A survey by the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights (FRA) does not give a very encouraging report on the experiences of ethnic minority groups concerning discrimination and racist crime.
For a more comprehensive view of the report click here.
In Finland, it revealed that one in three Somali men and women in the Greater Helsinki area stated that they were victims of racially motived crimes during the past 12 months.
Writes Helsingin Sanomat: “When it comes to treatment at a bank or a shop, Finland’s Somalis emerged among the groups most discriminated against. However, compared with other countries’ minorities the Finnish Somalis were more informed of competent authorities who could give them support or advice. Yet some 69% of the interviewed Finnish Somalis said that they did not know of any organization that could offer them support services to victims of discrimination.”
The FRA survey, which is the first of its kind, is long-overdue and welcome. It is a wake up call for policy makers and for those who think that racism is a minor problem in Finland. It is, I believe, a much bigger problem that some would want to admit.
Why is racism an issue? Because it is a slap in the face to our values and society.
April 28, 2009 at 5:58 am
And they would never state anything but truth.
Let’s not forget that with current tradition of multicultural political correctness, racism has become the most usual tool of racism by minorities.
Just yell “Racism!” and everyone will cower in fear and let you have your way.
How did FRA confirm that claims of these interviewed people were actually correct?
April 28, 2009 at 7:25 am
–Let’s not forget that with current tradition of multicultural political correctness, racism has become the most usual tool of racism by minorities.
There is nothing politically correct about racism. You say that it is a “tool” by minorities because you do not acknowledge the problem. Moreover, we have to listen to what others think and not dwell in what we think others should think about us.
April 28, 2009 at 7:52 am
-”There is nothing politically correct about racism.”
Oh yes there is. The politically correct thinking that whenever immigrant/member of minority screams racism it is true and valid.
Instead of result of their own inability to cope with society around them.
-”Moreover, we have to listen to what others think and not dwell in what we think others should think about us.”
How about immigrants listening to Finns and understanding how Finnish society works?
Instead of that, they live in Finland as if they were in Somalia. Attempt doomed for failure since Finland is NOT Somalia.
And when Somalian way fails, they scream racism.
And Enrique rushes to the scene in his righteous quest against everything Finnish demanding that Finns must appease immigrants so that immigrants can live in Somalian way in Finland. With Finns forfeiting their culture in interest of whatever immigrant group wants to whine today.
April 28, 2009 at 8:46 am
http://bitsandpieces.us/2008/11/12/computers-are-racist/
April 28, 2009 at 8:49 am
–Oh yes there is. The politically correct thinking that whenever immigrant/member of minority screams racism it is true and valid. Instead of result of their own inability to cope with society around them.
I’m sorry, but this sounds like men who accuse women of provoking rape because of the way they dress. Racism is a crime, it exists and should be taken seriously as any other crime that takes place in society. By the tone of your words, you are belittling racism.
–How about immigrants listening to Finns and understanding how Finnish society works?
Good point. I agree. But what about if “that society” excludes and discriminates and gives them little to no chance to integrate?
April 28, 2009 at 10:12 am
-”Racism is a crime, it exists and should be taken seriously as any other crime that takes place in society. By the tone of your words, you are belittling racism.”
Am I? Or putting it in proper context. Again, I point out that this whole “huge revelation” of yours depends on CLAIMS of IMMIGRANTS.
And it has been shown that these days many immigrants use claims of racism as easy, one-size-fits-all solution to every problem they have.
They did not get a job (despite being unqualified)? Racism is the reason.
Girl did not go out with them? Racism is the reason.
Some Finn acted in a way which is perfectly normal in Finnish culture… Racism, Finns should know NOT to act according to their own culture in their own country.
Immigrants cry racism like that boy in a story cried wolf.
-”Good point. I agree. But what about if “that society” excludes and discriminates and gives them little to no chance to integrate?”
They are getting all the chances. What else should be done? Ah yes, your patent solution for everything… Finns must change their culture to fit all other cultures!
Immigrants HAVE chance to integrate. It is THEIR fault if they fail to do so. If they do not get jobs or do not get anywhere because they fail to integrate, it is THEIR fault they end up excluded. They failed to learn the ways of the land.
Solution to immigrant problems in huge majority of cases is simple.
1. Immigrant learns language (do not presume to obtain job or anything as without language you are useless).
2. Immigrant learns local culture (do not presume to make good impression on potential employer or average person if you do not understand principles of local interaction)
3. Immigrant learns to apply those two things to average life. Speaking language and understanding rules and principles of local social interaction.
4. Immigrant succeeds.
It is not Finns who must adjust, but immigrants. They have to accept that Finns will not change their cultural norms and principles to fit immigrants. Immigrants must learn to adjust their own.
April 28, 2009 at 10:33 am
“I’m sorry, but this sounds like men who accuse women of provoking rape because of the way they dress.”
Like immigrants in europe and australia?
April 28, 2009 at 11:45 am
Before you blamed the Muslims and now you put all the immigrants in the same boat. You cannot stigmatize a whole group of people if some are misfits. You cannot even it do it for Finns.
April 28, 2009 at 11:58 am
If disproportionate number of them are misfits, it warrants bad reputation for whole group.
I for one have never singled out muslims as only troublemaking immigrant group, just the most troublemaking.
As proven by rape statistics.
April 28, 2009 at 12:05 pm
Enrique doesnt seem to understand that in muslim cultures womans who arent dressed in trashbags are valid targets for rape.
April 28, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Sorry Tiwaz you list of solutions are quite ok but you forgot two very important things.
-Respect. When you move to another country you have to respect it. You have to acknowledge that you have moved, so it won’t be the same. If you are used to practices considered normal in you “culture” but barbaric in your new home you will need to accept this and NOT demand changes to accommodate your “cultural background”. You should realize that you haven’t been invited to the new country, you are going by your own will, so if there is not suitable for yours aspiration, just piss off. That my friend is called respect and it’s vital…
-Alto-critic. Look at yourself honestly and then look at the new home you have chosen to go to. See if you really are up to the challenge of being a productive member of that society or if you’ll be hanging on the dole. Check the professional skills from whom you just lost that job opportunity before shout that you’ve been “discriminated”. Be honest with yourself then with the society around you. Tiwaz that’s also key. I can honestly say I tried and it did work like a charm.
Without those two I don’t see how someone can prevail in life. As you know we have in this very same forum, sometime ago, someone who probably speaks very good Finnish but yet was failure and was spreading his anger towards everyone…
“It is a wake up call for policy makers and for those who think that racism is a minor problem in Finland. It is, I believe, a much bigger problem that some would want to admit.”
You are very right Enrique it’s a big problem, but no one dares to talk about the causes. It’s ease to trough it all on the Fins. I don’t think so, I think we are the greatest responsible for racism. The more we ignore that and keep point the finger to the Fins the worst it gets…
April 28, 2009 at 1:45 pm
-Respect. When you move to another country you have to respect it.
Very true, but it should be mutual. One thing, Tony, that you do not address in your comment is the role of identity and values of a person in a culture. That is why religion is important for you because it gives one a sense of value and common morals that strengthen solidarity. If you take that away by force or it is lost, you have a dysfunctional community with all the social problems we need not get into. Durkheim and others called it anomie.
So, the big challenge of society is how to mold different values so that they can integrate the person and make him feel a part of the grand project of Finland.
I think the biggest problem of cultural misunderstanding is ignorance. You are a learned man who travels and works in different countries and must understand that and be very adroit at it. But take a person who comes to a country, cannot find work and lives faraway from his culture, which is being deteriorated by values that are foreign to him. It is a ruinous path.
Now we can see where some of the social problems in our modern society come from and why they are so difficult to solve.
April 28, 2009 at 2:20 pm
Did I say “disproportionate number” are misfits? I don’t think so.
April 28, 2009 at 3:27 pm
“One thing, Tony, that you do not address in your comment is the role of identity and values of a person in a culture”
This is absolutely vital for the person. With this we are nothing…
“If you take that away by force or it is lost, you have a dysfunctional community with all the social problems we need not get into.”
Absolutely I couldn’t agree with you more… That’s why I moved to Finland, not elsewhere. Although I disagree with some aspects of the Finnish way of life, binge drinking for instance, this very same life is what I want for me and my family. And I’m totally please with what I’m getting.
Yes religious is something important to me, that is why I didn’t move to an Islamic or Hindu or Buddhist country. I moved to a Christian country.
You know I work for a giant multinational company. I could ask transference to anywhere in this planet. As soon as this project ends I’ll be going back to Finland to live a Finnish life. Some are saying that the company is looking for project managers to go to India and paying a considerable amount of money… No thanks. I don’t want to live an Indian life, I want to live a Finnish life… If I go I’d be just like those I criticise, complaining and hating just about everything. No thanks…
You are totally right in all you have said, just that it’s the immigrants that should see what kind of life they want and then make a decision that fits better their wishes and aspirations.
