It is a noble matter that Finns are interested in multiculturalism.
For some, the term awakens mixed emotions: some embrace it while others equate it with the destruction of Finnish culture.
Before even debating multiculturalism, we should define what it means. As everyone knows, multiculturalism is a policy started up in Canada about 20 years ago to fuel greater respect between cultures and permit minorities opportunities to take part in society. Multiculturalism can also mean a society where “many cultures” coexist.
What does this great interest in Finland on multiculturalism reveal? It shows how much in diapers we still are about the whole concept. Think about it: We have to learn about cultural diversity because it is foreign to us.
The Finns are not the only ones in Europe grappling with multiculturalism. In Spain, some will blame the problems that immigrants “cause” is due to their lack of familiarity with people from other countries. “It has been such a short time since we have had so many immigrants,” some responded. Surprisingly, I have heard this same argument in countries such as Switzerland. “It has been a relatively short time since foreigners moved to this country,” a Swiss said.
There are some good and bad points about Finland being a young nation. The good news is that it has successfully forged a national identity and enjoyed the hard-won fruits of nationhood. The bad news is that it has had so many outside real and imagined enemies that some fear that the country and culture must still be in a state of high alert against foreign threats.
It would be naive to claim that planting the seeds of multiculturalism in a country such as Finland will not pose any challenges. One of the greatest of these, in my opinion, will be how Finns will forge their new national identity in this century.
Finns can learn a lot by studying multiculturalism in classes but the real test will come when we switch from the “lectures” to the “lab.”
I once mentioned that a friend told me that as an immigrant you learn things about yourself you never knew. In the same fashion, countries learn a lot about what they are when their immigrant population grow.
What are the good and bad things that multiculturalism will bring out among the Finns? Even though the answer to that question is still hidden by the future, one matter is for certain: We will see what the Finns and Finland are made of.
Will cultural diversity bring out the best or worst qualities of our society?
March 13, 2009 at 6:35 am
How about comparing Canada with Finland hmm?
This multicultural Canada…
It is creation from couple centuries ago. It lacks unified, established cultural unity. It is, in a sense, bastardisation of this and that and little of something else.
Finland, has Finnish culture as dominant factor. Our history actually exceeds known history. Nobody knows when people who became Finns came here, and most likely never will.
Swedes and Russians did at one point control Finland. But they just wanted money. They were happy to let Finns live Finnish lives as long as Finns paid taxes and fought their wars.
So, Finns remained Finns. This is part which Enrique here has problems grasping. He thinks this is multiculturalism! It is everything but. Finns were isolated from colonial lords, who in turn did not want to have anything to do with Finnish ways. Those Finns who wanted to be in contact with those rulers, had to do it by cultural and language norms of RULERS. There was practically no cultural equality.
Today Finland has few long standing cultural minorities. Jews, tatars, swedes and lapps. What we notice about them, is that none of these groups has practices which would be considered offensive by Finnish culture. Closest one is circumcision of jews, but they do not openly flaunt this practice. It is kept inside family, which in turn is protected by Finnish cultural respect of privacy.
Out of more or less native cultural groups, gypsies are one that most openly and most commonly goes against Finnish culture. And we know how loved they are, not to mention how loved they are everywhere where there are notable number of them.
So as we see, history sets Finland and Canada firmly apart as societies.
Trying to implement Canadian model, which only recently has started to have actually notable amount of TOTALLY alien cultural groups move in and is starting to show it’s failures as conflicts of different cultural norms are starting to pop up more regularily, in Finland is trying to hammer square peg into round hole.
It is impossible.
On this issue, another question should be raised…
Where comes the right of foreigner moving to another country and demanding that his cultural ways should be followed and respected by host nation?
This whole concept of guest having right to overrule the host is alien to EVERY culture in existence. Guests, even if they plan to stay permanently, ALWAYS have been expected to adapt and respect HOST culture and tradition.
When this rule has been broken, conflict is result.
March 13, 2009 at 3:08 pm
I don’t think there was any comparison between Finland and Canada. It was just a brief explanation of what “multiculturalism” means.
Tiwaz, you’re totally right when you claim that “finns have always been finns”. However, it is way too naive of you to assume that finnish culture has remained the same ever since the end of the last Ice Age, without having suffered influences from abroad. The very Russian and Swedish occupations shaped the “justifiable xenophobia” currently present in Finland.
Multiculturalism can bring out the best aspects of finnish society provided that finnish culture remains sovereign. How can we subject one culture to another without sparking conflicts?
March 13, 2009 at 5:17 pm
Hi Mateus, muito obrigado for dropping by and posting. You make an interesting point. I do not know what you mean by “justifiable xenophobia.” Is it ever justifiable? One point I think Tiwaz does not get is that cultures do become stagnant and not stay in some time warp. When people from different cultures meet, they bring changes in the cultural perceptions. To take an example, let’s ask what has influenced Finnish culture in the past forty years — a very huge list of factors coming from outside of our borders. Has it made Finnish culture weaker as a result? Of course not. Thus perceptions of culture (minorities and the majority) change. It is the most natural thing in the world.
March 13, 2009 at 7:11 pm
Yes, but the thing is, that *we* choose what *we* want to take from the other culture(s). Not that someone comes and *tells* us what we must do, as that surely gets the Finn to revolt.
You look at Finland and Japan for example, and you go to a certain section of the city at night and you are suddenly transposed into 1950’s USA with winged cars and guys in leather jackets dressed like Elvis. You take another night and in Finland and Japan you can enter a dance hall where people dance ballroom tango, and finish the night singing karaoke. Meanwhile in both countries it is still the things that make these countries “Finnish” or “Japanese” that make the society work.
