I was very surprised to see a European Parliament candidate, Kai Pöntinen of the conservative Kokoomus party, placing an ad in the Helsingin Sanomat to “Stop welfare bum immigrants.”
Pöntinen, who could not resist using the immigrant-bashing card to rally voters, is indeed a sad case. One of the questions I would ask him is how many immigrants are social welfare bums? What is an immigrant and Finnish social-welfare bum?
I am pretty certain I would never get a credible answer from him.
He probably does not even know himself.
Pöntinen makes another incredible statement in his webstie after insulting immigrants in Finland: Is there anything racist about defending the Finnish way of life, culture and religion?
Is it the Finnish way of life, culture and religion? Did Pöntinen mean that it is the Finnish way to insult other groups in an opportunistic fashion in order to get votes?
June 4, 2009 at 5:13 am
-”One of the questions I would ask is him how many immigrants are social welfare bums?”
Huge number of them. Depending on their originating culture, up to 1/5 of them are unemployed and thus welfare bums.
And yes, it is THEIR fault. Because immigrant is ultimately responsible for learning to adjust to host society. Failure to do so will turn them into welfare bums.
There are, of course, Finnish ones as well. But that our small population already has some of these leeches does not mean we should increase the problem by importing more.
That is one of the stupidities in your arguments Enrique. You pretend that because problem exists in Finnish society without immigrants, it does not matter if problem is made bigger by importing more of it.
Our goal should be in reducing these problems, that means cutting dramatically on immigration of unintegrating immigrants who have no chance in hell to obtain job. Limit immigration to people who have critical skills or demonstrate willingness to do hard work to adjust to this society.
Not just any goat herder who wants in or Mediterranean beach lion who whispered sweet words to ear of some divorced middle aged lady. Or mail-order bride for old guy who can’t think with his head instead of his groin.
June 4, 2009 at 9:18 am
–Huge number of them. Depending on their originating culture, up to 1/5 of them are unemployed and thus welfare bums.
Well, in that case, that means that there are 233,000 unemployed Finns who are so-called welfare bums.
–And yes, it is THEIR fault. Because immigrant is ultimately responsible for learning to adjust to host society. Failure to do so will turn them into welfare bums.
Is it the fault of the 233,000 unemployed Finns because they do not have work? Using your logic, we could argue that they are “unemployed because they have not adjusted to the swift changes of the labor market.” This has turned them into welfare bums.
–That is one of the stupidities in your arguments Enrique. You pretend that because problem exists in Finnish society without immigrants, it does not matter if problem is made bigger by importing more of it.
Many will disagree with you, Tiwaz. You should sue the government and a bunch of public officials for painting a totally wrong picture about Finland’s labor problems.
– Our goal should be in reducing these problems, that means cutting dramatically on immigration of unintegrating immigrants who have no chance in hell to obtain job.
I agree but I still do not understand what you mean by “unintegrating immigrants.” Do you mean unskilled workers who have a hard time integrating into the Finnish labor market? And hey, lay off the descriptive and rude adjectives to describe some immigrants. Nobody is using such language to describe Finns.
June 4, 2009 at 10:21 am
I don’t understand why any immigrant who is NOT a welfare bum should be offended by Pöntinen’s statement. Quite the opposite; don’t you think it’s everyone’s benefit to keep the bums outside our borders from smearing the image of honest hard working immigrants? This opinion is strongly shared, for example by my wife, a tax-paying immigrant with a job.
Great majority of Finns are not against immigrants who contribute to our society (in concrete terms by work and tax euros, not vaguely by cultural enrichment and making our streets more colourful). But the word “immigrant” is sadly more and more getting the face of an unskilled aslym seeker chasing for disco money and opportunity to bring his extended family (or in too many cases “family”) to idly enjoy the welfare benefits. To me that fits the picture of a welfare bum immigrant!
Here’s a concrete case of a welfare bum immigrant for you to chew on:
http://www.finlex.fi/fi/oikeus/kko/kko/2009/20090014
Before your next statement “there are unemployed Finns too, and those who claim benefits with false grounds”, please first answer Tiwaz’s question why do we need to also import unemplyment and make the problem even worse, instead of focusing our limited resources to the problem that already exists?
What Finland’s immigration policy should be:
1. liberal, proactive towards work-based immigration
2. limited towards welfare-based immigration
3. focusing the humanitarian aid where the problem is, instead of opening the doors to the problem.
June 4, 2009 at 11:59 am
-”Well, in that case, that means that there are 233,000 unemployed Finns who are so-called welfare bums. ”
Some of them indeed are, people who know they are unemployable but can’t be arsed. Many of them are simply people looking for work, who are employable.
-”Is it the fault of the 233,000 unemployed Finns because they do not have work? Using your logic, we could argue that they are “unemployed because they have not adjusted to the swift changes of the labor market.” This has turned them into welfare bums.”
If they do not have skills for the jobs they want, yes.
If they do not even try to figure out if they can do something else or learn new skills to become employable, yes.
Bum is someone who is on the bottom and is not bothering to see the trouble of trying to get out.
-”Many will disagree with you, Tiwaz. You should sue the government and a bunch of public officials for painting a totally wrong picture about Finland’s labor problems.”
Those who disagree that it is idiotic to import more trouble to Finland to increase existing problems are idiots.
You clearly did not get the message, I never have said there are no issues in Finland if there was no immigrants. But the problems would be far smaller if there were no immigrants to make situation worse.
Like rape crime. Like unemployed welfare leeches. Those would exist regardless of presence of immigrants, but more unintegrating immigrants you have, bigger those problems are.
-”I agree but I still do not understand what you mean by “unintegrating immigrants.” Do you mean unskilled workers who have a hard time integrating into the Finnish labor market? And hey, lay off the descriptive and rude adjectives to describe some immigrants. Nobody is using such language to describe Finns.”
Unintegrating immigrant is just what it sounds like. Someone who does not get into their head that this is Finland, that they have to adjust to realities surrounding them instead of stubbornly pretending they are still in Hubbabubba-land.
And yes, I also mean unskilled immigrants who come here. They are often part of previous group though, they refuse to put serious effort to becoming viable workers by learning skills needed in work here.
You know, language, rules of human interaction, work skills…
June 4, 2009 at 1:21 pm
Hi Referee, thank you for sharing your idea with us.
