they need to implement the necessary control mechanisms.
I really don’t understand this point. This assumes that foreigners are a threat to the country, right? Or are you seeking only the “good” foreigners to come here. Despite your comment, Finland has already pretty strict laws on immigrants and people who want to move here. I am certain JusticeDemon can fill you in.
–well it is easy respect the host country, culture and people, work your way towards assimilation, learn the language and be patient.
Interesting that you use the word “assimilation.” Could you tell us how assimilation works? Where has it been practised successfully.
–I would like to pinpoint as well than when my 100% Finnish husband goes to Colombia, he behaves according to our norms there, by that I mean kissing, hugging, dancing, being friendlier and talkative and even tries to speak only in Spanish, why would I not do the same in HIS country and act according to Finnish rules?
Good for him. But you point the finger again and claim that we do not. Could you explain how we do not follow the rules of the land?
–This is quite an essay I know, but I could not help the fact that most of the posts here are xenophobic towards Finns and that EVERYWHERE in this world you will find some sort of racism, exclusion, skinheads.
How can we be “xenophobic” if we live in a country inhabited by Finns? I would advise you to study the meaning of that word. Xenophobic: “an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.” Racist? Please, that is the strategy that some xenophibic people use. They consider criticism as racist when, in fact, it is not.
– it is up to the foreigner to do his homework and have him/herself accepted by the locals by observing the proper behavioral codes expected by guess who?
You mentioned this again and I think it is pretty offensive. You are assuming that you “behave” propoerly but we “misbehave” because we debate a real issue in this country. I would consider that the Finnish way unless, of course, you like the True Finns and believe that others can insult immigrants and that minorities should be quiet. Do you like the True Finns. Would you vote for them if you were a citizen?
Please tell us what you mean by “proper behavioral codes?” I am in the dark about what you are saying. I think others too would want to know what they are.
We are grateful for your thoughts but there are some big holes, in my opinon, caused by your assumptions. On this blog almost everyone gets his say, even you. Why? Because we believe in free speech and the right to exercise it. It would be absurd censoring those I don’t like. I am surprised that you would think that way. Those that I have censored have been openly racist. As you know, racism is a crime in Finland punishable by law. It is my job to nip that problem in the bud when it arises.
Welcome to Migrant Tales. We hope that you continue to debate with us openly. Disagreeing has nothing to do with “misbehaving.” Take it as a learning process of becoming a member of society. You debate because you defend your home and values. Now, Maria, you cannot blame a person for speaking up. That is unfair.
Enrique
March 30, 2011
–I meant, my husband’s family have accepted me from the first moment they saw me.
Good for you! I am certain that many of have relatives and friends who have accepted us as well.
Maria
March 31, 2011
You know what Enrique, I think you think you are some sort of mastermind that thinks will solve the problems every immigrant is facing. I am by no means white, I just said whiter than the average Latin, and I have Colombian friends who are black, and are thriving here.
Who behaves in this fashion? Why do you point this out to us? If you have read this blog for two days you should at least know what our stance is on human rights and racism. All those things that society offers is there because we pay taxes and because it is our right to have them. Maybe this is a cultural-standard of living thing in Colombia: you have to be grateful because there is so much social inequality.
I just wanted to pinpoint that the person with the nickname ALIEN, overtly write racist remarks about Finns and YOU don’t tell him anything, he clearly wrote that Finns are red monkey faces with sexual impairments, and that he fucked as many Pia’s and Mia’s as he could, are you forgetting that, o, SE ESTA HACIENDO EL DE LAS GAFAS, COMO DECIMOS EN COLOMBIA.
But when somebody disagrees with you like me or many others here you instantly attack our logic and arguments.
And yes I am grateful that I have been giving the opportunity to live here, even though I did not lack anything back in Colombia, I wanted to see the world. Also what makes you think that by having lived in Colombia for 2 years and some 2o years ago makes you a pro in our matters? what I see here is that if those poor Colombians would come to Finland, without any skill or being illiterate, the chances are that they would face lots of problems, maybe the sames ones that many other let’s say asylum seekers face for the same reason.
You ask what is a Finnish way of doing things, we can start by being quite, calm and polite, HONEST. If you go around yelling, wreaking havoc, and stealing, the chances are the locals won’t like you if they are not used to such behavior.
“Interesting that you use the word “assimilation.” Could you tell us how assimilation works? Where has it been practised successfully.” I am a living example, and some of the people postings here have declared so as well, just in case you ignored that as well, also my Colombian black friends who have been here for ages, they are treated like every other Finn. What you seem to disregard is the fact that going abroad and imposing your own beliefs to the locals will never work, look at France, and I use it as my main example because I spent years there and I was brought up in a French environment. Their society is secular, yet they have to accept that some women wear the niqab in public places when it is clearly stated in the law that you cannot wear any religious symbol in such places, result = all these laws trying to ban the niqab and all the problems around the subject. At least as far as I know I’ve seen many women here wearing a niqab here and nobody seems bothered in the very least by it. Transfer them to France to see how it will work.
Also you totally ignore (I read it somewhere in the blog) the fact that it is true that in France in some places you don’t feel you are there, for example visit the 18e arrondissement in Paris and tell me how French it is, I believe this precisely the phenomenon Finns fear.
– I have been insulted by Romani beggars on the street for not giving them money, I hate it when people just not comply to the rules, something as simple as respecting the queue at the laundry, which is usually totally trampled and ignored by Africans, I hate it when I hear Latins and Colombians have been smuggling cocaine here or in any other country for that sake.
Welcome to the world.
Exactly my point, welcome to the world, not all immigrants are “good” and Finns are entitled to protect themselves and their society against them.
“So what is your point? Because foreigners are “bad” we should be quiet? I am confused by your logic. You probably read a lot of Tony’s comments. I hope you don’t think of Muslims the way he does. Or do you? ”
Why do you totally manipulate and take out of context what people say? I was saying NOT ALL foreigners are good, SOME are bad for the country and those are the ones that should be prevented to come in, GET IT??? Also I don’t agree that muslims should be granted special benefits just because they are muslims, by special benefits I mean, separate swimming pool hours exclusive for muslim women, the removal of pork in school canteens and the fact that nobody can mention or joke about Mohamed, I was nothing but shocked when I saw what happened in Uppsala University, those muslims were behaving like barbarians, yelling things in Arabic and resorting to open aggression, do you think that Finns should put up with that as well? and the reality is that many muslims go to secular countries and expect to have special benefits just because they are muslims. NO I DONT AGREE WITH THAT I DONT ENDORSE IT AND THOSE PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED HERE.
“How can we be “xenophobic” if we live in a country inhabited by Finns? I would advise you to study the meaning of that word. Xenophobic: “an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.” Racist? Please, that is the How can we be “xenophobic” if we live in a country inhabited by Finns? I would advise you to study the meaning of that word. Xenophobic: “an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.” Racist? Please, that is the strategy that some xenophibic people use. They consider criticism as racist when, in fact, it is not. They consider criticism as racist when, in fact, it is not”
I was not referring to you but many of the people commenting here and telling that Finland is the most racist country in the world, how bad Finns are, how much low self-esteem they have, etc, etc. Those are the real racist.
Also I will use your own argument against you: “They consider criticism as racist when, in fact, it is not.” exactly when Finns say that you should not be loud for example, they are criticising, not being racist! And that is the main issue I see here: you cannot tell anything to somebody who is black or arab or african, because they inmediately label you as racist. Now you cannot call black people black, because you are a racist, when in fact THAT IS THEIR SKIN COLOR, why can you call a white, “white” and they do not go yelling racism, but refer to a black person as “yes the black man sitting above” and that’s it you are a racist.
“Good for him. But you point the finger again and claim that we do not. Could you explain how we do not follow the rules of the land?” You don’t get it do you? Te lo voy a decir en español a ver si entiendes mejor. El problema no esta en ser extranjero, el problema esta en no respetar y exigir mas de la cuenta, que tal que cuando mi esposo va a colombia, exigiera un sauna, o mämmi o que la gente le hable en finés? no, asi no funcionan las cosas, lo mismo pasa aca, a ningun finlandes le va a gustar que un extenjero llegue a exigir concesiones por ser musulman, llegue a utilizar la “malicia indigena” y llegue a hacer de las suyas, no aprenda el idioma y exija un empleo y eso desafortunadamente es lo que algunos extranjeros hacen en el país que los recibe y eso es lo que los Finlandeses no quieren.
Last but not least, I do have a job and I have another interview next Monday. The immigrant spouse does have a job.
Wake up call for you: NEVER NOT ONCE IN THE HISTORY OF HUMAN KIND 2 CULTURES HAVE BEEN ABLE TO COEXIST TOGETHER, THERE IS ALWAYS ONE TRYING TO DECIMATE THE OTHER. EXAMPLES: THE INCA REALM WAS CONSTANTLY DECIMATING THE NEIGHBORING TRIBES, COLONIZATION, TURKS, VIKINGS, ETC.
So this multiculturalism illusion is just that an illusion, a UTOPIA, that will never take place.
Enrique
March 31, 2011
–NEVER NOT ONCE IN THE HISTORY OF HUMAN KIND 2 CULTURES HAVE BEEN ABLE TO COEXIST TOGETHER, THERE IS ALWAYS ONE TRYING TO DECIMATE THE OTHER. EXAMPLES: THE INCA REALM WAS CONSTANTLY DECIMATING THE NEIGHBORING TRIBES, COLONIZATION, TURKS, VIKINGS, ETC.
María, we live in the twenty-first century not in the past. The world is globalized and there are things like Ryanair that can fly you cheaply anywhere in Europe. It is surprising that you make such a statement considering that you are a Latin American. Could this be one of the root of the racism you spoke of in Latin America?
The argument that multiculturalism does not work or that one group is, as you mentioned, “barbarian,” is a good example of one of the problems of the ongoing debate. I am not referring to you, but far-right anti-immigration parties use this argument constantly. They demonize a group and then they are able to justify their racism and hatred. Thus: I can hate you because you are a monster. Do you know María about our laws and what social equality means? Have you ever taken the opportunity to study the Non-Discrimination Act or our Constitution? You should because it should be a part of every immigrants standard knowledge of Finland.
You have a right to your opinions, but I think it is out of place for you to impose concepts that exclude others. One of these is assimilation. If you had read the constitution and the laws of our land and of the EU you will have noticed that people have the right to maintain their culture. Certainly people adapt but they should never, ever give up who they are. There are countless studies that show that if you destroy a person’s identity through assimilation you destroy self-esteem and his/her chances of integrating into society. That is why enforcing and encouraging a person’s identity is important.
Your view of society is very different from the some of us. I feel very comfortable with my multicultural identity and in a society that is culturally diverse. It is the most normal thing. And there are many examples that people can live together in culturally diverse societies. Apart from the Ottoman Empire up to the mid-nineteenth, Argentina is an example: in the 1914 census 49.3% of the population of Buenos Aires was foreign. Did they end up going after each other’s throat? No they didn’t. There are other countries like Canada, United States and Australia. Why are some European countries having a problem with this? Because racism and xenophobia have been a close part of their histories. Look at World War 2 or even the former Yugoslavia. But people can learn and they must if they want to build a prosperous future.
In the thirty years I have lived in Finland, I have rarely met foreigners who act disrespectfully, are lazy and speak loud in the street.
Perdoname, María, no entiendo tu argumento cuando hablas de actuar como un finlandés. Creo que hay algunas reglas pero nada concreto. Hay diferentes situaciones y diferentes maneras de comportarse. Tienes que tener cuidado cuando hablas en términos generales sobre una cultura. Cultura es algo muy complejo y cambia constantemente.
With respect to Alien I agree but you have to look at what happened to him in Finland. Tiwaz, whom you seem to like, is many times worse. But you are right: debate should be on a civil level.. And fortunately the grand majority of us do that, even Alien. Whenever Tiwaz is not grouping immigrants into one bag and insulting them, he can make some good points.
Enrique
March 31, 2011
–You know what Enrique, I think you think you are some sort of mastermind that thinks will solve the problems every immigrant is facing.
Where have I said this. I am only one opinion.
Tiwaz
March 31, 2011
“Whenever Tiwaz is not grouping immigrants into one bag and insulting them, he can make some good points.”
Ah, but when Alien does this it is A-OK (Famous Enriqe double standards at work).
Where can you point to me that I have bagged all immigrants in one bag? I have repeatedly made it clear that I have nothing against immigrants who come to Finland with goal of integrating and adjusting to Finnish society. People like Maria are ones I want to see MORE in Finland.
And less people like you Enrique.
-”María, we live in the twenty-first century not in the past. The world is globalized and there are things like Ryanair that can fly you cheaply anywhere in Europe.”
Which changes nothing. Some things do not change with time. Cultural conflict is one of those. Today these conflicts are only increasing as people of incompatible cultural traditions get together that much more easily, and multiculturalists pretend that both can have their way at same time in same situation.
-”You believe that a person can post a comment, insult people, use foul language and, on top of this, portray himself with Nordic neo-Nazi insignia and we should say nothing. ”
And what have you said to Alien who has been posting insults? Or JD who is constantly offensive in his posts.
As for your once more stupid obsession with my nick. Are you aware, that I post in variety of forums all over with this same nick, I do not hide my view on multiculturalism and only you accuse me of being nazi.
You have zero grounds to actually do that, your accusation is without grounds. Not to mention that you clearly still fail to grasp that history of word Tiwaz (Teiwaz etc) FAR exceeds that of nazi regime. I have also told you that I have not chosen my nick due to that connection.
You know all this, but still insist on continuing this charade because you know you cannot meet my arguments with valid counterarguments. So instead you rely on traditional multiculturalist defence.
“Scream nazi on top of your lungs and pretend that invalidates everything spoken.”-tactic.
I would be much more inclined to be more polite if you did not repeat same arguments people have proven false. Take a look at yourself Enrique.
Enrique
March 31, 2011
–And less people like you Enrique.
Here is where you hit the wall, fall on your back. Stop attacking and get rid of that Tiwaz thing. It bothers a lot of us. It was like JusticeDemon said: It’s like calling you Treblinka. When you speak of Finland as an “indigenous group” or call “immigrants racists” because they speak out against this social ill, you always end up flirting, and sometimes crossing, that line over to racism.
Why don’t you get rid of that Tiwaz name and join us. A new name could probably turn you into a new person.
Maria
April 1, 2011
María, we live in the twenty-first century not in the past. The world is globalized and there are things like Ryanair that can fly you cheaply anywhere in Europe. It is surprising that you make such a statement considering that you are a Latin American. Could this be one of the root of the racism you spoke of in Latin America?
I don’t see why you throw Ryanair in this conversation, it does not have anything to do with the certainty that SOME immigrants are a source of problems.
And I am surprise you failed to acknowledge the results of colonization, Native Americans were decimated by the invaders, I should not even speak Spanish, and I believe this colonization period is a source of the racism in Latin America, the few natives left are still holding grudges towards Spain, and everything that is white.
And I am surprised you blindly close your eyes to the several cases where having two cultures trying to coexist PEACEFULLY has not worked. Just an example, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, if I understood well, Israel was a state created in the 2oth century for Jews and after the 2nd world war, and Palestinians suddenly had no land where to live, of course both sides are not happy with situations like this.
And of course the conflict is more difficult that it appears to be, still I believe that his utopian view that people can peacefully coexist with totally different ways of doing things is just that Utopian, even animals display territoriality. Or when do you see an alpha male peacefully coexisting with other alpha males. And do not tell me that we are humans and we can change and adapt, we humans still keep some animalistic instincts from the pre-historic times.
The argument that multiculturalism does not work or that one group is, as you mentioned, “barbarian,”
I am not labeling the whole of Islam as barbarian, I was referring to the exact example of what happened in the university of Uppsala in Sweden, here is a reminder:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyti2oVLbOM
I labelled them, those on the video, as barbarians because their behavior is nothing else than that. In my head I cannot understand that when you are in country like Sweden, which is not a Muslim majority country and you are supposed to have freedom of speech and are entitled not to respect the same figures than muslims if you are not one of them, you cannot do what Lars Vilks did.
His video was certainly provocative and maybe he was deliberately being provocative to illustrate some point about freedom of speech, but the muslim’s audience’s behavior was terrible, shocking, they totally forgot that they were in Sweden, why did they react like if they would be indoctrinated?
I as a catholic, if the video would have been about Jesus being homosexual, first of all I would have left the room, second I would have filed a complaint somewhere so that Vilks but have been reprimanded and making him realize that what he did was wrong, but I would threaten him with death, but now with that attitude on behalf of the muslims, no wonder people don’t like them and feel that they are all the same.
As I told you my best friend is Muslim and she found the video insulting as well but did not endorse the muslim’s reactions either.
As you see, when people here talk about Muslims and their fears of them it is not fear of Islam as a whole, but fears of extremists, and that is a threat no matter the religion you belong to. I am scared of them as well, and so is my muslim friend, in fact she doesn’t even consider those people real muslims.
You have a right to your opinions, but I think it is out of place for you to impose concepts that exclude
others. One of these is assimilation.
I have not lost my identity, I am quintessentially Colombian, but as I told you I am not whining and demanding to have things here that I had in my country and I don’t have here anymore, why would I go around demanding to have more catholic churches for example. As I told you in my post, when in France I behave like French, when in Colombia, Colombian, and when in Finland I try to emulate Finns, of course in the public sphere, for example when looking for a job, asking for papers, meeting new Finns, I do not jump at them for kissing if I do not know them, I France you kiss everybody the first time you meet them. In my private life and with my friends I am Colombian, make Colombian food, try to go to church, although it is far, there is only 2 in Helsinki, listen to Colombian music, speak Spanish, etc. Actually I think I have a higher self-esteem now than before, Finns have always been very welcoming, I actually lived for a while in Raahe with my husband and the only foreigners were pretty much: the Chinese at the only Chinese restaurant, one or two Africans and me, and I did not notice the staring people mentioned or any sort of disdain, in fact I was surprised that Finns both male and female, and of course not all, were sometimes telling how beautiful I was, and telling my husband how beautiful his wife is….I mean maybe there were hypocrites and I am an idiot and I do not read well body language, but seriously until stumbling upon this blog I had not realized the staring thing. All of this for saying that everytime I heard a compliment, it made me proud of being Colombian.
Then again maybe my case is the exception to the rule, if I based my history on the things people have shared here.
Certainly people adapt but they should never, ever give up who they are.
As I told you I have never given up who I am.
There are countless studies that show that if you destroy a person’s identity through assimilation you destroy self-esteem and his/her chances of integrating into society
As somebody pinpointed here assimilation has to be come from the will of the person, for example the example I gave you of my Brazilian black and gay friend.
Certainly if assimilation is forced it does not work, I think it works the other way around as well if the locals are forced to accept everything the non-locals do, then you can be sure you will have troubles between them.
There are other countries like Canada, United States and Australia.
There is a myriad of problems regarding immigration in the USA as least, lots of ghettos, gangs, illegals, etc, those are, I guess, the negative aspects of not controlling who crosses the borders.
Actually USA has a fair share of responsibility in it as well, when I went through Miami I was surprised to see that after crossing the immigration police, you are virtually out of the airport, so if I would have liked I could’ve stayed there and nobody would have noticed, so no wonder tourists do not leave, in some cases haha!
Perdoname, María, no entiendo tu argumento cuando hablas de actuar como un finlandés. Creo que hay algunas reglas pero nada concreto. Hay diferentes situaciones y diferentes maneras de comportarse. Tienes que tener cuidado cuando hablas en términos generales sobre una cultura. Cultura es algo muy complejo y cambia constantemente.
Ya te explique arriba en inglés, osea hay ciertas sutilezas que uno debe entender, y asimilar para que los demas no lo miren a uno como bicho raro. Como te digo jamás he tenido ningún problema aquí, ni en Francia, ni en USA, nunca, y no sé por qué para mi las cosas funcionan diferente, creo que es un problema de actitud por parte y parte y me parece que muchas veces la baja-autoestima de la que hablas, esta presente en un número de immigrantes que a su vez son excluídos. La única vez que alguién me ha tratado de racista fue en Francia y fue un arabe, y eso que soy 1/4 arabe si hablo de mi génetica, tenía un student job y distribuía periódicos, como Metro. Un día después de estar parada como dos horas entregando papelitos, salío un arabe del metro y me rapo el papel, obviamente yo no le dije gracias, el tipo se paro al lado de la entrada del metro, al rato salió un abuelito francés y con una gran sonrisa me recibió el papel y me dijo: ” es para mi? gracias”, obviamente yo le sonreí y le dije gracias tambíen, el arabe escucho y se devolvió, me empezo a gritar de todo por no haberle dicho gracias, a pesar de que el me rapó el papel y ni me miro, y empezó a gritar que era una perra racista, yo me quedé o__O, me empujo, me tiro todos los papeles al suelo, hasta que q mi se me saltó la copa y le metí su empujón y le dije que si no se daba cuenta que yo también era immigrante como él, después me fuí y llamé a mi jefe y le dije lo que había pasado.
Todo esto para decirte que creo que él que sufría de poca autoestima, era él. Y así ví muchos casos similares en Francia.
With respect to Alien I agree but you have to look at what happened to him in Finland. Tiwaz, whom you seem to like, is many times worse. But you are right: debate should be on a civil level.. And fortunately the grand majority of us do that, even Alien. Whenever Tiwaz is not grouping immigrants into one bag and insulting them, he can make some good points.
Alien, from what I understood, was having a pretty normal life here until he decided to apply for citizenship, then when he had it denied and all the ordeal happened he was bitter about it, obviously. Still that does not give him any right for telling that Finland is MENTAL HOSPITAL and all what he has said. It is the same attitude that you say Finns have when they label a whole group just because of the mistakes of one individual, Finns should not do it, nor should people like Alien.
I haven’t seen that Tiwaz is grouping immigrants in the same group, he has always said that come here, learn the language, respect the culture and you’ll do fine, I agree with him 100% and that is what people like me, or Tony or others have done.
Also why are you accusing him of being Nazi, do you know him personally? Just because he uses the nickname Tiwaz that does not automatically mean he is Nazi. I did not know what a Tiwaz was until now and I googled it and it has been present in Nordic poems and stuff like that well before it was adopted as a neo-nazi symbol. Some of you were discussing that it is not the word itself but how do you use it, same with symbols, and Enrique you have said that you give the benefit of doubt to immigrants, why don’t you use the same logic with Tiwaz?
Also I read the post about deporting immigrant criminals from Switzerland, and you did not agree, what do you think about this then:
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/30/china.philippine.executions/index.html
I think it is fair to deport criminal immigrants, how would you react if one of them would rape and kill, your baby daughter, wife, sister, mum or any of your family members?
Maria
April 1, 2011
OH MY GOD!!! LOOK WHAT I FOUND!!
http://news.maars.net/blog/2011/03/18/victims-indentified-as-family-of-rabbi-fogel-of-yeshiva-itamar/
It is graphic, it is atrocious, but see not all Muslims are good!!! we need to do something about it!