It is for the Finn or the Japanese, the French, British or German to decide if and what he wishes to adapt into the society.
Canada is a bad example because the Americas are composed of countries based on the decimation of original cultures and superimposing European colonial cultures. Canada of course is a more peaceful and somewhat “civilized” example, but still the main difference is – the country is “empty” and there was space to form new industries, so immigrants were needed and wanted. Canada didn’t restrict immigration like USA did. In the 1950’s Australia paid for people to immigrate. Right now Spain is *paying* for immigrants to leave.
Finland has a faltering economy, the industrial production is plummeting, and really we have no need whatsoever for new ghettoes. If you want to live in multiculturalism this or next year, you need to go to Canada or UK. Finland is still a few decades behind in ghetto development.
March 13, 2009 at 7:32 pm
DeTant, stop with the Japan comparison. In the end of the 1980s some Finns compared Finland’s economic growth to Japan. Now you are comparing Finnish society with Japanese. As you know, I have always maintained that the differences we create are sometimes exaggerated for a specific reason and definitely in between our heads. Read some Claude Lévy-Strauss. He has some good ideas how folktales are basically the same in every culture. Remember, we all came from Africa and then because of our restlessness, cultural curiosity, spread throughout the globe. The differences you speak of are more national than cultural.
March 13, 2009 at 7:40 pm
Here is some interesting for you DeTant: Mexican philosopher José Vasconcello said in his study “Raza Cósmica” (1925), that in Latin America a new race will come into being, “made of the treasury of all the previous races, the final race, the cosmic race. No part of the world has ever witnessed such a gigantic mixing of races or ethnic groups as the one that has been taking place in Latin America and the Caribbean since Christopher Columbus set foot on Hispañola in 1492.
–Finland has a faltering economy, the industrial production is plummeting, and really we have no need whatsoever for new ghettoes.
I think you exaggerate about the economic situation. Please go live in a third world country and tell me what is plummeting economic and industrial growth as well as living below the poverty line. You just do not know how good you have it in Finland. Anyway, I think your attitude towards more foreigners coming to Finland and your nationalism will create those ghettos you speak of. There needs to be a new way of thinking about this. Possibly multiculturalism could be the most effective answer we have to date. Please do not suggest closing our borders. We cannot do that and you know that is an unrealistic option.
March 13, 2009 at 8:00 pm
Finns revolt! Ha, now that’s the funniest thing I’ve heard for a long time.
They wouldn’t have a clue what revolt is, unless it means getting a bigger car/house etcetera.
And Tiwaz, better turn off your TV set, it’s warping you cultural mind, along with the bulk of the Finnish population.
Finns have become more American than the Americans themselves in their adaptation of the “Americam Dream” business model, (the SUV – buy now pay later – club) who now realize they’ve backed the wrong culture of start your own business and borrow your way into what it really means to progress.
The Finish socialist culture was a much better – safer – bet.
Now you Finns are back to the drawing board of what it means to be Finnish or in reality (how the great EU has left you) alone, for which you should be gratefully thankful in that multiculturalism (and central EU government, thanks to the Lisbon Treaty, and the financial crisis) looks like becoming less of a problem.
March 13, 2009 at 8:08 pm
I use the expression “justifiable xenophobia” because the finnish prejudice against foreigners is usually, in history books, said to be the result of the relationship of Finland with its neighboring countries, and therefore is acceptable. But I don’t share this view.
Tiwaz, I agree with you. What happened in the American continent (and this includes South America) is a shame, and must not be repeated. But nobody is asking you to host loads of illegal immigrants in your house.
The main point is that we are now in the 21st century, and it is no longer possible for you to build fences around yourselves. If you try to do so, it is no use doing business. Trade itself loses its sense and this disencourages entrepreneurship, which leads to unemployment. This is a vicious chain created by capitalism, and perhaps what Finland needs is a more aggresive approach, since its current economy is solid. Furthermore, not only does controlled immigration bring fresh and eager workforce, but it also, and mainly, brings new ideas, new perspectives.
In this sense, multiculturalism does not mean migration phenomena, but knowledge exchange with other nations. Such exchange does imply demographic movements and other social issues (underclass, poverty, etc), but Finland is totally capable of dealing with and tackling these problems. It has already proved to be one of the most resilient and competent nations, so why would this be a problem?
March 13, 2009 at 11:19 pm
Your comment is spot on, Mateus. I think this is the big challenge in Finland and I agree with you: we are capable of solving this matter.
March 15, 2009 at 7:12 pm
“Finns can learn a lot by studying multiculturalism in classes but the real test will come when we switch from the “lectures” to the “lab.””
I have lived in lab and thats not pretty so i conclude it wont work.
March 16, 2009 at 7:11 am
-”Tiwaz, you’re totally right when you claim that “finns have always been finns”. However, it is way too naive of you to assume that finnish culture has remained the same ever since the end of the last Ice Age, without having suffered influences from abroad. The very Russian and Swedish occupations shaped the “justifiable xenophobia” currently present in Finland.”
When have I said that Finnish culture has not changed? But I have said, and underlined, that it is FINNS who changed it. If we saw system which brought benefits in another culture and it did not conflict with our own, we adapted it to ours. Made it ours.
Enrique here wants to dictate to us how we should live our lives. How our culture should work. He wants to be that same colonial lord who went to South America and wiped out natives to impose his own way.
“Multiculturalism can bring out the best aspects of finnish society provided that finnish culture remains sovereign.”
THAT IS THE BLOODY ISSUE!
Multiculturalism DENIES sovereignity of Finnish culture. It demands that all cultures must be respected. THAT is failure of multiculturalism. Cultures are not compatible. They have conflicting principles.