–I don’t understand why any immigrant who is NOT a welfare bum should be offended by Pöntinen’s statement. Quite the opposite; don’t you think it’s everyone’s benefit to keep the bums outside our borders from smearing the image of honest hard working immigrants?
You are absolutely right but it is the message what Pöntinen’s statement makes – it fuels mistrust by “us” of “them.” If we all live in the same country, work, and pay our taxes, we should be all speaking about “us.” There is too much emphasis on dividing two groups that are in reality one: they consider Finland their home.
How would it sound if “them” put an ad in the Helsingin Sanomat and told the Finns to do away with all the alcoholics? The problem with Pöntinen’s statement, in my opinion, is that it labels a whole group.
I agree with all you say about finding skilled immigrants to Finland. It would make life easier for everyone at hand. If unemployment is so high in Finland, why should this country take anyone in — even for humanitarian reasons? Because we are a modern liberal Nordic welfare state that has equality as a societal goal. Our society offers opportunities to others so they may advance and find their places. Or is it only an economic matter — bring skilled labor and when the economy cools, send them back where they came from?
There are many good things about Finnish society. One of the most precious is that we believe in equality (even though this is an ideal). Equality and social rights does not, however, mean that it is applied to one group but to everyone living in this part of Europe.
June 5, 2009 at 6:33 am
“it fuels mistrust of “us” of “them” ”
“Them” meaning actual bums, and “us” including both Finns and non-bum immigrants. I don’t see a problem of mistrusting bums, I already feel that way without adding any fuel.
“if we all live in the same country, work, and pay our taxes, we should be all speaking about “us” ”
Yes, what “if”, but unfortunately in reality there will never be 0% unemployment and 100% employment rates. Not among Finns (unemployment nearly 9%), and much less so among certain groups of immigrants (year after year over 50% unemployment, and as few as 10% at work).
“How would it sound if “them” put an ad in HS and told the Finns to do away with all the alcoholics?”
“Them” as in the welfare bums? Now since you asked, it sounds like good ingredients for a funny comedy scetch to me.
“The problem with Kai Pöntinen’s statement, in my opinion, is that it labels a whole group”
It labels disco money seeking aslym seekers, beggars from Rumania, refugees with false grounds etc. I don’t see a problem. None of the immigrants I’ve talked about this with have felt personally labeled. They are not bums so why should they?
“why would this country take anyone in – even for humanitarian reasons? Because we are a modern liberal Nordic welfare state that has equality as a societal goal”
We are and will be that as long as we can afford it, as long as the ratio between net tax payers vs welfare receivers is on a sustainable level. As you have emphasised many times over and over, the age pyramid is developing to an alarming direction so we are already drifting towards difficult times in terms of maintaining the welfare state. On top of that, we could choose to take in groups who burden the system much more than contribute to it if we want to make sure our welfare state, equality and liberal values become history even faster.
But I want to choose the scenario where we focus our limited resources to take care of our ageing population who built this country with hard work, instead of distributing the fruits of that hard work to any random aslym seeker who wants to come in and get their share of the welfare cake.
Enrique, I am a realist, not an idealist so I make choises and I’d rather compromise the ideal of equality for the whole world at any cost, than follow those ideals at the cost of collapse of our welfare state which was built by those who live here, for those who live here.
“Our society offers opportunities to others so they may advance and find their places”
There are many who year after year don’t seem to advance and find their places. When their number grows high enough, the worse scenario i.e. collapse of the welfare state will take place. Growing numbers of aslym seekers only fuels this process.
June 5, 2009 at 7:37 am
Referee, let me make one thing clear to you and everyone – the word “bum” is a highly charged one that only fuels passions in one direction and the other.
–Yes, what “if”, but unfortunately in reality there will never be 0% unemployment and 100% employment rates. Not among Finns (unemployment nearly 9%), and much less so among certain groups of immigrants (year after year over 50% unemployment, and as few as 10% at work).
Where did you get the 50% unemployment rate figure for foreigners? Just a curiosity. Of course there will never be 100% unemployment. Even so, our society understands this perfectly well and that is why it has a comprehensive social welfare netowrk.
–It labels disco money seeking aslym seekers, beggars from Rumania, refugees with false grounds etc. I don’t see a problem. None of the immigrants I’ve talked about this with have felt personally labeled. They are not bums so why should they?
You have not, nor has Pöntinen shown, any empirical study that reveals how many so-called immigrant “bums” there are in Finland. Furthermore, if you are talking about these people that beg on the streets, what are we speaking of? 10s? 100s? 1,000s? Get you calculator and calculate what percentage they comprise of the immigrant community. The sum, I believe is very tiny. It is a storm in a teacup. And is it the way we resolve things among Finns by labelling others as “bums?” Begging in our society is seen as a very negative attribute since it runs against our own values. These people come from dysfunctional countries – the type we do not want to copy.
Pöntinen opportunistically used the immigrant-bashing card to get votes. What does this say about his character? Picking on “bums” in order to profit? Pretty sad in my opinion. This election strategy may backfire. If he gets elected, which I doubt, it also shows something about Finnish society.
–Enrique, I am a realist, not an idealist so I make choises and I’d rather compromise the ideal of equality for the whole world at any cost, than follow those ideals at the cost of collapse of our welfare state which was built by those who live here, for those who live here.
So am I and everything should be done to eradicate social security fraud. We should attack white collar crime with the same force. By being a “realist” a society cannot only have economic goals. It has moral ones and values that enable it to pursue economic prosperity. So, being a “realist” is a mix of pragmatism and ideals.
–There are many who year after year don’t seem to advance and find their places. When their number grows high enough, the worse scenario i.e. collapse of the welfare state will take place. Growing numbers of aslym seekers only fuels this process.
This is a good question and it is important to study the causes. However, we live in a democratic welfare society where we are allowed to make choices (either bad, mediocre or good ones). If a group of people do not “advance” at the rate you wish, what should we do with them? Deport them? What would it reflect about our liberal society?
June 5, 2009 at 9:53 am
“Where did you get the 50% unemployment rate figure for foreigners? Just a curiosity. Of course there will never be 100% unemployment. Even so, our society understands this perfectly well and that is why it has a comprehensive social welfare netowrk.”
