I was pretty surprised that a recent Helsingin Sanomat editorial on the EU parliamentary elections, which affirmed at the end that “immigration and the potential problems it brings with it can no longer be suffocated into silence in the political arena.”
One of the problems with such a statement is that it not only obfuscates the real issues while showing some ignorance of the subject by Finland’s leading daily. When the editorial speaks of “immigrants” is it referring to EU immigrants, labor immigrants or refugees?
What kinds of “problems” does the editorial make reference to? Is it high unemployment, discrimaintion or Finland’s wayward immigration policy?
Moreover, I would not consider immigration an issue per say in Finland because there are so few of them to start with. At the end of 2008, they numbered 143,256, which is about 3% of the population. As we all know, 37% of the immigrants living in Finland are EU nationals.
If there are some issues that “can no longer be suffocated in silence” the editorial should have taken the question even further. If it was addressing immigrants, where unemployment stood in September at about 17%, it should ask why this country’s immigration policy has failed to integrate a large number of people into the labor market. In 1994, foreign unemployment stood at a lofty 53%!
Jobless figures, which show over 50% unemployment in some national groups, would dwarf high jobless claims of American Indians, one of the most marginalized groups in the United States.
When it comes to addressing a question like immigrants in Finland, one of the matters that politicians cannot do is vacillate opportunistically to check what voter sentiment is. As members of this society, it is the role of the state and its elected officials to protect and defend the rights of all people living in this country.
For this reason, it is odd that politicians as well as an editorial speaks of immigrants as a group that can be kicked around at will and addressed in general terms. Certainly this is an easy today since there are so few immigrants in Finland. They are still not a visible political force to contend with.
One bright side of the EU parliamentarian elections was that Kai Pönttinen’s plan to bash”welfare immigrant bums” in order to get votes backfired. If he was so worried about “weflare bums,” why didn’t he just state “welfare bums in Finland?”
As the recession deepens so will attitudes towards immigrants and refugees. The temptation to pick and target this group in order to make an editorial sexier or to secure votes will, unfortuantely, grow.
Let’s deal with the “immigration problems” openly without hostility and populism.
June 10, 2009 at 5:04 pm
“If it was addressing immigrants, where unemployment stood in September at about 17%, it should ask what this country’s immigration policy has failed to integrate a large number of people into the labor market. In 1994, foreign unemployment stood at a lofty 53%!”
Are you referring to EU immigrants, labor immigrants or refugees? I remember you said that we shouldnt address asulym seekers like other immigrants but there you do it again. What jobs here is for uneducated illiterate people?
“As we all know, about half of the immigrants living in Finland are EU nationals.”
Lie
“If he was so worried about “weflare bums,” why didn’t he just state “welfare bums in Finland?””
Because we just cant kick people out but we can keep people out, first thing to do would be lower disco money like germany, pick only best on quota refugees as USA and canada and deny family reunion from africans like USA. Currently here comes more by asulym than by work permit…
June 11, 2009 at 4:41 am
-”Moreover, I would not consider immigration an issue per say in Finland because there are so few of them to start with. At the end of 2008, they numbered 143,256, which is about 3% of the population. As we all know, about 40% of the immigrants living in Finland are EU nationals.”
So you do not want to address problems until they are so big that you can’t hide them behind useless rhetoric and thus are already so big that easy solutions are impossible?
Immigration IS a problem every time it is not carefully controlled and limited. This is what we have seen in every country trying open borders principle and multicultural society. Finland is yet to end up in same deep trouble as those nations, but only by taking action now, when problems and amount of immigrants are low we can avoid it with leas problems for everyone.
-”If there are some issues that “can no longer be suffocated in silence” the editorial should have taken the question even further. If it was addressing immigrants, where unemployment stood in September at about 17%, it should ask why this country’s immigration policy has failed to integrate a large number of people into the labor market. In 1994, foreign unemployment stood at a lofty 53%!”
Why? BECAUSE THE IMMIGRANTS DO NOT WANT TO INTEGRATE!
You can’t integrate someone who refuses to put forth the effort to learn local language and culture.
It is failure of IMMIGRANTS, not failure of Finland. Failure of Finland is not to push the issue to immigrants and force them to start doing the hard work.
-”When it comes to addressing a question like immigrants in Finland, one of the matters that politicians cannot do is vacillate opportunistically to check what voter sentiment is. As members of this society, it is the role of the state and its elected officials to protect and defend the rights of all people living in this country.”
Except we Finns have rights too. Or did you again forget that? WE HAVE RIGHTS TOO. I have right to expect service in Finnish when I go to store. I have right to walk down in Helsinki during night without fear of yet another immigrant youth gang picking me as easy target for satisfying their hatred for Finns and Finland.
My wife has right to walk in that same area without fear that she ends up gangraped by immigrants, potentially mutilated with scissors to add up to it.
We have right to deny foreigners their cultural norms if they interfere with our culture and lifestyle in Finland.
People of Finland, the majority, are getting sick and tired of problems coming from growing immigrant population who refuses to accept fact that this is not Hubbabubba-land.
-”Let’s deal with the “immigration problems” openly without hostility and populism.”
Problem is, only solutions you want to hear are ones that put Finns on their knees and gives immigrants preferential treatment.
That is not going to work, and by you and large portions of immigrants clinging to it and failure called multiculturalism, you deny possibility of non-hostile solution.