April 28, 2009 at 3:42 pm
Just to complement what I was saying…
My wife loves winter sports. Ice skating and skiing in particularly. As soon as my children learned how to walk my wife was already buying skates for them. During the winter she goes skiing or ice skating almost every day.
I’ve never been to California but I understand that it’s an amazing place, so if one day we decide to move there we’ll need to consider what we are doing before we go.
One aspect will be the winter. She has to accept that she can’t just open the door and go skiing whenever she wants. To do she’ll have to take a plane and go somewhere else. In case she doesn’t want to give up this kind of life, California is not a place for our family. Pure and simple. If we go there without sort this out first she’ll be unhappy, no matter how wonderful the place may be…
April 28, 2009 at 5:24 pm
I think Tiwas misses the point when he asks: “How did FRA confirm that claims of these interviewed people were actually correct?” The survey was about how much immigrants and ethnic minorities experience racism, not how many complaints to the police they have made, or how many cases actually go to court.
Second, Tiwas is trying to discredit the results by claiming immigrants use racism as an excuse to get what they want. I wonder what benefits they have got by lying in an anonymous questionnaire??
April 28, 2009 at 6:46 pm
Hi Platypus, thank you for your post and welcome to Migrant Tales. Platypus is the only mammal that lays eggs. You make good point: the survey is about how ethnic minorities and immigrants experience racism. It is not what the majority culture thinks but how they experience this social ill. I am happy that more of these surveys are coming to light. I’ll leave your second question for Tiwaz to answer.
April 28, 2009 at 8:34 pm
Yes, California is a state that has everything. If you move to LA there is Big Bear Lake, where you can downhill ski in winter. If your wife wants colder weather there is always northern California/San Francisco, Oakland etc.. Southern California is warmer and driver.
April 28, 2009 at 8:38 pm
Isn’t that a great thing, Tony, that we have the right to make choices. But then again, even if you moved to India, you would be dealing with people with MIT and London School of Economics degrees. That was my experience in Colombia, where I worked as bureau chief for two years. I had very little contact with the so-called locals and most of my contacts were people who had received their education from abroad. So we never had any problems in communicating even if some did not like everything I wrote. They were some of the best times I spent in my life. My wife, however, did not like Bogotá.
April 28, 2009 at 10:42 pm
“Second, Tiwas is trying to discredit the results by claiming immigrants use racism as an excuse to get what they want. I wonder what benefits they have got by lying in an anonymous questionnaire??”
They explain their own fucking up with it “its not my fault but racism!”. “I didnt go for school like finns and now i dont get a job, RACISM!” “I demand fucked up things in workplace and im first to laid off RACISM!” “Clerk in pharmasy didnt want to break law even if i tried to pribe him RACISM!” (thats one i saw myself, clerk was racist because he didnt sell double amount of medicine)
They just explain everything with racims, simple as that.
April 29, 2009 at 5:03 am
-”Very true, but it should be mutual. One thing, Tony, that you do not address in your comment is the role of identity and values of a person in a culture. That is why religion is important for you because it gives one a sense of value and common morals that strengthen solidarity. If you take that away by force or it is lost, you have a dysfunctional community with all the social problems we need not get into. Durkheim and others called it anomie.”
What grants Finland solidarity and common morals?
FINNISH CULTURE!
As long as you live by it, it’s morals and principles… You are far more accepted than guy next to you who tries to live as if he was in Hubbabubba-land.
Multiculturalism lacks that unity of morals and solidarity, because it lacks one unifying trait which would be shared by all. Multiculturalism does not have any common traits, it just tries to claim that all cultures get along.
And when that fails, so does multiculturalism. Which is, in case you did not notice Enrique, every goddamn time.
Cultures do not share common morals or principles. That is why in functional country there is one culture which sets the rules for everyone and all other cultures are subject to that culture.
I call this monocultural society, as only one culture determines boundaries of acceptable behavior. And it works!
Why? Because it creates that solidarity and unity which you yourself say to be imperative for people Enrique.
Thus, it is necessary for immigrants to adjust to Finland, not expect that their alien ways are respected here.
Intternetnetsi explained my point regarding racism already. But let’s state it again…
FRA results are questionable because immigrants, and specially certain groups inside it, have learned to use racism as blanket cause for all their failures.
Blame is never in the immigrant, it is always racism.
To put it to extreme, for certain immigrant groups if they trip on a rock in Finland, it is fault of racist Finnish rock. Not fault of immigrant not looking where they walk.
April 29, 2009 at 6:09 am
–They explain their own fucking up with it “its not my fault but racism!”.
Neighborly behavior? Empathy for minorities? Extending a hand? Is that what you would call it?
April 29, 2009 at 7:35 am
“Racism is a crime, it exists and should be taken seriously as any other crime that takes place in society.”
What’s the sentence?
April 29, 2009 at 8:28 am
-”Neighborly behavior? Empathy for minorities? Extending a hand? Is that what you would call it?”
You mean we should give them preferential treatment, catering to their every desire so they do not feel like crying racism?
Why that is your solution to every issue?
I have no empathy for idiots who bring problems upon themselves. If you choose to jump from the bridge, don’t whine that ground is racist when it hurts.
Immigrants whine racism, but when in many cases you dig up that claim we come to conclusion that it was immigrant who was in essence “racist”. They refuse to understand that norms and rules in Finland are different from their native ones.
So when some Somali goes on the streets acting as if he was in Somalia, he is bound to end up in some kind of trouble. And after this he screams racism, while HE is one who was wrong from the start.
What you Enrique call racism, I call equal treatment. Same rules for everyone. In Finland that means you are judged by Finnish rules. If you want to live by rules of some other country, I recommend moving there.
April 29, 2009 at 8:34 am
To extrapolate…
I do not care where you come from. I expect you to behave according to Finnish cultural norms in Finland.
If you fail, I treat you like I would treat Finn who fails to respect local rules.
It is, in short, equal treatment for everyone.
Problem is, Enrique, that immigrants do not want to be treated equally. They want preferential treatment, which you so eagerly would grant them.
They do not want to learn Finnish cultural rules, and when they are treated like rude bastards they are according to Finnish norms… They scream racism!
Because in their mind, and apparently in your mind Enrique, they are above Finnish culture and should not be judged by it. Even if we are in Finland. In essence, they consider themselves above Finns.
April 29, 2009 at 8:38 am
Hi Enrique…
About India/Colombia…
That’s the whole issue here. I think that is what we have been criticizing all along, go to a country and live a life parallel to the main society. It doesn’t work for thousands in Finland it won’t work for me too in anywhere. I prefer go to a place where I can identify myself to the main culture, integrate and carry on with the life. That’s exactly what I say others should do, if Finnish culture is not appropriate for what you think is right, go somewhere else…
You talk about choice… Well everyone have a choice mate… Have a look at this.
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Young+Afghan+asylum-seekers+heading+for+Nordic+countries+through+Paris/1135245350981
Check what Mrs. Nazrullah have to say about Finland. How many European countries he’s passing through before get in there? Why not a more “tolerant” country then? Does he have a choice? BTW what he’s doing is illegal. This is called a Dublin case, but as the article explain he’ll be just fine in Finland…
Also you could check what has been reported this morning by YLE.
http://www.yle.fi/uutiset/news/2009/04/finland_tops_oecd_science_study_711356.html
“The report found that one in five 15-year-olds reach high levels of scientific proficiency in Finland and New Zealand, while that proportion was below one in 20 in Greece, Italy, Mexico, Portugal, Spain and Turkey. “
So that been said what chance do you think Mrs Nazrullah has in Finland? With his qualifications, can he find a decent job in there or the only change he will probably get is to be a cleaner? (some has complained in this forum that this is the only job a foreigner get…)
So it’s really good to have a choice, and we all have. Some makes the right one, like I’m not going to India, some make the wrong one… perhaps Mrs Nazrullah going to Finland.
About California… Well I didn’t know about that… Well every day we learn something new…
April 29, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Enrique my friend, This survey could have been very useful if wasn’t for that fact that it lacks veracity. Hidden behind anonymity and without the obligation to support the claim with facts those chaps could say anything they want.
You know… Things would be funny if they weren’t tragic. Apparently, some months ago, Yleisradio has also run a survey on their web page titled “what causes hatred towards immigrates”. At the start there were 7 options and one of them were “bad experiences with immigrants”. This option reached 82% fast, few hours later the page was modified, only 6 options were available and percentages recalculated. Guess with option has been removed?
So let the Fins tell that they have had problems with immigrants is “hate speech”, but let the immigrants tell that they have had problems with Fins is a step towards a better place… I see…
I think we have already established that many foreigners coming to Finland are “escaping a failed country” (your own words), so due to fail in this country as well. Somalis a good example of it. That been said how do we interpret those numbers?
