The government of Prime Minister Matti Vanhanen and the Finns suffered their first major setback in February when minimum retirement ages would be raised from 63 to 65 years in order to keep the number of Finns employed in the labor market from not dropping to 66% by 2013 from 70% now.
Apart from raising eyebrows among Finland’s labor unions and getting the thumbs down from the population in general as a YLE poll shows, the real culprit has been hidden from public view by the ruling parties, even by the mainstream media. Raising the retirement age is nothing more than the failure of present and former governments to tackle effectively the decline of the country’s economically active population with the help of foreign workers.
The issue appears to be such a hot potato for the government and the media that they have preferred opportunistically to vacillate on the issue.
According to some not-so-public official estimates, Finland needs about 100,000 foreign laborers every year in order to keep the age pyramid from mushrooming upwards.
Even so, the million-euro question is where will Finland get new workers and from where? Another factor that has retarded debate and fueled past and the present government inaction on this front is a total lack of leadership. This is understandable, however. Politicians too are intimidated by the backlash they would suffer if they openly promoted foreign labor to the country. Their job has been made even harder taking into account that Finland’s economy is cooling and unemployment is rising.
This is unfortunate taking into account that reticent attitudes towards employing non-Finnish nationals is already hurting our economy. The next jab we will feel is to our standard of living if we do not address this challenge promptly.
The jury is still out whether Finland can or has the political will to plug this ever-growing labor problem.
March 5, 2009 at 5:18 pm
Ah, but the problem is that to make money you need money. Or to make workers, you need to train the workers. You cannot pick up someone from the street and say: “go be a doctor”. It requires years of training and practice. Even if you have a ready doctor, you can’t pick them up from the street, as you also need training and practice to pass the requirements.
What the government has been doing is “saving money”. So there are no resources to say give language classes to young immigrants in their late teens, so they can’t get into further training and become those doctors, a recent survey said many don’t even finish vocational school. So these aren’t and won’t be those “needed” workers. Because the money was missing where it was needed. Too late to whine now as the money should have been there 10 years ago. And with this recession and no jobs and more people needing the money for their pressing needs – there will be even less money to put where it would be needed to train those elusive workers.
March 6, 2009 at 9:54 am
I understand, but you can train him rapidly to be a taxi driver and to do menial jobs that need to be done.
It is never too late to change a situation. My point was that Finland is still in the dark about what kind of immigration policy it wants to implement. It knows that it needs lots of foreign workers but appears not to have the political nor civic courage to say: Stop all these petty arguments and lets tackle the issue. When Finland is 200 years old, I think they will look back at this period and say how small-minded people were.
March 6, 2009 at 12:37 pm
So in other words – make foreigners into an underclass? I think small-minded societies still have that, Finland has strived to *not* have an ethnic underprivileged underclass, so why should we go back into the dark ages? The direction is supposed to be forwards, not backwards.
March 6, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Thats mainly again because of money. There has formed a growing class of civil servants and enterprises that feed on the “multiculturalism” of immigrants, so it is in their interests that we get only immigrants that depend on their “services” instead of integrating. Meanwhile the big business depends on unintegrated immigrants who don’t know their rights and can be exploited as a cheap labor foce. Its a win-win situation for both, so it is in their interests the government has no clear policy.
March 6, 2009 at 12:53 pm
What about the Roma? And what is wrong with being a taxi driver? It sure beats being on the dole. We have underprivileged classes in Finland.
We also have people who live below the poverty line, even though Finland has no official figure on how much a person can make monthly to be defined as poor.
March 6, 2009 at 1:16 pm
So what do you suggest: A clamp down on how money is being wasted in the integration program? I don’t buy all you say but I would like to hear your opinions on how you would bolster efficiency and make the integration program more effective. The real integrator are JOBS, JOBS and JOBS. As I told you, countries that have a lot of immigrants also have services and companies run by different nationalities. My father went to work for Air France so he was able to adapt his cultural skills (he was fluent in French) and progress in the United States.