June 11, 2009 at 6:47 am
–So you do not want to address problems until they are so big that you can’t hide them behind useless rhetoric and thus are already so big that easy solutions are impossible?
In dictatorships they arrest “potential” criminals and terrorists. Please acquaint yourself with the law before making such a ludicrous statement.
–My wife has right to walk in that same area without fear that she ends up gangraped by immigrants, potentially mutilated with scissors to add up to it.
They call this xenophobia.
June 11, 2009 at 8:05 am
-”In dictatorships they arrest “potential” criminals and terrorists. Please acquaint yourself with the law before making such a ludicrous statement.”
What an idiotic statement from you. Who said to punish immigrants? Nobody. But it is established that unintegrating immigrants create much more crime than native population. And other problems. (look at Malmö, look at Paris)
My point was that this must be prevented beforehand, which does not mean punishing immigrants as criminals but making it clear that they have no option “no integration” if they want to stay.
-”They call this xenophobia.”
So wanting to live safe, stable life is xenophobia?
How about familiarizing yourself with cultural habits of your “enriching” immigrants.
http://www.uusisuomi.fi/kotimaa/25527-tampereella-kolme-raiskausta-naitko-sina-jotain
http://www.kaleva.fi/plus/juttu621642_page0.htm
I guess you belong to people mentioned here:
http://yle.fi/poliisitv/raportit.php?sivu=raportti_ulkosex
“Jostain syystä ulkomaalaisten tekemistä seksirikoksista ei haluta puhua, niitä ei haluta tulkita ja on näyttöä, että niitä on yritetty jopa lakaista maton alle. Tilastot eivät kuitenkaan kaunistu hiljaisuudessa. Jonkun täytyy avata suunsa. Se joku näyttää olevan useimmiten hentoinen nainen Pasilan poliisitalolta, rikosylikonstaapeli Marja Vuento. ”
“Ulkomaalaisten osuus seksirikoksiin epäillyistä koko maassa on ollut 2000-luvulla noin viidennes. Helsingissä seksirikoksen tekijäksi on 2000-luvulla epäilty ulkomaalaistaustaista keskimäärin joka kolmannella kerralla. Viime vuonna epäillyistä 36 prosenttia tulee muualta kuin Suomesta. Ja nyt puhumme poliisin tietoon tulleista, aikuisiin kohdistuneista seksuaalirikoksista, emme pelkästään raiskauksista. Eli mukana ovat myös sukupuolitekoon ja -yhteyteen pakottamiset sekä seksuaaliset hyväksikäytöt. ”
Yay! One in five sexual crimes in Finland in 21st century has been done by person of foreign origin.
But of course this should NEVER be mentioned in public, god forbid that problems would be dragged screaming and kicking into broad daylight so something could be done.
We all just have to sit quietly and nod head when Enrique and his kind tell us how wonderful it is when Finland becomes “multicultural” and how problems will vanish.
And we Finns must hang our heads in shame, because it is our racism and xenophobia which cause all these problems.
June 11, 2009 at 8:17 am
“They call this xenophobia”
Well I call this reality…
June 11, 2009 at 8:17 am
“What kinds of “problems” does the editorial make reference to?”
How about those? From HS…
“Risk factors include increases in crime, gang formation, violence, and disturbances of the peace. Such events have been seen in Europe – in Sweden and France, for instance.”
“…the editorial should have taken the question even further”
They did they published an interview with Iikka Salmi chief of SUPO and Jorma Vuorio director-general of the Finnish Immigration Service. Interview that would never been publicised if wasn’t by the wakeup call given by the Finns. Huva Suomi…
“Jobless figures, which show over 50% unemployment in some national groups”
Perhaps Somalis, Iraqis and Afghans, un-literate primitive people that can’t hardly write their own name?
“…politicians cannot do is vacillate opportunistically to check what voter sentiment is.”
So Finns do play race card, but a Somali caught without a ticket in the train doesn’t… Interesting.
“…there are so few immigrants in Finland.”
Again from HS…
“In certain suburbs of Helsinki and Turku, the proportion of foreigners in the population has risen as high as 30 per cent. According to some studies, such a large concentration of immigrants can lead to uncontrolled ethnic isolation of the communities.”
So we let Turku be the next Malmo than we can talk about…
“…language teaching for immigrants should be increased significantly.”
So tell me Enrique, would be fell happy if you have to wait 3 hours more in the hospital with your child sick because 1 doctor has been replaced by 5 language support teachers? Would be happy to pay the price for a more “enriched” society?
June 11, 2009 at 8:30 am
“…it should ask why this country’s immigration policy has failed to integrate a large number of people into the labor market.”
Of course the country’s immigration policy IS the responsible for the failure… All the immigrants going to Finland are complete different that those going to Ireland, UK and Sweden.
All Iraqis have PhD from Harvard. The Somalis doctorate from Oxford and the Afghans masters in science from MIT…
Why you bloody Finns didn’t integrate such exuberant group? You racists…
June 11, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Tony, society is for all types. We do not have to have a PhD to be accepted. Any simple profession would do.
June 11, 2009 at 12:25 pm
-”Tony, society is for all types. We do not have to have a PhD to be accepted. Any simple profession would do.”
But modern, IT society does not need hundreds upon hundreds of people who only know how to herd goats!