1. Fins are really a bunch of racists and we need tougher laws and hard law enforcement.
2. Immigrants like to shout racism.
3. Immigrants who failed in Finland due complete lack of minimum educational skills have a vendetta against Fins and use any opportunity to attach them, particularly when they don’t have to prove what they are saying.
My opinion? about 10% number 1 but without the law part, about 30% of number 2 and 60% of number 3. Or there about…
You know since the beginning I’ve said who I’m, especially when someone accused me to be a Fin. I’ve always support my allegation with facts from respected news sources (conservative but respected nevertheless). You know, hide behind a wall and shout accusations is ease, prove it is a bit more complicate…
April 29, 2009 at 5:57 pm
I am surprised, Tony, how you can question the veracity of a report. There were 23,500 face-to-face interviews. With such a high sample, you start to see a trend. You have studied in university and should know that. Moreover a random sample was used.
I do not know about the YLE survey. Let’s keep that separate from the FRA study.
When you say “immigrants are mostly from a failed country,” you know that is a loaded comment. If you look at how many foreigners live permanently from failed states, the biggest groups are Somalia (4,831), Iraq (3,021) and Afghanistan (2,196). The total comes to 6,048 out of a total of 132,632. That is only about 4%! Does 4% constitute “mostly from a failed country?”
1. Finns are really a bunch of racists and we need tougher laws and hard law enforcement.
If you look at the report, one of the most interesting finds is that while racist attacks are common, a very big majority of them go unreported. Moreover:”55% of migrants and minorities surveyed by the FRA think that discrimination based on ethnic origin is widespread in their country, and 37% say that they have personally experienced discrimination in the past 12 months.” Check: http://fra.europa.eu/fraWebsite/attachments/EU-MIDIS_GLANCE_EN.pdf
Are new tougher laws the answer? I don’t think so. The results also show a thumbs down to the system. Do you trust a system that does not protect you?
2. Immigrants like to shout racism.
Then what would you call it, Tony? What is important is how they see things. True or false that is not the question. The fact is that that they see racism and that it is futile to turn to the authorities for help. That is pretty serious. Not a very good “grade” given in my opinion and shows a big failing of the system.
3. Immigrants who failed in Finland due complete lack of minimum educational skills have a vendetta against Fins and use any opportunity to attach them, particularly when they don’t have to prove what they are saying.
I think I could also disprove this one. What do you mean by “fail” and how do you know how many have a minimum education, which I guess means elementary school education(?). To start of with, there were 49,416 EU citizens living permanently in Finland in 2008. If we add the Russians (26,205) we already have 75,621 out of 132,632, or well over 50%. So I would not be too worried that they have a “vendetta” against Finns.
Isn’t it alarming to you that so many immigrants/minorities feel this way about the system?
April 29, 2009 at 6:04 pm
–I do not care where you come from. I expect you to behave according to Finnish cultural norms in Finland. If you fail, I treat you like I would treat Finn who fails to respect local rules
I do not understand why people here, or myself, is “not behaving according to Finnish cultural norms.” Oh I see… one of these “cultural norms a-la-Tiwaz” is keep your mouth shut. No one can complain in Finnish society except for Tiwaz.
April 29, 2009 at 6:04 pm
–What’s the sentence?
What’s the question?
April 29, 2009 at 9:42 pm
“I do not understand why people here, or myself, is “not behaving according to Finnish cultural norms.” Oh I see… one of these “cultural norms a-la-Tiwaz” is keep your mouth shut. No one can complain in Finnish society except for Tiwaz.”
Oh you dont understand, how new..
what about people who dont understand womans position in here, is that hard to get? thats only one.
April 29, 2009 at 9:45 pm
Kemi fight started from immigrants demeaning womens and when finnish said thats not acceptable they used force and attacked for them, finns repelled and kicked their ass. See and Hear what is happening
April 30, 2009 at 5:33 am
-”I do not understand why people here, or myself, is “not behaving according to Finnish cultural norms.” Oh I see… one of these “cultural norms a-la-Tiwaz” is keep your mouth shut. No one can complain in Finnish society except for Tiwaz.”
Hmm… Let me see. They first of all (or rather certain groups) tend to rape at disproportionate amount.
In most cases this is explained by them not figuring out that in Finland, offer of coffee is NOT offer of sex.
But since they are stuck with their foreign cultural principles, they think that coffee = sex.
There is one where foreigners have to learn how Finnish culture works.
Then we have this imam who says he is marrying 13 year olds. Because it is better to be married than date. Yay! That must be SO much in tune with Finnish culture.
No, wait… It is not!
-”I am surprised, Tony, how you can question the veracity of a report. There were 23,500 face-to-face interviews. With such a high sample, you start to see a trend. You have studied in university and should know that. Moreover a random sample was used.”
In which way were the claims of interviewed people VERIFIED TO BE TRUE! Claim is a claim. Unless backed by evidence, it is worthless.
What you can say, is that majority of Somali PERCEIVE being treated with racistic overtones. However, perception and reality are not same thing.
-”Then what would you call it, Tony? What is important is how they see things. True or false that is not the question. The fact is that that they see racism and that it is futile to turn to the authorities for help. That is pretty serious. Not a very good “grade” given in my opinion and shows a big failing of the system.”
So it is a failing of system if immigrants cannot get their head around fact that they are no longer in Hubbabubba-land and that they must alter their perception accordingly?
How surprising that your solution is always that Finns must bend over to immigrant demands.
How about how FINNS see things. If immigrants are being granted privileges and benefits they have not paid for, how will FINNS, who pay for those, see it?
Why only what immigrants see is relevant?
Or alternatively, why immigrant point of view is only correct one? They say that they are victims of racism. Again, there is no method used to verify this.
If they think that it is racist that women may wear short skirts and move out at town without male escort…
In your books it is racism and we must lock our women indoors and force them into potato sack. Just so immigrants do not have to adjust their perception to reality around them.
Huge majority of racism would vanish, if instead of pandering to perceptions of immigrants, you and system would tell them to learn local norms.
What they perceive as racism, is mostly just Finns living their life normally without even thinking of foreigners.
But immigrants do not understand how Finnish society works, so they scream racism when they try to apply their foreign cultural norms to Finnish society. And when that fails, of course it is fault of Finns.
April 30, 2009 at 5:37 am
“What’s the question?”
If racism is a crime as you suggest, what is the sentence for this crime.
April 30, 2009 at 9:01 am
Hi Enrique, the only I’m say is that this is a serious accusation and to say it you should be required to prove. Halla-aho is being charged for “hate speech” for doing exactly the same thing but other way around. So, double standard…
Because I have studied in university and furthermore I know a considerable amount of foreigners living in Finland is that I question this report.
“you know that is a loaded comment”, well I think you are right on that. I apologize and take this comment back. The reason I have said is that Somalis appearing as great victims, and once they DO come from a failed country, they DO lack the minimum skills to be a productive member is this society and they ARE failing and turning to violence and crime, so I used the “immigrants are mostly” fraise. That’s over representative I admit.
I’ll keep my 3 points…
- “Fins are racists”, some are, and if you remember I told here I’ve faced it myself, so I can’t deny it…
- “Immigrants shout racism” they do… you point “True or false that is not the question”, so how can this not be the question? This is the WHOLE question, how can we fix something that is not broken? If their claim is not true they are the one who should get fixed not the system…
- “the vendetta”. Well perhaps where you live you may not find this, but I personally know a considerable amount of immigrants in Tampere, surprisingly coming from
Africa, who wakeup in the morning already wishing to pick a fight with a Fin. I’ve hear myself they anger when talking about the Fins (they generalize BTW) and how they wish to “give them a lesson”. Many are attending the English service at the Pentecostal church in Tampere. They go to church to spread hate, very Christian… But it’s ease to just “disapprove” this and look to the other side, I don’t do that.
Those TREE factors exists and are well alive…
The bottom line is, this report shows how much immigrants FELLS they are discriminated not how much they REALLY are… Although for you if that’s true of false it’s not important for me it’s crucial…
Do you think this is discriminatory?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1167037/School-bans-Muslim-mother-parents-evening-wearing-veil.html
http://www.thelocal.se/10128/20080227/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west/8021627.stm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1063590/Devout-Muslim-sues-Tesco-making-carry-alcohol.html
If you think so how about this then?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-410150/Schoolgirl-arrested-refusing-study-non-English-pupils.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1163202/The-Polish-deli-owner-accused-refusing-serve-English-customers.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-410312/Non-Muslim-students-Islamic-school-forced-wear-headscarves.html
April 30, 2009 at 10:05 am
Is ignorance the same as discrimination? Is fear of the unknown really the same as racism? Give them time and even the most backward of the backwards will warm to the idea of immigration. You know, without immigrants, Finland wouldn’t have Sinebrychoff, Fazer, Finlayson, or even pizza (the national dish of Finland
). Eventually the frost will drive the pigs home…
April 30, 2009 at 10:12 am
And I should mention, acceptance can never be forced through a culture by merely passing a law. Most of the work is the responsibility of the immigrant. As an immigrant, I have made it my goal to know more about Finland than the average Finn. This takes work. I intend to stay here whether Jussi Sikspäkki likes it or not. I also realize that I will probably have to spend the rest of my life proving that I deserve to be here. I am fine with this. I’m glad that I chose to move here. Occasionally I realize that things are different than what I was once used to. I have the freedom to point this out. But I also realize that most of the differences are positive. I am thrilled to be in Finland and will proudly receive citizenship in a matter of months. This is my home.