Everything does not have to be a Finnish solution. It can be somewhere in the middle where both sides benefit just like my father did. The first time he worked for a USAmerican company was about 20 years after he had worked for various foreign airlines.
March 6, 2009 at 1:20 pm
What about the Roma? Go to Romania or some other EU country and make a comparison. The Finnish Roma have advanced in leaps and bounds.
A taxi driver does happen to be a regulated profession that isn’t easy to get into as it requires the language and a test. It is not a “first job” as in some other countries.
Yes we do have underprivileged classes and poor people, but why do we need to import more? Just because you want to feel better than someone else?
March 7, 2009 at 10:15 pm
Well as there ARE NO JOBS, there is no need for more and more immigrants needing integration programmes is there? So rather hire the one or two guys needed and forget the “need” for uneducated masses, as the money needs to be spent on the people already here.
March 9, 2009 at 6:20 am
-”My father went to work for Air France so he was able to adapt his cultural skills (he was fluent in French) and progress in the United States.”
Maybe because there are no Air France jobs available in Finland.
Biggest issue for immigrants is that great many are too stupid/lazy/arrogant to put hour upon hour of work to one thing…
Learning Finnish language and Finnish culture.
Two essentials in working in just about EVERY job. More menial the job, more likely your colleagues and direct employers are to be Finnish-only.
As you climb the ladder, you still need Finnish. Anything where you come in contact with ANY customer requires fluent Finnish. Because customers WILL NOT start to appease your foreign ass by switching to language they are not comfortable with.
So immigrant with no Finnish skills in language = useless.
Immigrant who has no Finnish cultural skills = useless, because they do not know what is polite and what is not.
This is not France with so many millions of people that even crap workers can sell enough junk to make themselves worth it.
There simply are not so many hubbabubbans present to make employee only speaking hubbabubba worth the cost they cause to employer.
March 9, 2009 at 7:38 am
I think your argument is pretty much on thin ice. There are jobs that need to be filled. And, as I have written before, it is very difficult to teach a former paper mill employee to become a nurse at 45 years. It is a fact that lots of people will be retiring in the next few years and this will create labor shortages. The recession may slow the need but it will never do away with it. There is a basic difference between your way of thinking and mine. For me, culturally diversity is normal whereas for you it is a threat that should be halted at all costs, even it means less economic growth. If you consider yourself a conservative, then you should embrace competition in all sectors. Having state-owned monopolies and private sector oligopolies are another breed of right- and left-wing political thought.
March 9, 2009 at 7:45 am
–Biggest issue for immigrants is that great many are too stupid/lazy/arrogant to put hour upon hour of work to one thing…
What do you mean by “many.” Is that a majority of a majority within a minority? What is a “crap worker?” Here you talk about the rights of
indigenous groups but then throw crap at people by belittling what they do. The PS and other groups in that same category not only represent marginalized people from our society, but people who see things in a very black-and-white populist way. What you are saying is nothing unique. People who feel estranged from society and their political system say what you say in many different languages. It is good to kick and bitch but then another thing to actually manage the situation. If the PS and other groups in that same vein would be in power, it would spell economic ruin for Finland.
March 9, 2009 at 9:44 am
-”I think your argument is pretty much on thin ice. There are jobs that need to be filled. And, as I have written before, it is very difficult to teach a former paper mill employee to become a nurse at 45 years.”
SO JOB REQUIRES SKILLS FROM APPLICANT, SKILLS WHICH IMMIGRANT DOES NOT HAVE!
Way over 90% of jobs in Finland require FINNISH!
It is essential part of communication!
No skills in that, you are useless as employee.
You are just as useless as that former paper mill employee.