There is no “simple profession” in Finland. Simpler it gets, more essential it is to SPEAK FINNISH and understand Finnish behavior. Unless they do, they are unemployable without any useful skills and thus only drain to society.
Only really niche level specialists can afford to not speak Finnish to find a job. But there is no request for niche job of goat herding.
That is fact of life which you and so many immigrants fail to grasp.
June 11, 2009 at 12:26 pm
And by the way, this society is not “for all types”. We still hold right to deny those we do not like entry to this country.
And I think it is starting to be just about time to exercise that right far more than we currently do.
June 11, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Tony, any type of phobia is harmful to mental health.
June 11, 2009 at 12:34 pm
–Perhaps Somalis, Iraqis and Afghans, un-literate primitive people that can’t hardly write their own name?
You know, Tony, because of my educational background and the opportunities I have had professionally, it would never come to my mind to make such an affirmation about a WHOLE nation or a WHOLE national group in Finland. If you have a masters, you should know a little about the dangers of making generalizations. Or is it a South American thing on how some see poor people (illiterate, useless and expendable)? I think that if you have had to opportunity to educate yourself, your understanding for others should grow. But then again some people are different.
Sorry, but your affirmations are alarmist. If they came from SUPO, they are equally alarmist. The SUPO source is only one source we should hear from others. It is advisable to question sources. Remember what happened with the CIA on Iraq? I could give a long list of false alarms to justify some means.
June 11, 2009 at 1:26 pm
“Tony, any type of phobia is harmful to mental health.”
Yes and your telling this to me because? What I sais is that Tiwaz fear is not phobia but reality…
Try to ask to people from Limerick. They can tell you about their “phobia” of been mugged by an African.
June 11, 2009 at 1:26 pm
“…make such an affirmation about a WHOLE nation or a WHOLE national group…”
You are right about that. That was a very strong and destructive comment and I take it back. Sorry.
But I keep my point, the state is not responsible for the non integration of people who insist in not integrate. I’ve already posted here several testimonies from people within telling how Imams preventing their flock from integrating. I think because your educational background and the opportunities you had you should know “why this country’s immigration policy has failed to integrate a large number of people”.
You just can’t integrate who refuses to…
“Sorry, but your affirmations are alarmist…”
Well here in Ireland, in the UK and Sweden they don’t look so alarmists, they are more like normal daily life…
“The SUPO source is only one source we should hear from others…”
That’s interesting, when we hear one source only (the Somalis) describing how “discrimination” is alive Finland , that was enough to draw a conclusion that this is true. So apparently Somalis have more credibility than Finnish security officers…
June 11, 2009 at 2:33 pm
“As we all know, about 40% of the immigrants living in Finland are EU nationals.”
Ahh you changed that, real figure is 36,24% so you still round it “wrong”, about 35% is closer. 3,76% is 5386 people so i say thats a lot.
“Sorry, but your affirmations are alarmist. If they came from SUPO, they are equally alarmist. The SUPO source is only one source we should hear from others.”
There is SÄPO and PST
http://www.savonsanomat.fi/uutiset/ulkomaat/ruotsi-ja-norja-pid%C3%A4ttiv%C3%A4t-6-iskujen-valmistelusta/81821
Ruotsin ja Norjan turvallisuuspoliisit pidättivät yhteisoperaatiossaan tänään yhteensä kuusi terroriepäiltyä. Pidätyksiä tehtiin Tukholmassa ja Oslossa. Tukholman seudulla pidätettyjä kolmea miestä epäillään terrori-iskujen valmistelusta ja ääriryhmien rahoittamisesta. Myös Norjan poliisin kuulustelemaa toista kolmikkoa epäillään terroristien rahoittamisesta ulkomailla.
Nothing to worry, only terrorists in nordic countries…
“it would never come to my mind to make such an affirmation about a WHOLE nation or a WHOLE national group in Finland.”
Oman haasteensa tuovat muun muassa turvapaikan saaneiden koulutuksen ja asumisen järjestely. Esimerkiksi Somaliasta tulevista 90 prosenttia on luku- ja kirjoitustaidottomia.
So only 90% now coming somalis are illiterate, nothing to worry they find a job soon…
Of course we can think out of the box like Stenseth…
Stenseth ehdottaa, että Norjaan tuotaisiin kameleita työllistymishaasteellisten sudanilaisten ja somalialaisten kasvatettavaksi. “Yritämme ajatella uudella tavalla. Tässä on kyse siitä, että hyödyntäisimme pakolaisilla jo olevia taitoja”, Stenseth perustelee. Mongoliassa ja Tiibetissä kuulemma elää kamelirotuja, jotka saattaisivat pärjätä Norjan oloissa.
June 11, 2009 at 2:44 pm
And the Finns are against foreigner culture… If that was just true…
http://www.helsinkitimes.fi/htimes/culture/6701-a-little-bit-of-rio.html
“Sequins, feathers and Brazilian rhythms in Senate Square mean only one thing: the Helsinki Samba Carnaval.”
“Brightly-clad samba dancers take over Helsinki city centre this weekend for a celebration of Brazilian music and dance…… the Helsinki Samba Carnaval is a proper Rio de Janeiro-style street party, and is the only Finnish festival listed among the Top 50 European Local Festivities.”