I mean I do not know what to think anymore, this world is upside down, I hope the Mayan prophecy will take place in 2012, not even animals behave like this.
Maria
April 1, 2011
This made me laugh
I think they might be right
Enrique
April 1, 2011
What is the point of this clip? Why do you think it is important for us to listen to?
Enrique
April 1, 2011
–It is graphic, it is atrocious, but see not all Muslims are good!!! we need to do something about it!
María, I am a bit surprised. I think you are going to have a hard time pushing the “well since we are a bit racist we can be racist” bit here. People have travelled a lot, taken up social causes, studied immigration, been immigrants…
Enrique
April 1, 2011
–It is graphic, it is atrocious, but see not all Muslims are good!!! we need to do something about it!
María, I am a bit surprised. I think you are going to have a hard time pushing the “well since we are a bit racist we can be racist” bit here. People have travelled a lot, taken up social causes, studied immigration, are immigrants…
Enrique
April 1, 2011
–And I am surprise you failed to acknowledge the results of colonization, Native Americans were decimated by the invaders, I should not even speak Spanish, and I believe this colonization period is a source of the racism in Latin America, the few natives left are still holding grudges towards Spain, and everything that is white.
What kind of freaks me out is that your views are very much from the far-right anti-immigration camp. Maybe you don’t notice this, maybe you do. It is tragic what happened to the Amerindians in the Americas but it is easy to spot the crocodile tears. The extremists in Finland call themselves “indigenous” and you and I know this is a joke. Do you really think that the far-right feels for these Amerindians? How can they hate otherness and justify exclusion of certain groups and then claim to be in favor of the Amerindian. The truth is that these people don’t know what they are talking.
One of the matters that is going to happen this century in Latin America are that the Amerindians will rise and demand their identity back. Now, in your world and reasoning, they should assimilate to European-Latin American ways; they don’t have that right. They are wrong because they demand their identity back. If you think of it, there is no difference with a person that moves to a country today and who wants to keep his identity. So, as you can see, this is the huge hole in the far-right immigrant argument. Does it make sense: Poor Amerindians (crocodile tears) but everyone must assimilate to us. If these guys were colonizing the Americas in the 16th century, they would have turned the continent into a slaughter house.
You wanted an example of how deadly assimilation is, take a look at the Amerindians today.
Maria
April 1, 2011
Why do you take everything so seriously, I saw the clip, I found it funny, wanted to share it. I did not mean anything bad…Gosh.
And the article I said atrocious because unless you don’t agree with me, it is atrocious to kill innocent children, may them be Palestinian or Israeli, for two seconds I thought that muslims are guilty because the article said the murder was possibly committed by Palestinians, then I thought about how those Palestinians suffer in Gaza, so in the end I am kinda disappointed with the human species as a whole, for millenia, we have been only destroying and killing everything around us, including ourselves.
Violence generates more violence: “I hate you because you are this or that…. so I hate you too because you told me I was this or that….” Which is a bit the point made in the musical.
And hence my last post: I hope mother natures wipes us out from the face of this planet in 2012, only animals deserve this planet, not us.
I am bit tired of the posts here, it doesn’t seem to go anywhere, people hating on each other because they do not agree….
As somebody on my FB put it:
“Regardless of who the parents were or what they have done in their lives, the blood of innocents is now on the hands of the ones who committed these crimes. Children live without borders, they live without racism, they live without greed or pride. The exist in the environment they have with no notion as to the whys. Enough death and blood and pain. Enough “dying for the cause”…enough “killing for your beliefs”. Enough unaware lives being snuffed out for the follies of elders. Be kind to one another.”
I wish you good luck in your quest, although sincerely I do not think you will succeed, that will require a massive moral shift of the human race, sad but true: HATE IS EVERYWHERE.
Maria
April 1, 2011
Oh and if I could i would like to live like the Arahuacos, Kuna, or any other tribe in Colombia, they have far more respect for this planet than anybody else, they know they are one with nature and respect it and respect one another, if they claim their identity back I’d be more than happy to join them and live without all this nonsense that modern society has created.
Bye!!!
Enrique
April 1, 2011
Que pases un buen fin de semana, María. Tomas panela?
Maria
April 1, 2011
Oye Enrique tienes un mail o algo, encontré otro video, q me gustaría que vieras, pero no sé si ponerlo aca es lo más adecuado.
Tiwaz
April 1, 2011
-”Here is where you hit the wall, fall on your back.”
Actually, only in your imagination..
-”Stop attacking and get rid of that Tiwaz thing. It bothers a lot of us.”
Why? Nobody but you and JD have issue with it, and neither of you had issue with it until JD started googling the net trying to find something to attack me with (or how else he “by coincidence” might have ended up there?).
I am not giving up nick I have used for well over a decade, and which has it’s roots deep in nordic (but not Finnish, admitted, but unlike you try to claim, I have nothing against foreign things) mythology.
What if I switched my nick to Volkswagen? Would you have issue with that? Or do you have issues with owners and workers of Volkswagen? If not, then you are hypocrite. Volkswagen, unlike Tiwaz, was FOUNDED by nazis. It was born out of nazi trade union.
What if I would choose nick S? That is already half of SS! Oh yes, and while on your ridiculous crusade, you might want to go talk to Finnish military. SA-Int.. SA! Oh the horror!
Tiwaz, or Tyr as more commonly known, was amusingly god in mythology who was prepared to sacrifice his hand to bind great wolf Fenrir/Fenris. In this blog, I can relate to the fellow actually, because sometimes this blog feels like it when I try to remind you folks of your rather racist attitude against Finns.
-”It was like JusticeDemon said: It’s like calling you Treblinka.”
And you have no problem with HIS nick? Demon, creature of absolute evil…
Once you make him change his nick, I might consider mine.
-”When you speak of Finland as an “indigenous group””
So you deny that Finns are indigenous group of Finland? I demand to see your evidence! Because there is none! Finns ARE indigenous inhabitants of this country, ones who migrated after glacier receded.
-”or call “immigrants racists” because they speak out against this social ill, you always end up flirting, and sometimes crossing, that line over to racism.”
Because in your twisted mind immigrants cannot be racists. They CAN, and like you, many ARE.
Immigrant is not immune to being racist, in fact, they very commonly are racist. This is due to phase two of cultural shock:
Stage 2 – Withdrawal
The individual now has some more face to face experience of the culture and starts to find things different, strange and frustrating.
They:
. Find the behaviour of the people unusual and unpredictable
. Begin to dislike the culture and react negatively to the behaviour
. Feel anxious
. Start to withdraw
. Begin to criticize, mock or show animosity to the people
Some people jump directly to this phase, some never leave this place. They are racists. You, I am guessing, have through your own rather foolish faith in failed ideology of multiculturalism returned to this phase.
You accuse me of being racist when out of two of us, _I_ am the one who is giving equal treatment to ALL sides. You are trying to apply different rules with your racist attitude.
In Finland, Finnish culture, language and rules. In Britain, British culture, language and rules. In Slovakia, Slovakian culture, language and rules. If Finn moving to one of those cannot accept those, they get no more sympathy from me than Mongol who would come to Finland to whine how things are not done right.
Immigrants adjust to natives, not other way around. That is clear, simple and WORKING method of solving cultural clash. But you refuse to accept this because YOU are racist and believe that Finns have no right to their own culture, society and language IN OUR OWN HOME!
Immigrants can, and are, racists. Not all, but some. And they are ones who are most vocal whiners.
alien
April 3, 2011
Hi Every one:
After some time it seems that I need to write a few lines to clarify things.
I the last few post I was referred to by Maria in few occasions. I intend to believe that Maria is who she is, and not a SUPO employee or Migri employee, or Police or some Finnish authority’s employee who tries to make up the face of Finnish system(Finland as a nation has never been under my critiques, it’s only the system that I have criticized). I have my doubts because her racist views about the look, assimilation and about the impossibilities of co-existence between people and cultures is all over this blog. Maria sees accurately what she like to see, and when it comes to sound facts about the people problem, she tries to dodge it. OK Mr SUPO or Ms Maria here we go:
- .. say anything when persons like Alien openly and deliberately say that Finns are red faced monkeys suffering from mental diseases and sexually impaired, oh and makes fun of Finnish cultural items like the Pea Soup. Is that ok with you? do you think he is not being racist, when he says that he fucked as many Finnish women as he could and that every foreigner that comes here should do the same? take advantage of the free schooling, take as much as advantage as he can, fuck as many women as he can and then leave. That my friend is racist, discriminative, offensive for women, for Finns and for everybody who appreciates this country. He is the reason why Finns like Tiviaz and Hannu and all those who have commented here exist and I agree with them. I do not want to see Finland turned into France for the sake of multiculturalism.
Insulting and offense: Well Maria no body said there is cookies distributed in fight. I am a person with ability to reason and discuss things without fighting and insulting. But if some people think they are privileged because of their skin tone and height and weight, or they are true Finns and justify to put immigrants down, then I guess it is the time to let them know that if you insult you will be insulted. So when some of your blue eye, white people make fun of my my roots, my country, my culture, I have the equal right to hit them back with the words of the same nature. This is called my friend human right, where self defense in every level is legitimate. Off course I would rather to discuss things and to be nice with people, but unfortunately the number of Finns or Finn lovers who can discuss things without having any right granted for them and only for them, is a few. In those cases you would see that I have been nice and fair.
In addition to that I have not let that the atrocity of Finnish system against immigrants make me to ignore the good things about Finland. Yes there are good things about Finland that I have tried to learn and have admitted here and if you have spent 2 days on this blog, you should have seen it.
To use the school system; Well I think if you have taken part 2 times in Finnish entrance exams and admitted a place both times, have got a B.Sc. in computer engineering and a M.Sc. from Helsinki university of technology, with honor, and have passed 10 cu of post-graduate studies before they say you may not continue because you have no Finnish passport and this PDH position is for citizens, then you are entitle to take advantage of the system. Well, in most country, if a refugee goes to a country and in 10 years he/she get 2 university degrees and 8 years working experience, she/ he will be appreciated, encouraged and awarded. They would not call it taking advantage. But if the system such as Finnish system deal with the immigrants the way he did to me, then I guess it gives the immigrants all the rights to get the legitimate advantages and then the least is leave that country. I again encourage those who think the changes in Finland is too slow that wait for that, educate yourself, get experiences and then create a better living conditions for your self. Be some one and throw their social security system into their face as I did. Assimilation? well if you have some thing better that I already am, them I am ready to upgrade, otherwise I am not ready to be downgraded.
– I just wanted to pinpoint that the person with the nickname ALIEN, overtly write racist remarks about Finns and YOU don’t tell him anything, he clearly wrote that Finns are red monkey faces with sexual impairments, and that he fucked as many Pia’s and Mia’s as he could, are you forgetting that, o, SE ESTA HACIENDO EL DE LAS GAFAS, COMO DECIMOS EN COLOMBIA.
- well again you hit me I hit you back, that is the discipline and Finns understand force better than any thing. You can repeat the story about Pia, and Mia over and over, but believe me Pia and Mia did not see that very offensive and they were very pleased about that. I am certain after a few years living with your blue-eye, tall, white husband you realize what I am saying.
–NEVER NOT ONCE IN THE HISTORY OF HUMAN KIND 2 CULTURES HAVE BEEN ABLE TO COEXIST TOGETHER, THERE IS ALWAYS ONE TRYING TO DECIMATE THE OTHER. EXAMPLES: THE INCA REALM WAS CONSTANTLY DECIMATING THE NEIGHBORING TRIBES, COLONIZATION, TURKS, VIKINGS, ETC.
It is totally not true. The history of tolerating other cultures and multiculturalism goes back to 1000 of years ago. The first human rights chart or one of the first one is issued in the name of Cyrus the Great which I have the honor to be of his descendants. Before Cyrus the world was more like you saying, the superior kills and win it all. but when the Cyrus defeated the Babylonia king and started ruling most of the world in 25 century ago, he announced that every one is free to have what ever religion, and whatever views or traditions. That is why you have him in old testament as the liberator of Jews. For 300 years before the Alexander invasion, Persian empire ruled from China to north of Africa to north of Greece and Baltic area. This routine was practiced again from 100BC to invasion of Arabs and Islam. So it has been possible and it is possible. USA, Australia, Canada are also among the todays world where people from diffident background living with each other. Mentioning some one is pure Australian, Canadian, or American is so primitively absurd which means the narrator is either too uneducated or simply has lot of ethnic complexes and insecurities.
–
Alien, from what I understood, was having a pretty normal life here until he decided to apply for citizenship, then when he had it denied and all the ordeal happened he was bitter about it, obviously. Still that does not give him any right for telling that Finland is MENTAL HOSPITAL and all what he has said. It is the same attitude that you say Finns have when they label a whole group just because of the mistakes of one individual, Finns should not do it, nor should people like Alien.
Again you are dodging. Now you don’t see what they did to me in Finland. So here is what they did to me once more again:
It is not the citizenship only. Though by not giving me the citizenship, I could not continue PHD, I could not get the job opportunity, scholarship outside Finland, I could not elect or be elected and so many other privileges that a citizen could have. They had no reason to ignore my case legally, in order to do that, they labeled me “A threat against the Finland’s security and public order” without mentioning one simple reason or proof. A verdict so unjust that even the judiciary system said it is rediculous, and according to the constitution every one is innocent unless proven guilty in court of law. Supo and Migri started a campaign and pressured the judiciary system that if they try to investigate the case and not blind-foldedly accept their assessment without a reason, they stop working on immigrant cases. As shamefully as it is for Finland and Finns the supreme court of Finland voted in favor of Supo and mentioned that SUPO need not to bring up with a fact or reason and their verdict is Final. This shame for Finland as a country who is ready to circumvent its constitution in order to heal his pride hurt by an arrogant immigrant, was so obvious that some Finnish expert called it shameful and a loss for law and order. I have posted some links regarding that.
That was not all, based on this baseless verdict, I was fired from my company because I could not pass the Supo security check. So my 10 years of hard studying and work experience was down to drain. What shall I do? What kind of job should I take? how should I support my family? So this country blames that immigrants are incapable and under-qualified and when some one works as hard as I have, they destroy his life like this. So Maria; You dont need to believe in multiculturalism, it is too early for you. If you are not a Supo agent who knows Spanish, only be a fair human being. With any shred of humanity if exist in you, what you call it? Is not this a pure case of atrocity against immigrants? If a immigrant do some thing wrong, he is punished 10 times harder that a Finn, is that too much to ask for the legitimate rights and benefits for the immigrants? Is that too much to ask not to destroy people’s life? So Maria, this is the story behind my case. Finns can shove their nationality in their asses, but they cannot use inhumane means to destroy peoples life because their complexed aspiration are not thoroughly pleased.
And by the way Maria, you have one vote and I have one. Lets people judge about who is right or wrong.
Enrique my friend your response is well-based and profound and is not hidden to our eyes. I cannot put the words as accurately and reasonably as you do, but I appreciate your efforts because we all benefit from it.
Enrique
April 3, 2011
–Enrique my friend your response is well-based and profound and is not hidden to our eyes. I cannot put the words as accurately and reasonably as you do, but I appreciate your efforts because we all benefit from it.
Alien you are too kind. Thanks to everyone we have turned this blog into a humble voice against the intolerance we find in Finland. Here we can speak out because nobody would do that for us. Don’t forget us! Drop by more often! Your view is important to us.
Enrique
April 3, 2011
María, we try to look at the best side of a person but there is one matter that we don’t take long in giving the thumbs down: racism and exclusion. As some like Justice Demon put it, we do write a lot against the urban myths that bigots try to pin on immigrants. In a society where racism is a problem, you can also be the victim. There are no “good foreigners” because they can get it too.
One matter I fear is that many of our hunthces about racism in Finland will come true: A big victory for the True Finns shows that a part of society has issues with bigotry and accepting others. It is this country’s savior that we have minorities like the Swedish speakers, sensible Finns and people like ourselves that are not afraid to speak out against all the irrationality.
There have been more oppressive racist regimes in the world like South Africa. In this battle, the bigots lose big time because people will notice in the end that it’s simply not worth it. It is counterproductive and destructive. Nationalism without any brains is as like shooting yourself in the leg twice.
Enrique
April 3, 2011
As an example of the anti-immigration camp, we have mentioned on numerous occasions the True Finnsm Wille Rydman of Kokoomus (Kai Pönttinen is another one) and Kari Rajamäki, a Social Democrat MP. Researcher Vesa Puuronen names the following in the same group: Tuulikki Ukkola (Kokoomus) and Lauri Oinonen (Center Party). I think we can agree that one very misinformed person on immigration and immigrants is Päivi Räsänen (Christian Democrats). Her statements on immigrants are bit like her views on homosexuality.
I was thinking of putting a list together with some examples. This is important considering that the election is just around the corner. Do you know of any other MPs and/or candidates that you would want to suggest? migranttalesblog@gmail.com
alien
April 3, 2011
– In Finland, Finnish culture, language and rules. ……
Rules?!
You ignore rules, circumvent rules, and not giving a damn, if that rule is in favor of an immigrant. Your rule says some thing and your act shows others. There is no rules when it comes to immigrants. It only depends how people appease your complexes. If the guy is like me, that is not used to begging and wants to play by rules, then you fuck the rules. We immigrants actually cry the rules and laws, but you discriminate us and hide behind bullshits like, you dont know the language, you dont give us space, you abuse the system. For most of the immigrants these are false accusations. We speak your language, we are educated and polite enough not to disturb your privacy So stop chanting Assimilation, Assimilation. You cannot fool any one. When I came to Finland, they did not ask me to assimilate. They wanted me to abide by the rules. The very same rule which is vetoed by Finnish system when it comes to immigrants.
Klay_Immigrant
April 3, 2011
Alien it’s always interesting to read what you have to write but only for all the wrong reasons. You must have told your sob story at least three times now and on each occasion it seems to change so the reliability and integrity of your story is certainly compromised and in jeopardy.
If someone never heard of Finland and read what you wrote, they would liken Finland to Nazi Germany or Stalin’s Soviet Republic. Are you saying that’s how Finland is, a police state? We have only heard your side of the story and the fact that many non-White immigrants happily live in Finland with no problem from Migri, Supo or any other organisation suggests that you must have done something that you have convieniently not told us to bring attention to yourself especially as you claim you were a good university student. Your reactions to Finland and it’s people in retaliation unfortunately shows your immaturity. Does it make you feel better to call Finns red faced monkeys and by doing so wanting to attract sympathy?
You said you won’t DOWNGRADE to assimilate into Finnish society? Downgrade from what? The country you had to flee as a refugee for your safety apparently? So in your strange logic moving from an unstable, poor, crime ridden country to Finland is downgrading. You make me laugh but continue your amusing rants as it provides a distraction to the grind of thesis writing.
Enrique
April 4, 2011
–If someone never heard of Finland and read what you wrote, they would liken Finland to Nazi Germany or Stalin’s Soviet Republic.
I think it is important that we can read what others think. I disagree on a lot of issues with you but still I read what you write. Another important matter: If Alien feels that way then that is his right. Maybe speaking about these experiences is good for him and everyone concerned.
When I left Argentina during the dirty war, it would have been great if I could have spoken openly about it. Certainly for a native with citizenship Finland is a “cool” place but if you are a refugee that has gone through all the ritualistic and difficult steps to be accepted the view could be different.
Enrique
April 4, 2011
Klay, we should watch what we say and sometimes people do go overboard. However, I still think it is a million times worse when a politician spreads urban myths about immigrants and refugees. What are they? They are social bums, get special privileges, our immigration policy is like a doorman that bows at everyone that enters, we are being taken over by one group… The consequence and impact of these myths is far worse than what Alien may have said on this blog. I do not approve of what Alien has sometimes said. But look at it this way: I was reffing a game and a player went for the ball on the floor. He hits with his hand another player’s face, who yells a cussword. Who should get a technical or unsportsmanlike conduct? A fair call by the ref would have been the player that hit the other one on the face. The player that cussed was so shocked by what happened that it was a knee-jerk reaction.
alien
April 4, 2011
Mr Klay said:
… You must have told your sob story at least three times
- I have not counted that, but if necessary I will repeat it again. It was necessary to remind and I did. Why you are upset for that?
….now and on each occasion it seems to change so the reliability and integrity of your story is certainly compromised and in jeopardy.
- This is what you claiming without saying how. The story is the same story and nobody can show any inconsistency.
If someone never heard of Finland and read what you wrote, they would liken Finland to Nazi Germany or Stalin’s Soviet Republic. Are you saying that’s how Finland is, a police state?
- Though the time does not let any rejim such as Stalin or Hitler, but I can show you many similarities between Finland and Both Soviet system and Germany of Hitler. For one please refresh our mind if we are wrong, did not Finland had one president for 26 years. Is this a democratic rejim with todays standard? Din not Finland ally with Nazis in WII? Did not Finnish president the symbol of Finland was arrested as a criminal and spent time in prison as the criminal against humanity? I do not go any further for now.
…We have only heard your side of the story and the fact that many non-White immigrants happily live in Finland with no problem from Migri, Supo or any other organisation suggests that you must have done something that you have convieniently not told us to bring attention to yourself especially as you claim you were a good university student.
You have heard my side of story because Supo is not able to state his reasons. If they were not scared they should come and say this guy has done this and that crime. I should not do the Supo Job. Ask Finnih system their side of story. They are speechless because there is no story. An arrogant immigrant does not submit to some asshole and it has burnt their pink holes. I cannot speculate more than this. If not happy ask the reason from them.
…Your reactions to Finland and it’s people in retaliation unfortunately shows your immaturity.
-How?
Does it make you feel better to call Finns red faced monkeys and by doing so wanting to attract sympathy?
- I just respond to impolite nasty offending attacks. If some one is nice and dont insult I have been also nice. Like in your case. So far I am answering nicely to your “questions”. But wait your turn when you insult me, I answer you in different fashion.
… You said you won’t DOWNGRADE to assimilate into Finnish society? Downgrade from what?
- Downgrade from being impolite, that do not talk with an immigrant college for a whole year and thenI talk it is after having 10 beers and 3 koskinkorva, and my first question is Why you come to Finland. This is called in the civilized country an asshole. But it seems that it is a cultural code in Finland. OK, I accept it but I wont be like this.
Downgrade to not respecting adults, grandparents, and act as a cow in front of them, My culture is different, and Finns are different. They can keep theirs I keep mine.
Downgrade to a person who goes to people house and after getting drunk you want to fuck the host wife. I have seen many of especially this one. I have had Finnish finance and I have lived with Finns. I wont downgrade to these norms. But I do not care if Finns are like that.
..The country you had to flee as a refugee for your safety apparently?