I have always said that anyone can have their own culture, but IT MUST BE SUBJECT TO FRAMEWORK OF FINNISH CULTURE.
As I have said before. Be free to have your own culture in Finland if you adjust it to Finnish cultural framework.
If something is denied by Finnish culture, it is denied for you as well. Regardless of what your culture says.
If something is permitted by Finnish culture, you may not deny it for anyone else. Regardless of what your culture says.
Two simple rules for living in Finland. But multiculturalism demands that such sovereign position should not exist. We should raise culture of sheepherders from assend of the world to equal status with Finnish, in Finland, and let them have their barbaric way.
And Paddy, Finns know how to revolt. We are just slow to anger. Last time this Czar guy wanted to “Russian” us it led to such issues. Finns do not take kindly to attitude of forcing your foreign way to us.
Twice they tried, and last time led to Finns deciding we are better off alone. No need for open armed rebellion, since some nice guy offed the idiot on the throne, but you might notice that Finns were actually preparing for that alternative as well.
March 16, 2009 at 8:57 am
–Enrique here wants to dictate to us how we should live our lives. How our culture should work. He wants to be that same colonial lord who went to South America and wiped out natives to impose his own way.
I am not dictating anything. They are the laws of Finland you should take a closer look. And, a small revelation for you: “respect in the United States” means equal respect NOT respect to a higher body. In the United States we talk about respect between cultures and peoples. Your issue is that you have a very difficult time a) RESPECTING the law and b) accepting the fact that Finland is changing and that it will be comprised by different ethnic groups.
–I have always said that anyone can have their own culture, but IT MUST BE SUBJECT TO FRAMEWORK OF FINNISH CULTURE.
Incorrect. It should work under the framework of the law. What you are saying is that we accept you as long as you adapt our cultural ways. You speak generally because you do not understand yourself how this works in practice. So, I wait, your response on this one.
March 16, 2009 at 9:02 am
–Multiculturalism DENIES sovereignity of Finnish culture. It demands that all cultures must be respected. THAT is failure of multiculturalism. Cultures are not compatible. They have conflicting principles.
So, because you give a certain culture the right to practice their ways and defend them from racism and discrimination is denial of “sovereignty” to Finnish culture? Tiwaz, since you appear to shed crocodile tears for indigenous groups, racism/ethnocentrism/discrimination is nothing more than a way to subjugate minorities by the majority culture.
March 16, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Enrique:
Sorry but if anything I’m downplaying the economic situation. With the current layoffs and the industrial production dropped to 1/3 of what it was last year as well as the government getting deeper into the debt we ain’t seen nothing yet. Already now the courts are overwhelmed with bankruptcy hearings.
Mateus:
But Enrique and his ilk are. They want an uncontrolled ghetto society that is “multiculturalism”. You look at the situation in UK and France right now, the EU has a serious problem with illegal immigration abusing the refugee and asylum system. It has already collapsed in Greece, its collapsing in Italy and Malta, Spain and France are already saturated. The EU wants to disperse the problem and at the end of the day we have to scrap our “humane approach” and become as nasty as Denmark.
There were only five asylum applications in Estonia last year. Thats five, not fifty or five hundred. And yoiu know why – Estonia doesn’t give handouts. So its economical migration to Finland. At the moment there is a need of 50 new asylum seeker centres, the current paperwork takes up to three years, and people given asylum or a residence permit don’t have the counties willing to place them, as the counties have no money and see no benefits in having more people with no job prospects that are a burden to them. Look at the home county of our PM Vanhanen. How many refugees has the county housed – zero. Thats mighty white of him championing the nation against “racism”.
The issues are EU-wide and either you look at the long-term or short term situation what is needed is resources which means money. And where is that money coming from? Not from the economy so its the taxpayers who need to shell out. According to a recent VTTK study the immigrants cost more than they produce, so I fail to see Enriques point in any benefits. The only thing is like Paddy said we will have to scrap the Nordic Welfare Society and the socialism, to make Finland less desirable for economic immigrants. Any option the future is shit.
March 16, 2009 at 12:58 pm
I think the issue is that foreigners have a problem respecting Finnish laws. I do not understand what makes you want us to respect discrimination against gays and women and promote genital mutilation?
If some native people have a tradition I respect their culture doing that in their own country, but it might not be not respected here, as this is uur country and our culture is the one respected here.
March 16, 2009 at 3:24 pm
http://www.riemurasia.net/jylppy/media.php?id=61404
March 16, 2009 at 6:10 pm
Touché, DeTant. I like how you turn around a valid argument and accuse the person. That sounds strangely like Tiwaz, as if you were his “twin.”
Have you noticed that every time you speak about laws that defend immigrants’ rights you are always bringing things up such as genital mutilation. Good try but no cigar.
By law and design, Finland is a multicultural society where we do not permit genital mutilation of women. We do, however, permit male circumcision. As I told you before, the UN Declaration of Human Rights should apply in Finland when we talk about gender discrimination and other matters. However, there are many more positive things about immigration that what you have pointed out.
March 16, 2009 at 6:12 pm
Tiwaz, (business men, the smart ones have sold/selling your culture)
Paddy ha ha here. There’s no doubt the Finish lads are tough, but most lack the smarts unfortunately.
The smart Finns rap the Finnish flag around them nurture themselves till they’re full grown. Then they adapt American culture/business and take over.
Even the Russians got in on the act; they are buying up land and business so fast they’ll soon out do the Finnish Americans.
I guess buying the land/country makes much better sense, but who would of thought the Finns would sell their land to the very ones who tried to take it with a gun. It beats me.
I said it before and I’ll say it again: Finland lost its culture when they handed (sold) it to business to run.