So the only Finnish festival in that list is in fact a Brazilian festival…
They are not against foreigner culture, for fucking sake, they are against BAD culture. Take a look at these pics…
“Imperio do Papagaio”
http://www.papagaio.fi/img/fi/pressikuvat/IdoP_asetelma_m.jpg
“Samba Carioca”
http://www.carioca.fi/index.php?page=cariocashow
And my favourite (I used to mess around there from time to time).
“Uniao da Roseira”
http://www.roseira.net/images/060805roseira026.jpg
Look at all those faces, they are all FINNS… not Brazilians imposing our culture through their throats.
Honestly Enrique do I have anything to complain about? Huva Suomi…
June 11, 2009 at 7:43 pm
Hannu, I am using the 2008 Väestörekisterikeskus Taskutieto 2008 that states that there were 49,416 EU citizens out of a total of 132,632 immigrants, which is 37.247%. But that is not the point. Who cares. Are USAmericans or Icelanders “inferior” because they are not EU citizens? This is a dumb discussion.
June 11, 2009 at 8:32 pm
Im using stat.fi what is online service for all kind of statistics. According to that here was in 2008 143256 foreign nationals and of those 51914(36,24%) were from EU, 218626 foreign born and 76477 (34,98%) of those were born in EU. Are they inferior? You tell me, it was you who used it as excuse to not worry about immigration.
Do you have some kind of problem with truth or when people dont just believe but check “all know” things themself too?
Btw usa 2282 + iceland 121 = total 2381 so not even near 5386
June 11, 2009 at 8:39 pm
Hannu, what is the point you want to make? I am totally in the dark why this is such an issue to you. I made a mistake with the first percentage. So what? It has been corrected. Are you know going to group the EU nationals into different categories? What is the point?
June 11, 2009 at 8:58 pm
Point is you used “we all know” and wrong percentage, then you corrected it to right way but still added 3% to top even you knew exactly how much of foreigners are from EU.
So it seems you want to exaggerate their proportion of immigration. Why you group immigrants EU nationals and others? what is your point?
June 11, 2009 at 9:08 pm
http://pxweb2.stat.fi/database/StatFin/vrm/vaerak/vaerak_fi.asp
There is address to statistics. And you find lot of info on there so no need to “mistake” anymore.
Offtopic. Here was end of 2008 157 15 to 19 year old girls who speak chinese as their motherlanguage and 3 10 to 14 year old girls who speak wolof but only one 20 to 24 year old girl who speaks cree. What was point of this? To show that there is details and lots of info if you only want to look
June 11, 2009 at 9:42 pm
Thank you for the link. It is very comprehensive.
June 12, 2009 at 4:09 am
-”But that is not the point. Who cares. Are USAmericans or Icelanders “inferior” because they are not EU citizens? This is a dumb discussion.”
In some ways, yes. They are not members of EU, thus their citizens do not enjoy same privileges as EU citizens.
Icelander and American cannot expect to just inform police that they are residing in Finland like for example Belgian. They need valid reason for residence permit, to apply the permit and be granted this permit.
Furthermore, issues with immigrants do not tend to come from western societies. I think that huge majority of Americans who come to Finland CAN read and write. And to my knowledge those skills are found in around 99% of Icelanders.
They are not uneducated, completely unskilled people who can’t put their name in a goddamn paper to save their life.
But even with THESE benefits, Americans and Icelanders have to adjust to Finland. There is no need for cowboys or trawler crews in Finland. Immigrating Americans and Icelanders have to have skillsets which are somehow useful in Finland if they want to find a job.
And finally, even when they fail to get a job and so forth… American and Icelandic immigrants do not tend to get themselves vastly overrepresented in crime.
I wonder why… Could it be… Far smaller cultural gap between their culture and Finnish culture than Somalian and Finnish culture?
June 12, 2009 at 7:09 am
–They are not uneducated, completely unskilled people who can’t put their name in a goddamn paper to save their life.
This is a lot of phony bologna. Please cite your source that states that the majority of people who apply for refugee status are illiterate.
June 12, 2009 at 7:59 am
Here is one example:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/SO.html
Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 37.8%
male: 49.7%
female: 25.8% (2001 est.)
Where is your proof that majority of refugees do read and write?
Or read and write FLUENTLY.
Oh yes, and IN FINNISH.
And who actually have skills useful IN FINLAND.
There is reason why there are so much unemployed immigrants, they have NO SKILLS USEFUL IN FINLAND.
June 12, 2009 at 8:23 am
There we go…
http://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/artikkeli/Turvapaikanhakijoilla+joukkotappelu+jalkapallo-ottelussa/1135246809811
“Turvapaikanhakijoilla joukkotappelu jalkapallo-ottelussa”
Before someone run to the keyboard and ask my head on a plate, let me explain my point. I’m not posting this because the fight itself, everyone knows that English people are well known by their hooliganism. But I noticed 2 things here…
First is that now the media is more open to shown the “challenges” posed by asylum seekers.
Second is that I don’t see any “specialist” “explaining” why this happened and why we should “understand” them. Some change in the HS editorial line perhaps?
Apparently this autumn the Finnish Parliament will vote amendments to the Alien Act. That should tighten the asylum rules. Perhaps now with enough pressure the Parliament (see Enrique not Timo but the Parliament) will do its job close the door…
June 12, 2009 at 8:23 am
“If there are some issues that “can no longer be suffocated in silence” the editorial should have taken the question even further.”