- First I have not fled the country but the rejim. The dictatorships are unfortunately every where, South America had many dictatorships until mid 90. Europa, east Europe and many places. Middle East as well. But they are not for ever, they are around for 30-40 years and they have to go. We have thousand of years of history. 30-40 years is like a second in a mans life.
… So in your strange logic moving from an unstable, poor, crime ridden country to Finland is downgrading.
- You are wrong. Iran my country is not poor. Iran even with a dictatorship is the 18th economic power in the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)
Finland is 54. Unstable maybe, but it is a good sign because we are moving toward change. Crimeridden? If you talk about crime. There are more crimes per person in Finland than in Iran. While in Finland the people kill for the sake of Satan (Satan worshipers) or just for fun, Iranian people under the pressure of a brutal rejim which may cause them to do stupid things.
I came out of Iran because I resisted against its brutal rejim. Again I am in different in that to wait many years under occupation, any maybe in the future some one like Lenin gives us independence.
…. You make me laugh but continue your amusing rants as it provides a distraction to the grind of thesis writing.
- I am happy that made you laugh. Because you as a assimilated from “Somewheristan” into Finnish norms could hardly laugh or dare to express yourself. So I made your day!? Didnt I ? If you like it, I can make your hole weak!
alien
April 4, 2011
Sorry, I meant your whole week!
alien
April 4, 2011
One more thing from his excellency Klay The “Immigrant”
….but continue your amusing rants as it provides a distraction to the grind of thesis writing.
- Well if these are rants, why did you bother to react. As you said rants could work against myself and grind these writings. So logically one part of your statement is rubbish. Either what I am saying is not rant, or if they are rants, they have obviously cannot and may not grind these writings as you have claimed, but has grind your nerves. Otherwise there would be no need to react.
But for your information every body knows that you are not black and immigrant. We don’t need to see your assimilated face to realize that you are at least a true Finn, whose his butt is grilled because of this disclosing blog, if not a Finnish system employee whose job is to make up Finland,s face.
An immigrant, even one without problem (which is as absurd as the rest of your claims because one who has lived in Helsinki feel strange if lives in Vassa and feels a degree of alienation), in best case is happy that has no problem. But not to shine Supo’s bulls. When some one like you draw a blank check in favor of the system without being able to rule out the peoples problem. Then you are not only an immigrant, but not even an ordinary Finn.
You are saying that my story and what Finland did to me is rant. Why? which part is not true? if you cannot prove your claim and say which part is not true, then there is no doubt that you are a disguised Finn. A chicken shit that like most of your kind are scared to show their real identity. Admit it Klay, be a man once in your life and say I am a racist Finn. I just like to be racist, and I hate immigrants who does not appease my ass. Be this mush man. Because no matter that you wearing a Lion custom, to us you are still a donkey. You see I have never answered Tiwaz like this. Because he is at least that much man and come here and say I am a racist and even Finns in Sweden may not pass to be a true Finn. I admire even this much of courage. To me courage is the mother of all the wisdoms. once you dont have that you are ready to be as inferior as you are.
So Klay shut the Fuck up if you cannot prove your claims like Supo just throw baseless accusations.
Maria
April 4, 2011
“I the last few post I was referred to by Maria in few occasions. I intend to believe that Maria is who she is, and not a SUPO employee or Migri employee, or Police or some Finnish authority’s employee who tries to make up the face of Finnish system(Finland as a nation has never been under my critiques, it’s only the system that I have criticized). I have my doubts because her racist views about the look, assimilation and about the impossibilities of co-existence between people and cultures is all over this blog. Maria sees accurately what she like to see, and when it comes to sound facts about the people problem, she tries to dodge it. OK Mr SUPO or Ms Maria here we go”
“But for your information every body knows that you are not black and immigrant. We don’t need to see your assimilated face to realize that you are at least a true Finn, whose his butt is grilled because of this disclosing blog, if not a Finnish system employee whose job is to make up Finland,s face”
Alien can you tell me why are you immediately assuming that we are some sort of undercover people pretending to “fix” Finland’s image?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, that’s really something! I did not know that SUPO people are Spanish-French bilingual and know all the Colombian history and manners, not even Enrique has asked me if I am lying about being Colombian….
And why are you labeling me as a racist, just because I do not agree that multiculturalism works? Do I have to be a hypocrite and pretend that everything is fine, well that’s new as well.
I think you are just bitter because you got your citizenship denied. Get over it!
Maria
April 4, 2011
Oh and your link to wikipedia is just a the GDP adjusted, I do not know in what world you live to believe that Brazil, Nigeria or Colombia are more richer than Finland, you should perhaps look at the GDP PPP per capita, HDI index, % of people living under the poverty line, access to health and education, etc.
alien
April 4, 2011
- Alien can you tell me why are you immediately assuming that we are some sort of undercover people pretending to “fix” Finland’s image?
– Because an immigrant says his/her opinions and express her satisfaction. If she has not any problem, she should not assume that other’s problem does not exist. But you have came here and claim that there is not such a problem in Finland and every thing is so good. OK, every thing is so good and you are happy. We heard it, why you judge those who have problem? Just because you have no problem, does it mean there is no discrimination against foreigners in Finland?
Second, Multiculturalism is the reason that you exist if you are who you claim you are. No being and in tis case an immigrant, would work against him/herself. In other words it is natural for an immigrant to try to get more rights, equal rights, and human rights regardless of where he/she lives. But you want even no one to complain? how can we believe that you are an immigrant when you are against that they express themselves?
Third, as it seems and you can see if you were impartial and only had your views, you would not interpret peoples problem as you like. You see that racist people attacking immigrants, and denying their rights and you are silent. but you spent 2 days and found out that I have inappropriate comments about some people.
For all these reasons, I really doubt you are who you are. but if even so. That is OK. You got your answer
- HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, that’s really something! I did not know that SUPO people are Spanish-French bilingual and know all the Colombian history and manners, not even Enrique has asked me if I am lying about being Colombian….
– It is quite natural nowadays to speak 3-4 languages. Many in Finland can do that. I myself speak 4 languages. Knowing Colombian history does not need to be Colombian. Than ks to internet, and the circulation of information. I dont care if you are lying. I have seen far more sophisticated than you. And as I said I take your word for where ever your are from. Your opinions sucks and off course with best odds, is immature and shallow. Especially about Finland. You need more time. I suggest you are better watch and learn. If that does not hurt your Ego.
- And why are you labeling me as a racist, just because I do not agree that multiculturalism works? Do I have to be a hypocrite and pretend that everything is fine, well that’s new as well.
– Go and review your posts:
- I am considered myself a multicultural person…
Well If you are a multicultural person, why do you think that it deos not work. May be you dont understand the meaning of the words that you use, but if some one do not believe in some thing how can act like that?
– If race and physics are not important to you, what is the following statement?
- I am happily married with a pure blood Finn, tall, white, blue eyed, who comes from the north….
How can the fact that your husband is pure Finn, and tall, and white contribute to this discussion. In other word if your husband was not pure, and white, you would agree with multiculturalism? Can you establish the relationship between purity of your husband with this discussion?
To be a racist does not need to be white. A person called laser man in Sweden murdered many immigrants. After he was caught it turned out that he has foreign background and he was dark looking and not blue eye. So stupidity is in your brain not in your blood. If you think otherwise you are 100% racist.
- I think you are just bitter because you got your citizenship denied. Get over it!
– I got over it 4 years ago when I left that mental hospital. And I know that your Colombian butt is burning bad because of my comments, so get over it or apply some cold water, it helps.
- Oh and your link to wikipedia is just a the GDP adjusted, I do not know in what world you live to believe that Brazil, Nigeria or Colombia are more richer than Finland, you should perhaps look at the GDP PPP per capita, HDI index, % of people living under the poverty line, access to health and education, etc.
– Wiki does not get its information from me. We Iranian are 18 Finland is far behind at 54, you dont like it, it burns? get over it.
– And what world you live. Have you done simple math in school? Managing 200 millions is exponentially more difficult than 5 million. For the same reason managing 1 billion in India is 1000 of times harder than Finland with 5 million. Finns should be grateful to Lenin who liberated them, otherwise they should have waited until 1991.
- And one question Maria if you are who you are and just express your mind, what is your opinion about what Finish system does and did to people like me? how do you evaluate it? Do you accept condemning people without showing any reason is the lawfull? We would like know your opinion. Assuming I am telling the truth!
- Second question; You said;
– … when I am in Colombia I behave according to Colombian standards, when in France, ….
If that is so, if you were in some country that they do circumcision on women, you would let that your parents circumcise you? Or you would fight for your human rights? If we accept in a society that some people right is ignored, we should ignore it? or try to improve the situation? Would you let us know your opinion?
Maria
April 5, 2011
“We heard it, why you judge those who have problem? Just because you have no problem, does it mean there is no discrimination against foreigners in Finland?”
I am not judging those who have no problems, I just condemn violent reactions an unjustified demands (I am not talking only about Finland but generally speaking)
If there is a problem of discrimination in Finland, well I am sorry to tell you that I haven’t been a victim and I haven’t seen it, sorry. Are you gonna blame me because of that as well.
“how can we believe that you are an immigrant when you are against that they express themselves?”
Again I am not against immigrant expressing themselves, but against violent immigrants, you for example write in a manner that evokes violence, so the image I have of you is that of a short-tempered person, and now don’t tell me that telling you short-tempered is racism. LOL.
“I considered myself a multicultural person…”
Yes, I do because I was brought up in 2 different cultures and contexts: French school and Colombia, still I do not agree with any immigrant wreaking havoc abroad, if I refer to my fellow Colombians I hate it when they try to import concepts such as “malicia indigena”, do you know what that means? If not, I’ll tell you: Malicia Indigena refers to trying to find a gap in the norm or a way for taking advantage of things, if I give you an example, a Colombian who comes to Finland with such a mentality will be most likely inclined to not pay the metro in Helsinki, because there is no security door that opens when you pay, like in France. Another reason why I think that multiculturalism doesn’t work is my experience in France, have you ever lived there?
“– It is quite natural nowadays to speak 3-4 languages. Many in Finland can do that. I myself speak 4 languages. Knowing Colombian history does not need to be Colombian. Than ks to internet, and the circulation of information”
Yes you can be as fluent as you want, but every culture has a set of mannerisms and subtleties that only the natives dominate, you can read as much as you want about Colombia and speak fluent Spanish, but I highly doubt you will understand the following, very Colombian, expressions and sayings:
-Apague y vamonos
-Echele café
-Voló mierda al zarzo
-No de papaya
-A papaya ponida, papaya partida
-Deje de montarla, etc.
Maybe somebody like Enrique is able to understand them because he lived in Colombia, but I doubt that SUPO people know what I am talking about.
“How can the fact that your husband is pure Finn, and tall, and white contribute to this discussion. In other word if your husband was not pure, and white, you would agree with multiculturalism? Can you establish the relationship between purity of your husband with this discussion?”
I pinpointed it to illustrate the fact that if Finns would really be racist, my husband and Finnish family would have had hard times accepting me, since I am the totally opposite, Latina, more tanned, with brown hair and brown eyes, in fact my husband and I look like a YingYang together.
Are you assuming that because I told his physical appearance I am again some sort of racist, well I think that is a bit delusional. I really could not care less if he is pure or not, but the reality is that he is, since he comes from a very small town, where 99% of the people are white Finns, anyway his best friend is a Finn who is not white at all and still it is not a problem for him to be here, in fact he is (the best friend) very famous in the sports arena, but telling his name would be a very nice hint for you to know who I am and I am not sure if I want that to happen.
“And I know that your Colombian butt is burning bad because of my comments, so get over it or apply some cold water, it helps. ”
My Colombian butt is not burning at all, maybe yours is, because of the way you write and assume things.
“– And what world you live. Have you done simple math in school? Managing 200 millions is exponentially more difficult than 5 million. For the same reason ”
Well I know, but GDP does not really reflect the real development of a country, I think you know that if you have been studying for an MBA, the GDP only reflect the amount of dollars a country pumps out, including foreign and domestic companies in the territory, maybe you should look at the GNP, which measures the production of domestic companies whether they are located abroad, and there are measures that give a better insight of how the income is distributed and the real development of a country, like the GINI coeff, HDI index, child mortality, life expectancy, access to school and health.
I am surprised you don’t know this if you have been studying for an MBA.
You should perhaps also read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product#Limitations_of_GDP_to_judge_the_health_of_an_economy
“- And one question Maria if you are who you are and just express your mind, what is your opinion about what Finish system does and did to people like me? how do you evaluate it? Do you accept condemning people without showing any reason is the lawfull? We would like know your opinion. Assuming I am telling the truth!”
Well since I don’t know you, I can’t swallow every word you say, it is only your side of the story, of course there is always unreliability in everything, so the chances are that maybe there is a mistake but maybe not, the absolute truth doesn’t exist.
If we ASSUME you are telling the truth then it was unfair, but since it is only that an assumption, I think that there is still a probability that there was a reason behind the decision and they just did not want to tell you.
And let me clarify that what I did not like from you were certain of your sentences, what was the need of saying that Pori women are good in bed? If you are a gentleman you should not say such things, even though you had many women.
“If that is so, if you were in some country that they do circumcision on women, you would let that your parents circumcise you? Or you would fight for your human rights? If we accept in a society that some people right is ignored, we should ignore it? or try to improve the situation? Would you let us know your opinion?”
The answer if very simple, if would not dream of going to that country as a women or with my daughters, NEVER! and you should give a better example, FGM is certainly a horrid practice, I am against masculine circumcision as well, still the answer is not fighting violently but educating people about why the practice is wrong, and have incentives, but if you check this video about the issue, you can see that those women who are trying to change are rebuked by their own communities….
What about you giving me an example of how human rights are not respected in Finland for example.
Enrique
April 5, 2011
–What about you giving me an example of how human rights are not respected in Finland for example.
What is your view on male circumcision?
Enrique
April 5, 2011
–Again I am not against immigrant expressing themselves, but against violent immigrants, you for example write in a manner that evokes violence.
María, I don’t think anyone condones this. But maybe you should state ALL forms of violence, including so-called natives.
Enrique
April 5, 2011
–I pinpointed it to illustrate the fact that if Finns would really be racist, my husband and Finnish family would have had hard times accepting me, since I am the totally opposite, Latina, more tanned, with brown hair and brown eyes,
I don’t think anyone is stating that ALL Finns are racist. Some are. What does the rise of the populist right-wing True Finns tell us about how some Finns think about this topic? Even though some like to use this type of logic, there is no such thing as “selective” racism. I hate this group but I am for the other group. It all falls under the same umbrella: bigotry.
I can pinpoint the following common matters in the speech of these groups:
1) Your customs are so anti-European that you could never be a part of our society. My racism and hatred is justified. I can bash and clobber you as much as I want because I am defending our values (sic!).
2) People are not integrating. What are they supposed to integrate into if they are excluded by racism?
3) We must defend our values. Like selective racism, here we have selective democracy. Some speak of democratic values on the one hand while excluding others from the process.
All these are good examples of the far-right’s twisted ideology.
Maria
April 5, 2011
Enrique I have told you I am against every form of violence, I am totally against male and female circumcision.
And it is Alien having a problem with me describing my husband’s physical appearance and seeing racism where there is none.
I want your opinion on this:
It is in France, I have been talking about how the so called racaille do not respect and wreak havoc, here in the video there is a group of them in the RER, one of them shows a knife to the police and hides his face, then when the doors are about to close the guy with the withe cap hits one of the police men, then the police reacts.
Who is guilty? who is not respecting and who should be blamed?
Maria
April 5, 2011
This is the full video, actually.
Maria
April 5, 2011
In the second part, in the bus, the policemen get a call from the bus driver saying that there is a group of youngsters fighting inside the vehicle, the police stops the bus and want to check that they don’t have any weapon.
Enrique
April 5, 2011
–Enrique I have told you I am against every form of violence, I am totally against male and female circumcision.
So this practice should be baned in the United States as well? Jews and Muslims should ban it? Female circumcision is terrible, I admit. But let me ask you a question: What gives you the moral right to decide on male circumcision? What you force Jews to stop this practice? What about USAmericans? How would you ban it or would you ridicule these people for doing it?
Maria
April 5, 2011
Are you ok with male circumcision just because Jews ans Muslims do it? and it is in their traditions?
Well I do not see any difference between cutting a clitoris or a penis’s foreskin. Why would boys be cut and not females, I do not think it is fair and the fact that J and M do it doesn’t mean it is right.
Remember? equality….no boys or girls should be cut!
Enrique
April 5, 2011
–Well I do not see any difference between cutting a clitoris or a penis’s foreskin. Why would boys be cut and not females, I do not think it is fair and the fact that J and M do it doesn’t mean it is right.
I don’t think there is a question of “equal treatment” here. The big question concerning male circumcision is who decides it is wrong? Do you, who does not approve of this decide, or do the people who do this kind of thing decide? For some, male circumcision is important not only for religious but for health purposes. We always run into problems when one culture is telling another one what to do with respect to male circumcision and other cultural customs.
In Latin culture we pierce a baby’s ears at a very early age. Is this acceptable? You are always going to get in trouble when you, an outsider, tell others how to lead their lives. You have to educate people to start with not impose your views on them. But in the end we decide what is right for us.
Maria
April 5, 2011
The big question concerning male circumcision is who decides it is wrong?
Perhaps the same people that decide female circumcision is wrong, also for those who practice it, it is an important rite of passage and do not see anything wrong with it, why would it be different for male circumcision.
You see Enrique that you don’t judge everything with neutrality, male and female circumcision are the same: mutilating a kid’s or baby’s genitalia for the sake of tradition and religion, why is it wrong to do it on women and not on men? There are complications in both cases, the fact that not everybody has a complication doesn’t mean there is none.
If I an adult man wants to be circumcised for X or Y reason, then he is free to do it, but I don’t think it is something to be justified by tradition or religion.
Same with piercing ears in Latin America, parents should let their kids decide if they want or not to have their ears pierced and not impose it on them.
But in the end we decide what is right for us.
Exactly just as Finns decide what is right and good for their country.
Maria
April 5, 2011
“You are always going to get in trouble when you, an outsider, tells others how to lead their lives.”
You said it Enrique, so when an immigrant –> outsider, goes to a country and tries to impose his ways, the natives will naturally get pissed.
Enrique
April 5, 2011
–mutilating a kid’s or baby’s genitalia for the sake of tradition and religion, why is it wrong to do it on women and not on men? There are complications in both cases, the fact that not everybody has a complication doesn’t mean there is none.
You should carry out this question in the United States, Israel and other places where it is practiced. I think you will soon discover that the issue is really not that black and white.
Let me ask you a question: Why is this (male circumcision) such a big issue for you? Why are you so against it?
Enrique
April 5, 2011
–You said it Enrique, so when an immigrant –> outsider, goes to a country and tries to impose his ways, the natives will naturally get pissed.
I think the problem here is that some, maybe you, don’t understand that we are ALREADY culturally diverse. When we live in such a society it requires from all of us mutual acceptance and respect. Without it you cannot move forward. The sooner we accept this the easier our lives will be. It is not a question of an immigrant “imposing” his ways. He has a right to his culture, religion and identity. That is guaranteed not only under the law but is a human right. So, if somebody wants to deny a person of these things, who is breaking the law? Who is imposing his ways?
Enrique
April 5, 2011
One of my complaits of the far-right (I am not speaking of you) is that they like to pick fights. They frantically search for something and make a huge deal about it when, in fact, it shouldn’t be. One of these is the veil. Did you know that respectable women in Finland in the past wore a headscarf? Women of “ill-repute” didn’t. I know a student who wears one and I think it looks very nice on her. Every day she puts on a new one. It’s not a big deal and cultures can live side by side. Now think if I wanted to take that right from her. I would make a big deal and force her to come to class without a veil. Do you think I would be promoting her identity and rights? I think I would be committing a pretty disrespectful crime.
Since nobody is bothered by it everything is ok.
Maria
April 5, 2011
I am against male circumcision for the same reason I am against female circumcision: NO BABY OR CHILD SHOULD BE CUT. (period)
Tell me why are you against female circumcision and not against male circumcision, what is the difference, and leave aside the cultural, religious reasons, I am talking from an anatomical/medical/objective point of view.
There is no medical need for none of those procedures, they are only justified by tradition and religion, so it does not mean they are right things to do.
You seem to deliberately avoid that point.
Maria
April 5, 2011
I am not picking a fight, LOL, in fact your blog has grown on me, I think it is interesting to exchange different opinions. I for example do not have anything against women wearing veils, I have a Somali friend who wears it and she looks even more beautiful with it, conversely my Muslim friend in France doesn’t wear it, she doesn’t like. The problems around the veil arise when let’s say “whites” demand girls to take it away, or some Muslim men think that you are some sort of whore because you don’t wear it. I have seen on Youtube many Imans preaching that a woman who does not cover herself is of ill-reputation, I think what defines if you are a moral person or not are the values you are thought at home, not wearing a piece of fabric on your head. For example my Muslim friend has told me that people in Saudi Arabia are hypocrites, because as long as you wear your veil and keep you virginity, then you are ok, so what many girls do is that they engage is anal premarital sex for preserving their viriginity but still “have fun”, and wear the veil, but the reality is that they are not as moral as they appear to be. (THIS WAS TOLD TO ME BY MY MUSLIM FRIEND)
Also I find it insulting that some Imans deliberately label Western women as inmoral persons, I think
the commit the same sin, that you have criticized here so much, label a whole group without the benefit of doubt.
Check this out:
This Muslim Saudi woman is telling that she does not agree with the niqab.
Maria
April 5, 2011
My bigger critic to some of these Muslims is the vision they have that the woman should cover herself for not raising temptations among men, so the woman is responsible for the lust of the men, I don’t think it is fair, I think men you learn how to control their libido instead of making women responsible for it and use them as some sort of escape goat.
Maria
April 5, 2011
Ultimately I think that the threat is not Islam, but RADICAL ISLAM, in fact any religious fanatic is a big danger.
alien
April 5, 2011
Maria said:
-I am not judging those who have no problems, I just condemn violent reactions an unjustified demands (I am not talking only about Finland but generally speaking)
– What violence? be specific! Is my answer to you violent? If you mean that, why dont you see Tiwaz comments? For you he is defending his country. Why should not I defend my country?
– What is unjustified demand? Do you mean our demand? Demanding laws and acting to Finnish laws in unjustified? If I have not got it, please you tell us what is unjustified?
-If there is a problem of discrimination in Finland, well I am sorry to tell you that I haven’t been a victim and I haven’t seen it, sorry.
– Dont try to buy sympathy for yourself. Nobody said any thing against your happiness in Finland. I said OK. good for you. But not every one is like you. You are short in reasoning and trying to buy sympathy in this way.
-Are you gonna blame me because of that as well.
