Why don’t you stop making absolute statements? In first place, this is OUR country NOT yours. The only thing you own is your home and a vote.

–How about referring to scientists who have shot your rubbish down before in thread “Foreigners in Finland”.

Please enlighten me and tell me who these scientists are.

–Divisions are never good for society. Regimes like Nazi Germany were possible precisely BECAUSE of divisions.

Here is a sentence that really worries me. You blame the Jews for causing divisions because they were part of a sick regime. That is pretty incredible. Maybe that is why Finnish history still has not resolved what our role was in the Continuation War. By the way, take a look at Robert Ley’s testament. As you know, he was one of the big chiefs of the Nazi regime. He writes in jail about two months before he hangs himself in October 1945: “Looking back upon all this today I know I could recount dozens of examples how paralyzing and actually disastrously these two factors influenced us. Consequently our aspect was wrong, we misjudged situations and missed opportunities that could have become our destiny. The anti-semitic spectacles upon the nose of defiant and bold men was a disaster. This must for once be courageously admitted.”

–Actually I am closer to 30 than 50.

Then there is still hope.

Who are you to tell me what should be acceptable in MY native land?
If you cannot handle to live in Finnish culture according to it’s rules. Moving is good idea. Because I do not want to destroy my identity and culture to appease you, and you do not want to live in my culture. So how about finding a culture where you WANT to live and leaving us who are happy with Finnish culture to live in it?

-It is not a question of idealism because you believe people from different cultures can live in harmony. The reason why we have had horrid regimes like the ones in Nazi Germany is not only that such people have narrow and exclusive views about themselves, they incorrectly believe they can impose their ways by violence. In order to avoid something like that happening ever again, we have to learn to accept

How about referring to scientists who have shot your rubbish down before in thread “Foreigners in Finland”.

Divisions are never good for society. Regimes like Nazi Germany were possible precisely BECAUSE of divisions. You still fail to explain how Hitler could have done what he did if there was no cultural division between Germans and Jews. Because you know there would be no way.

History proves that societies without large divisions in them (culturally, ethnically, religiously or ideologically) are not ones that turn against themselves.

Divided societies do. Rwanda, Yugoslavia, Somalia, Basques, Kurds, Iraq, N.Ireland… List goes on. Division = conflict.

Actually I am closer to 30 than 50. Well educated Finn who enjoys travelling and learning of foreign cultures. My views are only tainted with understanding and realism.

Your views are the tainted ones, because they are not founded in reality.

Again, your gatekeeper arrogance gets the best of you. Who are you to tell me or anyone else where to go? That sounds like the words of an enraged man filled with fear.

It is not a question of idealism because you believe people from different cultures can live in harmony. The reason why we have had horrid regimes like the ones in Nazi Germany is not only that such people have narrow and exclusive views about themselves, they incorrectly believe they can impose their ways by violence. In order to avoid something like that happening ever again, we have to learn to accept — not destroy — diversity.

I am proud of who I am and what you think about my views or my background has no meaning. I decide what my values are, where I live, move and travel.

Your position on these matters show that you are probably over fifty and grew up when Finland was, unfortunately, geopolitically and culturally near-isolated from the world. Your views on Finnish culture and outsiders are sadly tainted by that.

Great. So go elsewhere.
I have travelled too. Seen a lot. Rather enjoyed the different cultures too. But I would NEVER think that I have right to go to another country and whine about their culture and demand them to follow MY cultural norms or whine that natives are racist when they give their perfectly normal cultural response to my misbehavior, if there is any.

-If you resent my ideas, then you resent everything that is beautiful in this world: cultural diversity and people living together in respect. Is that too much to ask?

Sounds so pretty… Tell me then, why I can from top of my head come up with at least half a dozen cases where this “diversity” is exactly nothing like respect? How history teaches that attempting to forge such diversity riddled society is source of suffering and murder?

Stop living with your head in the clouds and live in REAL world. Here cultures do not get along. More differences the cultures have, more likely they are to come at odds violently.

That is why it is imperative for immigrant to adjust their way to act to LOCAL cultural standard, not expect that they can keep living as if they had never left their home.
THAT is why muslims are overrepresented in rape statistics. Many of them do not do that adjustment, they just see women who are, according to their cultural context, dressed in way which makes the women to be blamed for ending up raped. They do not respect FINNISH culture, or western in general, which says that woman have every right to dress as they please.

Do you grasp that your multicultural “heavens” are pisspoor, pathetically underdeveloped and riddled with crime compared to Finland? Why would I want to import such failure of society into Finland, instead of telling those who think living in Finland is better than living elsewhere to get used to FINNISH way to do things?