Will this do it?
From Helsinki Times…
“SUPO: Extremist groups in Muslim countries supported from Finland”
“Radical groups fighting in foreign conflicts are suspected of receiving support from some within the immigrant community in Finland, reports the national daily Helsingin Sanomat.”
“’There are strong signs that groups and networks taking part in conflicts in various Muslim nations receive support from Finland,’ writes Ilkka Salmi, the head of the Security Police (Supo), and Jorma Vuorio, the Director General of the Finnish Immigration Service, in the Helsingin Sanomat on 7 June.
So we give them the dole and they give it to terrorists…
Tell me Enrique does this fulfil our “humanitarian obligation as a developed country”?
June 12, 2009 at 8:40 am
Talking about Americans and Africans let give a bit of my experience about this.
In my years in Finland I met about 15 Africans, most from Somalia. I used to meet them every Sunday in the English Service in Tampere Pentecostal church. Take my word, all of them with no exemption hated Finland with all their heart. Two Somali teenagers used to say very loud during the coffee break how they wish to “have a talk” with a Finn and laugh about it. Another guy, a father of 2, told me once that as longer as he lives he will teach his children to hate this country and its people. Needless to say all very much enjoying the generosity of Finnish tax payers.
Also…
I met 3 Americans. All engineers, 2 seniors, working for Nokia. Like me all adapted to the Finnish culture and integrated very well. All of them and their families very happy living in Finland. No complaining, no demanding just building their future.
Can we see some difference here? With attitude will help to build the society with will destroy it?
I know that 18 people is nothing comparing the total of foreigners living in Finland but that is my experience nevertheless…
June 12, 2009 at 9:01 am
Sorry Tiwaz but I’ll challenge your point a bit…
For that matter I’m illiterate, I don’t read, write or speak Finnish, neither those Americans I mentioned before. But I consider them and myself as a example of susses.
The other hand we had here in this same forum some time ago , if you remember, someone who was fluent in Finnish but yet has been kicked out from Finland for posing a threat to its security.
Listen, I’m undermining the need to speak the local language, it’s very important, but Finnish language without a positive attitude and more important without respect won’t work either.
SUPO reports that who poses the biggest threat to Finland in the second generation of asylum seekers. I’m sure all speak the language fluently.
June 12, 2009 at 10:56 am
Hi Tony, you make some very good points. What Tiwaz is suggesting is that Finnish culture is standing on such a high pedestal looking down on people who do not know the language. If they do not learn it is there fault. However, I believe there has to be a general atmosphere of acceptance of immigrants by the dominant culture. Under acceptance come opportunities such as jobs, which is vital. If a culture is hostile and very selective of immigrants it is a bit like a despotic regime: it represents only a minority at the cost of the majority. Why should anyone want to accept and live under such a regime. Suspicion is a big element of how despotic regimes function.
So, if I live in a country where I have suffered hostility, discrimination and do not even have the basic right to find decent work, why will I be motived to study its language? I understand that this is a wrong attitude because it creates a vicious circle.
June 12, 2009 at 10:59 am
–Can we see some difference here? With attitude will help to build the society with will destroy it?
I think there are some differences, Tony. You are well adapted because you have a profession, are employed supposedly in a good job with future and are white. All these factors fuel your integration and notions about Finland. The Somalis, however, are not in the same boat. I don’t think Somalis or other groups that come here arrive with a “kill Finland attitude.” This happens later and slowly when they become disappointed and estranged.
June 12, 2009 at 11:05 am
The first question I would ask is if the conflict they are taking part in constitutes a crime in Finland? Certainly if it is linked with a terrorist organization it does. What about the French that went to fight in the Winter War? What about left-wing people who fought in the Spanish civil war? If I wish, I can join the foreign legion. That is not a crime. Is fighting in Iraq against the US forces breaking the law in Finland? It depends from which angle you look at it.
Another question: If these extremist group in Finland exist, why haven´t they been arrested and tried? I think that opens an interesting question on why this story is being pushed by SUPO? How many “extremists” are we speaking of? Why has this story appeared today? If you look at the story, it does not even get a mile from these questions.
June 12, 2009 at 11:12 am
Tell me Tony, are you guy who has no education at all?
Like I said, if you are high enough on educational ladder, you can stand a chance to pass without need of fluent Finnish spoken or written, but as you drop downwards you enter area where you can’t do that anymore.
You and your friends represent highly educated workforce, refugee immigrants represent lowest educated workforce.
As for security threat, as threat indeed second and third generation are most dangerous, because they are essentially rootless and left drifting. Which makes them easy pickings for radicalist movements.
And yes, they are often also on welfare.
But my point was on actual refugees and immigrants, who have no education and no sufficient basic skills required in Finland. In essence, this time I was speaking from employment angle, which I should have made more clear.
Only thing that keeps first generation immigrants reasonably moderate is fact that they still have feeling of belonging, they have connection to their country of origin.
June 12, 2009 at 11:13 am
Hi Tony, I don’t think that this shows more “courage” from the Finnish media to point out problems. Back in the early 1990s, when some 200 Somalis asked for asylum, the Finnish media had a field day portraying this as an “invasion” to the country. Remember the football hooligans in England, Germany, Italy clubbing and splitting heads in two? When we look at that news we say that the European hooligans are a bunch of sickos with rage-control problems. When we look at asylum seekers fighting we confirm in our minds that these people are not fit to live in this country.