– No
- Again I am not against immigrant expressing themselves, but against violent immigrants, you for example write in a manner that evokes violence, so the image I have of you is that of a short-tempered person, and now don’t tell me that telling you short-tempered is racism. LOL.
– Violence meaning: Violence is the expression of physical force against one or more people, compelling action against one’s will on pain of being hurt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence
Lady violence in practice is something physical in nature. Even if my comments hurt you, you have the choice not to come to this blog, or not read my comments. Stop bullshitting. I just answered in the same manner that you and racist people deserve. LOL too!
-“I considered myself a multicultural person…”
-Yes, I do because I was brought up in 2 different cultures and contexts: French school and Colombia,
– Then why multiculturalism is bad if you are an example? Even if you are a failure which is very probable, still it does not rule out the whole concept!
- ..still I do not agree with any immigrant wreaking havoc abroad, if I refer to my fellow Colombians I hate it when they try to import concepts such as “malicia indigena”, do you know what that means? If not, I’ll tell you: Malicia Indigena refers to trying to find a gap in the norm or a way for taking advantage of things, if I give you an example, a Colombian who comes to Finland with such a mentality will be most likely inclined to not pay the metro in Helsinki, because there is no security door that opens when you pay, like in France.
– Is this the depth of your understanding of the concept multiculturalism? If your Colombian friend do some thing stupid. It is just the people hanging around, it is not multiculturalism. Is there only Colombian who migrates? Is there any one from Argentina? Iran? Sweden? India? and so on. Can we generalize this bad habit of your fellow Colombian to every one? You should study a bit more about the subject. The world is slightly bigger than the one you have for yourself.
-Another reason why I think that multiculturalism doesn’t work is my experience in France, have you ever lived there?
–No I have not, but go ahead. If is like your Colombian friend in Finland. Save it. We know what you want to say.
Yes you can be as fluent as you want, but every culture has a set of mannerisms and subtleties that only the natives dominate, you can read as much as you want about Colombia and speak fluent Spanish, but I highly doubt you will understand the following, very Colombian, ……………………
– Hold on your horses! Nobody needs to pass an essential idiom exam to prove his language skills or to forge it. At least not on this blog and as such needs to do that. Many of Finns know Spanish, Italian, or Greek. My Finnish finance was fluent in Greek. Her mother was fluent in Spanish as her Spanish boy friend said so. I have seen Swedish ladies who speak Persian and sing folkloric Persian music
-….I doubt that SUPO people know what I am talking about.
– Do not! Even McDonald employs nowadays people with ability to speak several languages, let alone SUPO who wishes to become MI6 some day, but his style is more like stazi, and gestapo. Not even KGB.
-I pinpointed it to illustrate the fact that if Finns would really be racist, my husband and Finnish family would have had hard times accepting me, since I am the totally opposite, Latina, more tanned, with brown hair and brown eyes, in fact my husband and I look like a YingYang together.
. If your husband has accepted you, then there is no racism in Finland and Multiculturalism is bad? How can one people and his family represent a whole system or nation? Are you high lady? you said you are from Where? Colombia? oh, OK.
– What a brilliant logic. You just watch that NASA dont kidnap you!
-Are you assuming that because I told his physical appearance I am again some sort of racist, well I think that is a bit delusional.
– I just said size and color of your husband indicates nothing in favor or against what you are saying.
-I really could not care less if he is pure or not, but the reality is that he is, since he comes from a very small town, where 99% of the people are white Finns, anyway his best friend is a Finn who is not white at all and still it is not a problem for him to be here, in fact he is (the best friend) very famous in the sports arena, but telling his name would be a very nice hint for you to know who I am and I am not sure if I want that to happen.
Naughty, Naughty, as I told it eventually leads to a dark guy. Good job 
. now you see I was right about Mia and Pia.
– HHHHMMMM, you are revealing some secrets!
-My Colombian butt is not burning at all, maybe yours is, because of the way you write and assume things.
– Not if you apply lubrication. Well mine is OK, I am far away from black sport men.
-Well I know, but GDP does not really reflect the real development of a country, I think you know that if you have been studying for an MBA, …..
– It was not even you that said I am from a poor country. It was Klay who vanished. but it seems that Supos people work in team (Kidding). I answer it to you.
Actually poverty is a by product of many things far beyond GDP and GNP. Copy pasting from Wiki is not very helpful here. but Since you mentioned MBA, listen and learn. Management and leadership is a decisive factor in determining GNP and also GDP. I have no argue about the fact that some countries like mine is ruled by brutal dictators. But judging a country for only one part of his history which seems to be one of its shortest one, is not right and misleading. Wronger than that is to judge a person based on where he comes from. It can tell us a lot but not every thing. Still wronger than that is to ask some one to shut your mouth, because you have come from a poor country. This is what Klay is demanding and he got the answer.
Once again a country who has 4th biggest oil reserves in the world, second gas reserves in the world or perhaps first, copper, iron, and many many other resources, near 4000km of sea cost, 5 times bigger than Finland, young population, some of best technical universities in the world, vast area for sun, vast area for wind, the oldest civilization to man kind or one the oldest one, too much history, to much to see and to to show for tourism in not called poor. The problem in GNP is indeed a question of management. 30 years ago we were mostly between 30 to 50 countries in the world depending which year. Now we are 70-90 and this is because of bad management. But if somebody wants to use GNP and ask dont say nothing. Well that does not work. Finland could be very good country. but in its own caliber. It should not try to compare itself with countries with much more complexities. I would tell you and Finland watch and learn.
-If we ASSUME you are telling the truth then it was unfair, but since it is only that an assumption, ….
– Every thing is based on assumption. Did we ask you show an ID to prove your identity to believe you. Show a picture of your husband to authenticate the genuinity of what you saying? No.
-I think that there is still a probability that there was a reason behind the decision
– Why you think so? Why dont you think that they might lie?
-and they just did not want to tell you.
– Can we convict some one without saying the reasons? The law in Finland says that no one should be convicted without a written reason. So that is what I am saying, they are trampling the rules. So if Finns ignore the laws and rules, why should immigrants abide to rules. Can you give us an answer?
-And let me clarify that what I did not like from you were certain of your sentences, what was the need of saying that Pori women are good in bed? If you are a gentleman you should not say such things, even though you had many women.
– Lady, Finland act as a totalitarian regime against immigrants, ignore its laws, convict people, and deprive them from their rights, and you are to dumb to condemn it, but you are just stuck to my bed stories!? OK, they were bad in the bed! Are you happy now?:)
Maria
April 5, 2011
Alien you just proved what a gentleman you are NOT. LoL at you.
You totally manipulated my answer, you didn’t get my point and assumed that I have criminal Colombian friends, cheat on my husband with a black guy and I am high (implying that because I am Colombian and thus I am involved with drugs)
1- Cultural knowledge is more than being fluent in different languages, which explains even tough you are fluent in Spanish from Spain you might have trouble in Costa Rica, we all speak a different Spanish. Get it?
2- Why are you insulting me and telling that some black is sodomizing me, what are your proofs?
My husband’s friend is my husband’s friend not mine, and if I do not give you his name, well it is for my own and my husband’s security, since he is known in Finland.
“– Not if you apply lubrication. Well mine is OK, I am far away from black sport men. ”
Naughty, Naughty, as I told it eventually leads to a dark guy. Good job 
. now you see I was right about Mia and Pia.”
“– HHHHMMMM, you are revealing some secrets!
–> these statements actually prove what a prick you are.
Lastly I am glad that you got your citizenship denied! And now I am convinced that there was some reason behind it. Your speech betrays your level of education and politeness. It is not because you were good in school that it automatically makes you a good person. Please do us a favor and stay in Sweden!
alien
April 5, 2011
Maria said:
- … assumed that I have criminal Colombian friends
– Show me where did I say your friend are criminal. Where did I say that? You mentioned yourself
“……..if I give you an example, a Colombian who comes to Finland with such a mentality will be most likely inclined to not pay the metro in Helsinki, because there is no security door that opens when you pay,”
- …, cheat on my husband with a black guy
– Show me where did I say that you are cheating. I throw some thing and your mind took that direction. I guess there is some thing seriously wrong with you.
-… and I am high (implying that because I am Colombian and thus I am involved with drugs)
– What I meant is that your statements are so irrelevant that as if you are high. I could not care less if you are high or down. But that was just kidding to trigger to give answer to the questions instead of dodging them.
- Cultural knowledge is more than being fluent in different languages, which explains even tough you are fluent in Spanish from Spain you might have trouble in Costa Rica, we all speak a different Spanish. Get it?
– OK
- Why are you insulting me and telling that some black is sodomizing me, what are your proofs?
– I did not say that. I have no proof. And even if that is the case is not any one business and is irrelevant to these discussion
- My husband’s friend is my husband’s friend not mine
– Well I dont see any problem if they would be friend with you as well.
- …and if I do not give you his name, well it is for my own and my husband’s security, since he is known in Finland.
– Off course. I dont need no one’s name. Personally I cannot care less if he is Jari Sillonpää or any one else. Your husband friend is his friend is I respect every one.
- Lastly I am glad that you got your citizenship denied!
– OK
- And now I am convinced that there was some reason behind it. Your speech betrays your level of education and politeness.
– And I am convinced that you are a filthy, coward Finn, disguised as a Colombian to destroy the image of the immigrants. I found it out when you said Colombian coming to Finland are not willing to pay the Metro. This is exactly a Finnish propaganda. How can you be sure that all the Colombians are like that? If your friend is like that, does it mean that all the Colombian are like that? Does all the Finn pay for the metro? Is that right to say Finns dont pay fro the metro if a few do not? So you are here to damage the image of immigrants. You are no different than the racist showing up in here to say that the immigrants are criminal.
You think you are so clever that to come here and wash the hands of a discriminative system, accusing immigrants and dodge our questions. So I guess you are not able to answer questions. So shut your mouth and mind your own business. You are happy in Finland be happy. Most of the immigrants feel discrimination and are not happy. So live your life.
-It is not because you were good in school that it automatically makes you a good person.
– So what
- Please do us a favor and stay in Sweden!
– Dont worry. Finland to me is the worth option next to execution. If Finland for you is dream, to me is a nightmare. This is not only my view. Nearly one million Finn live in Sweden. For most of them Finland is not a place to live. I am happy that I dont have to live among zombies. You enjoy them 24/7.
Tiwaz
April 13, 2011
-”It is not a question of an immigrant “imposing” his ways. He has a right to his culture, religion and identity. That is guaranteed not only under the law but is a human right. So, if somebody wants to deny a person of these things, who is breaking the law? Who is imposing his ways?”
This, Enrique, is again your double standards. In case you have not figured it out, FINNS HAVE RIGHTS TOO! We have right to judge foreigners according to our cultural norms in our native, indigenous land.
So while immigrant is legally entitled to act according to his culture in some cases (over here we consider child mutilation for cultural reasons to be illegal)… Finns have full right to use Finnish cultural norms to judge these actions. Thus, if immigrant acts in way that is against Finnish cultural norms of proper action… Finns have right to consider immigrant an asshole.
And as we Finns are vast majority of population, it means immigrants refusing to adjust their actions will find their lives difficult. It is not racism of Finns, but racism of immigrants in refusing to adjust to society they moved into.
Alien:
-”If you mean that, why dont you see Tiwaz comments? For you he is defending his country. Why should not I defend my country?”
Who has actually attacked your country? I did not even know from which one you came from. And even today I care not. Iran to me is pathetic hellhole to which I do not even spit at. (And considering you have fleed there you agree, but at same time want other countries to be like Iran. How stupid is that?) But I do not care what Iran does as long as it stays in Iran.
You on other hand have contributed to this blog with nothing but racist attacks on Finns and Finland.
You do not defend your nation because nobody is attacking your nation.
alien
April 13, 2011
For those who rip off their cunts for Finland and Finns and ask why you say bad word about Finland, this is why we answer in the same manner.
Tiwaaaz:
- Who has actually attacked your country? I did not even know from which one you came from. And even today I care not. Iran to me is pathetic hellhole to which I do not even spit at….
– If I say say Finland is “pathetic hellhole to which I do not even spit”, do you consider that insult or what?
And Tiwaz you talked about spit and holes. It reminds me of all those times that I was at the service of your wife and sister.
JusticeDemon
April 13, 2011
The average educated and truly civilised Finn sees an immigrant woman wearing a headscarf or an immigrant man wearing a turban and accepts that Finland is culturally diverse and more interesting as a result.
Then along comes Tiwaz the Nazi and starts yelling that she has a full right to use “Finnish cultural norms” to judge the behaviour of anyone who does not conform to her petty ideas of what is normal in Finland. The final arbiter of what counts as a “Finnish cultural norm” is … you guessed it, and any Finn who disagrees isn’t “really” Finnish. Thus the fascists behave like spiders in a box, eating one another until there’s just one big fat dictator left.
What really bugs our fascist friend is that she failed miserably in her own attempt to live abroad, so how dare these immigrants thrive and prosper more than 5 miles from their place of birth.
Stop business with Finland
April 17, 2011
After reading all these experiences I must say it confirms my image of Finland. Somebody made a remark about high tech products and how Finland invests into this to keep business flowing with the rest of the world. As a businessman I feel that my money needs to go to people that don’t just love the money but love their customers too. Well Finland: go to hell and keep your damn technology. I hope all you racists die in poverty, I’ll do my best to promote products from Germany, Taiwan and the US instead of ever buying another high tech racist built product from all you red necks.
Enrique
April 18, 2011
Hi Stop business with Finland, I believe a lot are surprised by the result. The problem with populist ideology is that it is ego- and ethnocentric. These types of people think (sic!) that there is no reciprocity. It will be a difficult four years in Finland that is for certain. Things will get worse before they improve.
Tiwaz
April 18, 2011
Ah, here we have alien again showing why people from that part of world are so much wanted everywhere.
It is their intellect and high level of education. Not. Let me guess alien, your obsession of speaking about having sex is result of you having nothing else to talk about, no intellectual abilities to speak of so instead you escape to last refuge of useless and pretend to be sex monster.
Except your obsession reveals that you are also totally frustrated on that field as well. Let me guess… It frustrates you that in civilized world you can’t get woman even if you pay for it?
And then we have equally intellectually limited JD, who in her little mind tries to come up with arguments she pretends others have presented.
JD thinks that Finns care if someone wears a scarft. She fails to grasp nobody gives a damn.
But JD has to find something Finns do not care about, because she, like Enrique, knows that if discussion is drawn to real cultural differences…
Multicultural fantasy falls apart totally. Like rape percentages of immigrants! Due to incompatible cultural values and norms.
And Enrique, it is going to be good four years. Finns have woken up now, and it is time to start sorting out issues which matter to Finns instead of politicians having little circle jerk to prentend that multiculturalism is the thing.
alien
April 19, 2011
- Ah, here we have alien again showing why people from that part of world are so much wanted everywhere
– I dont give a damn, if you like me or not. I am not wanted by you, this is a mutual feeling.
- It is their intellect and high level of education. Not. Let me guess alien, your obsession of speaking about having sex is result of you having nothing else to talk about, no intellectual abilities to speak of so instead you escape to last refuge of useless and pretend to be sex monster.
– No Tiwaz, it is not a question of lack of intellect, it is simply that first the level in which I speak, your Finnish brain cannot process it, and second unlike you that attack countries, nations and races, I attack you. I rather say the truth about your country, instead of calling it a hellhole. And for a macho guy that seems you are, it seems that is has been working.
And Tiwaz you may judge my intellect however you want, but you should at least give me this much that I chose you not you. I never begged for any thing. I came to your mental hospital and I found that you are sick people, then I said fuck you Finland, you are dismissed. You are not in my size. And this is what that burns you.
Raskarhu
April 28, 2011
I think it is honest to state that racism exists in Finland.
But the initial article which sparked off the debate is intellectually dishonest. it is just grotesque to measure racism by using such a non-scientific approach as those so-called 10 postulates.
I do not agree with Tiwaz’s style which is a little bit over the top and indeed: xenophobic, narrow-minded, and so on, and I do not approve of a lot of things he is saying.
But i do get the gist of it, as have many so called ‘foreigners’ on this forum like Maria e.g., the gist being: you can not expect a country to adapt to the principles and beliefs and ways of the foreigner just like that.
On the other hand, and that’s where I do not agree with Tiwaz and the likes: the receiving country can do an effort as well, must do an effort. And also: we do need immigrants in Finland; maybe not as much as France, GB, Belgium and so on have let in, but still.
Something I remarked soon enough once I was in Finland for the first time (I’m married to a Finn, living in Brussels): the over the top patriotism, people wearing t-shirts which says ‘Suomi’ – as if it isn’t clear enough that they are Finns, that they live in Finland. That kind of stuff. Weird.
Anyways, gotta go:. The world turns on. Let’s go outside and enjoy the real world instead of cyberworld.
Have a nice thread! Go and visit the world (in your head or in real time)
Enrique
April 28, 2011
Hi Rakarhu, and welcome to Migrant Tales. Nobody is stating that this is an abolute measuring stick for racism. It was first published in May 2007. Finland appeared like another world back then. There was hardly any debate and society was not this polarized on an topic like immigration. Racism existed back then put it was difficult to put a finger on it. After living for three decades on and off in Finland I tried to place that finger on the culprit. I thought of the AA test on alcoholism. It’s pretty surprising that this is the most popular entry on Migrant Tales with over 1,400 comments, which give us one view of the problem.
Enjoy the day in Belgium and we look forward to hearing from you again.
Maria
April 30, 2011
What’s wrong with being patriot? It is not the first time that I hear that being patriot is weird, Colombians are very patriot too, almost every Colombian I have met abroad is wearing a Colombian thing and we are proud of it.
Also I think there is a problem of attitude, my personal opinion is that when you are foreigner you should have a respectful approach and give time to the locals to adapt to you. My best friend here in Finland, came with her family as a refugee 12 years ago, her and her family have adapted quite well, learned the language quite fast and in no time they had jobs and normal lives, but they remain Colombian, they don’t even have the citizenship and they are not white, and they have never had problems here, nobody has treated them in racist way, they did tell though that they have argued with some other foreigners and refugees because of their attitude towards Finland, of constantly bashing the country and Finns and some despite having been here for over 15 years still do not speak Finnish properly or don’t speak it at all…
Enrique
April 30, 2011
–Also I think there is a problem of attitude, my personal opinion is that when you are foreigner you should have a respectful approach and give time to the locals to adapt to you.
Don’t you think they do? What disrespectful things are you talking of? You mentioned once speaking loudly in the street.
Maria
May 2, 2011
Well once I was in Tiger with my friends and a group of Arab looking men approached us and tried to start a conversation, the first thing they asked was if we liked Finns, we said yes otherwise we wouldn’t be here, then they started to say that they hated Finns that they were this and that and then when the club was closing they started fighting with some Finn men because of the elevator, so if you are like that, no wonder other people, in this case Finns won’t like you.
Also my friend worked in a restaurant and there was a new Iraqi worker hired just before she left, he refused to accept her help because first she was a woman and second she was younger, she was yelling at the customers and to the boss and basically being very bad behaved at the work place and spoke terrible Finnish even though he had been here for 20 years…
when I run into people like that I think: “well no wonder the nationals don’t like immigrants”
Enrique
May 2, 2011
–Well once I was in Tiger with my friends and a group of Arab looking men approached us and tried to start a conversation..
María, I think we have to avoid that type of generalizing. It does us no good and it is unfair to the rest. If you think of it, here is were we start building those walls of hate between us. Why don’t we take away the national and ethnic label and just say that person instead of that group?
Allan
May 3, 2011
So generalizing is bad, but what those men did was the good thing? Why do you not condemn those men but condemn Maria?
Maria
May 3, 2011
I am not generalizing, I can’t remember which country they were from, but I do remember that they were not Finns, they were foreigners and they were from somewhere in the Middle East, I know that not all of people from the ME are disrespectful, but hey if I recall all the bad examples of immigrants, they are mostly MALE and from the ME, maybe it is not the ethnicity but the gender. Males seem to like fighting a lot…testosterone, perhaps??!!
Jenkki
May 6, 2011
Maria, have you seen these articles yet? These incidents happened this week.
Not sure if these links will show up correctly. My apologies if it does not.
Maahanmuuttajataustainen bussikuski pahoinpideltiin taas
http://omakaupunki.hs.fi/paakaupunkiseutu/uutiset/maahanmuuttajataustainen_bussikuski_pahoinpideltiin_taas.1/?ref=tf_iOKboksi_p4
Amerikkalaisvihamielinen nainen melskasi metrossa
http://omakaupunki.hs.fi/paakaupunkiseutu/uutiset/amerikkalaisvihamielinen_nainen_melskasi_metrossa/
Maria
May 7, 2011
“Pahoinpitelyjen uhreiksi joutuu suunnilleen yhtä paljon maahanmuuttajataustaisia ja kantaväestöön kuuluvia kuljettajia, kertoo HelBin liikennejohtaja Mika Seppänen.”
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Bus+driver+of+immigrant+background+attacked+in+Helsinki/1135265934014
I guess it is the same article but in English, it says clearly: “According to transport director Mika Seppänen of Helsingin Bussiliikenne Oy, approximately the same number of Finnish and foreign-background drivers are subjected to this type of attack” and “Today’s youth feel that they can behave any which way they want, according to their own rules. But problems may occur with other people as well. The troublemaker can be almost anyone”
I think more than a problem of racism, it is a problem of discipline and strict rules set by the parents to their kids, as the article pinpoints youth is not afraid of anything and do not respect authority anymore. Yesterday I saw a couple of young Finnish boys, crossing the train rails when it is clearly forbidden and kicking empty cans, I thought “where the hell are their parents??!!” it was not only dangerous as they could have been smashed by the train but a very reckless behavior.
Also I am not saying that women are saints and men are not, I was just talking from my own experience where most of the “bad encounters” I’ve had are with men from the ME, it does not mean that they are all bad, I was just giving an example, I know out there there are bad women too. Well I guess it is all down to there are bad people everywhere and racist people everywhere and crap everywhere and there is nothing we can do about it.
http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2011/05/true_finns_mp_faces_death_threat_2568729.html
You see? hatred is both sided, PS might not be the best political party out there, but it does not legitimate the fact that they can receive dead threats just because of their opinions, or what do you think?
Enrique
May 7, 2011
–You see? hatred is both sided, PS might not be the best political party out there, but it does not legitimate the fact that they can receive dead threats just because of their opinions, or what do you think?
Death threats do not form part of our democratic society. You can speak for Colombia and I can tell you some horror stories from Argentina during the dirty war years. However, you cannot equate an attack on a Finn with that of an immigrant because the latter can be a hate crime.
Here is a question that I asked a while back: An African was harassed in Jyväskylä. He was shoved and hit on the back. The police said that if one is in such a situation, he/she should walk away and NOT report it to the police because it would be impossible to track and capture the person.
We called the Ombudsman for Minorities who called back two days later. They said that it was important to report the incident to the police.