So tell me, if Finns are able, why are they not revolting against the revolting- BUSINESS.
Time – revolt – to take back your country from the elite.
March 16, 2009 at 9:23 pm
Heres analysis about multiculturalism, read it and understand it. And if you dont believe it then please something more than “thats nationalist text”. http://vanhasuomi.blogspot.com/2007/11/epkorrektin-teoria.html
March 16, 2009 at 10:28 pm
Onkko, this is all pretty negative text and uses, as far as I read, examples of poor countries where basic human rights are not respected. But you have to understand that Finland, or the rest of the Western world, has dealt with human rights violations. When the blogger claims that never in world history has a “multicultural” society survived, I believe he is wrong. He does not understand that we live in a globalized world where we are OBLIGED to live together. This is not a naive statement but a fact. If more foreigners come to a country it will become MULTICULTURAL by default. There is nothing you can do about it. Even if you forced people to wipe out their culture and identity, it would fail and cause strife. Contrary to what you may believe, nationalism is the root of all social evil. Patriotism is considered by some as different. Patriotism means a belonging to a community NOT as nationalism points out, a situation where my group is better than yours.
Finns have become more favorable to foreigners. See the latest Magdalena Jaakkola study. What you will read is quite revealing.
Another factor that people such as Halla-aho and the blogger do is that they claim how bad a certain group is and give unrealistic solutions. You cannot kick out people from Finland because “you do not agree with their culture.” Smart people who debate give realistic solutions to a problem — not ones inflated with nationalism and populism.
March 17, 2009 at 6:08 am
-”Incorrect. It should work under the framework of the law. What you are saying is that we accept you as long as you adapt our cultural ways. You speak generally because you do not understand yourself how this works in practice. So, I wait, your response on this one.”
Guess what is the foundation of law…
CULTURE!
That is why there are as many laws and their variations as there are countries in the world, and even more.
Laws are principles of culture codified.
But that does not END there. CULTURE defines our everyday life.
In your rather imbecilic little mind, you think that foreigner who does not respect Finnish culture should be treated like person who does and acts according to Finnish culture.
It is flat out idiocy.
If you do not respect and obey Finnish cultural principles, you are not treated as a Finn.
Issue here is not the law. Respecting it is absolute.
But succeeding in society. Immigrant must accept that their cultural values are not accepted here the way they are at home. Finland has it’s own culture and way of doing everything.
It does not matter if spitting someone in the face is highest form of respect in your culture. Here it is not. And in Finland, only Finnish interpretation is accepted.
Multiculturalism is failure because it assumes everyone knows everything about every other culture. It is highest form of stupidity.
I have no clue what some Zambian tribe passes for a culture, not have I interest to know. If member of that tribe comes to Finland, I will judge him/her according to my NATIVE culture. If he fails to adhere to it, I treat him/her like I would treat any Finn who disrespects me.
That is the issue of your often whined “racism”. It is racism of you and other immigrants. Refusal to accept that ways that worked at home no longer work. Refusal to LEARN how Finnish society does things, and then do things properly in Finnish society.
Only imbecile like you, Enrique, expects that immigrants who are unable to make good impression on potential employer will ever be employed. First they must learn how these things are done in Finland. Adjust to Finnish culture.
THEN they are hired, because they know how to act, what to write in their CV, what not to write and how to speak.
That requires learning Finnish culture and adjusting yourself to it.
By the way, Imbecileque. Your BELIEF is irrelevant. You have NEVER proven anything you claim about multiculturalism. All you have to offer are your beliefs.
You are free to believe that multiculturalism works. Until you prove it by showing society which works as well or better as comparable monocultural societies… It is worth crap. You can believe with all your heart that moon is cheese, but it does not make it so.
See, that is difference between belief and fact. One is proven, other is not.
Rape statistics everywhere where certain cultural group is settled through immigration proves that your claims are load of shit.
Multiculturalims does not work, because cultures do not have identical values and principles.
Either there is conflict and eventual war, or SOMEONE must yield their cultural norms. And that damn sure won’t be us Finns in our country.
March 17, 2009 at 6:11 am
Maybe, but the it is still WE who decide what is legal in our country and what is not. For example discrimination on religious basis is illegal. We have decided it so. In Sweden a taxi driver refused to drive a man to church. That is multiculturalism. here you drive the man to church or mosque or gay club or you loose your taxi licence. And you cannot refuse seeing eye dogs. That is equality – not multiculturalism.
Ummm… read the Helsingin Sanomat today.
March 17, 2009 at 6:20 am
And why should we “respect” these peoples? What sould we “learn” from them? What can they “teach” us?
Yes, and that is why multiculturalism is bad as it segregates people into ghettoes where they become members of their “group” and not work for the whole society.
If there is a group who have a hard time getting themselves integrated and need much resources and a group that has it very easy to integrate, would it not be intelligent to restrict the amount of people having a hard time from coming to the country, so we can use the litle resources we have to integrate efficiently, rather than abandon these people into ghettoes and become a problem as in other countries? The resources are limited, and youyr solution is just to bring in more illiterate uneducated people who cannot come in terms living within a western society and demand the right to live as they do in those poor countries with no human rights as its “multiculturalism”.
And the question is not that we would not agree with their culture – the question is what are these people doing here if they do not agree with *our* culture?
March 17, 2009 at 6:24 am
In Tibet you show your tongue as a hello, and clap your hands to ward off evil spirits.
March 17, 2009 at 6:27 am
“NEW YORK (CNN) — The founder of an upstate New York TV station aimed at countering Muslim stereotypes has been arrested on suspicion of killing his wife, who was beheaded, authorities said.”
Very effective battle against stereotypes, don’t you agree?