April 30, 2009 at 10:35 am
Well done willie. You are another example how you can success in this country. I agree with you, the responsibility is mostly ours and the sooner we realise this the better to all of us.
“proudly receive citizenship” I like your attitude… be proud of this country, because it deserves it, makes the whole difference.
I don’t think you’ll need to be proving for the rest of your life, mate. I did it for a while now it’s not needed anymore. I’m respected by my workmates, neighbours, wife’s family and friends. I don’t know how many more Fins I’ll come across in such level that I need to prove anything to him/she. If you’re not a trouble this process eventually ends…
“Eventually the frost will drive the pigs home…” No one wish this more then I mate, although I doubt…
April 30, 2009 at 10:07 pm
Hi Willie, thank you for your post. If you have Finnish ancestry, you are not considered by law an immigrant. Yes, I agree about Sikspäkki — who needs his opinion. It is funny, but approval of the whole of Finland isn’t necessary. Only a few good people who believe in you and accept you will suffice. It is that way in any society.
If Finland is your home, Willie, then it is your home. Nobody can take that away from you.
Late addition: Congratulations on becoming soon a Finnish citizen. When I moved to Finland in 1978, I decided not to take citizenship for about ten years due to the antiquated immigration “laws” and incompetence of the then Aliens Office run by Eila Kännö, a state within a state.
April 30, 2009 at 10:11 pm
Willie, I think that ignorance is what sparks racism. You, like me, and a few others, are a few who returned back to Finland after being absent for a generation or more. As you know, in our lifetime we can build many homes in different places.
April 30, 2009 at 10:34 pm
“ive them time and even the most backward of the backwards will warm to the idea of immigration.”
Bullshit, i was pro immigration before i saw real effects and same goes majority of my friends.
“Finland wouldn’t have Sinebrychoff, Fazer, Finlayson, or even pizza (the national dish of Finland
).”
Bullshit, what kind of integration program they needed? if answer is none then do not compare that to current situation.
April 30, 2009 at 11:23 pm
Hannu, picture immigration like the Internet. The latter is an electronic version of new worlds and the former is in human form. Stopping the tide of information (human and electronic) is like claiming the world is flat in 2009.
May 1, 2009 at 7:47 am
Hyvä vappu to all…
I think nothing represent more being Finnish than Vappu. The binge drinking, students in the water, expensive balloons and those hats… I hope multiculturalism doesn’t take it away…
Enrique, que tengas un bueno dia del trabajo, mi amigo
PS: “immigration like the Internet” I like your analogy, but as a computer specialist I advice a good firewall and a up to date antivirus…
May 1, 2009 at 8:20 am
Amigo Tony, I like your sense of humor. Very nice indeed. I hope you are enjoying I restful Friday with your family.
May 1, 2009 at 10:27 am
Hi Tony, don’t you think that a RANDOM sample of 23,500 people gives a tendency?
-”Immigrants shout racism” they do… you point “True or false that is not the question”, so how can this not be the question?
My point here is that while some claim that “immigrants shout racism all the time,” this is a red herring. The real issue is that the majority of the Somalis in the survey felt they were victims of hostility due to racism. What should be done is investigate the matter and see what kind of action can be taken.
Thank you for sending the links. I looked at some of them and they must awaken passions on both side of the debate.
May 1, 2009 at 1:34 pm
“The real issue is that the majority of the Somalis in the survey felt they were victims of hostility due to racism”. Absolutely… That’s the real issue, I couldn’t have said better myself… They FELT, what is very different than they WERE…
Like the intternetnetsi example the guys was used to bribery, when he tried to buy more medicine that he was allowed, he tried to bride the pharmacy, one it wasn’t successful he was then “discriminated”… I still look this survey with great suspicious in particularly when it comes to Somalis. As I said there is quite a bunch of them in the English service and, trust me, you would be amazed with their attitude towards the Fins and the country in general.
As you said “What should be done is investigate the matter”. If it’s dome, I’m sure we’ll find the 3 different aspects I’ve described before. Real racism, race card and vendetta. I don’t know about percentages, I fell the 10% + 30% + 60% is appropriate, but this is my filling therefore it can be wrong. But I know for a fact that the 3 aspects exist…
But I doubt this matter will be taken any further, it’s not necessary. This survey has already fulfilled its purpose…
HS reports “One in three Somalis has encountered racist crime in the past 12 months”. So it’s affirming that it did happen, it’s a fact, not that they believe so and some cases may not be true.
You report “Decimation is alive and kicking in the EU and Finland”. Again, affirming that this is true, not perhaps or maybes mentioned..
I wonder how much more waives it has made in the tabloids…
For the immigrants in Finland that comes on a silver plate… “You see.. I told you they are bunch of racists bastards… I told you… bla bla bla”
For many Fins… “Oh my God, I didn’t know we were that bad… Pour guys… I’m ashamed of being Finnish… bla bla bla”.
So there is no need for any further action. There is no need to check the accusation of those 484 Somalis. As you said yourself it doesn’t matter is that is true or not…
May 1, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Tony, I hope you are enjoying your Friday.
The example given by Hannu Varjo is moronic. On the one hand you are refuting a random survey carried out by the EU with 23,500 people and then give a lot of clout to what Hannu says about ONE person. As I mentioned before, I do not know the case and I am depending on word of mouth, which is a poor way to draw reliable information.
For those things to be proved — real racism, race card and vendetta — you would have to do a study under scientific guidelines. If you feel that the breakdown is 10%, 30% and 60% that is your opinion. I respect it but disagree with it.
OK, the report suggests that racism is alive and kicking. Maybe a more suitable headline would be: EU survey shows Somalis suffer from racist attacks more than is believed. Here again, if one group suffers such attacks, it must also happen among other groups. That is my strong hunch.
No need to be ashamed of anything. We are very fortunate that we can discuss these matters without anyone taking us away at night and murdering us.
I did not say what they said does not matter. I stated that the point is that they have brought an issue to light and it must be addressed like anything else.
The European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights (FRA) today releases results of the first ever EU-wide survey on immigrant and ethnic minority groups’ experiences of discrimination and racist crime. The survey reveals that discrimination, harassment and racially motivated violence are far more widespread than recorded in official statistics. The results suggest a sense of resignation among ethnic minorities and immigrants who appear to lack confidence in mechanisms to protect victims. The FRA calls on EU governments to improve the situation, by promoting the reporting and recording of discrimination and racist crime, fully applying anti-discrimination laws, and better informing vulnerable minorities about their rights.
FRA Director Morten Kjaerum: “The survey reveals how large the ‘dark figure’ of racist crime and discrimination really is in the EU. Official racism figures only show the tip of the iceberg”.
May 1, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Ok, one isnt enough.
Police war racist pig when arrested one mideastern who assaulted white.
VR ir racist organisation because they checked black persons ticked and fined him for not having one.
Shopquard was racists because they catched black person shoplifting.
police is racist because they happened to stop car who was driven by mideastern.
I were racist because i dint give work for bill and demanded cash, because spare part wasnt available, because we had 2week line, because i couldnt arrange delivery, because i couldnt understand what he talked with very bad finnish and asked if he could ask his friend to explain, because i told someone to fuck off when they were demeaning and pushy against womans, because i didnt say hello, because i told one not to sit in reserved seat, because i just treat them like everyone else!
Is there enough for starters?
May 1, 2009 at 2:53 pm
“The example given by Hannu Varjo is moronic”. Why? I don’t know about Argentina, but in Brazil we would try to bribe even the Pope, if we had a chance… So if someone tells me that a Brazilian tried to bride a pharmacy I wouldn’t dismiss it as moronic. Perhaps Somalis are different.
It’s not just one person, mate. In case you are in Tampere some Sunday afternoon spare 2 hours and pop in the Pentecostal church (Aleksanterinkatu 18). The service starts at 3pm. You don’t have to follow the service if you don’t want, just stay for the coffee afterwards and pay attention on what people is saying around you… You may change your opinion just a little bit…
I’m not refuting the survey, I’m just say that it’s being used to raise serious accusation without prove…
Yes you could have written your article differently. Also HS could change the “has encountered racism” by “could have encountered”. It doesn’t refute it but it doesn’t accept it as holy true either…
“…addressed like anything else” I agree with you, but I would address it first before making serious accusations.