-”It is a fact that lots of people will be retiring in the next few years and this will create labor shortages. The recession may slow the need but it will never do away with it. There is a basic difference between your way of thinking and mine. For me, culturally diversity is normal whereas for you it is a threat that should be halted at all costs, even it means less economic growth. If you consider yourself a conservative, then you should embrace competition in all sectors. Having state-owned monopolies and private sector oligopolies are another breed of right- and left-wing political thought.”
Cultural conflict is a threat. And everywhere where you try to make multiple different cultures exist in same area you either have one dominant culture which dictates framework for interaction or you have conflict.
That is the way world works. I do not want conflict, thus immigrants must integrate and adjust to Finnish culture. This means learning Finnish language and culture.
Only once they have these skills, they can be employed as widely as natives.
-”What do you mean by “many.” Is that a majority of a majority within a minority? What is a “crap worker?” Here you talk about the rights of
indigenous groups but then throw crap at people by belittling what they do. The PS and other groups in that same category not only represent marginalized people from our society, but people who see things in a very black-and-white populist way. What you are saying is nothing unique. People who feel estranged from society and their political system say what you say in many different languages. It is good to kick and bitch but then another thing to actually manage the situation. If the PS and other groups in that same vein would be in power, it would spell economic ruin for Finland.”
No really. It would spell future of success for Finland. Once all that politically correct crap was cut off from society and immigrants were made understand that they either integrate or emigrate…
Things start to work, and PS would lose support and be replaced by other parties who hopefully by that time would understand that multiculturalism does not work.
Natives are huge majority, thus our interests ARE interests of Finland. You foreigners are fleetingly small minority.
And will remain so, because this society requires skills which are not found in huge majority of foreign population (Finnish language and culture).
Thus, foreigners will always end up with two options.
1) Adjust to Finland, go native.
2) Bitch, moan and whine and leech the system.
There are no third options for any notable amount of immigrants.
There simply aren’t enough hubbabubbans to have 2509 stores to sell hubbabubban lubba-supplies. Maybe handful in major cities, but not many.
Same with restaurants. You can’t run hubbabubban restaurants aimed only at hubbabubbans in Finland. You would not have enough customers to keep yourself profitable.
So immigrants have to adjust to realities and requirements of Finland. That means adjusting themselves to Finnish society. And Finnish society is run by Finnish culture and Finnish language. If it was not, it would not be Finnish society.
We Finns like Finnish society, it is what we call ours. And since we are over 90% of population, it is our want which matters.
So, sooner you and rest of fools like you stop preaching multiculturalism and start telling immigrants that they have to integrate to Finnish society on Finnish terms…
Sooner you will defuse the issue of existing racism, which does exist but nowhere in the level you try to pretend. Most of YOUR racism is racism of immigrants against Finns. Not of Finns against immigrants.
We simply our life. We have no need to appease you or your wants. Either you adjust, or you end up unemployed. Your call.
March 11, 2009 at 8:38 pm
I would like to share my personal experiences with you.
After reading about the social, economical and political status quo of Finland, I found myself amazed by what this tiny country managed to achieve despite the great deal of misfortune it suffered over centuries. I was encouraged to read more about finnish history, and I eventually came across some articles about its educational system, which is said to be the best one in the world (PISA). The combination of all these aspects were the spark for further studies. Having realized that my country could learn a lot from Finland (in all senses), I decided to carry out some research about the role of education on finnish well-being, and I even wrote some papers for my university, which were rated very highly by the teachers. Far from satisfied, I decided that I should learn more about your culture, way of life and, of course, your language (which is beautiful). So I started to look for either professional or academic opportunities in Finland. I even started to study finnish by myself with a book I managed to find in my university’s library. At that time, my only source of information about Finland was a “pen-pal”, who warmly welcommed me in his house for 2 weeks after a “very good 2 and a half years on-line friendship.” Having found no feasible way of studying/working in Suomi, I ended up spending a few days in Helsinki as a tourist. At least this finnish friend is now a very good one, and I learnt how to cook runebergin tortut (and this weekend I’m gonna try to cook karjalanpiirakka).