Multiculturalism can to some limit work if there is no difference between cultures. That is why Canada was such happyhappyland for long time. Less cultural differences to cause major rifts. When they started to receive more and more people from totally different cultural background, problems started to appear. Those people were told they did not have to adjust to Canadian society. So instead they imported their own society with them, and conflict resulted.

Failures of multicultural society are warning sign. But you refuse to see them.

Now, how about you explaining why muslims are overrepresented in rape statistics in western world if all cultures live happily together always and forever?

Are you implying they are genetically inferior or faulty?

Problem with you, Enrique, is that you are blinded by your idealism. You see the, admittably noble, ideal of multiculturalism. But you fail to understand that your dream and real world are different things. In real world we have to deal with realities and their limitations. I have dream of bridge built with feathers. Beautiful, stunning dream. But it is not practical. Real world comes in and crushes this dream by facts. Try studying facts of cultural conflict and then think why it is that multicultural societies fail to prosper like ones where there is one culture which defines what goes and what does not.

Because multicultural ones spend most of their energy and resources fighting one another. Because cultures are not by and large able to live happily as equals inside same borders. One must dominate, or else every culture fights to dominate that place. And if dominant culture is weakened of denied the ability to maintain stability, we have same result.

This failure to tell immigrants that how they did things back at home or how things were there does not mean things are same in Finland is big mistake. Equally big is telling that they should not do things like Finnish culture has them done. Because that leads to conflict. That leads to overblown representation of certain immigrant groups in rape statistics.

Immigrants never will become truly Finns, for most part. But they must learn to act according to Finnish cultural norms while in Finland and in public. And if they fail to do it, not whine that Finns are racist because immigrant was one who failed to present themselves properly.

This is most obvious in immigrant employment. Those who figure out that walking to job interview the same way they would at their country of origin might not be right way to do it in Finland… Might figure out that they should learn how this process is done in Finland. And raise their chances of getting job. Idiots do not think of that, end up unemployed because they would not fit the work community and then whine about racism.

Same with language. Smart ones understand that while Finns overall speak English well, large portions do not. And much of rest do not feel comfortable speaking English so they do not want to put themselves in such situation. Which means that person without Finnish skills is effectively unemployed. Stupid ones whine about racism, smart ones put their mind to learning instead of wasting time.

You are too narrow-minded and exclusive in your perceptions of society. That is your right to think that way. However, I have traveled the world and lived in many countries and enjoy that type of diversity. For me, it is the normalest thing in the world. I can go to a small Finnish village and savor its culture in the same way as being in a huge city. That is what multiculturalism, or living among many cultures has taught me.

If you resent my ideas, then you resent everything that is beautiful in this world: cultural diversity and people living together in respect. Is that too much to ask?

Tell me, how is it antiquated that those who can survive, survive. And those who are not capable of handling adverse situation… Die away.

It is not antiquated. It is reality. Adapt or die is natural law, which human cannot avoid. We have learned new ways to adapt, but we still must adapt to survive.
This is true for societies as well. Those which are torn apart by internal division will not survive. They are weak.

You, have repeatedly failed to present anything to support your claim of multicultural excellence. Your examples of attempts for multiculturalism are nations which I would not use as an example except if I wanted to know how NOT to create a nation and society.

I am more likely more educated than you. I just do not beat around the bush. I take truth as it is revealed by evidence and facts. I do not sugarcoat it or try to make you feel better about your delusion.

Go on. I challenge you to show some evidence to support your multiculturalism.

I have given you this challenge before, and you avoided meeting it.

You may start by coming up with explanation on why muslims are overrepresented in rape statistics in western world and why it is not because their cultural ways are incompatible with western world.

Your very attitude insults me and my grandfathers who fought to keep this country free and Finnish. Now you expect us to lay down that which has been purchased with blood and turn over our country to foreigners without asking them to respect Finnish values, Finnish tradition and Finnish culture. Instead demanding us, natives to appease their foreign values, foreign tradition and foreign culture.

And you act surprised that Finns resent you and your ideas to the core…

I´ll just let the people read your comments and allow them to decide who is who. You see, I do not go around using “f” or “a” words to describe your repulsive ideas. Because I believe in democracy, I even think people with antiquated ideas drenched in social Darwinism/historical evolutionism should have an opportunity to bring them forth.

I think the problem derives from education. Nobody every taught you better. What right do you have to go insulting people and force them on top of this to adapt to your narrow view as if you were some
tin-pot dictator? I think you have crossed the line and are now obnoxious.

You can insult me with your “intelligence” but do not call me names.

Native. I respect culture of foreign country when I go there. I try to act according to their norms where possible, or avoid violating them.

It is being polite and respectful.

I do not do what you do, go to other countries, bitch and whine and tell them how they should live. That is not polite, it is acting like an a****.