March 17, 2009 at 6:41 am
The issue here is that for somebody to be able to “teach” they have to have a higher knowlege. For something to be “taught” the subject has to be something worth learning.
The dogma is “Finns need to be taught multiculturalism”
The question is
a) Who claims to be “better than us” to teach us anything? (pro Jante laws)
b) Where do we see this subject is worth learning?
I’m still waiting examples of a working multicultural society that is more advanced than ours where we can learn from and ask colonial masters to teach us ignorant natives in the ways of civilization.
March 17, 2009 at 7:56 am
“If you think that your belief is based upon reason, you will support it by argument, rather than by persecution, and will abandon it if the argument goes against you. But if your belief is based on faith, you will realize that argument is useless and will therefore result to force either in the form of persecution or by stunting and distorting the minds of the young in what is called ‘education’.” – Bertrand Russell
And i quote that blog i told you to read.
“Tästä huolimatta kontaktihypoteesin kaltaiset lähtökohdat pysyvät edelleen laajalti kannatettuina ja siteerattuina; Vieraita karkeasti määritettäviä ihmisryhmiä (kuten muslimeja) koskeva epäluuloisuus johtuu ennakkoluuloista, ei esimerkiksi pohdituista tutkimustietoon pohjaavista käsityksistä. Ennakkoluuloisuus perustuu siksi tiedon puutteeseen ja oikean tiedon vastustamiseen. Vaihtoehtoisesti on kyse vääristyneestä tunnekehyksestä, joka johtuu omakohtaisen kokemuksen puuttumisesta. Kontakti vieraan ryhmän edustajien kanssa auttaa väärän asenteen muuttumista. Ehtoina on käsitteen kehittäneen Gordon Allportin (s. 1897 – k. 1967) mukaan kuitenkin ”ryhmien välisen kontaktin riittävän pitkä kesto, sen tapahtuminen statukseltaan samantasoisten henkilöiden välillä sekä lainsäädännön samanaikainen tuki kontaktijärjestelyille (esim. integroidulle koulutukselle)”.
Muslimeja, Eurooppaa ja kanta-eurooppalaisten asenteita koskevien mittausten pohjalta, kontaktihypoteesin edellytysten vaikutus on ollut täysin päinvastainen. Epäluuloisuus on lisääntynyt juuri niillä alueilla, niissä kaupungeissa ja kaupunginosissa, joihin muslimimaahanmuuttajia on asettunut eniten. Tällaisella empiirisellä tiedolla ei kuitenkaan ole ohimenevää merkityksettömyyttään suurempaa arvoa liturgistiselle monikulttuurikolle. Informaatio on väärää, jos se ei tue informaation edelle asettuvaa oikeaa vastausta, tai vaihtoehtoisesti informaation tulkitsemisen parametrit ovat virheellisesti asetetut, ja keskustelu tuleekin kääntää niihin.”
Somehow reminds about you..
March 17, 2009 at 9:52 am
–I’m still waiting examples of a working multicultural society that is more advanced than ours where we can learn from and ask colonial masters to teach us ignorant natives in the ways of civilization.
What yardstick do you use to measure such “advancement?”
March 17, 2009 at 11:41 am
What do YOU use as yardstick for your claim that multicultural society is better?
March 17, 2009 at 11:45 am
I do not use such yardsticks. Societies are classified on a case-by-case basis. One of these are human rights, for example. But you should know by know that I do not go around giving ethnocentric/nationalistic statements about what country is better than the other one. Countries and societies are different, full stop.
March 17, 2009 at 6:06 pm
Exactly. So Finland is Finland, and theres no need to copy any other country.
I’d suggest you read, if you haven’t read “Diversity and Community in the 21st Century” by Robert D. Putnam, who supposedly is one of the leading “multiculturalists”. However even he had to confess to the reality of the matter.
His findings on the downsides of diversity have also posed a challenge for Putnam, a liberal academic whose own values put him squarely in the pro-diversity camp. Suddenly finding himself the bearer of bad news, Putnam has struggled with how to present his work.
Just too bad Enrique.
March 17, 2009 at 7:52 pm
I have not read this book but are you certain that he blames the lack of civic participation in the community and government only to cultural diversity? Doesn’t he mention other factors such as distrust in government, women entering the workforce etc?
It seems that you do not understand that societies cannot live in zoos. They cannot block out cultural and other types of interaction with people from other cultures. Your idea of so-called “monocultural” societies being happy and crime-free is a myth. In first place, there is no such thing as a monocultural society and second how do you measure happiness? Sorry to disappoint you again, DeTant.
March 18, 2009 at 5:29 am
Women entering workforce is irrelevant, as it is not limited to multicultural societies. (unless you mean that woman working is anathema to some cultures who will cause problems reducing local trust through that)
He has compared societies of similar status and found that ones with more different cultures have less trust.
Like I have explained to you. We trust what we understand and anticipate. Foreign cultures and people following their code of conduct are not predictable. You cannot trust something you cannot predict.
It seems you do not understand concept of monocultural society Enrique. Or that NONE of us who oppose multiculturalism have said that our culture will not change.
What we say is that WE, NATIVES, REPRESENTATIVES OF CULTURE, decide how OUR culture changes if it changes. Not you foreign fruitcakes. You have no business telling us what our culture or society should be like.
And Finland is society built on Finnish culture. Thus you can either adjust to it and live on Finnish terms, or f*** off. When in Rome, do as Romans do. Do not assume they will act like Gauls.
Monocultural societies ARE happier AND safer than multicultural overall. Multicultural societies have EVERY problem of monocultural society. But they top it off with crime and problems stemming from cultural conflict.