And no much for enjoying the Friday… Here the bank holyday is Monday not today… And my wife and children went to Finland for a week, so it’ll be a quiet weekend (if you knew my daughter you would understand the “quiet” part).
May 1, 2009 at 4:29 pm
–So if someone tells me that a Brazilian tried to bride a pharmacy I wouldn’t dismiss it as moronic. Perhaps Somalis are different.
But here you are generalizing again: South Americans are always bribing people. Maybe some are obliged to do it in their country, but acting the same way abroad without any understanding of the country is pretty idiotic. If an anyone did that irrespective of the country he/she came from in Finland would show pretty low intelligence.
Wow, so you have a “quiet” weekend in Eire. I hope the weather got better. It has been really sunny in Finland.
May 1, 2009 at 4:32 pm
Hannu, everything has a limit. Common sense. If I am on a train and do not pay the ticket and get caught it isn’t racism. However, if I get treated especially hard and ridiculed because of my ethnic background then that is racism. Moreover, I think the person to blame is the manager who hired those people whom you claim were fired because they could not stand having a woman manager. As you know, a good manager hires the right people; every person he hires who is fired or quits undermines his ability as a manager.
All these things that you mention show how much trust some of these people have about our society. Well, would you consider your behavior any better?
Anyway, why are you always generalizing? There are all types in all societies: people who you like and don’t like. Even though I do not agree with everything that Tony says, he is a good example to some Finns. Willie in Jyväskylä is another one. There are many, many immigrants who are decent members of Finnish society. In this group there are Muslims, Jews, Catholics etc… But let’s stop using ethnic labels and religion to make our point about a whole group.
May 1, 2009 at 8:53 pm
“Hannu, everything has a limit. Common sense. If I am on a train and do not pay the ticket and get caught it isn’t racism. However, if I get treated especially hard and ridiculed because of my ethnic background then that is racism.”
No, if you happen to be different ethnich backround it is racism, i heard that myself. I HAVE HEARD THAT ALL MYSELF! Im not generalizing nor telling all do that just ALL I HAVE SEEN.
Why in fuck quards in shops have to go under CAMERAS when they get SOME people, THATS BECAUSE IF THEY DONT HAVE FILM THEY ARE SUED FOR DISCRIMINATION!
Like my friend who got thief, he was sued for discrimination because thief wasnt finn.. What i have seen they were treadet like finns but still claimed discrimination.
“Moreover, I think the person to blame is the manager who hired those people whom you claim were fired because they could not stand having a woman manager. As you know, a good manager hires the right people; every person he hires who is fired or quits undermines his ability as a manager.”
And if he didnt hire? RACISM! He knew possibility and gave them a change, didnt go well.
And i wont stop using ethnic labels as long those are so clear and provable. I stop it when there isnt real differences.
May 2, 2009 at 5:54 pm
“Hannu, everything has a limit. Common sense. If I am on a train and do not pay the ticket and get caught it isn’t racism. However, if I get treated especially hard and ridiculed because of my ethnic background then that is racism.”
And about that, “matkaliput olkaa hyvä”, “ei löydy, hukannut kait olen”, “Sitten tulee tarkastusmaksu”, “RASISTIT!”
May 2, 2009 at 9:05 pm
–And about that, “matkaliput olkaa hyvä”, “ei löydy, hukannut kait olen”, “Sitten tulee tarkastusmaksu”, “RASISTIT!”
Come on, get off of it. So the immigrant is going to yell “racism” because he was caught?! Hmmm. If you are on a train you can pay the conductor if you do not have a ticket. You can buy it on the train.
May 3, 2009 at 5:23 pm
“Come on, get off of it. So the immigrant is going to yell “racism” because he was caught?! Hmmm. If you are on a train you can pay the conductor if you do not have a ticket. You can buy it on the train.”
Not in local train, get your facts. http://www.vr.fi/heo/lahi/flipunmyynti.htm
And for curious coindisense, that who yelled racism suddenly couldt speak proper finnish when inspectors came and lady who wondered how he was talking fluent finnish in phone was racist too according to him.
I have seen so many claims that something is racists when things doesnt go as immigrant wants that i think its one fucking joke. There is real racism but read tale about boy who yelled wolfs.
And about VR, i could have had inspection fee once when i didnt use “stamp machine” but acted like in long distance train, conductor/inspector explained that i should have used machine but understood since i clearly wasnt local and had ticket.
Of course i could think that when he explained how to use system was demeaning and racist against lapps who dont have local trains and i should be allowed to use it like long distance trains from where i come from, its my culture…..
And you dont tell lies about how you suddenly lose your ticket even in long distance trains, you just ask conductor to sell one. I have been travelling with those plenty so i know that when someone says “matkaliput olkaa hyvä” you say “Haluaisin ostaa lipun xxx” not “se katosi” and i presume it applies to local trains too if there is possibility to buy ticket.
And that inspector was racist agaisnt me too because he checked my ticket too, like everyone elses.
May 4, 2009 at 5:42 am
-”But here you are generalizing again: South Americans are always bribing people. Maybe some are obliged to do it in their country, but acting the same way abroad without any understanding of the country is pretty idiotic. If an anyone did that irrespective of the country he/she came from in Finland would show pretty low intelligence.”
BINGO!
They do NOT spend time and effort learning FINNISH cultural norms and practices. Instead they go doing things as if they were back at home.
If back home things got done smoothly with bribes, they in their arrogance and laziness presume it is true here as well.
Of course it is useless and only encourages this behavior, but that is multicultural society for you. Only foreigners have rights in multicultural society you so much value Enrique.
Furthermore, random choice in this “study” is WORTHLESS. Why? Because every person who bothered to figure out how things are studied to even minor limit would find HUGE hole in it.
IT NEVER DEFINED WHAT WAS RACIST.
They were asking opinions. Would having huge portion of randomly chosen people saying that you Enrique are wife beater make it true?
No.
Neither does 25 000 foreigners “feeling” that they are treated in racist way make it true unless you know what they consider racist. If what they consider racist is instead normal attribute of Finnish society (like not taking bribes to give medicine and so forth), then it is IMMIGRANTS who are guilty of racism.
-”Give them time and even the most backward of the backwards will warm to the idea of immigration.”
Actually, more people are in contact with worthless masses imported from abroad more critical they are of immigration. Because immigration for sake of immigration, or multiculturalism, is counterproductive both in short and long term.
As proven by failures of UK, France, Germany and every other “multicultural” community.
Skilled, integrating immigrants. Welcome.
Immigrants who only can scream racism and refuse to learn the way of the land… Stay away. I do not care what kind of hellhole your home is, I do NOT want to import it here too so that we can share your misery.
May 4, 2009 at 7:18 am
–They do NOT spend time and effort learning FINNISH cultural norms and practices. Instead they go doing things as if they were back at home.
Is this how you work professionally? Take one sentence and make a gross generalization?
May 4, 2009 at 7:41 am
-”Is this how you work professionally? Take one sentence and make a gross generalization?”
And here we witness again you trying to avoid the issues at hand. Is that how you work professionally?
Avoiding the issues and trying to sidetrack the issue to something irrelevant when you know you are trying to defend position which is impossible to defend?
Oh yes, but I forgot… You are JOURNALIST of some type.
It is your job to go ad hominem and try to avoid facts to make things appear the way you like.
Large amount of immigrants do exactly the thing I described. Amounts wary depending on country of origin, Asian immigrants having habit to integrate (conforming cultural traits) and Africans worst.
But most of those who have serious issues, represent this group. Rest figure out how life works in Finland and adjust.
May 4, 2009 at 11:11 am
Think how lucky you are in being able to talk directly to this journalist “of some type.” Due to this blog, you have been able to confront your prejudices more seriously. This is always a positive matter. I have, as well as many others, become richer thanks to the blog.
May 4, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Prejudice is what human does, i do prejudice against bears. I know its rare that bear attack on people but still i know what to do when i see one and i prejudice that its carnivor who can kill me with one swing. I havent ever seen a bear in wild and never worked with bears so its my prejudice wrong?
I have prejudice against death cap even i havent never tasted it, how wrong…
I know that many of immigrants have been grown in societes whom values are disguisting and medieval and they still tend to practise those even after moving in finland. Im sceptic about their willingless to adapt local culture and dont like their culture and would like to deny that part of their culture even with law, i have worked with them, seen what they do and by that i have prejudice. I will happily discriminate every woman stoning cultures with joy, thats only way to get them move on from medieval beliefs.
What you think about womans cry for help when political correctness dont allow it?
What you think about that political correctness gives extreme groups voice to dictate how things should be done?
Of course all wont do that but when majority of some immigrants do then its not prejudice but knowledge.
And last question, do you thing next text is racist?