Sorry for the lenghty text, but without it, it would be hard to convey my frustration and ask the following question: I was not a migrant worker. On the contrary, I was willing to learn the finnish language, to understand finnish values and principles, to help my community to develop based on what can be learnt from Finland. Why couldn’t I? Because I’m not an European citizen? Because Finland isn’t really willing to share its positive and negative aspects with foreigners?
Let’s debate?
March 12, 2009 at 6:01 am
So what was your problem?
That you could not obtain residence?
It is not actually all that surprising.
Think about it. If EU opened it’s borders, we would have horde of African, Middle Eastern and Russian(working as general term for Russians, Ukrainians etc here) people rushing for better life.
It would ruin EU.
So, EU has rather strict limitations on who is permitted in and who is not. To be permitted in, you need a job.
And to hire someone outsider EU, employer must show that this vacancy could not be easily filled by EU citizen.
It is a way for EU to look after it’s own interests. It is not in EU interests to have people outside EU take jobs, leaving EU citizens unemployed. It would lead to increased social issues through unintegrating immigrants topped up with increased amount of unemployment in citizens.
So, it is not quite easy for employer to hire non-EU. And for them to go through that trouble, you have to make big impression on them.
Sorry but there is no easy shortcut for those who want to integrate. Because there is no method of confirming if you REALLY want to integrate or if you just say so because you want in.
Besides, Finnish solutions are developed to fit Finland and it’s conditions. Which are in many ways rather unique.
They would most likely fail thoroughly if attempted elsewhere. Here we again come to question of culture.
Finnish society works, because it and Finnish culture have grown hand in hand. Try to replace Finnish society with different society, or Finnish culture with another culture and you have recipe for failure.
March 12, 2009 at 6:56 am
This, what you are saying, is the language of a person living in fear who thinks his is on a high stool. Great societies were never created with so much exclusion as you are suggesting. Mateus makes an excellent point and shows in raw the basic flaw and problem in your thinking specifically and generally about Finland.
March 12, 2009 at 7:01 am
Hi Mateus, if a country or its people are too ignorant to notice potential and reap the advantage of outsiders, I would not waste a second in such a country. That is one of the reason why there is no mad rush to move to Finland. It explains why we have the oldest population in the EU and why xenophobia is still too prevalent for anyone’s comfort. There are tons of better countries to make a living where finding a job is thousands of times easier and where you will be appreciated. Another important point: do not let it get you down. One should not give up trying. But this “staff work” situation Finland is a chronic problem among foreigners never mind finding a decent job. As you know, there is also higher unemployment among foreigners in Finland than the rest of the EU. All these facts show how much in diapers Finland is with respect to housing immigrants. In other words, the country has good intentions and wants to understand but is still very much in the dark.
March 12, 2009 at 1:54 pm
Yes well Mateus the question is not what you “want”. The question is – what the country wants. There are opportunities to study and to work. However as they are meant for directly aimed niches, you have to fit into such a niche. It doesn’t matter what you “want” – you need to fit into the niche. As a non-EU you have the additional problem you need to prove that you are the only one to fit that niche available – that there is nobody else in Finland nor the EU to fit that niche. As Enrique says, theres already people in the country that find no niche, so what benefit exactly would we have importing someone? It would benefit you of course, but the reason for the success is that we think of us, not you.
There is no flaws in Finland Enrique, as Mateus says he wants to come here to see why we are successful. If you were correct we would be going to Mateus’ home to see how things work.
March 12, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Actually, the country is in economic ruin with the Centre and Kokoomus in the government, and they ought to be the ones embracing the free competition if any.