Referee said “some groups”, not foreigners in general. Try for example “Maahanmuuttajien työllistyminen ja kannustinloukut” (Sisäasiainministeriö, 2009. p. 21). Figures from 2008 tell that unemploymency rate is over 50 for people from Afghanistan, Sudan, Irak and little under 50% for somalis.
Unemploymency rate is calculated from people claiming unemploymency benefits and does not include students, housewives so for some of these groups the actual employmency rate could be quite low.
June 5, 2009 at 11:51 am
“Bum” is charged because of what a bum does. Maybe you have a more PC word for it, but that will not change the issue. See, it is the issue of bums that fuels passions, not so much the word itself. Aren’t Finns always ridiculed for being too serious and unpassionate anyways?
As for over 50% unemployment figures, I didn’t say it is the “foreigners” rate, but certain groups of them. See for yourself the official unemployment stats for e.g. Somalis, Iraqis, Afghans. Feel free to pick any available year.
The amount of bums depends on the definition, although I don’t really see how their number in relation to all immigrants is relevant. I’m quite sure that’s how Pöntinen sees the issue too, as apart from non-bum based immigration. The problem comprises of the absolute impact and future development.
Here’s some numbers for you: more than 70% of “under aged” aslym seekers have turned out not to be under age but seeking opportunity by lying their age. More than 40% of aslym seekers are reportedly Dublin cases so they should never have come to seek aslym in Finland in the first place. 90% of aslym seekers have conveniently “lost” any sort of identification documents. How thousands of them still make it all the way to Finland without e.g. a passport makes you wonder.
According to police there are about 150 beggars from Eastern Europe in Helsinki. Their number is not large at the moment but they are clearly seen as a problem by the people who they disturb and commit crimes against (e.g. many thefts have been reported). Most people simply don’t want to see them here, so this is one of the issues Pöntinen is addressing. I don’t really see why the current number of beggars or other bums is relevant as the problem is evident and spreading larger. The problem is real, now it’s been heared and answered.
“We should attack white collar crime at the same force”
You must be aware of “herraviha” in Finland, those who are wealthy and/or powerful do get their share of bashing, not to mention those who are wealthy, powerful AND criminal. It’s quite absurd if you think that the Finnish people turn a blind eye towards white collar crime, that’s in fact someting that fuels passions in discussions among Finns! So what’s the problem if one oddball EU candidate instead “attacks” the welfare bums? Or is it so in your opinion that in order to bash common bums, one must also bash the wealthy criminals??
“what should we do with them? Deport them?”
We can be far more selective of people wishing to immigrate than we are at the moment. Nothing binds us from largely limiting welfare-based immigration. And among those that we grant aslym to, we can choose who we don’t want to keep within our borders infinitely.
“What would it reflect about our liberal society?”
I hope it would send a word out there that our liberal society is not made for everyone in the world but for those that we choose, and we are willing to preserve our society in its current state.
June 5, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Hi Librarian, thank you for the link on immigrant unemployment, which everyone can get a first-hand view.
June 5, 2009 at 12:13 pm
–Here’s some numbers for you: more than 70% of “under aged” aslym seekers have turned out not to be under age but seeking opportunity by lying their age. More than 40% of aslym seekers are reportedly Dublin cases so they should never have come to seek aslym in Finland in the first place. 90% of aslym seekers have conveniently “lost” any sort of identification documents. How thousands of them still make it all the way to Finland without e.g. a passport makes you wonder.
Yes it does make you wonder. When you make these claims you must also have something to substantiate them. What is your source?
June 5, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Sorry Enrique, but I’m a bit lost. You say…
“why should this country take anyone in — even for humanitarian reasons? Because we are a modern liberal Nordic welfare state that has equality as a societal goal”
Are you saying that the path to equality is having more immigrants? Could you please explain this a bit better?
June 5, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Hi Tony, this is an important question: On the one hand it is our humanitarian obligation as a developed country to take refugees. However, if you bring them to this country with little idea how you are going to integrate them into the labor market, the whole plan fails. Part of the humanitarian help should be to help people get a profession and jobs. Certainly the state cannot force anyone to employ refugees, although this could happen in the public sector, but what does this show about our whole program to integrate such people? It shows a pretty ineffective system. So why bring people to a country when getting employment is like winning the Lotto? That was my point.
June 5, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Very well…
Just two points…
“the state cannot force anyone to employ refugees, although this could happen in the public sector”
But if the public sector employs a refugee just because he’s a refugee wouldn’t this brake the equality law? Shouldn’t the job be offered to all and the most qualified get it? Are you advocating the British model of positive discrimination?
“So why bring people to a country when getting employment is like winning the Lotto?”
Agree with you completely, new asylum seekers should not be allowed in until Finland figured out what to do with them.
June 5, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Hi Tony, that is a good question. The same question could be asked of gender hiring, which is higher in the public as opposed to the private sector. But it would make an interesting scenario: instead of paying unemployment they could work. I am not aware of the all the legal ramifications but I think there are a whole bunch of programs to hire long-term unemployed without infringing on any law.
I am happy that we agree on this point. The whole integration program should include an aggressive plan to get these people to work so they can build something meaningful instead of being a number on the jobless claims figures.
June 5, 2009 at 1:44 pm
“What Finland’s immigration policy should be:
1. liberal, proactive towards work-based immigration
2. limited towards welfare-based immigration
3. focusing the humanitarian aid where the problem is, instead of opening the doors to the problem.”
This is nice but this is not what Finnish government is after today. They are after multiculturalism. The need for skilled people, although real, will never be tackled, it can’t because the government needs it to keep pushing the multicultural agenda.
Take other countries where mass immigration has been reality for long time. Look at the foreigners holding high skills jobs, the vast majority are westerners. Europeans, Americans, Canadians, etc. We see some Indians in the IT industry or healthcare but they represent a low percentage from the total. The non westerners in those countries usually holds low skill jobs. We easy see how the public sector is craze trying to fulfill the quotas, but they just can’t. Of course the apologist PC brigade “explain” this buy calling the system “discriminatory”, but what else can you expect?