“Maahanmuuttajien kanssa työskentelevät usein juuri sellaiset henkilöt, joiden koulutus varsinaisesti on alun pitäen tähdännyt sosiaali- ja terveyspuolelle. Henkilön, joka on koulutettu hoitamaan vanhuksia, sairaita, lapsia, mielenvikaisia ja vammaisia, on vaikea asennoitua uudella tavalla, kun hän joutuukin työssään palvelemaan periaatteessa täysin terveitä maahanmuuttajia. Puolustuskyvyttömiä puolustamaan adaptoitunut mieli jää uudessakin työssä päälle. Maahanmuuttajat ovat uhreja, eikä heistä saa sanoa mitään pahaa. Hoiturista, tai sosiaalitädistä tulee kuin leppälintu, joka ruokkii sen omat poikaset pesästä pudottamaa ja sitä itseäänkin isompaa käenpoikaa.
Joillakin maahanmuuttajaryhmillä on sitten ne omat tavat ja oikut. Ne on tietysti suvaittava, sillä eiväthän vammaiset ja mielenterveyspotilaatkaan aina käyttäydy yleisten normien mukaan. Eikä heitä lain edessäkään kohdella yhdenvertaisesti peruskansalaisten kanssa. Välillä tuntuu että erilainen kulttuuritausta on mielenvikaisuuteen verrattavissa oleva häiriö, jolla puolustusasianajajat koettavat saada pahantekijää ulos rikosoikeudellisesta vastuustaan, kuin koiraa veräjästä. “
May 4, 2009 at 9:45 pm
Today i have seen total xenophobia, someone asked where im from! Its not acceptable to ask that (even finns have asked that atleast 120 years)
Im finn tho but not local.
Can i sue her for discrimination or racism?
May 4, 2009 at 10:04 pm
Hannu, you may think racism is a joke and that it is something that should be treated lightly by society. But, there may be a streak of sarcasm, cynicism or humor – or all three of the above in your comment. Stay away from people such as Halla-aho – his ideas are hazardous to your mind.
May 4, 2009 at 10:38 pm
So its because im lappish not because i dont qualify. Easy.
I start to call all racis, so i get evertything explained.
Not my fault but racism.
May 4, 2009 at 11:10 pm
Are you a Sami or a Finn who is a native of Lapland?
May 5, 2009 at 5:09 am
-”Hannu, you may think racism is a joke and that it is something that should be treated lightly by society. But, there may be a streak of sarcasm, cynicism or humor – or all three of the above in your comment. Stay away from people such as Halla-aho – his ideas are hazardous to your mind.”
And racism of minority towards majority, that is the worst form of racism.
And one you happily support.
-”Think how lucky you are in being able to talk directly to this journalist “of some type.” Due to this blog, you have been able to confront your prejudices more seriously. This is always a positive matter. I have, as well as many others, become richer thanks to the blog.”
I do hope some have managed to start thinking about truth of immigration and multiculturalism due to this blog, and not due to your one-sided blindly supportive claims.
Which you fail to support with facts.
May 5, 2009 at 7:02 am
–And racism of minority towards majority, that is the worst form of racism.
All forms of racism are wrong. However, that one practiced by the majority culture is far worse because it aims to dominate and exclude people from society; it is a form or a means to dominate others. As you can see, there is a huge difference between racism by the minority and majority.
May 5, 2009 at 8:28 am
Good morning to all… I hope you all have had a nice Vappu…
So amigo Enrique, I must admit I’m a bit lost with our comments here. As far as I understood your goal here is having a fair and balanced discussion about immigration in Finland. Fair enough, but…
You have no problem in accept the claim from 484 Somalis. For you, their claim of being subject to discrimination is probably true, but all other examples given here by others portraying race card are moronic and probably false… I do (and did before) acknowledge that some discrimination claims are probably true (I said many times before that I faced it myself) but I can’t discard the others just like that. I’m amazed that you can…
A Somali claiming discrimination without any more information whatsoever about the circumstance is more creditable than a testimony of a Fin in this forum. So would you say that a Fin is more willing to lie than a Somali (In case of discrimination I’m talking here, not in generic terms)? Are we such a great group of immigrants after all? Is it that difficult to be real the examples given here by others?
You know people like to talk about racism. I think these days is more cool to raise an anti-racism flag than a save-the-planet flag. But very few dare to dig out the real reasons behind racism. Fortunately better have a few than non.
I, like others, strongly believe that WE the immigrants are our worst enemy. People are not stupid and before we start exercising auto-critic the suspicious against us won’t get any better.
PS:
“All forms of racism are wrong. However, that one practiced by the majority culture is far worse”
Oh boy… Is that right Enrique… So a Somali saying that he hates these whites is not as bad as a Fin saying that he hates these blacks?
May 5, 2009 at 12:19 pm
“Are you a Sami or a Finn who is a native of Lapland?”
I dont know, probably finn. I have slighly bended eyes and high “poskipäät”. Im brown eyed and have brown hair. So probably some sami blood in my anchestry.
My family have lived in lapland atleast late 1700 on mother side, dunno about father side since surname seems to be new (law about surnames came 1920 and many invented surnames to them).
Earliest about my father side name could be from 7.8.1892 when Paavo Warjonen and Eeva Hiiri got son Johannes in muolaa. that could be my relative or not.
in 16.10.1827 there were buried Elias Jussila in Kemijärvi, Isokylä (where im from) dying for “feber” in age of 72y6mo. That is probably my forefather.
Or 3.5.1823 Afsk.Sold. Joh. Berg stygn 69y8mo could be one too, granma told that we had ages ago Berg as name and there is two different Jussila families in kemijärvi.
(source http://hiski.genealogia.fi/hiski/1p9vv4?fi )
But anyway im from different tribe than locals so can i claim racism? Im not hämäläinen like locals and locals hear that when talk. And there is no really visible difference between sami and finnish.
Claiming racism because im not best for open posion would be nice, i could forget that i have to study and be the best just claim every misfortune as racism and sit in home crying how hämäläiset are so racist and demanding that hämäläiset should understand and hire lappalaisia.
May 5, 2009 at 12:21 pm
“All forms of racism are wrong. However, that one practiced by the majority culture is far worse”
Is it? I dont know about majority gangs who rape minority because they think they are filthy whores and steal from minority violently because theyre infidels.
May 5, 2009 at 1:25 pm
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Up+to+a+third+of+%E2%80%9Cunderage%E2%80%9D+asylum+seekers+prove+to+be+older/1135245704793
“Up to a third of the asylum seekers who have been … have proven to be older than they claimed”
“Quite recently a resident of the Parikkala reception centre came and said voluntarily that he was of adult age…Could it be that the asylum seeker wants to get into a facility for adults in a more lively community?”
“… a third of the applicants proved to be adults. Another third were so-called “Dublin cases… Some are both. One, who claimed to be 15 years old, had been granted a residence permit in Italy as a 25-year-old”.
“A police officer who interviewed the asylum seekers says that Finnish social benefits, which are better than in many EU countries, attract some of them to Finland”
“Very many say openly that they have come to Finland for money. They are very open especially when they know that they will have to leave Finland…”
Amigo Enrique and you are more willing to believe on those people than on Fins…
I’ll say it again… We are our worst enemy…
May 5, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Heres a link to my latest post, part of a series designed to help my fellow immigrants assimilate within Finnish culture and understand exactly what makes Finns tick.
http://willielahti.blogspot.com/2009/05/finnish-cultural-assimilation-lesson.html
Pass it on to current or future immigrants. I guarantee, my lessons will help!
Again, I must repeat what I have said before – being anti-immigration doesn’t automatically make one a racist.
May 5, 2009 at 10:31 pm
Thank you willie for your post. Music is a good way to fell the soul of the country. I warmly recommend that you visit Willi’s blog. I think that concrete solutions on how to start to integration process are necessary. Thank you.
May 5, 2009 at 10:38 pm
Hi Tony, like in every situation there are all types. The article, however, does not state how many, or what percentage, claim to be a different age. What is the aim of the article? To show that assylum-seekers lie and should not be trusted? Even though Finland pays 300 euros a month, which is 10 times higher than in other EU countries, it is still a small amount of money taking into account the cost of living in this country. But if you are on the run without any prospects of making a living, any help is accepted.
May 5, 2009 at 10:39 pm
Hannu, any type of vigilante-style law is unacceptable irrespective of the country, place or group that is carrying it out.
May 5, 2009 at 10:41 pm
Hannu, a more appropriate term would be discrimination as opposed to racism.
May 5, 2009 at 10:51 pm
Amigo Tony, it is true that we can be our own enemy. But isn´t it odd that if the same crime is committed by two different persons from different backgrounds, doesn’t it mean they should be also “punished” or “ostracized” equally. If an immigrant commits a crime, it is twice a bigger problem than if a so-called native does.
A survey gives us an indication of how people think. There are, as you know, many types of surveys and polls and they give us different views on an issue. The important matter of what the survey pointed out is what the Somalis think. The circumstances are different from our vantage view and place in society. Certainly if a more comprehensive survey would have been done, we could include a bunch of different nationalities and compare what they think.