-I think your arguments are ridiculous and naive. Humankind has always mixed genetically with others. We are all part of a world united by different cultures and people. Even if this may shock you, your/our ancestors were once a bunch of monkey-looking bipedal primates roaming in Africa. Thanks to their reproduction and their survival techniques, they evolved into you. Or are you still claiming that they were Finns when they climbed down the trees?

And humans have always formed groups which are tied together to succeed against other humans. And Finns have never lived anywhere but in Finland. I guess you do not grasp that there were no Finns prior to Finland.

And we are speaking of culture. People have cultural identity, it defines what they consider appropriate and what not. It has nothing to do with genetics.

It defines us. And cultural conflict is real. Different cultures come with different values. If these values collide, we have conflict. And cultures rarely have same values, else they would not be different cultures.

You, sir, are an i**** who cannot tell apart culture, race and genetics.

Your attitude speaks a thousand words. Who are you to impose your model on others and, on top of it to insult people. Wow, I commend your “integration” skills. I am happy that others can see them so they know that part of this society comprises of myopic ideas such as yours.

–It proves multicultural societies are failures, they cannot compete with monocultural societies because they lack the unity to push forward.

I think your arguments are ridiculous and naive. Humankind has always mixed genetically with others. We are all part of a world united by different cultures and people. Even if this may shock you, your/our ancestors were once a bunch of monkey-looking bipedal primates roaming in Africa. Thanks to their reproduction and their survival techniques, they evolved into you. Or are you still claiming that they were Finns when they climbed down the trees?

–Problem is, you haven’t got a fu**** clue of what that really is and causes!

Hey, build a time machine and go back to the “good old days” of 1933-45. I am sure your “racial” ideas will find a perfect home.

Result is same, multicultrual societies die out because they cannot survive in long term. Show me multicultural society which has existed for longer than 500 years… You won’t find one!

Either they are not multicultural, meaning one culture dominates and determines the acceptable course of action and thus it is not multicultural. Or they died out in civil wars!

Only idiot believes in multiculturalism.

-I´m saddened that a man can have such a narrow and frightful view of other cultures. You can´t imagine how much of life´s beauty you are missing because of your narrow-mindedness. It is your loss not anyone else´s.

My loss is if you and your kind manage to have your way and destroy this country. I do not fear other cultures. They are free to do as they please in their own home. When you come to Finland, I expect you to accept that here things are done according to Finnish culture. Either accept it, or f*** off.

Respecting natives and their culture must come first.
But then again, you are descendant of those who slaughtered natives and their culture to take their land. Some person you are to talk about me being nazi.

-This is a myth. There is no such thing as monocultural. Only cultures that have subjected and destroyed others.

And here you are, wanting to destroy my culture. You expect me to roll over and die like native people of Argentina? Sorry, I’ll fight back!

-Since you do not condemn what happened under Nazi Germany but blame it on the Jews for not “being Germans,” see what happened when a bunch of loonies tried to prove they were the superior race? That´s far worse than a military dictatorship in a country like Argentina.

Where do I say I do not condemn it? I condemn it, but also point out that without division in society it would have been impossible to take place! Something your limited grasp clearly is unable to handle.

-I´m not avoiding anything. I don´t look for simpleton answers to complex questions.

Actually, you are the simpleton from us. Now, go ahead and show me why muslims are overrepresented in rape statistics in western world if there is nothing wrong with their culture… Go on!

Or do you try to deny that there is problem? Close your eyes and try to pretend that it does not take place? How very intelligent of you.

-So? Big deal. What does that prove? Multicultural societies are stupider than those that are not?

It proves multicultural societies are failures, they cannot compete with monocultural societies because they lack the unity to push forward. Instead spending their time bickering and fighting one another. With occasional civil war, military junta or general slaughter.

-Your argument is flawed. Despite the horrors of the military regime, it does not mean that Argentina had such a government because it was multicultural. There are bigger powers that wield their interests on other countries. It´s a bit like the USSR did with Finland after the war.

Read history. Finland chose it’s own leaders, and we never had military junta.
You guys had it because your society was so fractured that it was possible for military to take over. Because your society is built on failure called multiculturalism.

-OK, so in your worldview all Muslims are a bunch of rapists.

I have proof on my side. Muslims in western world are overrepresented in rape statistics. Thus, muslims when introduced to western culture have higher tendency to rape than natives of these cultures. It is called cultural conflict. Something you try to pretend does not exist.

-Antiquated. Passé.

Reality. You try to pretend you are so progressive and liberal. But in reality you are just sad little fool who thinks he is cool when he speaks of multiculturalism as good thing. Problem is, you haven’t got a fu**** clue of what that really is and causes! You just preach how multiculturalism is good, and try to close your eyes to reality when it kicks your worldview to pieces every day.