Once I said to a guy that I live in a multicultural house state in Finland. I said that I have a Norwegian and a Scotch neighbor. The guy laugh at my face. He said “you are all white blond, blue eyes Christians. What kind of multicultural place is that? Are you mad?”…
That’s the main vision. That’s why high skills employees are so necessary but yet they open the doors for asylum seekers. Finland is not interested in more westerners, it has enough. We don’t really build a multicultural society. You have to have a dark skin, funny beard, wear strange clouts, chant weird mantras, and if possible burn national flags while shouting “behead the infidels” to really be a building block of a multicultural society. Just with these people we can achieve a “diverse”, “rich” and “modern” society.
Apparently the Finnish immigration service has reassessed the situation in Iraq, but HS report this week that about 1300 Iraqis waiting for a decision from the immigration service will get residence. So doing a bit of math (those people can bring in their families). If we count an average a family of 4 members (for and Iraqi this is joke but anyway). 1300×4 makes 5200. So if Finland closes its borders today, we will still have 5200 un-skilled, un-literate, primitive, welfare bums coming to enjoy the new life in Finland, courtesy of Finn and non Finns tax payers.
Make no mistake, Finland is poisoned to be the next Sweden. Espo probably next Malmo and if we are really luck Tampere the next Limerick, but this only with Allah’s help…
June 5, 2009 at 2:09 pm
“Yes it does make you wonder. When you make these claims you must also have something to substantiate them. What is your source?”
http://hommaforum.org/index.php/topic,7717.0.html
June 5, 2009 at 8:46 pm
In looking at all the ways of getting into Europe — with or without a passport — we seem to forget the basic fact: these are people who come from war-ravaged countries. This is what the Huomenta Suomi program forgets to mention. A total lack of empathy and understanding for people who are refugees fleeing war. As far as the Finnish police is concerned, the old idea before EU membership was to keep “foreign criminals” from coming to Finland. This also included suspicion for foreign investment as the Restriction Act of 1939 showed. This was the general attitude in the 1980s and still is what motivates a lot of police today. Thank god that Finland became a EU member in 1995 and did away with some — not all — of this type of thinking by the Finnish police.
June 6, 2009 at 10:27 pm
Its polices work to keep criminals out.
And now some numbers.
1,000,000,000 people live under 1$/day
3,000,000,000 people live under 2$/day
9,200,000 people have fleed war to other countries.
25,000,000 people are internal refugees.
So how many of these we should get in finland? Im sure they all want to come…
e.g. Somalia grew 439,893 people between 07-08 (2,305,529
between 00-08), shouldnt we freight then out of that inhumane place?
From 1995 decisions made in 2008 only 89 were real refugees and 785 got some other permit to stay. And in average they cost 12,000e/y while they wait decision. “Child” costs 57,000e/y and as you see most of them lie their age. With amount what one lying asylym fisher costs we could give schoolyear to 4750 real childs in Nepal, think about it.
And of course there are gems like that ruandan man who costs few hundred thousands…
And other what i wonder is why people who flee from country does holiday trips or wartrips in there… Flights Stockholm-Bagdad are almost sold out for this summer..
June 7, 2009 at 12:03 am
Finnish people should be left alone and they should also leave the World alone. Close your Embassies around the World, recall all your citizens around the World to come home. Close all borders with 500 feet of walls surounding the whole Finland. Withdraw from United nations and the EU and leave all World bodies. Restrict traveling overseas by Finnish Citizens and no one should be allowed to your country as well. Please do us a favour, no importation of food or other raw materials from outside Finland. Eat your potatoes, wheat and pigs as in your good old glorious days. Send every foreigner out of Finland. Finland! oh Finland! take this action and the World will leave you alone and you will become immigrant free country.
June 8, 2009 at 12:39 am
How to be a 21st Century immigrant:
1. Flee your shitty country because it is so horrible.
2. Do not assimilate into new country’s culture.
3. Burden social welfare system until it collapses.
4. Purposefully mold your community into a replica of the place that you fled!
5. Eat beans
6. ????
7. PROFIT
June 8, 2009 at 4:15 am
-”In looking at all the ways of getting into Europe — with or without a passport — we seem to forget the basic fact: these are people who come from war-ravaged countries. This is what the Huomenta Suomi program forgets to mention. A total lack of empathy and understanding for people who are refugees fleeing war. As far as the Finnish police is concerned, the old idea before EU membership was to keep “foreign criminals” from coming to Finland. This also included suspicion for foreign investment as the Restriction Act of 1939 showed. This was the general attitude in the 1980s and still is what motivates a lot of police today. Thank god that Finland became a EU member in 1995 and did away with some — not all — of this type of thinking by the Finnish police”
Boo-fucking-hoo. So they come from war ravaged nations. So EVERYTHING they do is A-OK, because they ran away from war.
How about fighting that war and ENDING it? You know, Finns did send some children (and these were actual children) to safety when war hit our country. But men remained behind to fight that war so that we have peaceful country to live in today.
Instead, they immigrate here to bring their failed society to enrich us. Refusing to integrate and bringing whole extended family with them. None with any useful skills, large portion refusing to adjust to surrounding realities of living in “not-home”.
If I have to choose between tossing them back to their hellhole of a nation and having them import their hellhole to my home, I choose tossing them out.
Because no amount of “integration programs” will ever work. Because integration starts and ends between ears of immigrant. If they really want to integrate, they will. If they really do not want to, there is no way for them to integrate.
June 8, 2009 at 9:13 am
So what a night… Soini is the great winner. Congratulations Finland for speaking out…
Let me make things clear. I don’t support Soini or True Finns, in fact I don’t even know much of their policies. I’ve always support Kokkomus, but in this elections I’m glad Soimi made it , and with such impact. Let explain why…
If I was in Finland I would definitely campaign for him, for the very same reason probably the majority of the 120K voted for him. To give the government a wakeup call. Make no mistake this result is nothing but the Finns rejecting, among others, the currently immigration policy.
The Finns don’t want Finland be the next Sweden, neither do I. So they shouted. The government has two options, keep on not listen to the people, let the doors open, and keep using the usual “populist” and “racist” to “explain” the current mood. Or they can prove that Finland is in fact a democracy and start to listen and take action before the far right holds more power. My grandfather died fighting fascism and I don’t want it back, but things just can’t keep on going the way it’s.
People are just sick and tired of this… (from HTimes)
“The Interior Ministry mentions as an example someone applying as an unmarried minor but, after receiving a positive reply, attempting to bring a spouse and children to Finland on the basis of family ties.”