One again, it is what they said that is important. It is what surveys are all about — finding out what people think and their experiences.
Since the majority culture controls the cultural, linguistic and wealth that a society has, discrimination by this group is far more devastating because it excludes people. They have the power to do that while for a minority suffering from high unemployment and poverty it is a different story.
I think that hating one group is as bad on both scales. The effect is different. It is a bit like when a person from a very different culture tells me with some dismay about Finnish cultural habits. In this case we have to be neutral and say “things are done differently” and does not mean that one culture is better than the other — they are just different and should be accepted and respected as such.
May 6, 2009 at 5:22 am
-”he effect is different. It is a bit like when a person from a very different culture tells me with some dismay about Finnish cultural habits. In this case we have to be neutral and say “things are done differently” and does not mean that one culture is better than the other — they are just different and should be accepted and respected as such.”
So I should respect hardcore Immigrants culture and accept that he will see my ladyfriend as a valid target for rape because she does not wear a dress over all her body and, shockingly, walks ALONE outside her house?
Hmm?
In my country, my NATIVE country for which MY ancestors have through generations bled and toiled, paid taxes and worked.
But all that does not give me right to tell this immigrant to fuck off when he tries to import what me and my whole culture see as barbaric practice into Finland?
Clearly again, Enrique, you see immigrants as having more rights than Finns. Which leads to our next problem which you try to avoid addressing.
-”Since the majority culture controls the cultural, linguistic and wealth that a society has, discrimination by this group is far more devastating because it excludes people. They have the power to do that while for a minority suffering from high unemployment and poverty it is a different story.”
But when minority starts to oppress or attack majority, you have far more serious issue. Minority can change their ways to not be offensive in eyes of majority, and indeed should do so to integrate.
But majority will eventually get fed up being constantly kicked, blamed and attacked. And majority has means to FORCE change. And minority will not be happy when that limit is reached. This is why racism of minority is worse than majority, because it has far more damaging results in long term.
Minority can adjust their way of life to fit within majority culture, and MUST do so in name of national unity, but majority will not be willing to bow down to demands of minority.
-”If an immigrant commits a crime, it is twice a bigger problem than if a so-called native does. ”
Issue is not immigrant crime, issue is immigrant DISPROPORTIONATE crime. I once again point to rape statistics. You still have not proven that statistics I have provided would change in any notable way when they are put through court process.
May 6, 2009 at 7:13 am
–So I should respect hardcore Immigrants culture and accept that he will see my ladyfriend as a valid target for rape because she does not wear a dress over all her body and, shockingly, walks ALONE outside her house?
There is something wrong with this statement. In first place you use an extreme example, label a group and presume something that has not happened. Moreover, your comment insults and causes conflict. A society is ruled by laws and morals.
–In my country, my NATIVE country for which MY ancestors have through generations bled and toiled, paid taxes and worked.
If you are sincere, you did nothing to help your ancestors. All you did was learn and accept what they did. You did not even have any say on where you were born nor in what culture they’d dress you.
May 6, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Just to try to finalize this point… I’ve nothing against the survey itself… I think it’s what you said a way to see what they think, fair enough…
My problem is that this survey has been used to back up one serious accusation, something that is should not be done without prove. About half of the people interviewed in Finland are Somalis (484) and it’s clear that they are not trustworthy.
What press my button is the double standard. Can you spot the difference between these two sentences?
HS on the survey: “One in three Somalis has encountered racist crime in the past 12 months”
BBC on the rising of rapes in Italy: “…after a spate of rapes blamed on foreigners”
Notice that Somalis “encountered” racist crimes at the same time that rapes are “blamed” on foreigners. You said that we should see a trend. Well I do…
“…immigrant commits a crime, it is twice a bigger…” Sorry but it’s the opposite. Crimes against immigrates are hysterically screamed and committed by immigrates are play down cynically…
This really pisses me off. It show a absurd level of double standard and protection toward us, what I don’t want. You talk so much about equality, so I want to be treated equal… I don’t want any special treatment. I think news like that undermine the huge effort me and others have done to integrate and blend into the Finnish society. Because a group of looser blood suckers that came here hanging on the dole and have no problem in spit on the hand that feed them, WE ALL see our efforts neutralized.
300 euros can be a small amount but what have they done to earned? This comes for my and your hard labour. And if you read the HS article you saw that they get money even for disco. Not too bad, is it? And yet if you just had heard what I have when they talking about Finland and Finns. Thrust me you would think that this 300 could be better spend…
Bottom line is, I don’t what to be protected… I don’t need to be protected. And like me many think just the same, we have succeeded and if those most “venerable” are not happy with the system, sorry but they should piss off…
May 7, 2009 at 6:21 am
-”There is something wrong with this statement. In first place you use an extreme example, label a group and presume something that has not happened. Moreover, your comment insults and causes conflict. A society is ruled by laws and morals.”
There is nothing wrong with this statement. There are many movements in Islamic Immigrant groups for spreading their ideals to countries where they immigrate. And they expect their cultural norms to be accepted.
Like our famous imam who thinks that 13-years is good age to marry. THIRTEEN FUCKING YEARS OLD GIRLS!
And we should just accept this because it is their way.
Or other imam and his flock, yes not all Australian muslims but Imam was not alone either, who said that rape problem would be solved if there was no “uncovered meat”. Namely saying that australian women should put on potato sack and be locked at home.
What I said is happening in the world.
-”If you are sincere, you did nothing to help your ancestors. All you did was learn and accept what they did. You did not even have any say on where you were born nor in what culture they’d dress you.”
And what did immigrants do? Come here to ready built nation to take advantage of it’s freedoms and then force their failed cultural norms to it. To turn this working, nice and stable country into yet another hellhole like one they originated from.
I do accept this culture, because it WORKS. Look at those wonderful multicultural societies! They import people from failed societies, like Middle Eastern ones.
Compare Finland to any ME nation. How many of those can claim to have achieved same things as Finland did with Finnish culture?
Name global high tech companies originating from ME…
Tell me how often scientific probes carry instruments built by their universities…
Are they known as havens of high level engineering ability?
No, they are mostly crappy places living well only because they have oil. They have no other industry. Their main educational field tends to be RELIGION.
Why oh why should we accept ways of such failures? Once they build their societies to same level of advancement as ours, and beyond, then we can start talking. But as it is, majority of immigrants come from countries which have NOTHING that would be worthy of incorporating into Finnish society.
And even less they have any business trying to force their ways to Finnish society.
May 7, 2009 at 7:33 pm
are we really racist? read http://hommaforum.org/index.php/topic,6499.msg101203/topicseen.html#new
I seen to be racists when i want to everyone been treated in same way. “i have a dream”, bullshit in enriques world where everyone is treated according their skincolor.
May 7, 2009 at 10:30 pm
Hannu, that “bullshit” you refer to was one of the most far-reaching speeches by Martin Luther King. That speech changed a whole nation. So please go back to the drawing board and learn a bit of history.
Mahatma Ghandi put it in the following way:
Whenever you have truth
it must be given with love,
or the message and the
messenger will be rejected.
So Hannu, lighten up because your message has been rejected.
May 7, 2009 at 10:36 pm
–There is nothing wrong with this statement. There are many movements in Islamic Immigrant groups for spreading their ideals to countries where they immigrate. And they expect their cultural norms to be accepted.
So you actually believe that Finland will turn Muslim? You forget that our religion comes from the Middle East. I am certain you have read Mika Waltari’s Sinhue.
May 7, 2009 at 10:44 pm
That bullshit i refered is your world not that speech. US, canada and others dont work like king wanted, you also dont want it to happen.
May 7, 2009 at 10:46 pm
“So you actually believe that Finland will turn Muslim? You forget that our religion comes from the Middle East. I am certain you have read Mika Waltari’s Sinhue.”
Of course it will if we let all to come and are you really so stupid that you compare cristianity and muslims
May 7, 2009 at 10:48 pm
Tony, what do you think of how Brazilian society is structured. You have a European elite and lots of poverty. Do you believe that most of the Brazilian poor are a strain on society; that is, they are poor because they are lazy?
–Bottom line is, I don’t what to be protected… I don’t need to be protected. And like me many think just the same, we have succeeded and if those most “venerable” are not happy with the system, sorry but they should piss off…
Why should it piss you off? What should they do if they believe that they are victims of racism? I would even go further: Join a political party, get a petition going, organize and lobby. Raise your voice and debate the issue. Bring it to public attention. Tony, there are certain sectors in our society who feel so excluded that they believe that nothing will change even if they tried. That, in my opinion, is worrying. Society cannot accommodate everyone but it sure can offer opportunities for people to make something out of themselves and to air their differences in a true democratic spirit.
May 7, 2009 at 10:52 pm
–Why oh why should we accept ways of such failures? Once they build their societies to same level of advancement as ours, and beyond, then we can start talking. But as it is, majority of immigrants come from countries which have NOTHING that would be worthy of incorporating into Finnish society.