March 13, 2009 at 6:22 am
-”Hi Mateus, if a country or its people are too ignorant to notice potential and reap the advantage of outsiders, I would not waste a second in such a country. That is one of the reason why there is no mad rush to move to Finland. It explains why we have the oldest population in the EU and why xenophobia is still too prevalent for anyone’s comfort. There are tons of better countries to make a living where finding a job is thousands of times easier and where you will be appreciated. Another important point: do not let it get you down. One should not give up trying. But this “staff work” situation Finland is a chronic problem among foreigners never mind finding a decent job. As you know, there is also higher unemployment among foreigners in Finland than the rest of the EU. All these facts show how much in diapers Finland is with respect to housing immigrants. In other words, the country has good intentions and wants to understand but is still very much in the dark.”
Mad rush?
If we opened borders, we would be swimming in immigrants.
But it is not in our interests to let them in. We need SKILLED and INTEGRATING immigrants. Not any wanker who just wants to come in. We have no use for Somali Lion Tamers.
And if they can’t communicate with natives, they are worthless in nearly every situation.
Apparently you Enrique are simply too thick to grasp it, but current world is all about communication.
If immigrant is too stupid/lazy/arrogant to learn to conduct his communication in local language. They deserve no pity.
Yes, it will take a long time. Cry me a f***** river. It changes nothing.
France and Germany have good warning example of uncontrolled immigration. Paris riots and issues with Germany and gastarbaiters.
Those are issues Finland does not need.
March 13, 2009 at 8:44 am
–If we opened borders, we would be swimming in immigrants.
This is your deepest unfounded fear. It is exactly what feeds your suspicion and confines you to a very tiny world.
March 13, 2009 at 8:47 am
–If immigrant is too stupid/lazy/arrogant to learn to conduct his communication in local language.
I think this is exactly an issue with you, Tiwaz.
March 13, 2009 at 6:55 pm
Hmmm…
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1161659/Theyre-Mass-migrants-queue-Sangatte-reach-Promised-Land-UK.html
And reading the comment section… not too much “praise of multiculturalism”. What gives?
March 13, 2009 at 7:29 pm
–Yes, but the thing is, that *we* choose what *we* want to take from the other culture(s). Not that someone comes and *tells* us what we must do, as that surely gets the Finn to revolt.
If we are fair, not you nor any group decides that. It just happens. Cultures are societal organisms that have one goal: survive to see the next day. If we can survive better then culture will incorporate these new things and adapt them. What do you mean by “telling” what to do? I do not understand this. There are laws in Finland that permit and defend cultural diversity. If you go against this, aren’t you the one “telling others” what to do?
March 16, 2009 at 1:04 pm
It our laws and it is our country and our culture and our ways, not theirs. They choose to come here, they choose our laws, our country, our ways and choose to live in our culture – we don’t choose theirs.
March 16, 2009 at 1:15 pm
Weak nationalistic argument. Does not hold any water.
March 17, 2009 at 6:10 am
How about proving it does not hold water.
What right does guest have to impose his/her values on host?
There isn’t single culture in the world where that is accepted and embraced as practice. Guests are always expected to respect ways and habits of hosts.
And you immigrants are guests. You are not native.
If you are unhappy here, f*** off. If you think London is like home, go there.
You have no right to come here demand me to give you my home and end up homeless myself.
March 17, 2009 at 6:30 am
Section 1 The Constitution
(1) Finland is a sovereign republic.
Section 2 Democracy and the rule of law
(1) The powers of the State in Finland are vested in the people, who are represented by the Parliament.
See – it doesn’t read “foreigners rule over us and tell us what to do”.
March 17, 2009 at 8:51 am
–See – it doesn’t read “foreigners rule over us and tell us what to do”.
Did I ever say that? Those people “who are represented in parliament” can be from diverse backgrounds. I am totally for this. Your views are so strong against multiculturalism and giving immigrants equal rights that it is you that wants to change the laws. I have told you a thousand times: if you disagree with the system do something about it.
March 17, 2009 at 9:35 am
-”Did I ever say that? Those people “who are represented in parliament” can be from diverse backgrounds. I am totally for this. Your views are so strong against multiculturalism and giving immigrants equal rights that it is you that wants to change the laws. I have told you a thousand times: if you disagree with the system do something about it.”