This guy should be deported immediately but we know he won’t and his family will be here in no time. And this is just a tip of the iceberg. Enrique once said that immigration is not out of control, maybe not yet, but with this new alien act, it can be very easily, and once it’s done there is no way back… Look at our neighbour.
If anyone from this government happen to be reading this, a word from a immigrant…. Listen to the people for fucking sake…
June 8, 2009 at 9:13 am
“Because no amount of “integration programs” will ever work”
No money or effort in this world will integrate people who insist in not integrate. I have posted this here extensively.
Just a bit from Luton in the UK…
“SHAHED, the leader of the Luton branch of the extremist Islamic group Al Muhajiroun,…”
“Shahed claims to have 50 members and 200 adherents, most of them young, extremist and second-generation Asians…”
“Al Muhajiroun has a policy of discouraging young people from attempting higher education… I know of many young people who have become linked to this group who have given up their education…”
So who is alienating who?
“Al Muhajiroun claim you cannot get a proper education in a country which is not a religious state…”
Now the best part…
“Sayful (another member of Al Muhajiroun) meets me at his semi-detached rented home in Bury Park, Luton’s Muslim neighbourhood. He no longer works, even though he is able-bodied, he admits, preferring instead to claim housing benefit and jobseeker’s allowance. He smiles sheepishly and says the irony is not lost on him that the British state is supporting him financially, even as he plots to “overthrow it”.
Ladies and gentlemen with you Al Muhajiroun, the voice of Luton…
June 8, 2009 at 9:13 am
“And other what i wonder is why people who flee from country does holiday trips or wartrips”
This is really amazing… There were a report here in Ireland some time ago showing that majority of Nigerians after been granted subsidiary protection start to go back to Nigeria for holidays twice an year. Of course someone “explained” that having holiday in their country is their “human rights”. But I wonder if their life are no longer in danger… Interesting…
Some people of course goes back for a more “important” trip. From my previous post…
“But Swedish security service Sapo reports the increasing number of Swedish men with Somali background who has returned to Somali to fight with al-Shabaab, a terrorist group.”
“M I6 report that more than 4k British muslins have gone to Afghanistan to fight with Taleban.”
Is going back to fight alongside terrorist also their human rights?
June 8, 2009 at 11:10 am
From today’s HS…
“Immigration and the potential problems it brings with it can no longer be suffocated into silence in the political arena.”
So now it’s no longer “challenges” but problems. Interesting…
I started to have hope in the future… God bless Finland… Well done guys…
June 8, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Just a temporary stray, Tony. Soon we will again be shown a well-integrated working immigrant as an example of how we can’t survive without immigration and from there it’s the usual short leap to how we can’t afford to turn down any aslym seekers.
And since the model immigrant – no matter if he’s Irish, Dutch, Japanese, whatever – really does enrich the society, the only right conclusion must be that ANY immigration on whatever basis from whichever culture brings only positive enrichment and Finns must adapt to it.
June 8, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Juuso, if this is the way you speak of immigrants, then you must also include Finns who migrated in the last century. You also do not get it: living in the 21st century isthe capacity to live with difference. You seem to fail in this test. Living with diversity and difference will be the biggest challenge in the new century. It can go either way.
And, hey, what is wrong with beans? Ever eaten good old fashion chile con carne? Ask Tony if he like to eat feijoada. Please read the Finnish constitution and get informed about the values of our society because you seem to be in the dark about them as well as about international cuisine.
June 8, 2009 at 5:12 pm
–And since the model immigrant – no matter if he’s Irish, Dutch, Japanese, whatever – really does enrich the society, the only right conclusion must be that ANY immigration on whatever basis from whichever culture brings only positive enrichment and Finns must adapt to it.
Immigration is immigration. It is positive because their labor brings economic benefits to the country. You cannot be that naive to think that Finland is inviting labor immigration because “Finns want to intermingle with cultures.” The fact that we live in a multicultural society brings cultural and it too benefits. It is a two-way street.
June 8, 2009 at 5:39 pm
Hi Toni, if 40% of the population voted, I would not call it a “shout.” Certainly the success of far-right parties in other European Union country shows a change at the expense of the Socialists, who did dismally in the elections. Moreover, if you are talking about 4,000 asylum seekers last year, is it possible that voters are crying “bloody murder” concerning Finland’s immigration policy? These people you speak of are not labor
There is, as you know, a very big difference between immigrant and refugee.
But I do I agree that Finland does not really have a comprhenshive immigration policy since there is high unemployment among some national groups. What about talking about the successful immigrants like you? Certainly there are many cases that can be cited. Another matter that worries me is how many labor immigrants want to move to Finland? Finland is going to have a tough time getting these types of people to fill jobs when more of the baby boomers retire. It will then be an economic problem that will impact Finland. Not a nice situation.
June 8, 2009 at 5:43 pm
Tony, I think if you look at Finland’s history especially in the past century, outsiders have been seen as a “problem.” Since you are from Brazil, do you consider yourself as a potential “problem” to this society? What about all those who work hard, pay taxes and live in this country? Do you think it is fair to state that “immigration and the potential problems cannot be quelled?” You have to be more specific. Are you speaking of EU immigration (you cannot stop it because it is one of the EU four freedoms), non-EU immigration or refugee policy?
June 8, 2009 at 5:56 pm
–Boo-fucking-hoo. So they come from war ravaged nations. So EVERYTHING they do is A-OK, because they ran away from war.
Sorry, Tiwaz, but I would talk about this with a shrink.
June 9, 2009 at 4:20 am
I would imagine that immigration, in relation to the labor market, is a topic that public office administrators in Finland are constantly re-evaluating. Due to the competitive nature of the global economy, the “welfare bums” seem to be a necessary outcome of a process that emphasizes that supply and demand tend to regulate itself through the workings of the free market. One way wages are kept down is through the excessive supply of labor. Finland is notorious for outsourcing jobs to the underdeveloped countries specially the garment industry. There’s a direct correlation between the low employment rate in the 1st world and high employment rate in the 3rd world Finland’s employment in this industries went down to -71% while in Mauritius (which I’ve never heard of before) , went up to 344.6 %!. So, immigrants are used to keep wages low at home. They a ready labor force waiting on the wings to work for practically nothing. I’d say the cost to the economy is minimal given the benefits derived.