What you and other immigrants have to understand, is that in Finland things are done the Finnish way. You will never become Finn. But you can learn to adjust your own cultural norms to fit into this society and it’s limitations. It means you immigrants have to adjust to society, not expect society adjust to you.
March 18, 2009 at 9:34 am
–Like I have explained to you. We trust what we understand and anticipate. Foreign cultures and people following their code of conduct are not predictable. You cannot trust something you cannot predict.
Odd.. This question was done by DeTant or is it his double (?) responding? You exaggerate predictability. Those who are unpredictable are members of our society who are in asylums.
March 18, 2009 at 9:38 am
–And Finland is society built on Finnish culture. Thus you can either adjust to it and live on Finnish terms, or f*** off. When in Rome, do as Romans do. Do not assume they will act like Gauls.
Finland is a multicultural society in which Finnish culture plays a big role. People from other cultures are not required to adopt all of its components. You should know that.
–Monocultural societies ARE happier AND safer than multicultural overall.
This is only a perception that has nothing to do with fact. I asked you a while back: how do you measure happiness? Please elaborate.
March 18, 2009 at 10:58 am
-”Odd.. This question was done by DeTant but not it is his double (?) responding? You exaggerate predictability. Those who are unpredictable are members of our society who are in asylums.”
And I have, in my own person, earlier, in different thread, responded that people do not trust what they cannot predict.
And people of totally different cultural background are not predictable, as they operate on what can be totally opposite set of values and principles.
-”Finland is a multicultural society in which Finnish culture plays a big role. People from other cultures are not required to adopt all of its components. You should know that.”
Finland is monocultural society where Finnish culture defines limits of acceptable behavior. Representatives of EVERY culture must adjust their behavior to fit these norms.
As I have said, if it is forbidden in Finnish culture. It is forbidden for everyone else as well, regardless of what their culture says.
If it is permitted in Finnish culture. Regardless of what different culture says it is permitted.
If everyone knows what are the rules by which interaction takes place, then everyone is happy. Thus, monocultural society where ONE culture defines framework of interaction. All others are subject to that one culture.
-”This is only a perception that has nothing to do with fact. I asked you a while back: how do you measure happiness? Please elaborate.”
Through study.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/happiness_formula/5012478.stm
“It is an uncomfortable conclusion from happiness research data perhaps – but multicultural communities tend to be less trusting and less happy. ”
There you go.
March 18, 2009 at 8:27 pm
–And I have, in my own person, earlier, in different thread, responded that people do not trust what they cannot predict.
Certainly there is always “fear of the unknown” but you cannot claim that people from other cultures behave unpredictably to the extent that they are a danger to our society. When a person’s behavior is unpredictable, he/she usually ends up in an insane asylum. I do not see whole cultures being locked up in Europe because their behavior is so unpredictable.
–Representatives of EVERY culture must adjust their behavior to fit these norms.
Let’s word it in the following fashion: every culture — including the Finns — have accept that EQUAL respect is vital in order for society to develop and grow.
March 18, 2009 at 8:31 pm
–“It is an uncomfortable conclusion from happiness research data perhaps – but multicultural communities tend to be less trusting and less happy. ”
I have not acquainted myself fully on what the study considers “happiness.” It sounds a bit fishy. However, there is an interesting point in the story:
Trevor Phillips believes getting it right is vital: “We need to respect people’s ethnicity but also give them, at some point in the week, an opportunity to meet and want to be with people with whom they have something in common that isn’t defined by their ethnicity.”
“If we can find a moment, an idea, an activity which takes us out of our ethnicity and connects us to other people of different ethnicities and if only for an hour in a week then I think we can crack this problem.”
I could get this to mean a lot of things: get rid of racism and offer people from different ethnic groups the chance to interact AS HUMAN BEINGS without any ethnic labels to and from. I believe racism and two-way ethnic distance and ethnocentric behavior are the main culprits.
March 18, 2009 at 9:16 pm
And thats exact opposite of multiculturalism, multiculturalism wants ethnic groups and separation and different rulent to different ethnic groups.
March 18, 2009 at 10:06 pm
One thing I do not understand, Onkko, is why are against cultural diversity when, in turn, you think Finns have that right but minorities do not. Are you that concerned or is it that you feel threatened?
March 18, 2009 at 10:20 pm
Minorities have exactly same rights and responsibilities than majority, thats all i want.
Currently and by multiculturalism that doesnt happen. I want everyone to be equal and none in “special position”.
Minorities wont threat my position but they threat my safety if things go like in every other european country and i dont want that.
March 19, 2009 at 5:52 am
-”Certainly there is always “fear of the unknown” but you cannot claim that people from other cultures behave unpredictably to the extent that they are a danger to our society. When a person’s behavior is unpredictable, he/she usually ends up in an insane asylum. I do not see whole cultures being locked up in Europe because their behavior is so unpredictable.”
No, cultural differences make people unpredictable. Or if you want we can use term “unreadable”. Because their actions and values are unknown in purpose.
Same as listening to language you do not know. It might carry tone which hints what is being going on but since you have no idea how to “read” it, you cannot understand what is going on.
THAT is the issue of cultural conflict. THAT is why multicultural society is failure. People lack one, clear set of norms and rules which would enable them to understand meaning of another persons words and actions.
-”Let’s word it in the following fashion: every culture — including the Finns — have accept that EQUAL respect is vital in order for society to develop and grow.”
And every cultural NOT native must yield to local native culture and accept it’s norms to be above their own.
Besides, there is no issue on FINNS respecting others. But issue is that IMMIGRANTS refuse to respect US. You scream of racism but refuse vehemently from learning to understand and adjust to OUR culture. Which is the norm here. You demand us natives to learn your culture and adjust to it.