As you know, I am against fighting and if I would give asylum seekers the same warning as you probably would – for your actions you will be judged many times harder by public opinion than if Finns did the same thing. The fact that we still think it is sexy to read these types of stories shows that on the immigration-acceptance scale, we are still at a very rudimentary stage. The fight shows poor choices by the organizers who did not take all the worst-case scenarios into account. But was it such a big fight? Nobody got hurt and no heads were split. The story is a small brief.
June 12, 2009 at 11:32 am
-”I think there are some differences, Tony. You are well adapted because you have a profession, are employed supposedly in a good job with future and are white. All these factors fuel your integration and notions about Finland. The Somalis, however, are not in the same boat. I don’t think Somalis or other groups that come here arrive with a “kill Finland attitude.” This happens later and slowly when they become disappointed and estranged.”
Well, who is to blame? We Finns for expecting people to have competence to do their job or Immigrants who fail to obtain it?
It is not OUR fault they are uneducated and unskilled lot. If they can’t work, they will not find work. And to work, you need skills.
-”Hi Tony, you make some very good points. What Tiwaz is suggesting is that Finnish culture is standing on such a high pedestal looking down on people who do not know the language. If they do not learn it is there fault.”
Hey, this is FINLAND! Here Finnish culture IS on pedestal, because it is way of the land.
If you do not learn, it is your fault. Because nobody else can learn for you.
-”However, I believe there has to be a general atmosphere of acceptance of immigrants by the dominant culture. Under acceptance come opportunities such as jobs, which is vital.”
No, with SKILLS come jobs. You still fail to grasp that there are NO JOBS FOR GOAT HERDERS IN FINLAND.
If guy can only herd goats, he is essentially useless in Finland.
It is not our duty or responsibility to establish goat herds here so that some immigrant can pretend doing something useful.
And what is more important than native culture accepting immigrants, is that immigrants understand and accept native culture to be the way of the land. Our land, our way.
-”If a culture is hostile and very selective of immigrants it is a bit like a despotic regime: it represents only a minority at the cost of the majority.”
Not if it represents majority of people of the country. We Finns do not want more welfare bums to our country. We want skilled, integrating immigrants who can work here.
Nobody has “right” to come here to better their life at our expense.
-”So, if I live in a country where I have suffered hostility, discrimination and do not even have the basic right to find decent work, why will I be motived to study its language? I understand that this is a wrong attitude because it creates a vicious circle.”
THERE IS NO RIGHT TO “FIND” A JOB! YOU HAVE TO _QUALIFY_ FOR A WORK.
Job is not human right, it is something you obtain with your skills.
June 12, 2009 at 11:46 am
Tell me Enrique, since you want to have immigrants get jobs they have no skills for…
Would you like your surgeon to be trained professional or immigrant who got the job because he “had” to get a job?
Would you trust your child to teacher who has no competence but was hired because he is another immigrant who had “find” a job?
Would you feel relaxed in a bus where driver is immigrant without grasp of his job but was hired so he could “integrate” through this work?
Would you trust plumbing of your house if it was made by unskilled immigrant who cannot understand what papers in front of him say either because he can’t read or because he can’t read Finnish and proceeds to do the job as he sees fit?
June 12, 2009 at 11:54 am
As for jobs these people _might_ be able to work in…
What are you going to do to Finns who work in that area? For example cleaning… There just aren’t enough cleaning jobs for everyone to get one. Amount of cleaners required is VERY finite.
So if we declare that every immigrant must have right to such job. What rights Finns have then? There are lots of low to no education Finns as well. Where are they supposed to get their money? Or do not Finns have same right to job as immigrants?
June 12, 2009 at 1:07 pm
You are right about the fight, it was nothing, I think the troubles in Helsinki last Wednesday were far worst, wasn’t?
But I said that. The fight itself wasn’t my point. My points were the media willing to report it, and most important no one “explaining” it. Pure and simple.
June 12, 2009 at 1:24 pm
–Hey, this is FINLAND! Here Finnish culture IS on pedestal, because it is way of the land.
Yes, true, but that’s not how it works in a company, family or society. You can have a slave-driver attitude towards others and be chronically exclusive. The aim of society is to integrate its members. It is a two-way street.
–And what is more important than native culture accepting immigrants, is that immigrants understand and accept native culture to be the way of the land. Our land, our way.
What do you mean? Becoming Lutheran and speaking with a Savo accent? You don’t get it, Tiwaz. Finland is a modern society where the different is a salient characteristics. Modernity means living in culturally diverse societies. That is why we speak of “tasa-arvo” in Finland. Equality doe not mean between Finns but between all of its parts regardless of ethnicity, religion, national background etc… Please read the Constitution (Section 6).
–Job is not human right, it is something you obtain with your skills.
True, but it is a right. If a country lacks the ability to employ people it loses them to other countries.
June 12, 2009 at 1:34 pm
–So if we declare that every immigrant must have right to such job. What rights Finns have then? There are lots of low to no education Finns as well. Where are they supposed to get their money? Or do not Finns have same right to job as immigrants?