I totally agree.
Enrique
May 7, 2011
Maria, here is something I saw on The truth about the True Finns blog:
Olli immonen has certainly enjoyed his share of Finnish freedom of speech to the fullest, having blogged on various sites on topics such as the impending Islamisation of Finland and how the Finnish white heterosexual male is in danger of being marginalised. He went as far as to publish the controversial Jyllands post Muhammad cartoons on his webpage, prompting no reaction whatsoever from Finnish Muslims. In one particularly hateworthy incident, mr Immonen responded to news of Neo-nazis throwing tear gas canisters at a pride march with a blog post almost entirely dedicated to people heckling a neo-nazi rally in Germany. Yes, he actually thinks people who decide to dress up in bomber jackets and beat immigrants are a persecuted minority group in the same category as homosexuals or refugees. His hatred of homosexuals actually made news in 2009 when Immonen stated in parliament that permitting homosexual partnerships is a slippery slope to legalised beastiality.
Maria
May 8, 2011
“Death threats do not form part of our democratic society.”
“However, you cannot equate an attack on a Finn with that of an immigrant because the latter can be a hate crime.”
Hahaha, don’t make laugh Enrique, you are so biased. First of all, I just linked to Yle, so did they invent the dead threat thing? I could not care less about the guy involved, the fact that he received a dead threat just proves that hatred is both sided…nothing else.
Second: why in the hell are you talking about Colombia, and implicitly saying that death threats are normal there but not here, when I didn’t say anything, it was a link on the FINNISH newspapers, and
third: why would the attack on a immigrant be more important that the attack on a Finn?? that shows just how neutral you are NOT! So now everytime an immigrant gets an attack, he was innocent and it was a hate crime, yeah because immigrants are all saints HAHAHA!!
And Jasmin is as biased as you, talking about the attacks on the bus drivers and saying that racism was the cause, when the article clearly said that Finns were as likely as immigrants to be attacked, but nobody cares about those Finns right?? the important thing is to defend the immigrants because those attacks were certainly hate attacks!!!
PATHETIC
Enrique
May 8, 2011
Maria, this is a blog. A blog takes certain stands. Migrant Tales allows people to differ with opinions.
Certainly there is a difference if you hit an immigrant because it could be a hate crime. It works like this: one point for battery but an extra one for racism/hate crime. Nobody said that anyone is a saint.
A concerned citizen cares about everyone in society.
And for the record let me put it to you in plain English: I personally think bigotry, racism, exclusion, war and hatred are some of the worse social ills facing our societies. We take a very strong stand on these and I am very proud we do.
I would feel ashamed of myself if I didn’t. It is the least I can give back to this country, which is one of my homes.
Jenkki
May 13, 2011
Maria – Not sure if you meant Jenkki. Just wanted to show you some links regarding this issue. I don’t think such a desire to share current events with a fellow immigrant constitutes an automatic labelling of “biased”.
Jenkki
May 13, 2011
I came to this country with an open, if not naive, mindset in awe of Finland and the Finns and their ability (or my perception of this ability) to create a beautiful, clean, orderly environment while at the same time upholding the values of equality, inclusion, and fairness regardless of one’s economic background, social network, race, color, creed, or even physical appearance (social ills that plague most of the world)
I sincerely hope for all immigrants to have a full and happy life in Finland. But I have to say it is only after a long, and frankly, very arduous journey, before one can stand up on one’s own two feet and know that whether our partners stay or leave, jobs may or may not come, language skills may be easy to obtain or difficult to grasp, we can participate as full members of this society and allow our opinions to be strong regardless if they differ from the majority, knowing that we deserve to express ourselves.
Along this difficult path, realities appear that were unseen before. It is these realities that our fellow immigrant/enlightened veterans have honored us by communicating these hidden facets of Finnish society.
Allan
May 13, 2011
“…how the Finnish white heterosexual male is in danger of being marginalised.”
Well, actually Enrique, he is already marginalized as a schoolboy:
http://www.hs.fi/paakirjoitus/artikkeli/Poikien+annetaan+syrj%C3%A4yty%C3%A4+%C3%A4idinkielen+opetuksesta/1135265455584
http://www.taloussanomat.fi/tyo-ja-koulutus/2011/04/18/nuori-putoaa-putkesta–lasku-12-miljoonaa/20115003/139
http://www.verkkouutiset.fi/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=50274:qsyrjaeytyminen-alkaa-jo-peruskoulussaq&catid=5:tiede&Itemid=7
Lita
May 15, 2011
Hi Enrique,
Yep, there is racism everywhere in this world. No doubt of that. The last elections in Finland evidence there is a problem growing up here.
Thank you so much for debating these issues openly in this blog. There is a need to acknowledge these issues, so that we can find a solution.
We are waiting to see what kind of society Finland wants to build, what kind of risk they are willing to take, how they are going to track the problem, and find solutions. Remember that Finland is number one in many aspects (social and technological)…they can surprise us. I do hope that in delivering strategies they would think not only about the refugees here, but also the students who decide to work here for a while, and the spouses of Finns.
PD. I don’t think is a bad sign that immigrants are creating business here and being independent. I actually think it is fantastic that they have done so, and probably with the assistance from the government?
Although I have live here for two years, I just begin applying for jobs here. Lest see how lucky I am. If I fail, I am pretty sure we (me and my Finnish husband) would need to move to Australia, UK, Canada or Colombia ( I am originally from Colombia) until conditions are favourable for immigrants here in Finland.
Thanks for the info posted here
Lita (rola)
Enrique
May 15, 2011
Hola Lita y bienvenida a Migrant Tales. What happened, and has been happening especially after the 2008 municipal election, is a rise in racism in this country. There is, unfortunately, a connection with the rise of the PS and racism.
If I could get a good job elsewhere I would move. Even so, the majority of the Finns are not represented by the like of some people in the PS.
Me encanta Colombia y trabajé allí por dos años.
We hope we will hear more of you and your experiences in Finland.
Enrique
May 15, 2011
Hola Lita y bienvenida a Migrant Tales. What happened, and has been happening especially after the 2008 municipal election, is a rise in racism in this country. There is, unfortunately, a connection with the rise of the PS and racism.
If I could get a good job elsewhere I would move. Even so, the majority of the Finns are not represented by the like of some people in the PS.
Me encanta Colombia y trabajé allí por dos años.
We hope we will hear more of you and your experiences in Finland.
Thiago Lopes
May 16, 2011
I live here for 2 years, im married witha finnish woman and i really think call finnish people racist is the MOST STUPID THING EVER!
- They dont need to adaptate their cultures for you, YOU are the one that need to adaptate to finnish culture.
- The most part of people that complain about jobs DONT SPEAK FINNISH.
- If you hate so much the “racism” in Finland why do you still living here?
- Stop complaining about this, if you looking racism everywhere you will find it, even in a small flower in a garden.
All the time living here i NEVER suffer any king of racism(im a brown skin latin/brazilian) inverse, im always very well treated and have finnish friends and im always doing things to be part of society, i do not sit in a bar and start to complain.
Enrique
May 16, 2011
Hi Thiago Lopes and thank you for sharing your views on Migrant Tales.
This thread is a good example of how some immigrants are more conservative and anti-immigration in their views than Finns. It’s not an absurd statement. Just because you move from one country to the next doesn’t make you less racist or more pro-immigration. Moreover, immigrants compete with other immigrants for scant resources such as jobs, which explains why some of them don’t like more people to move here from abroad.
Enrique
May 27, 2011
–This blog is also proof that immigrants are often the most racist group. You are prime example Enrique, like it or not. Your attitudes expressed towards Finns would nicely fit into HommaForum or Stormfront if you switch “Finn” to “immigrant”.
Yeah, right, Tiwaz. Nice try. But hey, when you speak of different people in this country I’d suggest you’d use multicultural Finn. Thank you.
alien
June 3, 2011
Hi every body;
Regarding Thiago Lopes notes;
“I live here for 2 years, im married witha finnish woman and i really think call finnish people racist is the MOST STUPID THING EVER!”
- Well They say never say never. You just sat a new record!
“They dont need to adapt their cultures for you, YOU are the one that need to adaptate to Finnish culture.”
- Saying some one to adopt to this or that culture is technically, and legally wrong. There is no ACT or law which says people should adopt to cultures. However it would be right to say that everybody should abide and follows the rules and laws and acts of the host country and in this case Finland. Provided that Finnish authorities abide to the very own laws that it has ratified and passed too. No body can define a culture precisely because the culture is nothing but our perceptions of a group of people actions and behaviors. Since there are many differences in norms and behaviors among people, therefore saying Finnish culture is that or this could not and may not to be correct 100%. For example, not all the Finns drink like hell. Not all of them are Shy. Not all of them are unsocial and so on. But those persons mentioned are still Finns and they can claim this is true Finnish culture and norms. So to avoid this ambiguity human being has created rules and laws and that is some thing that should be followed and adopted.
“The most part of people that complain about jobs DONT SPEAK FINNISH.”
- But what about those part which speaks the language and has education? what about them? Should we talk or have we right to talk about that group? Assuming that what you are saying is true and most immigrants do not know Finnish language in the level needed for the job!
“If you hate so much the “racism” in Finland why do you still living here?”
-This is my argument too! I did not like that country and left. But Somebody in this blog convinced me that there could be serious problems in moving from Finland. One of them could be family. You are married to a Finn and you have children and your wife does not want to move! What should one do? He cannot live his children behind! That was one example. Some people are refugees and they do not have a nationality. Finding another’s country resident and work permit is dead hard. Especially in this bad situation. So this was another example why they cant. Being an immigrant is not really easy!
” Stop complaining about this, if you looking racism everywhere you will find it, even in a small flower in a garden.”
- Why should people stop to express themselves. What problem does it solve from you or Finland? And why does it hurt, these complaint? If they are baseless, then everybody can read and decide about it. Why the people who have criticism or complains should shut their mouth?
“All the time living here i NEVER suffer any king of racism(im a brown skin latin/brazilian) inverse, im always very well treated and have finnish friends and im always doing things to be part of society, i do not sit in a bar and start to complain.”
- Good for you. I am happy for you at least some people feel good. But we hope that by expressing the problem, we can increase the number of people who feel comfortable in Finland. Is that a bad idea? Is a nice thing that the people feel a part of that society. I myself in Sweden feel more like home than Finland. We barbeque’s with our Swedish neighbors and friends and try to be as integrated as possible in this country. The same thing could happen in Finland and people know Finland as their own home.
Cheers
So depressed
June 6, 2011
I’m surprised this thread is still going on..from 2007, it just goes to show that there are others out there like me who are completely left out from Finnish society, I’m glad to read so many different opinions here.
I moved from New York City to Finland..yes..WOW, right?
I’m approaching my first year of residency in Vaasa, Finland, and it has just struck me how left out I feel from society here.
I’ve been bawling my eyes out all night just trying to figure out how it went so unnoticed for so long, and it just hit me after one year that I haven’t seen a single black/minority cashier or salesperson in any of the stores I shop in.
I have been applying for job after job and always come up empty-handed. I thought it was the language, I thought it was the culture, and I’ve been trying..trying so hard, it seems nearly impossible.
The only person who keeps me going is my wonderful husband, he is unlike any Finnish/Finnish-Swede person I’ve run across, I dislike having to confide in him about all this because it probably makes him feel like a let-down, but I need someone to talk to!
I’m still new here..only a year, perhaps there is still some hope for me. He always tries to keep me thinking positively, and it helps temporarily at least.
There are times I’m just ready to pack all my bags and leave everything behind immediately, but that’s not realistic at this point. I miss my family and friends dreadfully. I miss the diversity of New York, I can never ever complain about it ever again.
Anyways..end of my rant. I don’t even know if I typed coherently, I’m just a mess at the moment, I feel so left out here.
Enrique
June 6, 2011
Hi So depressed, and thank you for joining us on Migrant Tales. We have all been there, even I. That place looks like a dead end but then a new day comes and we find out that things have changed for the better. The thing to keep in mind is never to give up. You are lucky if you have a good partner to stand next to you. Many us who came twenty or thirty years ago did not even apply for a job because we knew we’d never get it because we weren’t 100% Finns. Many good people who visit this blog can give you the same advice as me: don’t give up and you are not alone!
Amandrako
June 18, 2011
All of here should get a life. Somebody who is complaining about Finland being a racist nation deserved everything he/she got. If you make a victim out of yourself then you are a victim. You dont like living in Finland because “The man” doesnt give you a job? I cant tell you a lot of finss are struggling with the same problem. People just seem to think that after imigration everything is easy…no its not…its double harder, but you took that risk when you left your home country.
Mark McGreevey
June 19, 2011
All of this argument/counterargument commenting makes very interesting reading for a Finnfan like me living in San Francisco. My old European backpack friend from Aanekoski ultimately came to the US in the 1990′s and stayed 3 years, possibly illegally, but I never questioned it. She simply lived with others, usually men, and had a great time, until she advertised on a matchmaking site in Palo Alto (Silicon Valley), found a Swedish nerd and married him pronto, thinking that would faciliate her stay in USA. Alas, he hated the USA and its multicultural offerings, wanted to take his new Finnish wife home to Stockholm (Akersberg) and settle down in a good clean monoculture, as he told me one evening. However, one year before their departure, my friend finangled a workvisa, temp only, allowing her to work at a chip-making company in the marketing. The boss who interviewed her said he like her style of English, that it sounded almost Irish. Well, yes, she had learned it by hanging out with me for years, and most of my American English has an Irish background through my upbringing, down to expressions like “shilly-shally”, “shenanigans” and “blarney”, which she was using!
Meanwhile, her real life begins in USA, as a real citizen, i.e. working and paying taxes, no more fun all day. She found it impossible to deal with the nonwhite “Americans” there: Chinese and Indian programmers whose English was rapid and strange, and whose male-dominated ideas made communication difficult. Her Finnish-Irish American English amused colleagues but did not make her respected, especially because her writing skills were weak, and so much went by email already. She was still mixing up “he” and “She”, not realizing that in a professional setting, she sounded ridiculous, not just “cute”. (at 37, well!) She had had no prior work experience anywhere by stretching out the Finnish-taxpayer gravy train called endless university education, so she had no idea how to get along with people, request politely instead of demanding impatiently and imperially, no “please” or “thank you”. She couldn’t master the critical smalltalk needed, even in the post office of the building, where Mexicans handled the Fed Ex and UPS mailings for the staff. She would get in conflict with them by not smiling, telling a joke, complimenting them or saying what a nice day it was. She then would complain endlessly to me about the “stupid Americans” and “all these foreigners”, mainly because she could not wrap her mind around our business thinking and social yak-yak. She wouldn’t find out what the average colleaugue was talking about, because she announced how she hated American television and popular culture, how stupid it was.
Well, you can guess the end result for this Finn with a M.Sc. (Nutrition) and an MBA. She was let go, unable to adapt to the real world, the work world of America. When she was only a guest, or someone’s lover, she was fine; as a real producer and contributor to the USA, she couldn’t perform at all.
Mind you, this was a very educated, well-travelled and smart woman, my old friend. Her shortcomings hit her ONLY when she got real about life in the USA, which is work and money to support one’s self, no welfare.
Ultimately her job was gone, the Swedish fellow bailed, and she moved back to Helsinki to her parents’ investment apartment, to stay on welfare as a single Mom ever since, never using her diplomas AT ALL!!!
thenewstateman
June 23, 2011
Hi
I am going to Helsinki for business. I am going to assess an instrument that we invented but licensed by this company in Finland. Basically I want to make sure that it works fine before I accept it. I am a scientist. A physicist. University Professor. I am from the States. I am American. I have a heavy beard. I am not in Finland to immigrate I am here for a week TOP but this blog scared the shit out of me. So if I hang out in the street or if I go to a museum or a handicraft place i might get mugged by people? because i don’t fit the landscape? If I want to hop to Talinn I might get abused. Will I be ill treated at the airport. I have never been to Finland but I have friends from Finland. They are very sweet people and they told me already welcome to Finland. I met people from Scandinavia. Actually I helped the son of the richest man in Norway to cruise with me in Patagonia but I have never set foot in Scandinavia. This will be my first time and I am already scared. I am even thininking of not leaving the hotel. Oh I forgot. I am a swimmer. Will I be able to go to a swimming pool without being asked what are I am doing? Or if my beard would not soil the water? I am asking all these questions because before I travel anywhere I check where i am going. So I discovered this blog. I think some people are extreme in their views but I want a voice of reason to tell me if these problems are inherent to people who live there for long stretches of time or you might experience the heat when you step off the plane if you are unlucky. Again I am not looking for something like a racist slur against anyone. I just need an answer from an informed source. Thanks in Advance.
Enrique
June 23, 2011
Hi thenewstateman, welcome to our blog, Migrant Tales. Even though racist attacks have increased in Finland and become more covered by the media, it is impossible to give you a how-to-avoid trouble in Helsinki and Finland. That depends on you and, as you pointed out, have the bad luck of being the wrong color, wrong accent, wrong time and meeting up with the wrong people in the wrong place. I know of black people who have got harrassed in public while they were dancing with a Finnish woman, thugs ready to attack a person because he is in immigrant and many other cases. I have also heard of people who have come here and nothing has happened. I worked in Colombia for two years and even if it is one of the most violent places in the world, nothing ever happened to me. If you live in the US, you follow certain rules: don’t visit dangerous neighborhoods at certain times.
The worst ones are those that are drunk. They are the ones that can end up insulting and attacking you. Are there a lot of inebriated people in Helsinki at night? Yes. Do racist attacks happen in this country? Yes. Did an anti-immigration party win 19.1% of the votes in April? Yes. Are some Finns xenophobic? Yes.
In sum, we hope you have a great time in Finland and that your visit goes well and have the best time of your life.
Hannu
June 24, 2011
thenewstateman no you arent, stop lying. If you were you know well enough to not trust random persufobic paranoid blogger.
J
June 25, 2011
Hi,
I was looking into travelling to Finland for a few weeks and really get a feel of the country (i.e. not just the tourist-y places) but after reading up on this blog, I think I probably WONT go after all. I’m ethnically Indian, grew up in Dubai, studied at a British school and now live and work in Canada. So you can say multi-culturalism and getting along with loads of people from different cultures was a part of my upbringing and life. I guess it’s sad to see it still rear its head in Finland, especially since I have heard so many other wonderful things about the country.
It’s funny, I went to Iceland a few months back and had the time of my life there. Icelanders were so genuinely nice and quite a few went out of their way to help me. Hopefully in the future, things will change in Finland. I hope to visit then!
Cheers,
J
Enrique
June 25, 2011
Hi J and welcome to Migrant Tales. We are especially sad that racism and xenophobia has lifted its head in Finland in big time. It will take a while, but I believe politicians will wake up to this menace. We have had too little leadership on this front especially from mainstream politicians and political parties that have preferred not to challenge this social ill. Now with the Perussuomalaiset (PS) winning 19.1% of the votes in April, these politicians, who were quite or too soft on racism, are now seeing themselves threatened by it through the PS. Possibly they will change their strategy and be more outspoken in order to send this social ill back to where it came from.
Hannu
July 4, 2011
J dont listen enrique, you will find people interested on your background and when its clear (and in case of indians its normally clear) that youre visiting us and mean no harm you will find same what you found in iceland. Enrique is paranoid.
If you travel with certain respect of locals you probably wont get in trouble, if you treat people with “culturally enriched” ways your jaws will dislocate.
Only case i remember in this “culturally dull” place where tourist got himself in trouble was when he groped local girl because she did wear short skirt, thats not acceptable and he was in hospital. Girls decide who they like and clothes are irrelevant, remember this. Also remember that even unknown man are more than willing to protect woman.
Shortly no touching, no groping, nothing what woman wont approve.
thenewstateman
July 5, 2011
It looks like the moderator deleted my response to Hannu.
Anyway. This is my tenth day in Helsinki and most of what is said is stupid generalization.
People are very friendly. They do talk if there anything to talk about. Of course I don’t go to bars and try to dance with girls. I like to meet people in more decent places.
I made a lot of friends. I traveled around. The people at the company where i was consulting were very friendly and during dinner they talk so much. So the myth the finns don’t talk is a lie. I had a blast here. Also I ended creating some jobs as well.
So if you are not decent and disrespectful and grope women of course you get in trouble.
by the way the rudes people are the russians. I did have a taste of them and they are not smooth people. May be because they are from the country and they have never been with so many people like in a city. All in all. Helsinki and Finland is a fantastic city and country and I might come back to my friend cottage in the winter to ride horse and cook in a the human-soup. So most of what is said in these posts is pure bigotry.
Enrique
July 5, 2011
thenewstateman, I am happy that you are having a great time in Finland. Thank you for telling us.
Toni
July 12, 2011
In Finland there are several cases where immigrant`s have attacked cancer patients, believing them to be neo-nazis. I am professional-athele, I too have been harassed by immigrants, beucause of my hairstyle (or lack of it). I don´t like this “multicultural” bullshit. In 1930 there where nazis and their master race. Today we got muslims and threir master religion. We need another Wlad Tepes.
Enrique
July 12, 2011
Hi Toni, welcome to our blog, Migrant Tales. It’s interesting how you start your thread on the defensive (being attacked) and then you lash out. Do you reall think that Muslims see themselves as the master religion as you call them? Are you ready to turn our society upside down because you can’t stomach other religions?
I truly believe you should stay off the spiritual alcohol (Homma, Scripta and other hate sites) and try to read up on the real facts. I could live off fear and lead a miserable life. There is no need for you to do so. Go to the right sources.
FG
July 12, 2011
How are you?
I am about to leave my country to study in Finland as an undergraduate student. Now I am concerned of the facts I read here.
I just want to know how is it like in Finland before I leave. I have never been to any other foreign country than Australia. I would be really glad if anyone can compare the level of racism in both countries.
Many Thanks
Enrique
July 12, 2011
Hi FG, and thank you for dropping by Migrant Tales. We get a lot of these types of questions and to be sincere they are difficult to answer. Your stay depends on yourself. Are you white? Black? Are you a visible foreigner? Did you unluckily find yourself to be in the wrong place at the wrong time? It all depends.
When I was hired to work in one of the most violent countries in the world (Colombia), I thought what it would be like. I knew, however, that despite the violence there were good people and great times awaited. I was right. But the first thing I tried to learn was where I should go in the capital Bogotá and at what time. I don’t like to go out on Saturday nights in Finland because there are too many drunks and they can spell trouble for a foreigner.
The only way you will get an answer to your question is by getting your feet wet. Many that have come have had a great time. But if you read the threads on “Are you a target of racism in Finland,” it’s obvious that some have had bad experiences.
Jaakko
July 12, 2011
“Do you reall think that Muslims see themselves as the master religion as you call them?”