They are not from very diverse backgrounds.
They represent “tiny” majority of 90+% Finns. Imagine that! Issue is that they are sadly distanced from problems of average person on the street.
You see rather few immigrant gangs causing issues in Eira. And if you drive on taxpayer money paid taxi fares or other, you avoid danger of becoming “enriched” by local immigrants in dark parks.
That is why PS party is getting more and more support. Other parties have missed that people are getting unhappy with immigrants causing problems.
As for immigrants and equal rights.
You are lying. There is no any notable amount of inequality based on race.
Immigrants are not failing to get jobs because they are immigrants. They fail to get jobs because they LACK SKILLS.
It just does not get into your thick head does it Enrique?
If immigrant does not speak the local language or understand local code of conduct. They have huge holes in their basic skills.
People are employed for their skills. Out of available candidates ones who have most skills are hired, or if even best one is below minimum criteria then they keep looking.
You try to pretend here, like true racist you are Enrique, that immigrants should have preferential treatment. That for immigrant, lack of essential interaction skills should be ignored.
That is not equality, it is inequality.
And we are doing something. Here, people are speaking against your insane desires to bring more trouble to this country in form of multiculturalism. And how do you know me, or DT, are not politically active? Come next election, perhaps I participate in some form. By voting in the least.
March 17, 2009 at 10:10 am
–That is why PS party is getting more and more support. Other parties have missed that people are getting unhappy with immigrants causing problems.
The stand of the PS party shows cowardice. They are a political party that has to use some populist method to get votes in the OPPOSITION. If they ever got a majority in the Eduskunta and we had a PS prime minister, it would be social, political and economic ruin. They do not have what it takes to govern Finland. They do, however, act like cowards picking on minorities to incite populism and thereby get votes. But you should not hold your breath, Tiwaz. Gaining so many seats in Eduskunta is a pipedream for the PS. The PS will be like SMP = Sirkka, minä ja Pekka. For those who are not familiar with Finnish politics, the SMP was led by a charismatic populist called Veikko Vennamo up to the 1980s. Sirkka was his wife, minä means “me” (Veikko) and Pekka was his son. In Bolivia they call them “taxi parties.” They are so small that you can fit all their members in the backseat of a taxi.
March 17, 2009 at 11:41 am
They will never get in power, that is true. But it is not because their political issue that immigrants are problem is false.
But because alarmed major parties will soon have to look in the ugly reality and they will take far more firm stance on immigrants. In essence, success of PS party will cause major parties to get over their idiotic multicultural fandom and actually drive Finnish interests.
Rise of immigrant critical parties is obvious everywhere in Europe. People are not happy in unsafe society where cultural conflicts lead to increased crime, riots, culturally motivated murder…
As more people come in contact with what your multiculturalism has to offer, more they start to demand action from leaders. And leaders will deliver, or else they become SMP.
All that is necessary is to give them strong hint that people want change on immigrant issue. And that is taking place with rise of PS party.
March 17, 2009 at 11:46 am
–But because alarmed major parties will soon have to look in the ugly reality and they will take far more firm stance on immigrants.
The ugly reality will be a blow to our standard of living because there are not enough people to do jobs nor pay taxes. It is vital that immigrants can adapt and contribute to Finland. We need to make it work. Wake up and smell the coffee, Tiwaz.
March 18, 2009 at 5:43 am
-”The ugly reality will be a blow to our standard of living because there are not enough people to do jobs nor pay taxes. It is vital that immigrants can adapt and contribute to Finland. We need to make it work. Wake up and smell the coffee, Tiwaz.”
We are having high unemployment as it is. Manpower intensive business is reduced hugely in Finland, and it will continue to dwindle.
