I am not the first person by far to state that multiculturalism, or living in a society with people from different cultural and ethnic backgrounds, does not pose challenges. The gravity of the challenges, however, depend a lot on the dominant culture. Will we accept to live with difference?
Certainly it would be a gross generalization to state that modern Finnish society lives in a sort of time warp where everything is static culturally; that is, there are no cultural and life-style variations.
If you want to understand the challenges of living in a multicutlural society, we would have to study it through a historical perspective. Finns had struggled hard in the nineteenth and early twentieth century for language and cultural rights.
When Finland gained independence in 1917, it started to forge a stronger and real sense of national identity that was hostile to Russia and to a lesser degree to the Swedes, its two former masters. In the nation-building identity process there has naturally been a strong emphasis on “us” and “them.”
This “us” and “them” took us into odd cultural explanations of our origins. Even in the 1960s some academics thought that the we were not even European but some odd group that migrated from central Russia to this part of the world. The emphasis of these types of affirmations must have been to strengthen our uniqueness in relation to others.
These strong nationalistic views were in our laws as well. Up to 1995, when we became a EU member, foreign investment to Finland was dictated by the Restricting Act of 1939, which effectively kept foreign investors out of key sectors of the economy as well as restricted land ownership.
Tough laws were also in force for immigrants who wanted to move to Finland. The message was clear: foreigners were seen as a threat and not as an opportunity.
Certainly history had a lot to do with the enforcement of these laws.
If our history, reinforced by our education, instills a strong sense of nationalism and a hostile view of countries such as Russia, this must also rub off on other national groups that are dissimilar to us. The whole process is not based on general acceptance but on suspicion.
Therefore, one of the challenges that multiculturalism will bring is doing away with some of our old hangups about people from other countries. Some claim that most Finns do not have no problems with this while others may disagree.
I personally believe that the indifference of Finnish society towards immigrants can be seen in high unemployment figures. Even though there are many explanations for this, it is a valid indicator of the immigrants’ position in our society. Finns prize work as their lives. Employment is a ticket to membership in this society – being unemployed means you are out and marginalized.
When foreign unemployment figures get closer to total unemployment, maybe this will also be a reflection that attitudes are starting to change.
Foreign unemployment compared with total unemployment
Year Foreign Total unemployment
1994 53% 17%
1995 49% 15%
1996 48% 15%
1997 44% 13%
1998 39% 11%
1999 37% 10%
2000 31% 10%
2001 31% 9%
2002 28% 9%
2003 28% 9%
2004 27% 8%
2005 28% 8%
2006 24% 8%
2007 21% 7%
2008 21% 6%
Source: Statistics Finland, Ministry of Employment and the Economy

June 13, 2009 at 5:36 pm
When you are talking about foreign unemployment are you referring to EU immigrants, labor immigrants or refugees?
June 13, 2009 at 9:10 pm
They mention “ulkomaalaisten koko väestön työttömyysasteet.” I guess that includes all.
June 13, 2009 at 11:31 pm
http://www.mol.fi/mol/fi/99_pdf/fi/04_maahanmuutto/08_maahanmuuttotilastot/wulktyoll.pdf
statistics 30.4.2007, finn 7% (your list) average nonrefugee countries 12% refugee countries 43,25% average total 20%, that list didnt show all countries but we get idea.
Notice chinese who look like nordic and are well known their ability to speak finnish like finns with 7% unemployment. Good that they are like us so institutional racism and suspicion doesnt touch them.
Unemployment among 15 to 24 year old finns were 19,5% in same time (02/07).
June 14, 2009 at 7:40 am
–Unemployment among 15 to 24 year old finns were 19,5% in same time (02/07).
All types of unemployment irrespective of the person’s background is unacceptable. From EU countries the unemployment rate is 9.57% and non-EU countries it is 34.9%. If age is a factor why there is so high unemployment in Finland among the 15-24-year group, ethnic background could play the same role in Finland. The groups with the lowest immigrant unemployment in Finland are by people who are ethnically similar to us (excluding the Chinese), or the invisible minorities, and highest among the visible minorities.
Thank you for bringing this matter up. You have brought an interesting question to the problem.
June 14, 2009 at 8:22 pm
Age is factor what shows how much experience/education you have, here just isnt really jobs where you can go without. Youre 16 when basic school ends and 19 when vocational school/lukio ends. 22-23 when possible engineering/masters school ends. So you are either looking first job and/or job you can do without school/with low education. You get temp jobs till your “history” shows enough experience that employer dares to give you a permanent position. And “visible minorities” compete with them for jobs.
Those “visible minorities” need courses like
Luku- ja kirjoitustaidon koulutus maahanmuuttajille , PSK-Aikuisopisto, Oulu, 26.10.2009
Luku- ja kirjoitustaitoa maahanmuuttajille , Jyväskylän kansalaisopisto, Jyväskylä, 17.8.2009
Luku- ja kirjoitustaitoa maahanmuuttajille (ABC II) , Jyväskylän aikuisopisto, Jyväskylä, 17.8.2009
Maahanmuuttajan polku ammattiin , Koulutuksen järjestäjä ei vielä tiedossa, Joensuu, syyskuu 2009
Oppimispaja luku- ja kirjoitustaidottomille, 44 ov , Tampereen Aikuiskoulutuskeskus, Tampere, 03.08.2009
Luku- ja kirjoitustaidottomien maahanmuuttajien kotoutumiskoulutus 1 , Kainuun ammattiopisto, Kajaani, 31.08.2009
Luku- ja kirjoitustaidottomien maahanmuuttajien kotoutumiskoulutus 2 , Kainuun ammattiopisto, Kajaani, 31.08.2009
Many of them either havent been in school at all or have very basic education. There is people who dont know what toilet is or what clock is and why clock is important. Even well educated ones can have problems understanting that tomorrow 10:00 really means tomorrow 10:00.