If more than a third support Sharia law and killing for religion and nearly one third of young muslims support killing of apostates, one could be a little conserned.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/2461830/Killing-for-religion-is-justified-say-third-of-Muslim-students.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html
Also the fact that in Middle East there is only one country that is considered having free democracy, and that country is Israel, could say something about Islam colliding with freedom and democracy (and therefore Western states).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_in_the_Middle_East#Israel
Let’s say one third of the Finnish immigrants in Sweden would say they support Finnish domination in Sweden and wan’t their own Finnish tribal forest god and koskenkorvadrinker laws for themselves and maybe later for whole Sweden and Europe, and that they support killing those who do not like salmiakki and sauna. You would be terrified. For sure, since you already wrote all those panic posts about Finnish rising nazism and racism and white power movements that soon will take over the whole country, after ONE FIFTH of the voters voted for True Finns, populist centre party.
20% political support for a populist but still very mild farmers’ party is enough for you to say Finland is on the verge to fall into right wing nazism, closed border policy and xenophobia. Yet I’m sure you will find excuses to say 40% support for Sharia law doesn’t say anything about Muslims’ views about freedom of religion and the place of their own religion.
And now you can tell some lies to FG about how every non-finn is beaten up in Finland, even though during the last 10 years foreigners have assaulted relatively more Finns than Finns have assaulted foreigners in Helsinki.
Hannu
July 12, 2011
“Are you ready to turn our society upside down because you can’t stomach other religions? ”
My religion tells me to kill infidels till my religion is superior and some of others may then exists if they pay taxes (this is only for mans of book, others should be killed anyway) for protection (mafia way), of course not all in my religion do this but only some but since its word of god we have to believe it. Can you handle my religion?
Enrique
July 12, 2011
Hannu, if you thought a little bit deeper and reasoned and stayed off the strong stuff (Homma and Scripta), you’d notice that it is all a bunch of baloney.
Hannu
July 12, 2011
Enrique so you can say how and why what i said i lie, do it.
Enrique
July 12, 2011
–Enrique so you can say how and why what i said i lie, do it.
Say what? Come on, Hannu…
Karo
July 12, 2011
J, I think you should really visit Finland if you so wish. After all Finland has reputation of being overall one of the safest countries in the world, though the Iceland that you visioted might be even safer methinks.
If you are interested in finding non-touristy places then you’re in luck. We don’t have many of them since Finland isn’t really big on tourism. Finland isn’t a complete backwater, but then again tourism isn’t very important either. Downside is it might be hard to locate a tourist information office, even in Helsingfors.
I wouldn’t pass trip to a country that I would be interested in based on rumours or posts of malice on any internet blog, unless it would seem that the country’d would have problem of nationwide unrest like a civil war.
This blog methinks might give quite a negative impression to a foreigner who has never visited this country. But I think it’s good living in here even if I have had to hear and bare some racist remarks.
So in short, I bid thee welcome to the land of a thousand lakes and nearly as many islands!!
P.S thenewstateman me bucko. I’m glad you enjoy your stay in Finland or enjoyed since you have maybe alreary left. Also if you don’t mind me askin’ a personal question are you good at dancing waltz or some other ballroom dances? Or perhap you are more proficient in salsa, rumba or cha-cha chaa?
Karo
July 12, 2011
When I was a little boy my mom warned me to stay clear of people with saved heads and from those that wear Finnish Lion symbol on their persons in any form. I think that was abit too much though.
Toni
July 15, 2011
Finland has been multicultular for long time. Russian POW:s, trying to escape from trains, witch would take them back to mother russia. Tataris like Marat Safin, I like. Did my last post; have too much truth so it hah to be deleted.
Toni
July 15, 2011
Truth doest´t mean shit here, so I say it again: Immigrants in helsinki were less than 5% and convicted rapist were immigrants 58% of time, in 2007, in Oslo its over 90% Someone has to put a feet down!
Toni
July 15, 2011
I know you will remove the truth, cos U just CAN`T HADLE IT!
Toni
July 15, 2011
You fucking retards…what happened in kosovo, will happen here….
Toni
July 15, 2011
If you don´t like Finland, go somewhere else, wrere you can leech money and get free educaion. And take your sexcrimes with you.
Toni
July 15, 2011
58% of rapists in Finland, were immingrants, in 2007. Cencore this….its in the police-files….finland is the new kosovo.
jaakko
July 15, 2011
Toni kuule. Olisiko mitenkään mahdollista saada ne viikonlopun känniavautumiset yhteen viestiin?
Toni
July 15, 2011
No vittu kun kaikki sensuroidaan, ei voi sano että ulkomaalainen vähemmistö on useimpien rikoksien takana.
manuel andrade
July 16, 2011
I am from Portugal.
I was just walking around on immigration web pages, since I got some academic works to do and I was looking for opinions and bibliography. Well this site seems to be quite interesting in sort of the posted comments.
In reality, the political imposition establish by Europe politicians are in a way to promote large waves of immigration from the 3º world countries to our continent. I do not know exactly the extension of the emigration problematic at Finland, but as a Portuguese and a European citizen I am really concerned about this problems and negatives effects on the future of further generations. Western Europe it is like a kind of deposit for immigrants. It is amazing the millions of euro that are being spending in crap government politics completely failed in a way to stop racism!!??
Well it is not difficult to stop it. It is only need to implement other policies less damaged to our society. I mean to stop immediately this immigration sickness that it is made a large contamination on our beloved countries.
• Robbery
• Violence
• Sexual harassment / Sexual assault
• Social disturbance
• Racial pollution
• Social parasitation
• Financial prejudices
Are only some of the negatives effects provided by the implementation of fallen policies that are obligating Europeans to adopted new strategies to deal with the immigration problem. In my opinion, racism or ethnic intolerance it is only an answer caused by globalised measures that are attacking our culture, proud and values.
Manuel de Andrade
Joel
July 17, 2011
I’ve been lurking on this blog for a few months now and occasionally post. I have to agree wholeheartedly with many if not all of the things that Maria and others were posting.
I’m American, of Mexican-American background, so yes, my tall, super blond Finnish gf and I stand out a bit. This summer I traveled around from Helsinki to Kuopio to Kuhmo to Kuusamo and Rovaniemi and never once did I ever experience a bad time. Sure we would get looks almost anywhere we went but I know a racist look from a curious one. I honestly believe some of the had simply never seen a Latino guy before. But as soon as I opened my mouth to speak and I smiled, never ever did I experience rudeness. Actually the only time I had someone rude was when we came across a group of Americans at the breakfast buffet. Sorry I like my Brits, Aussies, Canadians and Irish, but Americans abroad get on my nerves.
Here are a couple of facts I would state:
1) If Enrique wants to focus on racism and the elimination of such, he would do better to focus on Latin America. I have traveled for business reasons to Mexico, Dominican Republic, Costa Rica, Panama, Colombia, Venezuela, Peru, Brazil and Chile. By far Brazil was the best, but rest had very significant degrees of racism with Mexico being the absolute worst. Think I am lying? Turn on your TV to any latin american channel and you will see what I mean. Bottom line, I have zero desire to visit Latin America for tourism outside of Patagonia.
2) I met all of my gf’s immediate family and felt completely accepted. They were impressed with my knowledge of Finland, the history, the culture, the wars fought to create that great country.
3) Along the same lines of above, if you take some time to learn the language/culture, embrace things unknown and or different than what you are used to, the Finns respect that. As a visitor and or immigrant to the country, you are a guest and the obligation is on YOU to become more Finnish. Actually, that is correct for any place in the world.
4) I don’t even live in Finland and I can’t stand the foreign whiners who live there. My gf and I were invited to dinner at her friends flat. The bf of her friend (of Middle East origin) went on and on about Finland and how he hated this and that and the people, etc etc. Pissed me the fuck off because he is talking about my woman as well. I let him finish and mentioned, sorry dude, I don’t know you, but here is the deal, if you don’t like Finland, why don’t you just fuck off and leave and why have you stayed for 6 years? Also, nothing personal, but I don’t even live in Finland and I speak better Finnish and Swedish than you do. He was rude / quiet to me after that, but that’s ok, I made him open up his Johnny Walker Blue Label bottle and drank 1/5th of the bottle in one glass
I restrained myself from saying anything else esp as she has been friends with her for 10+ years. Not next time though.
The point is, I have been to 30+ countries thus far and I am sorry, I don’t buy what this blog is selling, that Finland is a racist country. Homogenous? Yes. Are there some ignorant people who possibly live there? Yes, but that is anywhere. Do Finn’s feel a strong pride within their nation? Absolutely, but if any non-Finn did a bit of reading they would admire the FInnish people for their bravery and battles. Hell thats one of the things I love about my gf, give me a strong, independent, intelligent Finnish woman any day over a whiny California girl that crys when it rains.
thenewstateman
July 17, 2011
Joel spot on. U rd my mind.
Mikael
July 17, 2011
Best post in the entire threat Joel, you got two thums up! That middle-eastern guy probably stays in the coutry to leech the easy money finns give to immigrants, and “rapy” muslims are tolerated here, way too much. I still believe that finland, has hope.
Enrique
July 17, 2011
HI Joel, I am happy you are enjoying Finland. Just because you are doesn’t mean that others have the right to voice themselves. If you think there is no racism in Finland and all that we write is a fabrication, that is your right.
Racism is a problem everywhere, even in Latin America. Instead of “whining about the whiners” why don’t you give us some concrete proposals? That would help.
vincebel
July 18, 2011
agree with Joel, even if i was the whiner the first year i arrived. Once u know the language, culture, habits and u RESPECT them then its fine.
To live here you have to become a bit more finnish everyday. and if finnish people wants to learn your culture. fine. but dont force them.
If they dont want, its not racism or xenophobia. they just dont need it in their everyday life.
Enrique
July 19, 2011
Vincebel, adapting to a new culture may be more difficult for some people than for others. It is a personal thing. Moreover, we shouldn’t be too hard on ourselves. Speaking out is a good sign of integration. If I had to worry about some groups, I’d worry about those that never say anything.
You, as well as thousands of others, are testimony that immigrants can fit in well in this country if given the opportunity.
vincebel
July 19, 2011
Of course its more difficult for some than others. Being from Belgium its easier for me (except the language of course) and im sure i will have more troubles if i move lets say to Japan.
My point was that its good and normal to bring our own culture and habits with us in a new country but if, for some reasons, they dont fit in the host country, we shouldnt force people to accept them and practice those cultures and habits at a personal level.
This is a problem with some immigrants (every country, culture) that are sure that their own clture is better. They might be right but if it doesnt fit within the host country laws, habits and culture then it can lead to dicrimination towards them.
vincebel
July 19, 2011
And its not a easy subject but across Europe, discrimination or racism is often against the same group of immigrants who can not, refuse to adapt.
In the other way some groups of immigrants never never have any problems in their host country cos they adapt more easily by respecting the host country.
we both know which group we talk about but i hate to generalize. But even among people i know some are trying to endoctrinate their wives, sons, daughters with their own views and cultures which are against finnish (European) values. then they complain that they are victims of discrimination
Tiwaz
July 19, 2011
“Vincebel, adapting to a new culture may be more difficult for some people than for others. It is a personal thing.”
So what? Some people get maths easier than others. It is no excuse.
“Moreover, we shouldn’t be too hard on ourselves.”
Wrong. You should be hard on yourself. Because it is YOUR responsibility to adjust yourself to society.
“Speaking out is a good sign of integration. If I had to worry about some groups, I’d worry about those that never say anything.”
Whining that Finland “is not like at home” is not sign of integration, it is sign of failure which tries to peg the blame on someone else.
“You, as well as thousands of others, are testimony that immigrants can fit in well in this country if given the opportunity.”
Are you reading same posts as I am? They have not said ANYTHING about being given opportunity, they are instead speaking of IMMIGRANT ADJUSTING THEMSELVES TO SOCIETY!
This is not “being given an opportunity”, this is about them admitting that they are no longer in Kansas and they have to change their attitudes to fit their surroundings.
Enrique
July 19, 2011
–My point was that its good and normal to bring our own culture and habits with us in a new country but if, for some reasons, they dont fit in the host country, we shouldnt force people to accept them and practice those cultures and habits at a personal level.
You are right, Vincebel, and I am sure that after they get over the initial culture shock of adapting to their new home, things begin to change. But like adaption, it is different from person to person. Some first generation immigrants may feel like a “guest” and therefore don’t try to rock the boat so to speak. This, naturally, changes in the second generation when the kids become more vocal about their rights. Remember that some of them may have seen how their parents were discriminated and do not rightfully want that type of thing happening to them.
Humans are highly adaptive. They want to belong to a group because they are social animals. If one claims the contrary, there must be a reason. It is a complex topic.
Enrique
July 19, 2011
–Wrong. You should be hard on yourself. Because it is YOUR responsibility to adjust yourself to society.
Tiwaz, people don’t live in boot camp. Are you sure you aren’t a drill sergeant?
Your suggestions on how immigrants should adapt to Finland is like a surgeon carrying out heart surgery with a chainsaw.
When people move to a new country they do so to seek opportunities. Giving opportunities are doors to adaption like work.
Tiwaz
July 19, 2011
“Tiwaz, people don’t live in boot camp. Are you sure you aren’t a drill sergeant?”
Most immigrants would get much benefit from military training. Learning to take responsibility for their own errors.
“Your suggestions on how immigrants should adapt to Finland is like a surgeon carrying out heart surgery with a chainsaw.”
And your solution is apartheid against Finns.
“When people move to a new country they do so to seek opportunities. Giving opportunities are doors to adaption like work.”
Here we go again. FIRST INTEGRATE THEN WORK. Because for most jobs person who has little to no grasp of proper local etiquette are worthless.
If immigrant has no skills desired by employer, they get no work. It is their own fault for not having those skills.
Immigrants do not deserve any special handholding. They have to get on with their own means instead of demanding majority to appease them.
Nightmare
July 21, 2011
I bet immigrants in Finlad, does´nt know that Finland is militrary country. 82% of finish males are military. Rapy shit they do will only hasten the their end. Finland is the bosnia of 2011.
alien
July 24, 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxFO0UGVEBk
alien
July 24, 2011
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxFO0UGVEBk&feature=player_embedded
Joel
July 24, 2011
Thanks guys for the thumbs up. I have been out many weekends in HKI and while we traveled around the country, never had issues thus far. Actually the other night, I was in a bar around the city center, while at the urinal this guy with a shaved head spoke to me in Finnish. I answered back “sorry dude, im from california, still learning Finnish” he asked me what I thought of Finland. I answered, “its great man, the people are respectful, beautiful countryside, great culture”. He answered back that it was nice to hear, I told him, nice to meet you. I went back and sat down next to my gf, then 2min later he handed me a beer and said, welcome to Finland. No joke.
Can’t say the same for being in the US South, there are some places there where it is literally dangerous to be of a different color. Solutions for the whiners? Learn Finnish, embrace the weather, the food and the people. Wait a year to get used to it, thats usually the time it requires to get the “feel” of a new country. If you still don’t like it after 1.5 years then move, life is too short to be unhappy within your living situation. Its just that simple.
Btw – i’ll be attending my first crayfish party in August. Any advice?
Enrique
July 24, 2011
Hi Alien thank you for the link. What happened in Norway is a wake up call to all of us that racism and xenophobia have no place in our society. Even so, some people like our politicians are in denial. They don’t even think that racism is a problem in Finland only a “minor one.” By not acknowledging that there is racism is the same as sticking your head in the sand. Immigrants shouldn’t demand anything because we treat them fine (sic!).
alien
July 24, 2011
Hi Enrique;
What happened in Oslo was horrific. The guy who did it had disguised himself as a police man. He had called upon people to gather and people trusted him and gathered. Then he killed them almost one by one.
Once again we can see that stupidity is not limited to race, religion, hair, and eye color. And the victims in this case have been both the immigrant children mostly 14-18 and the native Norwegian. So we should all be united against this brutality. No matter what hair or eye color we have, if we want to have a better world for our children.
Cheers
Tiwaz
July 25, 2011
“Hi Alien thank you for the link. What happened in Norway is a wake up call to all of us that racism and xenophobia have no place in our society. Even so, some people like our politicians are in denial. They don’t even think that racism is a problem in Finland only a “minor one.” By not acknowledging that there is racism is the same as sticking your head in the sand. Immigrants shouldn’t demand anything because we treat them fine (sic!).”
Ah. And tragedy in Norway again gives Enrique excuse to go on racist flurry of comments.
ONE lunatic in Norway commits heinous crime like this, and you are preaching fire and brimstone against entire society.
Where is your condemnation when we have immigrants overrepresented in rape statistics?
Where is your condemnation when we have immigrants starting fires killing natives?
Where is your condemnation when it is immigrant or culturally unintegrated people committing these terror deeds?
THEN it is always individual, even if they act in group, but not when it is native lunatic who IS alone in his deed.
Your attempts to turn this tragedy into your own disgusting form of racism makes me sick.
I would have expected more show of respect towards those who perished in this crime than this.
alien
July 25, 2011
Yes Tiiwaz I think we all agree that terror and violence is condemned, no matter who has committed that. For those who appreciate the fruit of liberal societies, it is important to unite against these sort of barbarism and shouting loud that killing and omitting each other does not solve any thing. On contrary open dialogue gives us more chances to erase misunderstanding and open a way toward cooperation and friendship. We all want a better world for our children. Lets work against children and teenagers get killed in schools, exploited as jihadi suicide bombers and the way they slaughtered in Norway.
Cheers
boredinfinland
July 28, 2011
Joel,try to live here and you will see it. One thing is to come here during summer time, but a very different one is to settle here. Check other forums for expats living here, and you will see a strinking common belief: this country is number one in exclusion….opportunities for foreginers are almost zero. Most of britóns, aussies, and americans give testimony of that.
boredinfinland
July 28, 2011
vincebel says that it is fine to live in Finland once you learn the language, however, in his case, eventhough he has mastered the language, he has not been able to secure a job in his profession and he is now looking for studying nursing (!!!!!). How many years trying to be accepted by Finns? 4 plus another 3 ???? Dude, you are the vivid example of exclusion and racism that this blog is exposing! some people here suffer from stockholm syndrome….they are in love with those who make them suffer
vincebel
July 28, 2011
lol.
ive not been able to find a job in my profession cos im a tropical entomologist dumbass…show me a rainforest in Finland and ill go.
and ive been working for 7 months now in a nature museum.
I could work for 25euros per hour if i want but its a shitty job in a chemicallly poisonous environment but my health comes before the money. and i would like to study nursing its a personal choice.
as for integration 99percent of my friends are finish and i avoid stupid foreigners like you
stop being jealous dude and open your mind too towards them.
and ive never never suffered from exclusion in Finland. The job market is the same over Europe, im not sure i could get a job in Belgium neither.
Joel
July 29, 2011
Hmm interesting points. You are certainly correct, things look very different whenever you are fulltime anywhere or the “grass is always greener” somewhere else. Zero plans to move to FI anytime soon though. My point on my earlier comment was that that Finland in my opinion is not an inherently racist country. After many business trips, countless drunken nights till 4am+ never did I have an issue. I’ve been to 30 countries and I’ve lived in the US South, I know what racism is and I avoid it. One common question a guy asks another guy is “what type of girls do you like?” My answer? I like girls that like me, i like to start there.I extrapolate that in general as well.
btw im curious bored and vince, have you guys met before?
vincebel
July 29, 2011
no never met. which is interesting how he can know so much about me
Enrique
July 29, 2011
Vincebel, maybe you’re famous?
vincebel
July 29, 2011
haha no i dont think so
boredinfinland
July 30, 2011
Joel, as Enrique has said here, racism is something that is hidden, not in the surface, and many here, specially after what happened in Norway would not dare to be open and honest about their beliefs. I know there are a lot of issues in the whole American continent, but at least you can be elegible for a job interview there and have a chance to have a job . I know because my home country gives a lot of opportunities to Europeans who want to settle there. Whereas here in Finland it is not easy for a foreigner to have opportunities. It is virtually impossible to be call for an interview!
vincebel
July 30, 2011
‘Whereas here in Finland it is not easy for a foreigner to have opportunities. It is virtually impossible to be call for an interview!’
On that point i agree with you. But i think its anyway normal that if two people have the same education, experience and skills, the employer should hire the finish guy. I dont see racism or discrimination here.
There is if the foreigner with better skills is not hired.
But if they really need you they will hire you. just put forward in your Cv some special skills that no finish can have.
So in Finland they need nurses and they dont need tropical entomologists
.
JusticeDemon
July 30, 2011
vincebel
You are a tropical entomologist dumbass?
So what happened when you applied for any of the various international assignments regularly advertised by Finnida and other international agencies? I know one immigrant graduate specialist in tropical forestry who won damages after contesting the appointment of an underqualified Finn to a job in the tropics. That should have smoothed your path a bit.
* One solution when you don’t know how apostrophes work in English is to stop using them altogether.
boredinfinland
July 30, 2011
No Vince, I am now jelaous, I feel sorry for you.Why should I be envious of somebody who after 5 or 6 years of living in Finland has not been able to integrate into society by having a proper job and income? No dude, we should be exposing your situation as an example of what is the real situation for foreigners in this Country. Integration has nothing to do with having only Finnish friends, dude, it has to be with having equal opportunities than the natives enjoy.On the other hand, I bet that you could have a proper job in your profession in Belgium even if there are not tropical forrests in Europe (otherwise why you studied that subject?). Here as well -in research, innovation, etc-, if they trust you, but you know they dont because you are not a Finn educated in the finnish system.
I could understand your thinking behind in defending here the way Finns behave towards foreigners if you were Flemish, since I know, because of research published in the area, and personal experiences while living there, that the flemish area of Belgium is the most xenofobic part of the planet. But no. I only can see the oximoron, your tales describing how you try to survive in this society, and yet defending the non-sense
vincebel
July 30, 2011
‘You are a tropical entomologist dumbass?’
lol. agree with u on that one
well sorry but had a tough day so i didnt need a lot to be upset.
Anyway. i had possibilities for doing a PhD, also working in south America, Africa, Panama.
But right now id rather stay with my family and my 3years old son (whom education is perfect in Finland) than earning 3K per month. Im happy like that and i knew what to expect when i came in Finland.
Anyway i have more and more chances to work in a nature museum as en entomologist dumbass
. But just for some short term periods. So now i go to study and work part time in the museum and hoping that the old lady will retire soon 
cos im the next one on the list.
vincebel
July 30, 2011
and no im from the french part
And i studied tropical stuff cos my plan was to emigrate in Australia, where i met a finish girl and we know the rest…
and agree that the dutch part is quite xenophobic, even towards people from the same country
and its 4 years not 6
and i apologise for my earlier comment but seriously many finns are good people
Enrique
July 30, 2011
I totally agree with you boredinfinland. After living for about 30 years in Finland, I have finally landed a semi-permanent job. Every time I move aborad, however, I am hired as a staffer. The situation is improving from 20-30 years ago but it still has a lot to be desired. Jobs are the best integrator for an immigrant. Confining him or her to a lifetime of training courses and unemployment checks is not the way to go.