Finland does not need goatherders from dark Africa or Middle East who can’t speak Finnish and think that miniskirt is offer of sex. We have no goats here to herd in any notable amount. And we take grave offense if some foreign bastard tries to impose his barbaric cultural values here and rapes women because he is too arrogant or stupid to adjust to local society.
We need immigrants who have useful skills, desire to integrate to this society on terms of this society. And who understand that there is no alternative to speaking Finnish if you want to live in Finland and who are prepared to go through the hard work of learning to speak instead of whining that nobody hires their unskilled asses.
I have nothing against immigrants, QUALITY immigrants that is. But what you want here, Enrique, are unwashed masses of people who have no useful skills and who lack the language abilities to do rest of the jobs.
As I have pointed out repeatedly, practically every low skill job is one where you can’t work without fluent Finnish. Finnish is essential skill for working. Unless immigrants get over their idiotic attitude that some other language can replace Finnish in Finland or that not speaking is huge obstacle… There will be no work for them.
Higher skill level jobs are ones where there might be chance to avoid need of Finnish. But those require higher education and high level of competency. And again, immigrant will compete with Finns who have fluency in foreign languages, high level of education and who are capable of acting in this society without a hitch.
Let’s take 2 applicants for some position. One is Briton who only speaks English and has suitable education for the job. Another is Finn who also has suitable education for the job. But Finn speaks at least Finnish AND English fluently enough to succeed. And often one or two other languages.
See, British guy, despite being native in English, is actually INFERIOR in skills department because he things all he needs is English. Not only he lacks the skills, but because he never has put effort to learning different languages he has far inferior starting point to learn them, considering he has lost his learning abilities of youth when you figure out how to learn languages efficiently.
Biggest issue in immigration is making this British guy understand that his native English is not the huge boon he thinks he is. He lacks adaptability and ability to learn more as efficiently as those who have from young age learned foreign languages and practiced them.
Or another illusion immigrants have that they can just keep doing just like at home even when they come to foreign country. That is half arrogance and another half ignorance. Finland is not like any other country in the world. We do not WANT it to be like any other country in the world. We FINNS like our country as it is, Finnish.
So if immigrant comes here and starts acting against OUR cultural norms… We are going to be pissed. And we are not going to hire some wanker who does not know how to behave properly.
Again, we come to issue that it is immigrants who should look in the mirror and understand they have to change. Not Finns. We live in our little country the way we like. Because it is OUR country. OUR society. OUR culture.
We will not change our country, our society or our culture to fit you foreigners. If you come here, you adjust to us.
March 18, 2009 at 12:47 pm
The ugly reality there is no jobs.
And as stated elsewhere, if the immigrants get integrated into the society they become productive workers. So its no use having people immigrating in, if they end up scratching their ass. We don’t need a labor reserve, we need people hired for jobs. Thats the difference, and we don’t need a multicultural ghettoes to achieve that. We can maintain a stable society and avoid the problems everyone else has.
March 18, 2009 at 8:20 pm
Your arguments do not hold water, DeTant. Read page 11 of Magdalena Jaakkola’s latest 1987-2007 attitude study:
Tämä johtuu Suomen poikkeuksellisen voimakkaasta väestörakenteen
muutoksesta. Suurten ikäluokkien siirtyessä eläkkeelle Suomea uhkaa työvoimapula.
Jo vuonna 2005 työmarkkinoilta poistunut ikäluokka oli suurempi
kuin niille tullut. Vaikka ikääntyneet, osa-aikaiset, työttömät ja vajaakuntoiset
saataisiin työhön, kotimainen työvoiman tarjonta ei vastaisi kysyntää.
Eläkeiän nousu ja syntyvyyden kasvu eivät ehdi korjata Euroopan epäedullisinta
vanhushuoltosuhdetta. (Kautto 2004; Sailas 2008). Vuosina 2010–
2025 työikäinen väestö vähenee 265 000 henkilöllä eli noin 17 000 henkilöllä
vuodessa, vaikka vuotuinen nettomaahanmuutto olisi nykyiset 7 500 henkilöä.