No, of course not. I believe there should be competition in the labor market as well as in other parts of the economy. However, if a country like Finland with its labor market system sees unemployment rise well over 10% and more and more people are being hired by employment agencies, then that is the failing of the system. Imagine how a persons life is wasted when he works in the same job for 40 years? Think about the innovation and the loss to society when people who get a job just stay there for decades? The person and society loses. The Finnish labor market, in my opinion, is rigid and driving itself in a hole. How do you explain still high unemployment after a number of years of robust growth? At the end of the day it is competitiveness that keeps economies afloat and this includes the labor market. The immigrants, skilled or unskilled, play an important role in this respect. And what must scare some people in Finland, they will work twice as hard without the coffee breaks and for less. However, is the Finnish labor unions able to fight for immigrants’ rights and equal pay? This is the key issue. But looking at the present ideological state of the unions, I am pessimistic in this respect.
June 12, 2009 at 2:07 pm
“Imagine how a persons life is wasted when he works in the same job for 40 years?”
So do you think a person should change job from time to time?
I think so to, it refreshes you and also the company gets new blood, but unfortunately this is not well seen by the recruiters.
June 12, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Amigo Tony, you are absolutely right. You make a valid critical point. When it comes to stories as these, the media may report it or leave it alone. Helsingin Sanomat has practiced this type of journalism back int he cold war years. It never wrote condemned in an editorial the invasion of Czechoslovakia by the Soviet army in 1968, among other matters. You may ask why I bring this up. The reason is that a democratic society has separations of power (legislature, executive, judiciary) and this is what makes it different from an autocratic regime. The press, which also has to enjoy freedom because it fuels that vital separation of powers, was not very separate from the government when it came to foreign policy. It was censorship and self-censorship at its best thanks to Finlandization. We should make sure that we never fall in such a trap no matter what kind of neighbor(s) we have.
June 12, 2009 at 4:19 pm
Well good to see this blog active again. I think we had a good discussion last few days, I hope we keep it up…
Have all a great relax weekend.
Enrique, a veces no estamos de acuerdo, pero siempre es un placer hablar con usted.
Saludos mi amigo.
June 12, 2009 at 6:35 pm
About that multicultural football, nothing new.
http://i10.tinypic.com/6433l8h.jpg 2007
http://www.iltasanomat.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/uutinen.asp?id=1532612 2008
We have so much to learn how to play football and take those richening ways in our games too!
http://hommaforum.org/index.php/topic,8276.msg131755.html#msg131755 Racist and suspicious finns doubted that “mukavan oloiset pojat” could play football peacefully, when they learn that suspicion is bad!
June 12, 2009 at 7:03 pm
Si es verdad, Tony. Espero que pases un buen fin de semana y muchas gracias por tus opiniones.
Hasta la próxima,
Tu amigo Enrique
June 13, 2009 at 12:34 am
Britain “Unemployment is high and educational attainment is the lowest among ethnic minority groups.”
USA “In 2006, it was estimated that well over 50% of Somali immigrant adults were still unemployed, even after 5 years from their arrival in Lewiston as reported by William Finnegan of New Yorker Magazine[4]. A 2008 report by the State of Maine’s Department of Labor confirmed the anecdote showing unemployment at 51%.[5]”
Australia “Among Somalia-born people aged 15 years
and over, the participation rate in the labour
force was 41.7 per cent and the unemployment
rate was 30.8 per cent. The corresponding
rates in the total Australian population were
64.6 and 5.2 per cent respectively. ”
Canada “The number of Somalis who have good jobs has not changed since the 1990’s when Somalis first settled in Toronto. Less than 10% of Somalis have what can be described as satisfactory jobs. The jobless number hovers at around 70%. More than 50% of Somalis, including large families, live in government housing.”
As you said “it should ask why this countrIES immigration policy has failed to integrate a large number of people into the labor market”, is problem us or somalis when unemployment is high even in “model” countries…
June 13, 2009 at 9:07 am
Hi Hannu, thank you for your post. Could you give me the sources of those unemployment figures?
I found the following at this link., which claims that Somalis had single-digit unemployment in the US while much higher in other countries such as Australia.
One matter you should take into consideration is that this blog speaks about migrant issues in Finland but this does not imply that these issues are only exclusive to this country.
June 13, 2009 at 5:42 pm
I just googled “unemployment somali country” and i know this is about finland but you have praised usa and canada and told that we are xenophobe racist bastards and thats why immigrants fail. Seems world is full of xenophobic bastards who dont understand richness of diversity…
June 13, 2009 at 9:13 pm
Hannu, it is not my style to praise a lot ANY country. All have good and bad points as you know. And I never said Finns are “racist bastards.” It is not my style to address such an issue by using that type of language. So please do not assume (you make an “ass” our of “u” and “me”) nor accuse me of things that I never said.
June 15, 2009 at 4:56 am
-”Yes, true, but that’s not how it works in a company, family or society. You can have a slave-driver attitude towards others and be chronically exclusive. The aim of society is to integrate its members. It is a two-way street.”
Yes it is how it works in society, workplace and family. You have the common rules on what is acceptable and what is not. Some companies define their own “corporate culture” but most non-international companies operate on local culture. That would mean majority of Finnish companies.
It is not about slave-driver attitude, it is about fitting in. If you refuse to fit in, you will not be tolerated for long because you constantly chafe against everyone else. And it is NOT two way street. My way of life is not some kind of trade commodity.