Enrique
July 30, 2011
Sometimes I wonder what is in the head of these Counter-Jihadists and what kinds of dreams they have at night. I found this link to a blog of guy who praises Halla-aho after he was elected on April 17:
http://islamversuseurope.blogspot.com/2011/04/leading-counterjihadist-elected-to.html
It appears that the only one who is playing his role as a Counter-Jihadist is supposedly Halla-aho.
Hannu
July 30, 2011
Enrigue give me 30mins and ill create blog what praises you as counterjihadist, i dont know what you want to accomplish with that and i dont know what or why is wrong to be one. Please elaborate. Why you are counter-jihadist?
Enrique
July 31, 2011
Hannu, I had to unapprove two threads because they were offensive to me and other on this blog.
Enrique
July 31, 2011
Hannu, I had to unapprove two threads because they were offensive to me and others on this blog.
What does Counter-Jihadist mean to you? The term came to Finland thanks to Toby Archer
You too speak about the threat of Islam and all that other baloney. However, could you honestly say you have lived in a country that has suffered from terrorism. It seems that you are (a) reading too many hate sites and (b) believing their over-inflated myths. Do yourself and your future a favor: get off them.
D
August 2, 2011
The upper pennisula of the state of Michigan in the US has a very low population to land mass, a natural boundary that insulates it from the other parts of the country, and large portion of it is a nature preserve protected from development. It also, coincidently, has a large Finnish immigrant population. The migration occurred last century fwiw.
The description I am reading of those who are Finnish in this blog reminds me of those living in the UP greatly. They aren’t unwordly, or hicks, far from it in fact. They are just insulated from others, known each other for generations, and set in their ways.
My great grandfather built a cottage on a lake there almost 80 years ago now. My grandmother, mother, myself, and my child all went there every summer as kids through adulthood. We are still considered outsiders, even though the people have know us for decades. Unfailing polite, and pleasant to us it there is an unfailing common thread in all of our interactions with the residents… a certain wariness of those who are not part of the year roud community.
If we were people of color, and/or foreigners I’d imagine this would be filtered differently by myself. I’d not be surprised to find that many Finnish people are prejudiced, it comes with developing yours opinions based off feelings and emotions or limited interation rather then direct experiences. I’d hope that most were not racist, a horse of a very different color if you’ll excuse the joke.
Thanks for your time
Enrique
August 2, 2011
Hi D and welcome to Migrant Tales. It must be beautiful country in the UP. When you spoke of your summerhouse, I got memories of ours in Finland and how it formed a big part of our lives.
It is a good matter that some Finns have the courage to debate social ills like racism instead of adding water to the hot sauna stones. This is positive. It’s like the United States that had the courage to question its racism and give birth to one of its greatest men, Martin Luther King.
D
August 2, 2011
Thanks for the nice welcome Enrique, I feel included in the discussion almost three years later. An accomplish indeed from the admin
Also thanks for not bashing the US’ faults over my head to make a point. That way leads to armed camps and very little discussion. You may be surprised to learn I do not hold MLK in quite the same high regard that you do after reading below. Others paved the way, he got the credit, based on his being idolized in death to summarize. Tiananmen Square man,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Man, is someone who I hold in higher regard… someone with the heart of a lion who stops a column of tanks with two shopping bags and a great big attitude is a person to admire 
Racism is present in the majority and the minority of any society. The more homogenous, and unchanging the more likely it will show up. On the other hand, the exact opposite situation is just as likely to occur. Big changes in a short time, by those who challenge the very fabric of ones basics views of the world. People don’t like change in bunches, especially the radical, defies conventional logic version. It tends to make them uncomfortable, defensive, and angry.
You can absolutely see it in the responses on both sides at times. My way is better and you are basically an ignorant savage who isn’t even able to see right from wrong. Those that catagorically reject the society they chose to intergrate into and those who only see tradition equals right vs a different view of the world…. it describes them both to a T.
I’ve got more of this self indulgent stuff so I’ll stop now before it gets to deep
-D
Gina
August 21, 2011
Hi there tremendous blog post on Are you a target of racism in Finland? Migrant Tales mike the situation fights ronnie video.
Deepthinker
September 10, 2011
Those 10 things are not rasism. Most Finnish act like that like, everybody, each other too, you just don’t understand kulture. I am Finnish and i have face some those ten discrimination from my fellows, and worse things. It must be some kind of cultural thing that no one newer explain me. I blame school system.
Enrique
September 10, 2011
Hi Deepthinker and welcome to Migrant Tales. You are right that many of our attitudes are reinforced at school.
uzma
September 18, 2011
Yes Finnish people are rascist.
You can not walk safely at night time no way.
Enrique
September 19, 2011
Hi Uzma, I had a discussion about this on Saturday over a friend’s house. In my hometown in eastern Finland, as a rule some Africans go to bars always in groups of three. It’s a precaution. But as you know the real problem are the night clubs where people drink and become aggressive. Hostility is all around when some of these drunkards and not-so-drunk people are let loose to the streets after the night clubs close.
I agree: Some Finnish people are pretty racist!
Enrique
September 19, 2011
Here is a funny rebuttal to Jussi Hala-aho’s suggestion that Greece should have a military junta to quell protestors: http://maxkeiser.com/2011/09/19/finnish-mp-what-greece-needs-at-this-particular-point-in-time-is-a-military-junta-that-would-not-have-to-worry-about-its-popularity-and-could-use-tanks-to-enforce-some-order-among-strikers-and-rio/comment-page-1/
uzma
September 19, 2011
2 out of 4 times people shout at me in Finnish when i am on street in the day light. I have been often shown middle finger. On the bus stop i was alone and one Finnish guy snatched some of my grocery. I complained to police but they were right in saying that they cant catch the guy coz no cameras were there. its not my fault if they dont have jobs or broken family
I have to survive here for 2 more years coz i signed a contract with a company that is funding the project.
what can i do. how to avoid finnish people on streets.
Klay_Immigrant
September 19, 2011
Enrique as a precaution why don’t you tell the Africans that instead of going in a group of 3 why don’t they make some Finnish friends and go with them. If they can’t/won’t find some Finnish friends then there lies the problem and it’s not with the natives. It’s called integration.
Klay_Immigrant
September 19, 2011
uzma grow up, do you really think that anyone is going to believe your lies? Your the type of paranoid person who thinks that anyone close to them speaking in Finnish must be saying bad things about you. If this is not scare mongering then I don’t know what it. The equivalent at the other end of the spectrum would be for someone to claim any girl who goes to a neighbourhood with a high immigrant population is guaranteed to be raped. Sound stupid? Well think about what you said.
Enrique
September 20, 2011
Hi uzma, harassment in public is also a crime in Finland. Why not get in touch with the Ombudsman for Minorities and have a chat with them about these things. You can call them daily from 10-12 at 071 878 8666.
One of the problem that I have noticed is that there are conflicting reports from the authorities on what to do if, say, you are harassed in public. Please come back to us and tell us what the Ombudsman for Minorities recommended.
Enrique
September 20, 2011
–Enrique as a precaution why don’t you tell the Africans that instead of going in a group of 3 why don’t they make some Finnish friends and go with them.
I am certain they would if they could.
Hannu
October 7, 2011
There is good example enrique approved racism, they do look like racists so its ok.
Enrique
October 7, 2011
Hannu, is that how we are going to meet one day?
Makoti
October 26, 2011
I am a Finnish female and have lived abroad (UK and South Africa) for the last 10 years. What surprises in some Finns’ attitudes towards foreigners is their obsession to get them live and think like a Finn. I feel we Finns have some deep rooted insecurities about our cultural identity that makes many of us so intolerant towards any different lifestyles and values. Quite frankly, I think in some respect even post-apartheid SA is doing better than my home country in trying to ensure that people have the same opportunities regardless of their skin colour! During my time in SA I have never felt pressurised to live in “South African way” (whatever this means in a country with such a mixture of different subcultures) and whatever life style I have adopted it has been my own choice. People are sincerely curious, open to new experiences and willing to accept you the way you are -even an atheist like me gets accepted by people who hold strong religious beliefs! I wish all my country men and women could some day remove the box covering their heads and see the beauty of diversity surrounding us.
Just as a brief end note… I am moving back to Finland at the end of next year with my (multicultural) family I often think the Finnish saying “Being born in Finland is like winning in a lottery”. What does this mean? I am bringing my children to grow up in Finland so that they can benefit from the world class education. However, the compromise I am making is to “deprive” them from a multicultural environment that would truly allow them to become world citizens with high levels of openness, curiosity and acceptance. I hope I can still pass some of these values to my offspring…
Enrique
October 26, 2011
Hi Makoti and it’s nice to hear from you. Welcome to Migrant Tales. I totally agree with you that some Finns may feel insecure about their identity.
Finland is already an ever-growing culturally diverse society. If you go to Helsinki, where the most foreigners are concentrated (44,461 or about 7%), you will feel and see diversity every day. In other places, like Mikkeli, the amount of foreigners total under 2%. I consider myself a Finn with an extensive multicultural background. I am no different from many others that live in this country. What I have noticed, however, is that “we” as a group have been little acknowledged in the past. Just like South Africa learned to break the chains of Apartheid, countries like Finland will learn to live and become acceptant of diversity. In order for this to happen, people must speak out against racism and prejudice in all forms.
Believe it or not, you are coming to Finland at a very interesting time.
We wish you and your family the best of luck and hope to hear more of you on Migrant Tales.
Makoti
October 26, 2011
Hi Enrique, thanks for your post. Actually it was very relieving to read your post about “exciting times” as I have been battling in my mind about returning to Finland for the reasons I pointed out in my previous post. I think I will really miss the complete mix of people and a multicultural workplace in particular. I hope I can find a company in Helsinki that meets this need of mine. But… as I said, I’m so happy to hear that things are changing in Finland!
Hannu
October 27, 2011
Makoti so you compare SA where white farmers are slaughtered and immigrants burned alive to finland and youre worried?
Tell me honestly what kind of place in SA you live, i assume fences and armed quards.
And your “multicultural workplace”, how many of them are actually original inhabitants of that country and dont mix that to skincolour.
Makoti
October 27, 2011
Hi Hannu! No, I am not comparing the criminal activities in the two countries, I don’t think I made any reference to that aspect (and the place I live in does not have electric fences, armed guards or even an alarm system -and I’m still alive!). What I am comparing is people’s everyday mentality towards diversity. Actually I got connected with quite a few people via Facebook and learned that over the years there have been remarkable changes in Finland which I am very excited about.
With regards to your last question about multicultural workplace, Hannu, I didn’t quite catch what you mean. Please explain.
Depressed n Worried immigrant
November 27, 2011
Hi. im a foreigner living in finland 22 years. i grew up in finland and it left me with severe mental problems due to racism ive encountered and the beatings. now im stuck in here dont know where to go becus my parents brought me to finland becus our country is facing civil war. The racism i face nowadays is more like mental beating. i really dont like to go outside i am prisoned in my house, even going to the shop is hard for me becus of racism. This racism i face really made me feel inferior that there is something wrong in me or i am low person not worthy of anything. if i had the chance to move away i would but i dont have no nationality. RACISM is vary high in finland. even when im sick i dont get treatment. i broke my bones due to snow many times but becus i didnt get proper treatment or the doctors didnt want to treat me i become disapility. some people talk about job, i gave that home many years ago since ive noticed that im not wanted in this society so no job means no life. what do i do?i am totally isolated. ive been reading this blog and it made me happy to see that im not the only one whose facisng this hardship. and i also saw in this blog that some finns try to come here acting either as an immigrant belittling the racism we face or the try to belittle the racism we face and it enrages me. seriously this racism we face is not outspoken in the media. the media tends to show negative side of immigrants not what they accomplished or the positive they contribute to this society wich doesnt seem to accept them, immigrants really try to integrate but the finns are the ones trying to prevent. immigrant do the jobs finns not willing to do.. cleaning, bus driving, etc etc… the racism ive faced and still to face to this day wich made me sick mentally can be written a whole lots of chapters but t end it here will get back to you. But over all im happy that this kind of blog exist ENRIQUE TESSIERI I THANK YOU FOR THIS BLOG THIS BLOG GIVES ME HOPE BECUS MANY TIMES I REALLY GAVE UP THE HOP OF LIVING BECUS I THOUGHT THERE ISNT REALLY NOBODY FOR US DEMANDING RIGHTS FOR US WICH WE REALLY DON T HAVE. PLS CONTINUE ENRIQUE THE GOOD JOB AND PLS FOLLOW THE MEDIA. PS. HIGHLY DEPRESSED IMMIGRANT.
Enrique
November 27, 2011
Hi Depressed n Worried Immigrant, thank you for your kindness, support and welcome to our blog, Migrant Tales. The aim of our blog is
“a blog that debates some of the salient issues facing the immigrant and minority community in Finland. It aims to be a voice for those whose views and situation are understood poorly and heard faintly by the media, politicians and public.” Thanks to people as yourself and to many who visit us, we have become a humble voice of the immigrant community in Finland.
Another important site that speaks out for immigrants and international Finns is My Finland is International. Migrant Tales can be found on that site as well.
The suffering that you have endured in Finland due to racism is unfortunately the story of many immigrants and international Finns. After the election of April 17, it is clear that our society cannot turn any longer a blind eye to this social ill. What to do? Apart from the democratic tools that we have at our disposal, we can lead by example. While we cannot change the world, we can, with our examples, change matters around us.
We hope to hear a lot from you on Migrant Tales!
alien
December 4, 2011
“Hi. im a foreigner living in finland 22 years. i grew up in finland”
“…if i had the chance to move away i would but i dont have no nationality…..”
22 years in a country and not having nationality!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As far as concerns to Finland, this is violation of human rights. But international organisations do not want to see it.
As for you Mr depressed, welcome to the terms of living in finland. As I have said 100 times, immigrants have no right in finland. if you waiting that they admit your right, which a citizenship is the least, then you are far away from realities. If in this 22 years you had studied and have an education which worth some thing, you need no passport. Go through my story. If you are not a man of hard work, and by hard work I mean 2 times more than a Finn, then god help you for living in Finland.
But dont loose hope. Finns want you dead by your own hands. they put you through this that you get to this point. A friend of mine became depressed and eventually killed himself in 2000. Remember my friend the world does not like looser. They dont ask you how you won! They take off their hats for the winner.
So take the life as it is and fight.
Regards
Depressed n Worried immigrant
December 5, 2011
Hi alien. Yes i ve been living in Finland for 22 years soon 23 and still no citizenship. They the police created false accusation when many times ive been defending from myself a racist finns who attacked me. So when the police came and i told them they were the attackers the police arrested me and jailed me and gave me robbery accusation wich were totally false accusation. this happened many times i got in to court for false accusation for manytimes and the judge and authorities never were interested of my stories. I did apply nationality but up to this day ive received negative. Finland practive constatutional racism. Finland succeeds very well the racism it practices and im just buffled how nobody cares or knows how much human right violation is in finland. Im asking you enrique what can it be done for us to have rights?? i allmost born in this country but im treated like a foreigner this country i grew up in is all i know im a finn to tell it honestly but in some odd reason finns do not recognize me as a finn even tho i know the custom adn speak the panguage respectively. Also im so agered that there are not enough foreigners in this forum telling how it is living in finland this has got to stop. Foreingners who live in finland must come out and speak for themselves. it amazes me how silent they’re , they seem to just swallow all crap from racist finns. I go to iltalehti and iltasanomat forums and read what finns write about foreigners it’s deppressing to read the thing they write from us is just despicable. They dont seem to see us humans but a parasite bacterium wich invaded their ideal society.
Enrique
December 5, 2011
Depressed n Worried immigrant, I sent you an email.
Depressed n Worried immigrant
December 6, 2011
Enrique.T I highly appreciate and thank you for your email. You’re trully for what i was looking in this hopeless times in my life living in this hateful country. You gave me kind of hope. I will like to keep in touch with you in the future if somethink happens to me, you never know, becuz i feel so insecure living in finland. The story of mine is not even half of what i told you guys i just touched part of it. My story is very depressing i couldnt put my story in one package or i think my story is too long that it’s hard to post but anyway thanx you enrique…..to be continued………….
Depressed n Worried immigrant
December 6, 2011
Hi enrique. yes im ready to tell my story and yes you can interview me. im so sick and tired living like this i want to tell my story if it aint no one else its going to be me, the world needs to know. We’re human beings just like anyone else and we have rights. I will call you next week so we can do this job done…..peace.
Enrique
December 6, 2011
OK, great, Depressed n Worried Immigrant.
depressed n worries immigrant
December 9, 2011
Tällaista suunnitellaan suomalaisella Suojeluskunta.com -verkkosivustolla:
Näyttävä aloitus 5-10 paikkakunnalla kullakin likvidoidaan joukko neekereitä ja ählämeitä samanaikaisesti. Toistetaan vaatimus muuttaa maasta pois ja annetaan uusi aikaraja, esim. kuukausi.
Toisen aikarajan umpeuduttua toistetaan iskut yhtä-aikaisesti hiukan laajempana ja sen jälkeen alkaa säännölliset tuhoamisiskut. Pyritään aluksi n. 1000 likvidointiin vuosittain, mutta käytännössä sopiva määrä voi olla suurempi tai pienempi. Arvioidaan riittävä volyymi reaaliaikaisesti parin kuukauden välein.
Terroriopas Operaatio ulos! Opas isänmaallisille suomalaisille julkaistiin ensimmäisen kerran palautus.org-sivustolla keväällä 2010. Palautus-sivu on suljettu, mutta marraskuussa terroristinen murhaopas julkaistiin uudelleen avoimesti väkivaltaan yllyttävässä suojeluskunta.com-osoitteessa.
Oppaan tekijäksi on mainittu nimimerkki Väinämöinen. Mukana on 50 nimen lista henkilöistä, ”jotka ovat edistäneet Suomen mädätystä. Osa listalla olijoista voi olla viattomia, joten tarkistakaa heidän toimintansa ja motivaationsa, ennen kuin päätätte heidän kohtalostaan.” Ensimmäinen nimi on tasavallan presidentti Tarja Halonen.
Oppaassa myös esitellään erilaisia aseita sekä niiden hankintakeinoja ja kotivalmistusta.
Sen mukaan Suomessa tarvitaan vähintään 500 murhaa:
Todennäköisesti ei tarvitse suorittaa täyttä 15 000–20 000 likvidointia vuodessa maahanmuutto-ongelman tasapainottamiseksi. Luultavasti riittävä taso on jossain n. 500-1 000 välillä, mikä toivon mukaan johtaisi maahanmuuton vähenemiseen ja jo täällä olevien poistumiseen Ruotsiin tai kotimaihinsa. Jos tahti ei ole riittävä, voidaan likvidointivolyymia lisätä tavoitteen saavuttamiseksi.
Suojeluskunta.com on rajuin suomalainen vihasivusto. Siellä on – mahdollisesti huumorina – julistettu kilpailu parhaasta mamu-vihaa herättävästä novellista. Foorumilla myös hehkutetaan suunnitelmia ”neekerien” tappamiseksi ja vaihdetaan kokemuksia aseista.
Tällaista suunnitellaan suomalaisella Suojeluskunta.com -verkkosivustolla:
Näyttävä aloitus 5-10 paikkakunnalla kullakin likvidoidaan joukko neekereitä ja ählämeitä samanaikaisesti. Toistetaan vaatimus muuttaa maasta pois ja annetaan uusi aikaraja, esim. kuukausi.
Toisen aikarajan umpeuduttua toistetaan iskut yhtä-aikaisesti hiukan laajempana ja sen jälkeen alkaa säännölliset tuhoamisiskut. Pyritään aluksi n. 1000 likvidointiin vuosittain, mutta käytännössä sopiva määrä voi olla suurempi tai pienempi. Arvioidaan riittävä volyymi reaaliaikaisesti parin kuukauden välein.
Terroriopas Operaatio ulos! Opas isänmaallisille suomalaisille julkaistiin ensimmäisen kerran palautus.org-sivustolla keväällä 2010. Palautus-sivu on suljettu, mutta marraskuussa terroristinen murhaopas julkaistiin uudelleen avoimesti väkivaltaan yllyttävässä suojeluskunta.com-osoitteessa.
Oppaan tekijäksi on mainittu nimimerkki Väinämöinen. Mukana on 50 nimen lista henkilöistä, ”jotka ovat edistäneet Suomen mädätystä. Osa listalla olijoista voi olla viattomia, joten tarkistakaa heidän toimintansa ja motivaationsa, ennen kuin päätätte heidän kohtalostaan.” Ensimmäinen nimi on tasavallan presidentti Tarja Halonen.
Oppaassa myös esitellään erilaisia aseita sekä niiden hankintakeinoja ja kotivalmistusta.
Sen mukaan Suomessa tarvitaan vähintään 500 murhaa:
Todennäköisesti ei tarvitse suorittaa täyttä 15 000–20 000 likvidointia vuodessa maahanmuutto-ongelman tasapainottamiseksi. Luultavasti riittävä taso on jossain n. 500-1 000 välillä, mikä toivon mukaan johtaisi maahanmuuton vähenemiseen ja jo täällä olevien poistumiseen Ruotsiin tai kotimaihinsa. Jos tahti ei ole riittävä, voidaan likvidointivolyymia lisätä tavoitteen saavuttamiseksi.
Suojeluskunta.com on rajuin suomalainen vihasivusto. Siellä on – mahdollisesti huumorina – julistettu kilpailu parhaasta mamu-vihaa herättävästä novellista. Foorumilla myös hehkutetaan suunnitelmia ”neekerien” tappamiseksi ja vaihdetaan kokemuksia aseista.
Enrique
December 9, 2011
Hei Depressed n worried immigrant (Finn?), the forum, suojeluskunta.com and others mentioned in your thread, is pretty deranged. Hatred can really make people sick and poison their minds. It wouldn’t be a bad idea to tell the police. I am certain that they monitor these types of forums.
Enrique
December 11, 2011
Even if this video clip is about using the i-word in classifying some immigrants, it is applicable to Finland and Europe.
Thank you @getgln for the heads up!
kurujohn
December 20, 2011
I’d be lying if I said I read every post on this blog, but, what the hell, I’ll weigh in with my bit…there will be breaks in the narative, since I’m at work (on the evening shift, where it’s quieter) and will have to leave the computer now and then.