That’s your opinion. You have not answered my question: Which groups (you mention “the majority”) have nothing to offer? And, with an attitude like that you have very little to offer as well.
You used to debate a lot on other sites (HS, for example) a while back. What made you hide under the cloak of anonymity? Did you get in trouble for your harsh opinions?
May 8, 2009 at 12:18 am
Oh so enrique is end with possible ways to arque so attack on person again, and you know who i am and you know im not tiwaz.
May 8, 2009 at 6:39 am
-”That’s your opinion. You have not answered my question: Which groups (you mention “the majority”) have nothing to offer? And, with an attitude like that you have very little to offer as well.”
Hmm… How about majority of those who immigrate? Huge majority come with family reasons. No language skills, no cultural skills.
They are useless drain to this society. Specially when idiots like you tell them that they have right to demand Finns to appease their immigrant asses.
And it is not my opinion. I asked you to provide list of globally significant and admired high-tech corporations which originate from ME.
You do not find very many, if any. Because those countries are ass backwards hellholes. Only think worth anything they have is oil, and that is only thing enabling the (well off since they are also some of the least equal places) people to buy Rolex watches and live in luxury.
Take away oil, for which they have done nothing to achieve, and ME implodes in it’s own lack of progress.
Or shall we imitate China… They are good at copying stuff from others, but again seriously hampered in innovation.
And I use nickname because I started to use this long time ago in internet and it is as much part of me as my “real” name. And since I have family I do not want any “holy crusaders” like you coming to disturb me in my private life.
May 8, 2009 at 1:21 pm
Good point Enrique I think the Brazilian example will be a good illustration…
If you see Brazil and US started basic at the same time. There were a critical difference between both, the English intended to live in the new colony but not the Portuguese, they want just the wealth. But something was in common, both country received a large amount of people from a very different cultural background, Africans slaves. I don’t know the number in the US but in Brazil we had about 4 Africans for each European during the colonization times. Quite a large number… Anyway something very different happened between Brazil and US.
In Brazil Africans were allowed to their cultural background. What I understand, was the opposite in the US. I’m not expert in north American history but I believe Africans in US were forced to give up their cultural inheritance and live a “European” life style. Pagan religion was totally allowed in Brazil but hunted and persecuted in the US for example.
So we have 2 examples of mass immigration, one adopted multiculturalism, other didn’t… Apparently the American model worker far better than the Brazilian one.
The “let it loose” policy that Portuguese adopted created a abysm between both population. Today it’s difficult to analyze the currently situation, because it has been going wrong for a long time, but it’s quite right that force a more mono cultural environment (of course it wasn’t 100% but) reduced the gap and helped Africans to integrate better and therefore have a better future…
About your question why they should piss off? Well you said yourself “…Society cannot accommodate everyone…” So if the society can’t accommodate someone who don’t have even the minimum qualification either stop blaming others and accept the reality or than piss off.
With sectors fells excluded? Somalis? Afghans? Iraqis? (BTW I saw in the news today that Finland is starting to send them back home. Finally good news). What do they bring with them? Have them been an asset or a burden to Finland? Finland is always in the world’s top list in education and professional skills, how can those people even expect to play the game that is light years ahead of them?
You know my daughter loves puzzle. She’s only 3, and no long ago I used to help her with a shape puzzle… You know, sometimes she wanted to fit a square into a triangle space, she never could, no matter how hard she tried. A square can’t fit into a triangle space, and if you push hard enough you brake the puzzle… This can be used for those people, they came here by their own will but they just don’t fit…
I’ve asked you before and I’ll do it again… How can a 25 years old guy who haven’t even learned to write his own name expect success in Finland?
May 9, 2009 at 2:16 am
But tony youre unreasonable, of course according to enrique 25y illiter cannot work because of racism. You dont see that racism is needed to explain why someone wont do well and so that people like enrique can understand them and be “BETTER” than so lowly racist people who are probably drinking beer in local bub and dont even have wife and forgot to get education…
When enrique sees that reality doesnt match what he thinks he just shut it up and people who claim with evedence were liars but he cant prove anything. Its probably too nice to be “in better cause” even if you dont have anything to back it up, just narrowminded thought about that everyone is equal be it phd or goatherder…
Like in enriques wonderland USA where totally racist and discriminating laws and such are on it is ok because those are racism against white hetero man, talk about doubleface.
May 9, 2009 at 3:26 am
And about USA, affirmitave action and other. People are granted priviledges because how they look or as we racist call because of their race. Thats because they have somehow underpriviledged because of their race but in same time race doesnt exitst. I really cant get this, youre underpriviledged because of race but race doesnt exits? uuh…
May 9, 2009 at 7:58 am
Hannu, there is nothing odd with what you said. In the US people like to be classified by “race” while in Europe we use “ethnicity.” Blacks talk about “race” all the time.
May 9, 2009 at 8:04 am
Hannu, is democracy perfect? Is our society perfect? The answer is obvious. Do we throw democracy and society in a trash can and give up? No.
Most of the things you mention in your post I have not said. This is what it sounds like if we took away “foreigner” and substitute it with “local.” Think if I would start to complain why some locals are getting welfare, voting and exercising their democratic rights. I would sound pretty odd. What you are doing is exactly the same thing for foreigners.
May 9, 2009 at 6:27 pm
So lets say. Im from rural area of small town in north, i belong to different tribe than hämäläiset and live with then. One of my friends is from small town in savo and belongs to different tribe too. We both live now in hämäläinen area and in big city. Should city and employers prefer us when they choose workers instead of locals because we have different background and live in “foreign” area?
That is what is happening in USA, people are treated differently only because of their background and that that doesnt sound good in my ears. Its not democratic or anything like that, it is racism. It would be demeaning and inhumane to treat me differently because who i am, i wouldnt be able to look in faces of my coworkers if i were selected over better candidates just because of my background. I know that background means a lot and for reason.
Lets take an example, you walk in night on street and see some womans, are you scared of them? You see some mans, is reaction same? its known fact that in us man do 8 times more robberies and assaults than woman so is it stereotype?
Its also known fack that black males do 8 times more robberies and assaults than white, is it stereotype? Shoul i not be suspicious and risk my health and money? Was black human right activist racist when he told that he was relieved when he saw that in dark alley man walking behind him was white? Is what in great speech of Martin where he said “treated as individuals” now working in USA? I know that its burden when your anchestors caused bad reputation to you but can it be fixed by preferial treatment? Ill say no it cant, only you and your fellows acting differently can fix it. Thats not perfect world but thats how world works. Humans are animals and have deeply installed way to see if something is threat and that cannot be changed by laws. Like i never ever seen a bear outside of zoo, i have still strong prejudice that its dangerous and know what to do if i see one. I have strong prejudice against wolfs too. I know both avoid human contact but i also know that both have high potential to be very dangerous and fatal. Should i go to pat bear because thinking it is dangerous is discriminating, most bears will run away in that case?
One example is our dog, when i moved to my new dads house there was dog who were teased on neighbour kid who was about same age and boy like me. Dog didnt like me at all on first because it knew i have high probability to tease it while it didnt mind at all on my sisters. I won it trust and we were good friends and thats because it knew i would be nice and in same time its hatred against young boys vanished. So you see and youre correct that when you know something it helps BUT only if one you know does things you approve. I understand that if i move to sweden i would be classified as drunk knifing bastard till i prove its not true, and for reason. I understand that where like one who emigrated to australia told that “finns are good workers, just dont add alcohol” comes. Its stereotype what warns on possible problems and normally its quite accurate when you talk about masses. Stereotyping and suspicion is how we survive in world what is hostile, nothing wrong or bad on it. Like im suspicious about every mushroom i pick if i cannot be totally sure its not poisonous, what discrimation… I probably should just eat all and forget collective memory and teachings how dangerous that can be…
What about discriminating safe high places, its really offensive to be scared when high place is safe…
I also discrimate against stove, its normally not hot but since i burned my hand in it when i were kid i wont touch it before i make sure its not hot.
May 19, 2009 at 11:26 pm
http://i43.tinypic.com/2j466om.jpg
June 2, 2009 at 6:16 am
Ummm.. a bit late into the discussion, but that survey should be taken by a pinch of salt, the way they approach is the same as with the corruption survey. They ask people how they ‘feel’ about things. So like Finland scores top 10 in the corruption study as here the small man doesn’t give or take bribes so “there is no corruption” and we get all these county and government shenanigans. If you ask if he faces discrimination from a person thats saying its discrimination and racism he can’t get a job as a CEO of a company on high school education then of course Finlands hugely racist.
June 19, 2009 at 8:59 am
*I’m sorry, but this sounds like men who accuse women of provoking rape because of the way they dress.*
But Enrique – that is what the muslim clerics say. And when we say this is wrong its racism xenophobia blaa blaa blaa. Embrace rapism!