Not paying attention to minor detail that there is one Finnish culture in the world, but dozens upon dozens of other cultures. Making your demand idiotic in nature.
Nobody has said immigrants have to abandon their culture. In fact, I have repeatedly said that immigrants cannot become Finns, because culture is not something you just change like coat.
What I am saying is that immigrants must accept that their cultural norms are irrelevant here. Everything is judged and works according to ONE cultural set of norms. Finnish.
Demanding that we natives must do like your culture demands, to show “respect” is showing how little you immigrants respect Finnish culture.
March 19, 2009 at 4:23 pm
I have an anecdote over this.
Some Estonians were debating over some issue with Finns. The Finns got upset and wanted to call the police as the Estonians were “threatening to kill them”.
The “cut throat” sign with a finger across the throat means in Estonia “I’m fed up/ lets quit the crap/ stop bullshitting”. In Finland that means “You’re dead”.
And its not the Finns’ “problem” to know these things, as theres millions of cultures with different body language and we cannot learn them all here. If I go to Estonia or wherever I need to pay attention to the body language, as I can’t assume they understand mine. I can sign “he’s drunk as a monkey” in Estonian – but I can’t assume anyone in Finland would understand it.
March 19, 2009 at 4:26 pm
I wouldn’t say the immigrant ghettoes being insane asylums, but how do you explain white flight? I mean there is a reason for it. Have you seen the BBC documentary “All White in Barking”?
March 19, 2009 at 4:31 pm
In Finland you need to earn your respect. You don’t demand what you have not earned. You start as a nobody and a nothing, and work your way up the ladder to become a somebody and something. Your own actions make you what you are, so if you don’t show you are worth respecting you can only expect not being respected.
March 19, 2009 at 4:46 pm
Yes, you can also lose your respect among minorities. In your system of thought, it would take eons to reach a position of equality in society. So, no thanks,
Tiwaz, I mean DeTant.March 19, 2009 at 4:56 pm
Its our country, the people choose to come here out of their own free will. Nobody forces them here, they’re free to settle in or they are as free to leave if they don’t like it. If they want to live in their own home they can do so, we’ll continue to live in our own home as we choose to.
March 19, 2009 at 5:03 pm
And who exactly cares of their respect?
Thats what Finns have done, we do work for a living, but apparently you think you want everything from the welfare office for free.
March 19, 2009 at 5:33 pm
Regarding the language issue, I think Deva would also get Tiwaz’s respect in Finland:
Daily Mail
“I’m standing up for Britain”, says Sri Lankan postmaster who won’t serve migrants who won’t learn English
There’s a huge Union Flag flying proudly outside Deva Kumarasiri’s house and it’s been there so long the edges are tattered and torn.
Nearby, another one flutters from the back of his favourite Land Rover as he drives to work as the local cornershop postmaster.
In case it’s not immediately clear, the Sri Lankan-born father of two – who fulfilled a dream to come to this country 17 years ago and took citizenship to make his life here – is proud to be British.
Deva Kumarasiri
So proud, in fact, that he’s insisting all his fellow immigrants embrace our culture with the same enthusiasm as he does. Yesterday Mr Kumarasiri, who
taught his two daughters every word of the National Anthem, introduced a controversial regime at his post office counter.
If his customers can’t be bothered to learn English, he tells them, they must go away and learn it before he serves them.
His bold stand against nonintegration has sent a shudder of political correctness down whatever spine the post office has these days, and infuriated some local do-gooders who accused him of inciting division among the community.
But a few minutes spent with the 40-year-old Liberal Democrat councillor are about all it takes to establish his motives are pure – and that he’s driven only by a passion for the country he loves.
‘Nobody stands up for anything in Britain any more,’ he said.
‘It’s the best country in the world as far as I’m concerned, but the great country I once called Great Britain has changed a lot since I came here.
‘All I’m doing is telling people if they want to live in Britain, be British. Don’t boo our soldiers when they come home from Iraq. Don’t live your life without embracing our culture. Don’t stay here without making any effort to learn the language. And if you don’t want to be British, go home.’
Mr Kumarasiri runs the post office inside a shop in Sneinton, an inner city area of Nottingham that boasts a diverse ethnic mix.
He became so weary of customers expecting to be served
without uttering a word of English that he took to telling them to go away and learn the language. It’s not exactly a ban, he says, because they keep coming back anyway.
But he tells those who make no effort to speak English they will need an interpreter if he is to give them a proper standard of service.
‘Our laws are written in English; our culture is chronicled in English. How can anybody understand that if they can’t understand English? I tell them if they don’t speak the language and they can’t be bothered to learn, then don’t bother coming here.’
Mr Kumarasiri, whose wife is a nurse, likes to call his regular customers ‘duck’ and ‘dear’, following local tradition.
‘The fabric of the nation begins to unravel if we don’t all speak the same language. When I left Sri Lanka I left behind that country’s culture, customs and language. I have done my utmost ever since to be part of this country’s culture. Far too many people come here and expect Britain to change to suit them.
Deva Kumarasiri
Roots: Deva growing up in Sri Lanka, where he left 17 years ago
‘An Asian woman came in here yesterday and I insisted she spoke to me in English. She replied she preferred to speak in her mother tongue, but I told her Britain was now her motherland and she should speak English.’
As we talk in his shop, an Eastern European woman silently presents a £299 benefit cheque at the counter to be cashed. A Pakistani man – berated earlier by Mr Kumarasiri for not speaking English, smiles as he struggles with ‘please’ and ‘thank you’.
‘I decided to make this stand because I think too many Britons are afraid to talk out,’ he explains. ‘If they insist on everyone speaking English they are afraid of being branded a racist.’