So I’m an American who has lived here in Finland for 14 years. no citizenship, just permenant work/live status for now. Every year I say this is the year I apply, but the 400€ fee just always seems to discourage me. With the two kids me and my Finnish wife of 16 years have, money is always tight, as you can all well imagine. I’m Caucasian, yes, and I grew up in one of the huge, filthy, multi-cultural 10 million plus population cities in the ole USA, so discrimination of all kinds I was well and truly accustomed to when I moved to Finland. Finland does provide a level of oppurtunity to imigrants who do not speak Finnish that you simply could not find anywhere else in the word, in my opinion; I earned a second bachelors degree here, in English, and am now working on a masters (very slowly), again in english, and now possess a skill that allows me full time employment here in health care ( of course, I need to speak Finnish at work, most always, and my co-workers tolerate my poor grammar because I can do my job well). but, I have to say I also share alot of the fustrations and pain that other immigrants have experienced here, so if I could just advocate for the unhappy immigrant for a moment, comments directed at the attitudes expressed most clearly by the poster who uses the moniker Tiwaz…hey, first of all Tiwaz, who was Tiwaz again, the norse god of what? Mischef, I think?
Tiwaz, it is a unfortunate fact of history that first generation immigrants to a country, whichever country it is, do not ever “assimilate” the way that the natives of said country want them too, or expect them too. It is a foolish and immature notion that Somalians, or Iraquis, or Canadians, or Irishmen, or whoever, are going to suddenly behave like Finns
kurujohn
December 20, 2011
…after they settle here. The Chinese, Irish, German, Polish, Yiddish, Italian, Spanish, whatever, immigrants to the ole USA, the greatest example of immigration the world will ever see, brought their languages, customs, rituals, religions, all of it, to the new land. And most of these first generation immigrants, who came when they were in their 20′s and 30′s, did NOT learn English fluently, if even at all. Their children did, most always, their grandchildren, absolutely, and their great great grandchildren were full blown Americans who often could only speak a few phrases of their ancestors tounge. and there were millions of “native” Americans, i.e. the English speaking European-desended citizens who were already living in the states who DESPISED the idea of these foriengers coming to take over their country and not even learn the language…well, then as now, thats the way it goes. America changed as much if not more than the immigrants did. and america has Budwiser beer, apple pie, hot dogs, hamburgers, Jack Daniels whiskey and doughnuts as a result…
kurujohn
December 20, 2011
…and just like the US, the UK, France, Italy, hell every european or north american country that has had waves of immigrants, both friendly and hostile, roll across and thru, Finland will change…probably more than the Somalis will. and to use an expression I think I remember in your posts, or Alien’s, or whoevers, it is Finland and Finns like you who are going to have to suck it up. Not the Somalis.
It seems to me that immigration in Finland is really a non-issue, Tiwaz. You seem to feel that there are hordes of lazy darkies just slobbering all over themselves to get into Finland, leech off of Finlands social welfare state, of course rape and pilliage whenever possible, and that this refuge immigration should be curbed. I’m sure that you would LOVE for white anglo-saxon protestant educated and skilled immigrants from northern european and north american countries to immigrate (of course, spend a few years in the freezing, impoverished dark while they study the language eight hours a day, just to be denied a job because as you said there are already ten qualified Finns in line ahead of them, but I digress) , but those folks don’t want to imigrate to a sub-arctic country with a six month long winter with a immpenetrable language. So Finland is stuck with the Somalians and the Iraqis (and the Russians, who if I were you, are the ones I’d really be worried about)…and guess what, boss? They didn’t want to come to Finland in the first place. They are fleeing war, slaughter, famine, all those wonderfull things, so anywhere but there, right? But after the UK says no, France says no, Germany says no, Italy says no, Denmark says no, Norway says no, Sweden says no, hell, everywhere with sun in the winter, warm nights in the summer and true multicultral cities and neighborhoods (not a five day multicultral “festival” in the summer, but true immigrant traditions) says NO, Finland says yes. so they “fall off the plane” here, as you put it…and remember, T, Finland needs it’s immigrants as much as those immigrants need a place to sleep where no one is going to hack them to death before dawn. This country’s population is aging, living longer, Finns have kids later in life every gengeration, allowing less time for the kids to pay into the social welfare system before their geezer parents will be draining it, and thats the Finns who CAN concieve in the first place. more and more Finns with those vaunted educations go abroad to work for decades, pay nothing into the Finnish economy or welfare system, then return after 30 years in Spain or America for the free health care they as Finns are entittled to, with your complete belssing, totta kai, because as finns they are entittled to it by birth…
kurujohn
December 20, 2011
…but to get back on track here, Finland is not being forced to accept more refugees every year than it can assimilate. The number of immigrants allowed to reside here and recieve social welfare benifits is carefully calcuated out according to birth rates, death rates, tax revenue, GDP growth or contraction, it is not left to chance or the whims of lefty bleeding hearts. If finland could not afford them, they would not be here. please, don’t try and make it sound like Finland is being bullied by, of all people, refugees from impoverished war torn countries.
and if finland wants a better class of immigrant, let the counrty become more attractive to immigration in the first place. free finnish language classes are great, but nigga pleeze. Finns seem to consider it a badge of honor that their “culture” breeds isolation, embarrasment, and depression as national cultural traits. Several times reading on down the posts I came across finns stating that the so-called racisim that forigeners experienced in public and social occasions ( not being spoken to, ignored, looked at strangely, stared at, treated with fear, etc.) are simply the normal ways that finns deal with all finns…my dear finnish friends, that is simply not true. period. to say that is simply the wishfull thinking of good people trying to level the playing field. Not only isn’t it true, but saying that does more harm than the intended good you’re trying to accomplish, beacuse now I cannot even be rightfully indignant at being treated like a space alien who’s just beamed into the Apteeki instead of a tax-paying member of society; I’m just “overeacting” again…there’s not one immigrant in Finland who won’t tell you thats horseshit. Just like theres no black person in the US who will tell you that racisim does not exist. That white bank teller and white security guard do not treat them the same as the first ten white customers, no matter what they say. It’s the same over here, and it’s racisim. Not lynchings, stonings or a holocoust, but still racisim.
kurujohn
December 21, 2011
I can find no hard statisics, of course, but the common asertation that forigeners are criminals, well, I’d really like to see some referenced, verifiable statisictics on just what the percentage of Finands prision population is Somali, or Iraqi, or Afghani, hell, just foriegn, period. Are there scumbags and criminals among the 2.7% of the population of Finland that is forigen born? (a figure that was retrived from wikipedia, a more or less relaiable source) of course there is, any country has criminals…but I’d wager the overwhelming majority of that 2.7% abides the law, keeps it’s head down and it’s nose clean and gets with the program. I’ve spent close to a decade now working in hospitals and medical centers in a large urban area here, and I can say I have never treated a Somali or Iraqi or Afghani, or Nigerian alcoholic, drug addict, long term unemployed morbidly obsese depressed alcoholic, etc…but I have seen hundreds, hell if not in the thousand something, Finns who fit that bill, all living off of social services and welfare, for decades, with no intention of ever geting a job. again, I have to imagine, a-ok with you, (it would be NICE, of course, if they got a job, but, they have a right, as Finns, to spend 65 years living off tax dollars)…but Finland can only seem to throw up obsticales for the African who wants to get a job here, then tell them that it’s their fault if they feel isolated and discriinated against, hell, they just have to suck it up and get back to Finnish language class so they can learn the next 27 different ways to ask “Whose is this?”, since knowing only 15 out of the 56 different possible ways is going to embarrass and make their potential Finnish co-workers feel uncomfortable, heaven forbid.
Enrique
December 21, 2011
Hi kurujohn and welcome to Migrant Tales. You make some very interesting points about being an immigrant in Finland as well as what types of immigrants are attracted here. Isn’t it odd that we’ve been speaking for a few years about the need for labor immigration? It sounds like some people in this country that there is a mad rush of people waiting to move here when, in fact, there aren’t. High taxation, language, weather and now the image of being an unfriendly country for immigrants are factors that discourage people from coming here.
One of the matters that I was amazed by in Finland was its comprehensive welfare state. The whole idea that a society is built on the state helping others sounded for me quite revolutionary when compared with dog-eat-dog Southern California. What will be the future of this good system is a huge question facing this society. As you know, some people believe it has been streamlined considerably especially after the recession of the early 1990s.
It is sad that so many able bodies and minds that get a degree here are forced to move elsewhere in order to get a job.
What are the greatest challenges to Finland taking into account as well its aging population? Attracting new people, accepting them as equals, financing its comprehensive welfare state, greed and populist nationalism.
We hope to hear more about your views on life in Finland.
Tiwaz
December 21, 2011
Ah yes, the stupid gather again…
Let’s start to shoot down the stupidities one by one. kurujohn, let’s start with you. 14 years and you still have not managed to get fluent in Finnish. You are prime example of lazy immigrant here. 14 years and you should be fluent no matter what. Don’t tell you can’t, because forum I frequent has plenty of people who have achieved that. They simply were not lazy and chose to be motivated to learn.
Nobody expects first generation immigrants to become Finns, but first generation immigrants can and MUST adjust to society they move into. They have to learn the language and culture to be able to interact with existing society properly.
People like you have weird attitude that it is Finns who have to change to fit you.
Also, your idea of comparing Finland and USA is idiotic. My inlaws have unbroken chain of existence on single plot of land, farming it, which well outdates YOUR ENTIRE COUNTRY.
Finland, which has always been bit of a backwater in terms of trends, has plenty of countryside churches etc which outdate ever first white man in your entire bloody continent!
USA was huge, mostly empty space which was emptier still by slaughtering the native population when they were problematic. Finland is not. Apples, oranges.
Not to mention that your first generation “no speak”-immigrants were horribly abused by their countrymen who DID speak local language.
If you do not ASAP learn language used in country you move into, you are doomed to be essentially slave or lowest grade manual laborer. In heyday of US immigration, that was fate of all your spaniards, italians etc who did not have relative who knew the language.
Same is seen in Finland, when some chinese people brought in their countryment to work in their restaurant. Abusing them in every possible way, overtime without pay, way underpaid…
THAT is face of language challenged immigrant. Every bloody immigrant should be on their knees thanking Finns that cases like these chinese are extremely rare. Compared to “wonderful” USA of days of mass immigration you are speaking so fondly of.
USA and Finland, apple and orange so do not try to use them as examples for one another.
As for immigrants and their need. THERE IS NO LABOR SHORTAGE IN FINLAND!
Unemployment is well past healthy. And even if there was labor shortage, it is not filled by Somali who can’t read, write or have any useful skills.
Reality is that Finland does not have labor shortage and never will. People work later and then drop dead without single day on pension. That is reality, because uneducated somalis cannot fulfill the empty spot left by educated Finn. I actually rather have russians move in, they are educated and quite many have figured out need to learn language. One of my distant relatives was married to one for ages, until she died. Number of russian born entrepreneurs is up.
Their value to Finland is positive, because they contribute to the country.
Alien, which you have apparently quoted on Finns being forced to suck it up but not somalis, is an idiot.
Those suck it up who have no other options. Finns have options. We are around 95% of population of this country.
Immigrants, specially groups who whine most vocally, are tiny irrelevant minority. They do not have demographic or economical importance at all. THEY have to learn to suck it up and fast if they ever want any relevance. Russians have figured it out. They are adjusting, starting businesses. They are starting to MATTER. Only thing lots of these whining immigrant groups contribute notably to are crime statistics.
Those are, or at least were, available for public with perpetrators listed by nationality at old stat.fi. No idea how to dig the same data out from new one, perhaps information is hidden because it is not politically correct and proves failure known as multiculturalism.
Regarding this “racism” everyone claims immigrants being victims of. It still has not been proven by the way. When you ask immigrant who has, out of laziness for example, not bothered to learn cultural norms of host society of course they scream that there is lots of racism! Because they interpret others acting in ways which are not in line with their own cultural norms as racism, while natives are simply acting in a way they would act else.
Most racism is lack of cultural understanding of immigrants and excessively thin skin. Staring at you? Maybe, or maybe you are just interpreting it so because you think you are center of the world.
Reality is that most problems immigrant population face are caused by themselves. Failure to learn language and culture foremost.
People like to use somali population as “proof” of racism, and how they are poorly managing in Finland. Well, dig out statistics for UK, France and rest and you notice that somali population of those countries is performing just as bad as one in Finland!
If something is wrong, it is in this case not wrong in host country or else they would do well elsewhere. But they do not.
Regarding this immigration wave thing. You are right kuru. Spain, France and UK have suffered it. And yes, suffered. Those waves brought in more bad than good. Finland is fortunately again still behind the trend so we can learn from mistakes of others and deny such wave entering Finland. In long term, it will be best way to lure in the desirable immigrants. Finland has million dollar spot to benefit from “White flight” spreading elsewhere.
kurujohn
December 24, 2011
hey tiwaz, easy there tiger…
me lazy? T, you wound me. A finnish wife of sixteen years, raising kids, a country farmhouse I renovated and maintain, pursuing my old career while starting a new one, in a new country and culture, four years of full time school, a farm full of animals…lazy? Negro, you have a odd definition of lazy. What you do have is a wild hair up your rectum about the Finnish language. Not everyone excells at everything they ever try to do, son. Taking violing lessons and not becoming a concert violinist does not make you lazy; If everyone could just decide they are going to excell at anything they try, well, there wouldn’t be sucesss stories, cause everyone would be World Cup stars, Olympic gold medalists and multi-millionaire performers. Not trying at all is being lazy; and for every immigrant in Finland who struggles to learn the language, there are dozens of finns who ARE lazy, obese, boozing duds who just don’t give a fuck. so you know people who studied and became fluent; good for them and you. I’m very proud of them. Me, I just get by enough to do my job and keep the paychecks coming in. So it goes.
and you continue to hammer the drum of “adjusting to the new society” and the “cultural norms”. Tiwaz, I cannot help but feel you are simply offended by Somalis dressing, smelling, sounding and acting like Somalis on the bus, on the train, in the street, in the restaurant…in other words, you DO expect them to pay homage and respect to Finland by looking, sounding, acting and behaving LIKE FINNS. You say no one expects first generation immigrants to “become finns”, but you want them to behave like finns. or you are offended. So there have been cases of Somalis slaughtering cows and mules in their Helsinki apartments, and not buying their meats from the supermarket? I haven’t heard about it…what are these cases of immigrants NOT adjusting to the norms of Finnish society that you are talking about? Oh yeah, mispronouncing their dipthongs and genitive verbs…really offends you, what with your families 300 some odd year history of farming the same plot of mud in Nukkujärvi…which has no bearing on the issue of immigration in the 21st century that I can see.
I did not compare the US to Finland, or suggest that the solution for European immigration in 2011 can be found in the USA of 1830. Nor did I speak fondly of the 19th century in america. Nor did I say that Finland has to change for it’s immigrants. I know you anything but lazy, so re-read what I wrote, SLOWLY this time.
Ckiddo
December 26, 2011
Tiwaz rhetoric is racist – his last paragraph is clear. Immigrants to Finland are OK if they are white, and non-whites are uneducated and lazy. You and your ilk should be honest – if you don’t want non-whites in your country because of their skin colour, then just say it clearly and explicitly, rather than give excuses. Because you are an idiot if you think all or most non-whites are incapable of contributing positively to a society.
First of all, countries like Britain, Canada and the US have benefited from immigration. The most educated and highest-earning ethnic minority in the US are Indians (from India), going beyond japanese and jews:
http://www.forbes.com/2009/02/24/bobby-jindal-indian-americans-opinions-contributors_immigrants_minority.html
Second, as much as I respect Finland for its achievements (high-level of education and low-levels of corruption), I have no idea why anyone – white or non-white- would want to immigrate there. Terrible food and horrid weather, and Finnish is not an Indo-European language and has very little expression in the World, so learning the language has very little redeeming value.
I do not wish to disparage a country like Finland, but Tiwaz silly and provincial nacionalism is amusing to say the least.
kurujohn
January 1, 2012
well, Ckiddo, Finnish food isn’t all that horrible. Due to Finlands geographical situation and it’s climate, “traditional” Finnish food is (or rather was, for a couple of centuries) limited in ingredients and seasonings…it’s mostly typical domestic meats, dairy and root vegitables, as bell peppers, tomatoes and passion fruits simply could not be grown in sub-arctic tundra before the mid 20th century. And preparation was simple as well; you killed it, washed it, baked it or boiled it. six months of winter meant a short growing and harvesting season; no time for coissants or tomato-zucchini fritters. And cold and dark the winters may be, but the weather is also very beautiful, and unique in the world. Finland has four distinct seasons, with long autums and a summer that is really more like an extended spring with a couple of hot days; where I’m from, spring lasts three days, into a sweltering broil; then three days of fall, torrential downpours and a deep freeze. Maybe living in the countryside, you see it more.
of the two large classes of immigrants that come to finland (the first being desperate refugees) I belong to the other group…mostly men, but there are some ladies as well, who meet and fall in love with a finn outside of finland and start a family. The clean air and water, realtively crime free cities, no drugs, best schools, cradle to grave univeral healthcare and free higher education, and public assitance make it an attractive place to “start” a family…
Enrique
January 2, 2012
Hei Abdi y hyvää uutta vuotta. Voisitko soittaa minulle tänään? Kiitoksia.
alien
January 5, 2012
Hi every one. Tiwaz has some notes in which mentioned me again. I first did not want to answer that because I am not offended by him. I really dont feel any hate, but rather makes me laugh. but there was some point in his note which I guess is not true. Here it is;
“Alien, which you have apparently quoted …….is an idiot.
Those suck it up who have no other options. Finns have options. We are around 95% of population of this country.
Immigrants, specially groups who whine most vocally, are tiny irrelevant minority. They do not have demographic or economical importance at all. THEY have to learn to suck it up and fast if they ever want any relevance. Russians have figured it out. They are adjusting, starting businesses. They are starting to MATTER. Only thing lots of these whining immigrant groups contribute notably to are crime statistics.”
Tiwaz, your sympathy toward Russian, more than showing a gesture of being fair and sensitive, to me is a matter of historical reasons. We all know that not long time ago, the Russian, then soviet Union, were quite careful to wash their ass every morning, because theirs were about to be kissed by Finnish politician. this habit found its way toward ordinary people like you and since you are great in copy pasting, did a great job in wiping the Russian asses, the best you could. I am sure that good Russian like any other good immigrants, deserve to be appreciated for their good job that they are doing. But considering your old habit of kissing asses, it is hard to believe that you are realizing the importance of a group of immigrants.
Now if I this is true, which it is (because you said your self that it is a matter of option), I guess you are blowing hard for Russians. No matter how much is your population. This can be the greatest number of blow jobs in history. It should be recorded in the book of Guineas.
Good job, you are free to swallow. Go ahead. Go, Go, Go!
Enrique
January 5, 2012
Alien, it is interesting to note how though time Tiwaz’ arguments have shut themselves off. It shows as well how this blog has empowered us and given us the opportunity to state our valid case. Before that it was mostly Tiwaz’ world: There is no racism, you are inferior because I set the expectation benchmarks to your integration. Shut up and work harder.
This type of thinking, however, has lost a lot of ground.
Reading the arguments of those threads posted in 2008 and 2011-12 would be showing two different Finlands.
Tiwaz
January 5, 2012
Enrique: “Alien, it is interesting to note how though time Tiwaz’ arguments have shut themselves off.”
It is called being busy. I have life to life, family to raise and several million lazy South Europeans to bail out of their self made debt mess.
Reality is that one tends to grow bored of beating your racist attitude against Finns back with facts, just to have you spew them out again and again. This blog is just immigrant version of stormfront. Nothing more, nothing less. All it does is “empower” whiners to think that their victim-attitude means they are real victims.
In case you have missed it, Enrique, other immigrants who ARE successful in Finland mainly find you embarrassing and annoying. That should tell you much. Your preferred “contributers” are bunch of other whiners who think Finns have to bend over to appease them.
I recommend you taking off your rose tinted glasses and looking out at the world again. Because multiculturalism is coming to end of it’s road. All over Europe, people are increasingly fed up with immigrants refusing to do their part and demanding natives to change to fit them. End is nigh, and it is up to immigrants if it will be nice and peaceful passing, or if there will be pain.
Alien:
You again show you know nothing of Finnish and Russian relationship. While politicians were forced to be bent over for Soviets due to geographical reasons, Finns as people never have been. More than anything, it has been feeling of distrust, dislike and even hatred that is given to Russia and Russians as whole.
Tiwaz
January 5, 2012
Tiwaz rhetoric is racist – his last paragraph is clear. Immigrants to Finland are OK if they are white, and non-whites are uneducated and lazy. You and your ilk should be honest – if you don’t want non-whites in your country because of their skin colour, then just say it clearly and explicitly, rather than give excuses. Because you are an idiot if you think all or most non-whites are incapable of contributing positively to a society.
Ckiddo, again pulling out the racist card when you have no valid argument… What an idiot you are.
I stated clearly my requirements for immigrant. To adjust to society as it is and contribute POSITIVELY. I have in past worked with people from Russia, Sweden, Bangladesh and whatnot. They were people I am happy to have in Finland. Guess why… They respected Finnish culture and Finnish language in Finland, by adjusting to Finland as it is. Not to mention that they were professionals with useful skills!
I have repeatedly said I do not give crap about colour of skin. You can be white, red, blue or green with pink polka dots. Don’t cause trouble, accept Finland as it is and adjust. And be positive contributer. That’s it.
“Second, as much as I respect Finland for its achievements (high-level of education and low-levels of corruption), I have no idea why anyone – white or non-white- would want to immigrate there. Terrible food and horrid weather, and Finnish is not an Indo-European language and has very little expression in the World, so learning the language has very little redeeming value.”
Finnish language is one spoken by vast majority of people in Finland, meaning learning it has massive redeeming value. If you do not want to learn Finnish, don’t come to Finland. If you come to Finland, you have to learn Finnish.
Finland does not need you. You can happily just fuck off and leave us in peace. Except you and whole lot of you desperately want to have your piece of communal pie.
You want that high-level education, low-level corruption, functional, stable and safe society.
But you are not willing to accept that it means YOU have to change your way of thinking and acting. Because ALL those things are achieved only because society is Finnish through and through. If we start to imitate Greeks for example in name of multiculturalism, we soon have low education, high corruption and our country is bankrupt.
In decade or two, Finland will be the most desired spot to move into by highly educated professionals if we keep multiculturalism away from our doorstep. Because signs of societies trying to implement multiculti collapsing on it’s simple impossibility are plain to see for everyone!
Hannu
February 17, 2012
Now enrique make new posts and make noise!
One was victim of racist and facist attack! Atleast four attacked to one and stabbed him! Tried to kill poor man!
Hannu
February 20, 2012
What you enrique are doing against this terrible racism!
Migrant Tales
February 20, 2012
Hannu, nice video clip. I even saw myself in it.
Hannu
February 22, 2012
Enrique, im apalled! That painted picture where finns arent even humans! And told that were primitive ones who need to be civilized!
Thats what you should say according your writings, or are you thinking we arent have worth like mexicans you “protected”?
I think it was hilarious and i shared it but thats not point, now condemn that vile video what makes stereotypes!