June 9, 2009 at 4:53 am
-”Sorry, Tiwaz, but I would talk about this with a shrink.”
No, I talk about it with you. Because YOU pretend that their traumatic (which apparently is not so traumatic considering how many of them like to go visit their horrible homeland as pointed by Tony) is some kind of carte blanche to act as they please.
Because clearly we can’t expect them to learn to act like civilized beings after being through war.
I say again, I do not care where or what kind of conditions you come from. When you immigrate to new country, get a grip of yourself and learn how that society works.
Do you think it was easy for Finnish wartime generation? Men specifically? No. Talking to any veteran will reveal they are still hurt from all the crap that took place. But they did not revel in it, they did their best to push it to side and became productive members of society.
-”Hi Toni, if 40% of the population voted, I would not call it a “shout.” Certainly the success of far-right parties in other European Union country shows a change at the expense of the Socialists, who did dismally in the elections. Moreover, if you are talking about 4,000 asylum seekers last year, is it possible that voters are crying “bloody murder” concerning Finland’s immigration policy? These people you speak of are not labor
There is, as you know, a very big difference between immigrant and refugee.”
It is a shout, because 60% are content with outcome whatever it may be. Despite best efforts of multiculturalists, 60% did not activate to take their banner.
Umayya Abu-Hanna for one was nowhere near passing to EU parliament. But Soini got enough votes to have split them in two and still go through with BOTH halves.
And there is little difference between immigrant who has no skills useful in Finland and refugee who has no skills useful in Finland.
Both are totally useless until they dig their head out of their arse and figure out that they have to change to fit into this society, not expect society to appease them which is your preferred method Enrique.
June 9, 2009 at 11:48 am
“I would not call it a ‘shout.’”
Enrique my friend you are truly a multiculturalist (Does this word exist?).
Sticking the head in the sand won’t make the reality change. Finland doesn’t want the social reengineering called multiculturalism, what is completely different than healthy immigration. The Finns and many immigrants like myself wants to keep Finland the way it is. Even HS has admitted that immigration has been the issue in this election. Just you don’t want to see it.
Again from today’s HS…
“The singular exception was Timo Soini of the True Finns, who gathered his massive haul from all parts of the country, according to Statistics Finland”
“Across the entire country, Soini swept up more than 130,000 votes, putting himself into 5th place on the all-time lists and becoming only the ninth candidate to break the 100,000 votes barrier”
Let’s admit, the guy kicked some arses… And I’ll say it again, mostly not because his policies but because people don’t want the same mistakes other countries made repeated in Finland. They accept immigration but they don’t want bad immigration.
They don’t want people who plays the race card to get whatever they want. People who call discrimination every time they lose a job for a more qualified Finn. People who insist in not integrate and demand changing in the society to accommodate what they believe Finland should be. They don’t want Finland transformed in Somalia, Iraqi or Afghanistan. And neither do I. Multiculturalism transforms and we just don’t want that. Pure and simple…
And they spoke out… And I’m glad about it… Hyvä Suomi…
June 9, 2009 at 12:54 pm
And talking about multiculturalism…
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1175221/The-Muslim-cleric-blames-British-mosques-7-7-bombings-says-multiculturalism-disaster-throw-Islamic-fanatics-out.html
“The Muslim cleric who blames British mosques for the 7/7 bombings, says multiculturalism is a disaster and would throw Islamic fanatics out”
“I will give £5 to anyone in Britain who wants to live under Sharia law,’ he declares. ‘It will help pay for their ticket to Sudan, Yemen, Pakistan, or wherever it is customary to live under Sharia law. Please, please go and leave us alone. This is Britain, not 10th century Arabia!’
Isn’t this racism? Oh sorry hi’s not white so he can’t be a racist…
“’It is the extremist ideology present in many UK mosques which is the cement behind nihilistic plots such as this(7/7 bombings),’ he says”
Isn’t the so called “alienation” responsible for the attach?
Guys just pay attention to that, my favourite part…
“He has little or no time for the Government’s ‘pussyfooting’ policy of encouraging multiculturalism. “
I just love this guy…
“’That is the biggest disaster to happen to Britain since World War II,’ he says. ‘It has given the extremist mullahs the green light for radicalism and segregation”
Well I understood that we segregate them…
“We have to, we must, adjust to British society”
Really????
But unfortunately hi’s not the Islam. This is…
“In an age when the highest-profile Muslim preachers are bearded, anti-Western firebrands such as Abu Hamza or Omar Bakri Dr Hargey seems an anomaly. “
If they are anti-Western why are they in the West? Is it because the dole? Good question…
“Hardly surprisingly, such statements have made him wildly unpopular among those who adhere to the brand of ultra-conservative Saudi-funded Wahhabi Islam which currently makes most noise in Britain and around the world.”
And with Mrs Thors help in Finland too…
“Certainly, if you Google Dr Hargey’s name you will find him vilified as a ‘charlatan’ on any number of Islamic website forums…English-language Muslim Weekly newspaper, which had accused him of being a heretic. “
As I said he’s not Islam, this is…
“…when his phone rings now it is still almost as likely to be an anonymous death threat as a request for spiritual guidance.”
June 9, 2009 at 5:12 pm
http://www.mtv3.fi/uutiset/ulkomaat.shtml/arkistot/ulkomaat/2009/06/895384
Multicultural party in multicultural australia where all live in peace with eachother.
June 9, 2009 at 5:16 pm
And our failed immigration policy…
“Among very recent immigrants, only those born in Southeast Asia had unemployment rates, employment rates and participation rates that were more or less on par with the core working-age Canadian-born population.
Those born elsewhere in Asia (including the Middle East) as well as individuals born in Latin America, Europe and Africa all had higher unemployment rates and lower employment rates in 2006 than their Canadian-born counterparts.
Working-age immigrants born in Europe had 2006 labour market outcomes that were similar to the Canadian born, but this was the case mainly for recent and established immigrants.
Immigrants born in Africa experienced difficulties in the labour market, regardless of when they had landed. The estimated 70,000 very recent African-born immigrants had an unemployment rate of 20.8%, more than four times higher than that of the Canadian born.”
That looks like what it is in finland but i assume they get more educated people from africa.