Mr Kumarasiri grew up in a village outside the Sri Lankan capital of Colombo and learned English at school. He always dreamed of coming to England and worked in a garage, warehouse, shops and another post office before taking over this one in Sneinton.
He met his wife, Durga, here and both his daughters, Shahani, ten, and Heshini, eight, were born here.
He took a ‘stupid citizenship test’ at which he was asked questions such as what age he needed to be to buy cigarettes in Britain, and holds a British passport.
Back in his native Sri Lanka, he said, people were still proud to be associated with their former colonial ruler. ‘Still we have the pride that Britain left behind,’ he said. ‘The laws are still there, the schools are still there. The kids have courtesy. They have discipline. Here, all that is gone. Let’s bring it back.’
March 19, 2009 at 6:08 pm
Or as Tarja Halonen said, Finns fear foreigners because they incorrectly believe they will take over the country. Many of your comments reinforce that.
–And who exactly cares of their respect?
Some of your comments are so arrogant. But hey, I would too if I spoke behind semi-anonymity. Lots of people know who you are. I know who you are.
March 19, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Yes, DeTant, you are right: you too have the choice to leave if you do not like Finland. Nobody is keeping you here
March 19, 2009 at 7:13 pm
Puhutaampa sitten kunnioituksesta, vaihdoin oikean nimeni tuohon kun se kerran tärkeää on.
Minä en kunnioita ketään joka ei kunnioitusta ole ansainnut, suhtaudun neutraalisti ihmisiin joita en tunne ja se että on maahanmuuttaja ei ole mikään meriitti.
Sinua en kunnioita koska halveksut suomalaisuutta ja suomalaisia aivan estoitta, kukkahattua kunnioitan koska hän sanoo asiat kuten ne on eikä kiertele poliittisen korreukden suossa josta ei löydy perusteluja vaan ainoastaan toiveita ja haaveita.
Suomessa kunnioitus ansaitaan, sitä ei pyydetä.
Ja mitä vitun väliä sillä on kuka kukakin on, etkö pysty käsittelemään mielipiteitä mielipiteinä ja osoittamaan ne vääräksi… Ai niin, et pysty.
Eli hyökkäät henkilöä kohtaan selittämällä että hänen mielipiteet olisivat jotenkin arvottomampia koska ne on kerrottu nimimerkillä.
Ymmärrätkö ollenkaan että nykyisessä tilassa missä sanan ja mielipiteen vapaus on on todella vaarallista kertoa rehellinen mielipide maahanmuutosta ja sen vaikutuksista.
Ja kuten kukkahattu sanoi niin kunnioitus ansaitaan ja se on vieraiden homma saada se kunnioitus ei isännän.
March 19, 2009 at 8:14 pm
For those who do not know Finnish, Hannu says that he does not respect me because my “insults” against Finns have no limits. He praises DeTant Blomhat because he “speaks the truth,” even though I would never stoop that low in insulting any group.
The statement you made, in my opinion, shows the basis of the problem. You talk about how evil “political correctness” is and how some can insult immigrants as “speaking the truth.” What you do not comprehend is that Finland, and the EU, is a free region. We have freedom of speech and we have laws that protect people’s rights be it the majority or minorities. Moreover, I am telling things “as I see them” without falling in that dreaded trap you speak of called “political correctness.” If racism/xenophobia were NOT a problem in Finland and if it WERE not addressed in a sensible way as in this blog has done, I wonder why thousands have found their way to Migrant Tales? Why do you even bother to comment if all we do here is make fun of Finns. Your attitudes of immigrants is what soils this country’s name. I allow you to comment here because I believe in free speech as well as other readers can see what you think.
March 20, 2009 at 10:24 am
I wonder whether Detant Blomhat, Tiwaz, Internettnetsi, etc. should speak on the behalf of the whole country. Honestly, I’ve met many Finns, and the vast majority of them believe Finland has to change its attitudes towards different cultures and foreigners. I don’t mean your opinions are invalid. Far from that. It is just that I find it weird when you come up with things like “What WE FINNS want, not what you outsiders want.”
March 20, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Hi Mateus, thank you for your comment. That is the point: there are many Finns that do not see matters as the people you have mentioned. I believe they are a minority. Not only do they talk about “WE FINNS” but their whole agenda is nothing more than negative, insulting and does not contribute anything to the ongoing debate. How can you debate anything with a person who calls you an “idiot” or “retarded” because you bring on the table a topic that needs airing. Fortunately, the majority of the people who take part in this blog are level-headed and understand the issues.
March 26, 2009 at 9:36 am
Multiculturalism is only a theory that encourages interest in many cultures within a society rather than in only a mainstream culture. So being a theory it is not a fully proven fact.
I would be one who sees Multiculturalism as a natural process though I am not obviously an anthropologist nor do I have any fervent interest, but I groove with the debate as best I can.
I just wanted to say (I have said it before) America would be a prominent example of multiculturalism.
The native American as you know ended up on reservations, and went into the new cultures history books as the red savage.
Without being too serious for a moment you have to admit it is funny in the light of just what culture may be (plunder, murder, rape and enslavement) However.
Without laboring my point, I feel you do not teach Multiculturalism to ordinary folk. Interest in the many cultures within a society is usually generated on its own steam or quality, and its ability to attract.
It is either of fascinating interest or like the American “cow-boy” culture: “persuasive.”
To keep Multiculturalism alive and well; (so to speak) protect minorities, you need to ensure equality in society. This can only be done by taking an active part in the political process.
Sure you can join your local Multiculturalism club in your local town, but unless you apply political pressure on the appropriate intuitions to (take responsibility) implement their policies properly: put pressure on business, the private and public (government sponsored) sector to hire and train people.