-”What do you mean? Becoming Lutheran and speaking with a Savo accent? You don’t get it, Tiwaz. Finland is a modern society where the different is a salient characteristics. Modernity means living in culturally diverse societies. That is why we speak of “tasa-arvo” in Finland. Equality doe not mean between Finns but between all of its parts regardless of ethnicity, religion, national background etc… Please read the Constitution (Section 6).”
No, adjusting to Finnish culture. Finland is FINNISH society. Huge majority of population, over 5 million of us, practice Finnish cultural tradition as way of life.
As for equality. That is the problem you can’t get over. What YOU consider equality is preferential treatment to immigrants.
All I am saying and demanding from immigrants is to adjust to Finnish society and it’s ways. Not to expect that we appease your immigrant ass so you do not have to bother.
Learn the language, learn how to act. For example, learn to shut up and give pauses in discussions, not try to fill every second with chatter like several South Europeans I know. They cannot grasp that discussion can have pauses, and definition of discussion in Finland REQUIRES pauses.
-”True, but it is a right. If a country lacks the ability to employ people it loses them to other countries.”
No, it is not right. Right is something that is guaranteed. NOBODY had EVER given guarantee that you will have a job in Finland.
As for losing people… I wish. It appears many immigrants are just happy living off the dole while not doing a thing to adjust to Finnish society. If they did leave, it would solve that problem nicely.
It is not duty of Finland to make jobs for immigrants, it is job of immigrants to make themselves employable.
-”No, of course not. I believe there should be competition in the labor market as well as in other parts of the economy. However, if a country like Finland with its labor market system sees unemployment rise well over 10% and more and more people are being hired by employment agencies, then that is the failing of the system.”
It is fault of job security. Once you are hired on permanent contract, ending it is very expensive.
[quote]
Imagine how a persons life is wasted when he works in the same job for 40 years? Think about the innovation and the loss to society when people who get a job just stay there for decades? The person and society loses. [/quote]
Who are YOU to say how others should live their life? If they are happy to work 40 years in same job and they can keep their job. It is THEIR call, not yours.
[quote]
The Finnish labor market, in my opinion, is rigid and driving itself in a hole. How do you explain still high unemployment after a number of years of robust growth? [/quote]
Technology. Finland is too expensive for cheap end manufacturing by hand, that is easily done in slave work conditions in Asia (but perhaps you would love to see that imported to Finland, with Finns being underclass working under control of Holy Immigrants) and will never return to work because here we have protections for workforce against abuse.
At the same time American idea of quartal economy has ruined every long term idea from industry. When only goal for CEO is to increase profit for next quarter to keep his seat it leads to layoffs which have no other justification but making little better numbers for stockholders in this quarter.
[quote]
At the end of the day it is competitiveness that keeps economies afloat and this includes the labor market. The immigrants, skilled or unskilled, play an important role in this respect.[/quote]
No, unskilled immigrants are worthless to labor market of highly industrialized society. They are worthless except in the cheapest, shittiest jobs available where their ONLY worth is in attempt to drive down the wages so that employers can pay peanuts and get job done.
Immigrant workers without skills are worthless.
[quote]
And what must scare some people in Finland, they will work twice as hard without the coffee breaks and for less.[/quote]
Or do not work at all, because they have no skills useful in Finland. Which is often FAR more common than hard work.
I see you try to pretend that every immigrant is hard working hero of employment. Reality is that huge amount of them are useless waste of space, air and money because they have no proper skills.
[quote]
However, is the Finnish labor unions able to fight for immigrants’ rights and equal pay? This is the key issue. But looking at the present ideological state of the unions, I am pessimistic in this respect.[/quote]
Finland has collective contracts for employment. If immigrants are stupid enough to come up with contract for their work which gives them less…
It is THEIR FAULT! You cannot fucking expect Finland to arrange for every immigrant a personal protector to watch over their shoulder.
This is Finland, we expect everyone here to have basic intellect to figure out things. They could start by JOINING A FUCKING UNION if they want it to cover them.
Unions protect their members who pay Union their fees. Not some immigrant who has not contributed single cent towards Union budget.
June 17, 2009 at 6:43 am
What were the figures now…
10% of non-EU residence permits are given due to “work”
so 90% of non-EU are for some other reason, marriage, family reunion etc.
Then we look at the “refugees”. Was it that 2-5% get actually a “refugee status” and the rest get a permit as they can’t be repatriated or for “humanitarian reasons”.
So if we talk about 85% of the non-EU immigrants then and forget those who are here for work and those that are here as refugees. Maybe that might clear it up a bit.
June 17, 2009 at 6:55 am
Oh, politicians & immigration. It seems the “official stance” in some parties is embracing multiculturalism, but it seems in also the Left Alliance and the Greens theres dissident votes demanding a similar stop to the abuse of the system – both before and after the elections. I don’t think anyone except maybe some hotheads in the SKSV are against immigration if its natural. But I think the “open borders” policy along with the impotence of dealing with problems before they escalate makes chewing the propaganda harder as people witness with their own eyes things nobody seems to be dealing with. Add to that the lucrative business politicians, businessmen and lawyers are making out of the asylum seekers I think its too obvious to see who is benefitting of this “multiculturalism” and it isn’t the common folk.