June 9, 2009 at 6:01 pm
Hi Enrique, I would imagine that immigration, in relation to the labor market, is a topic that aspiring public office administrators in Finland are constantly re-evaluating. Due to the competitive nature of the global economy, the “social welfare bums” seem to be a necessary outcome because of an economic process which emphasizes that the supply and demand regulates itself through the workings of the free market. Granted, one way to keep wages down is through the creation of an excessive supply of labor (immigrants). Also, Finland is notorious for outsourcing jobs to the underdeveloped countries, specially the garment industry. There seems to be a direct correlation between the low employment rate in the 1st world and high employment rate in the 3rd world. In the case of Finland employment went down to -71% while in Mauritius (which I’ve never heard of before) , went up to 344.6 %!. So, immigrants apparently are used to keep wages low at home. They are a ready labor force that’s waiting in the wings to work for practically nothing. I’d say the cost to the economy (the capitalist) is minimal given the benefits they derived from it. No doubt that irresponsible politicians such as Kai Pöntinen are going to jump on this opportunity to bash the immigrants to try to broaden their voter base among the domestic labor force.
June 9, 2009 at 6:37 pm
Hi Diego, immigration in Finland is a bit different from Southern California. Here the unions are fighting tooth and nail not to allow cheap labor to get in. However, I think that will be difficult since labor, as you point out, is a commodity. I think Marx used the term labor-power. Even so, we are a long way off the 19th century and there are a lot of big questions that EU countries such as Finland face. Kai Pönttinen did not get elected. He did dismally so there is a lot of hope for Finland that people will not fall for these type of cheap tricks. Good to hear from you.
June 9, 2009 at 6:42 pm
–Sticking the head in the sand won’t make the reality change. Finland doesn’t want the social reengineering called multiculturalism, what is completely different than healthy immigration. The Finns and many immigrants like myself wants to keep Finland the way it is. Even HS has admitted that immigration has been the issue in this election. Just you don’t want to see it.
Hi Tony, nobody is sticking his head in the sand. Maybe you are too optimistic about what one person can do. Soini is one person and protest votes went to him in a low voter turnout of 40%. It is all right to be a charismatic leader in the eyes of some Finns, it is totally a different thing to change matters as one party and one person. Democracy does not work that way since it is characterized by a doses of bargaining and consensus.
Even if Soini “kicked some arses” as you point out, that is about the only thing he will be able to do.
–They don’t want people who plays the race card to get whatever they want.
Don’t you think, amigo Tony, that in retrospect that when you make such a statement your group is playing the exact game?
June 9, 2009 at 7:25 pm
Hi Enrique, What exactly is a “welfare bum immigrant”?
June 9, 2009 at 8:17 pm
Sorry Enrique but you definitely didn’t read what I wrote… Who said Timo will do anything? And who said I hope or expect anything from him?
I think I was very clear about it. I don’t support him or his party. My enthusiasm is about the fact that the Finns gave the government a wakeup call. The only body capable of doing anything is the Finnish bloody parliament. As far as I remember Finland still is a parliament based democracy, although I know that many community leaders would like that to change for something more “enriched” like a Islamic dictatorship.
I hope this will be the domino effect that could make the difference. As I said, yesterday HS was already reporting that discussion about immigration can no longer be suffocated. Today they go further…
“…the number of immigrants coming into Finland will increase many times over on the basis of family unification. This especially applies to asylum-seekers from Iraq and Somalia…They are being driven to Finland especially by the tighter immigration policies of our neighbouring countries, and by the good level of Finnish social welfare.”
Social welfare? I read somewhere that this is not true. Did I?
“From the point of view of security officials, there are risks inherent to a strong increase in immigration, which could lead to serious problems for security. Risk factors include increases in crime, gang formation, violence, and disturbances of the peace.”
Ups… Did he say this out loud?
“Such events have been seen in Europe – in Sweden and France, for instance… According to the prevailing opinion of European security officials, another danger in immigration is the infiltration of terrorists into the flows of immigrants.”
“An additional challenge stems from the fact that asylum-seekers who constitute a threat cannot always be sent back to their countries of origin; their security situations can be so bad that sending them back is impossible for humanitarian reasons.”
Of course not, their “human” rights are more important than our children lives…
Now this is serious…
“In certain suburbs of Helsinki and Turku, the proportion of foreigners in the population has risen as high as 30 per cent. According to some studies, such a large concentration of immigrants can lead to uncontrolled ethnic isolation of the communities. To prevent such problems there have even been proposals of enacting a partial curfew…”
Curfew? in Finland? for fucking sake, is this called “enrichment”?
“These suggestions underscore the seriousness of the problem… The unrest caused by an atmosphere of marginalisation, rootlessness and anger are compounded, and spread to other similar suburbs”
Common Enrique we wouldn’t read this kind of article 2 weeks ago would we? We would not be able to see how bad things can get. 2 Weeks ago we would be getting the usual “don’t worry honey, everything is under control” mambo jambo.
Maybe you are right. Maybe I’m too optimistic. Maybe in few months all discussions will be suffocated again and the “let everyone in” policy will continue. But for the sake of my children I just can’t help but hope…
June 9, 2009 at 8:19 pm
Don’t you think, amigo Tony, that in retrospect that when you make such a statement your group is playing the exact game?
I want to give you an answer but I didn’t understand you question. Sorry.
June 9, 2009 at 8:39 pm
Hi Diego, a “welfare bum immigrant” means a person who moved to Finland to only take advantage of the welfare system.
June 9, 2009 at 8:55 pm
–I think I was very clear about it. I don’t support him or his party. My enthusiasm is about the fact that the Finns gave the government a wakeup call. The only body capable of doing anything is the Finnish bloody parliament. As far as I remember Finland still is a parliament based democracy, although I know that many community leaders would like that to change for something more “enriched” like a Islamic dictatorship.
I don’t think that any sensible person wants a dictatorship of any kind in this part of the world. Maybe we should look at what Barak Obama said in Cairo to the Muslim world: “So long as our relationship is defined by our differences, we will empower those who sow hatred rather than peace, those who promote conflict rather than the cooperation that can help all of our people achieve justice and prosperity. And this cycle of suspicion and discord must end.”
–“These suggestions underscore the seriousness of the problem… The unrest caused by an atmosphere of marginalisation, rootlessness and anger are compounded, and spread to other similar suburbs”
I have not read what you have said, but as a person researching immigrants in Finland I believe there is a strong case for what you said. What would you do if you come from a failed country, have been unemployed for years and find Finland a dead-end society. I would leave but for some it is not that easy. What do you think should be done to break this vicious cycle?