Suomi on muuttumassa edullisen huoltosuhteen maasta maaksi, jossa
ikääntyneiden osuus on Euroopan korkeimpia. 65 vuotta täyttäneiden määrä
kasvaa vuoden 2006 noin 870 000 henkilöstä puolella miljoonalla 1 370 000
henkilöön vuoteen 2025 mennessä. Raimo Sailaksen (24.10.2008) mukaan
vanhushuoltosuhde – yli 64-vuotiaiden suhde 15–64-vuotiaisiin – on nykyään
25 prosenttia, mutta nousee lähes 40 prosenttiin vuonna 2020. Väestön
ikääntyminen on voimakasta koko maassa, mutta suhteellisesti nopeinta se
on pääkaupunkiseudulla. (Työministeriö 2007)
If you disagree with this, then you better talk directly with the respective authorities and prove to them that Finland does not face any labor shortage.
March 19, 2009 at 5:57 am
What f**** labor shortage?
Unemployment is GOING UP!
Even on the good years before this recession, unemployment dropped extremely slowly.
Issue here is that this Magdalena carefully does not include into her study fact that modernization of work leads to LESS people being needed to do the same job.
And that companies in their quest of surpassing last quarters profits try to whip even more work from less workers.
Because of this, and reduction of labor intensive low-level work overall in Finland (due low requirements of job and how unskilled labor is cheaper elsewhere) there is no labor shortage.
In short, Jaakkola made study avoiding the other effects of progress to make it look what she wanted it to look like. Essentially she wrote piece of useless propaganda.
March 19, 2009 at 6:06 am
And one more point Enrique.
Those fields where there might be “shortage” of labor…
Tend to be ones that actually require SKILLS. Goatherder from darkest Africa will not have required knowledge to be SAP engineer no matter how hard they immigrate.
And 10 000 goatherders will not turn into single SAP engineer. Quantity does not replace quality.
And then we come to question of essential communications skills which are absent in huge, huge majority of immigrants when they enter the country.
And which is issue which you are not helping to solve Enrique, by trying to encourage immigrants not to adjust to Finnish society on Finnish terms but by trying to tell them to demand that Finns yield to immigrant terms.
March 19, 2009 at 3:27 pm
DeTamt, I mean Twiaz, “goat herders?!” I like what you learned at school. Is that what your parents taught you about immigrants?March 19, 2009 at 3:29 pm
-Unemployment is GOING UP!
Please stop using 2+2=4 logic to complex issues.
March 19, 2009 at 4:41 pm
School taught us to read statistics. If you haven’t read, only 5-10% of residence permits (thats non-EU immigrants) are granted for the reason of “work”. So what do the rest 90-95% of the non-EU then come here for? Family reasons, studying, asylum etc. etc.
As for “goat herders” if you look at the non-EU immigration that is not coming here for work reasons, the fact also is that many of the people coming in as refugees from countries like Somalia or Afghanistan, the infrastructure has collapsed so the children never have been to school. Was it 90% of certain groups being illiterate. So where do you place illiterate people to work in a modern postindustrial society if they are from a virtually preindustrial society?
If we need a nurse, we get a trained nurse from the Philippines, we don’t take a SAP engineer from India. If we need a SAP engineer we’re not hiring a nurse from the Philippines. And as far as uneducated labor is concerned, theres no positions for illiterate goatherders.
March 19, 2009 at 4:49 pm
There is no labor shortage if there are no jobs. To support the population going on pension we need working people who pay taxes. You apparently cannot understand the difference. Even if there would move 200 000 people into Finland, they still would not benefit anything to the society if they were sitting at home on welfare benefits. On the contrary they would be an additional burden. So, once again: there is no need for unemployable people to be “storaged” somewhere to sit unemployed. When we have an open job and there is someone available to do it, then they will get hired. They won’t get hired now.