June 9, 2009 at 9:00 pm
What I meant, Tony, was that if we see other groups with the same hostility as ours, we maybe no different than them. Fanatics that you speak of relish in our indifference because it gives them strength and power. They can point to their people and show how much they are hated and how little of a chance they have to be a part of our society. The fanatics are always a minority but they have the ability to influence people who may not think like them but succeed at converting them into their blind disciples. Let’s not give them that opportunity.
June 9, 2009 at 9:03 pm
Tiwaz, here is something for you that President Barak Obama said in his landmark speech in Cairo: “As a student of history, I also know civilization’s debt to Islam. It was Islam — at places like Al-Azhar — that carried the light of learning through so many centuries, paving the way for Europe’s Renaissance and Enlightenment. It was innovation in Muslim communities — (applause) — it was innovation in Muslim communities that developed the order of algebra; our magnetic compass and tools of navigation; our mastery of pens and printing; our understanding of how disease spreads and how it can be healed. Islamic culture has given us majestic arches and soaring spires; timeless poetry and cherished music; elegant calligraphy and places of peaceful contemplation. And throughout history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the possibilities of religious tolerance and racial equality. (Applause.)”
June 10, 2009 at 5:33 am
Enrique, Barak Obama is guy with money and power. He has ability to talk BS for political gain since he has nothing to fear.
As for Muslim achievements. Yes, they managed to present much scientific stuff in ages long gone, large portion of it was actually just preserving Greek knowledge which was lost in Europe.
So what?
That time was centuries ago. Back then, Islam was perhaps progressive. But then they hit the brakes and stopped still. Europe did not.
Today Islam tries to live as if world was still in Middle ages. What have they given to this world TODAY?
Last century?
Let’s sum it up as nothing. Terrorism, violence, barbaric practices…
Today Islam does not demonstrate any of the things Barak tries to complement. It does not show great tolerance, where Islam manages to gain strong hold it tries to squeeze the life from all competition. It does not show peace, it seeks to spread through violence. It does not show progress of knowledge, it seeks to deny science and stick to old book full of fairytales about God.
It denies social progress, GAYS MUST BE STONED AND WOMEN MUTILATED FOR IT IS WILL OF ALLAH!
If this was Middle Ages, I would admire Islam. But this is not. This is 21st century, Islam is by and large still stuck on 12th century. They have to work really hard to switch those numbers around.
June 10, 2009 at 5:43 am
As for Obama and his “pearl” of wisdom that we should “concentrate on similarities not differences”. It is also stupidity.
When machine does not work, it does not work. You do not fix it by staring at parts which DO work, but looking at parts which do NOT work.
Same with cultural conflict. Closing your eyes and hiding head in sand will not make problems go away. It will just let them fester and grow bigger and more radical.
Until there is no longer any way to prevent violent outburst.
Cultural contact SHOULD pay lots of attention to differences, because if those are ignored they will lead to conflict. And in immigration, it should be made clear from day one to everyone that native culture has right of way. Immigrants adjust.
Because no alternative works on long term.
June 11, 2009 at 12:25 pm
“You also do not get it: living in the 21st century isthe capacity to live with difference.”
At least we know now that you support female circumcision… after all it’s some peoples culture and we must learn to accept it. Right?
I’m not going accepect your constant bitching.
June 17, 2009 at 6:37 am
Enrique: These people come from dysfunctional countries – the type we do not want to copy.
But you do – thats multiculturalism. You want us to respect their dysfunctional ways and let Finland be destroyed as theres a few thousand dysfunctional countries in the world. Because wanting Finland to stay Finland is racism and xenophobia and blaa blaa blaa. We must embrace dysfunctionality and celebrate it!
June 17, 2009 at 1:36 pm
–Enrique: These people come from dysfunctional countries – the type we do not want to copy.
Of course we do not want to copy them because we are an example of a well-functioning society. However, I do not agree with your predictions on what multiculturalism will do to Finland. It does not take into account that people change and actually may like living in this country. Multiculturalism in my opinion means an acknowledgment by the dominant culture that it accepts and respects minorities. By respect I mean MUTUAL respect.
–Finland is racism and xenophobia and blaa blaa blaa. We must embrace dysfunctionality and celebrate it!
Your sarcasm has a tragic-comic flare to it.
June 19, 2009 at 8:41 am
Multiculturalism has a tragicomic flair to it. How about facing the fact that Finland is Finland. People come to Finland because they want to, as it is Finland. If Finland was a foreign country then nobody would want to be here – theres cheaper countries out there. If yoiu want to live in Canada go to Canada – I want to live in Finbland.
July 2, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Concerning that Supreme Court judgement cited by Referee in the posting on June 4, 2009 at 10:21 am, how many of you actually bothered to read the judgement to the end and see how the case turned out?
If anything, this case merely illustrates a peculiarity of the Finnish social security system. The outcome will come as no surprise to anyone who understands the corresponding system in the UK, for example, where it has always been perfectly legal to claim benefit under a false name, provided that the applicant’s financial circumstances are correctly reported and the applicant does not claim the same benefit twice over.
Nothing in this case suggests that the defendant was not genuinely seeking work and/or training, so it is far from clear how the idea of a “welfare bum” can apply.
August 25, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Let’s get some perspective here, fellow commentators.
“Immigrant” does not equal any of these things: non-white, Moslem, rapist, circumcised female, pedophile, criminal, thief, unemployed, unemployable, homophobic, murderer, prostitute, stupid, lazy. It seems from these comments that some of you are assuming it does – all these and a lot of other things besides.
“Non-white” and “Moslem” also don’t equal each other; nor does either of them equal any of those other things on the above list.
Stop judging people on the basis of one of the many labels they bear. Stop spreading bigoted hate and associating whatever you find repulsive with people based on their legal situation. There’s terrible power in such associations. Let each person’s actions speak for himself; not the actions of others in his situation.
Written by a Finnish immigrant to Belgium who neither does drugs nor is a prostitute.
August 25, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Hi Victory, thank you for sharing your powerful thoughts with us. I could not agree more with what you said! Thank you for clearing the heavy air that sometimes permeates to this blog.