Also you have to understand that some of those visible minorities make employing harder with their demands (alcohol, pork, womans dressing/as boss)
See that many of them start from level of 6y old finn with exception that 6y old already speaks finnish.
Also if they happen to have education/experience it is probably worthless in here so they have start from zero, i doubt electricians, plumbers, lawyers etc are trained same way in 3rd world and finland and possibility that papers are just bought is real.
Also you have to take on count that in time when they have finnish education and know enough language they probably have also finnish citizenship so they are finns in statistics. (somali citizen 4919, born in 6352, language 10647)
The groups with the lowest immigrant unemployment in Finland are people who have good education in area what is needed in finland and found their niche jobs where finnish isnt needed. Engineer in nokia or researcher in university wont need finnish etc.
June 15, 2009 at 10:25 am
Hi Hannu, maybe the problem is that you think people who flee failed states and countries that commit human rights violations are all illeterate. My great grandfather, who left Italy in the 1890s was illiterate. Thanks to the opportunities that Argentina gave to him, he was able to give his children the education he never received in his country. He progressed because the country he lived in gave him an opportunity he would have never received in Italy.
I disagree that Muslims will make demands on alcohol, pork, woman’s dress etc… Your statement shows how little you know about the Muslim community in Finland. You think that when a person comes from another culture his values are not affected by the new country he lives in. Immigrants are culturally adroit and can “travel” in a number of cultures. What is the biggest obstacle they encounter during these “travels?” Discrimination, which has nothing to do with fair play or the values of Finnish society. It is like playing a football match and you use every dirty trick in the book to not allow a person to compete against you. If a person lives in this country, he has EQUAL rights and OPPORTUNITIES to advance. Probably that is one of the roles of discrimination to exclude a group in order not to compete in the labor market.
June 15, 2009 at 11:43 am
-”My great grandfather, who left Italy in the 1890s was illiterate. Thanks to the opportunities that Argentina gave to him, he was able to give his children the education he never received in his country. He progressed because the country he lived in gave him an opportunity he would have never received in Italy.”
He progressed because he lived in age and area where being illiterate was not handicap. We are no longer living in 19th century Enrique, this is Finland and 21st century.
Illiterate and uneducated people have no value for society. We need SKILLED people, not adults who should be put to Finnish ala-aste.
-”I disagree that Muslims will make demands on alcohol, pork, woman’s dress etc… Your statement shows how little you know about the Muslim community in Finland. You think that when a person comes from another culture his values are not affected by the new country he lives in. Immigrants are culturally adroit and can “travel” in a number of cultures.”
You mean like muslim workmate of Tony here did not make demands expecting 24 people to appease his “adroit” immigrant ass.
As for immigrants being “culturally adroit”. Bullshit! SOME of them might be, but those your beloved groups you like to whine being mistreated are culturally as unadroit as you can get. Somali coming from Somalia is not adroit at all. They cannot “travel” in cultures, they expect us Finns to give up our culture so he does not.
-”Discrimination, which has nothing to do with fair play or the values of Finnish society. It is like playing a football match and you use every dirty trick in the book to not allow a person to compete against you. If a person lives in this country, he has EQUAL rights and OPPORTUNITIES to advance. Probably that is one of the roles of discrimination to exclude a group in order not to compete in the labor market.”
I have to say this again…
ENRIQUE! YOU ARE AN IMBECILE!
Immigrants HAVE equal opportunity. It is THEIR problem they have no skills to make them worthwhile employees. What you imagine to be “equal” is essentially preferential treatment of immigrants. You expect that Finnish employers would have to ignore that their wannabe employee can’t speak language, cannot act properly and often can’t read or write.
Immigrants cannot compete because they do not have skills. If immigrant has skills which are needed for work, they are employed.
OPPORTUNITY EXISTS, IT IS IMMIGRANT LACK OF ESSENTIAL SKILLS WHICH KEEPS THEM BACK!
June 15, 2009 at 11:51 am
Here is a challenge for you Enrique.
Name 10 jobs which could be successfully filled by Somalian immigrant who:
1) Cannot speak Finnish.
2) Does not understand what kind of behavior is considered good and proper in Finland.
3) Who cannot read or write.
4) Who has no profession beyond herding goats.
June 15, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Your list of questions reflects your suspicion and prejudice. I have seen at refugee centers asylum seekers who start picking up the Finnish language in a few months. Some pick it up faster while others do it slower. All are eager to learn about their possible new home. ALL can read and write and hey, your fourth point is totally racist. Making such a rude statement anonymously shows more about your character than anything else.
In the US and in other countries, immigrants with improper English skills work at “invisible” jobs. Some are in the agricultural sector, meat-packing plants and as janitors. You do not see them because they do not work with clients but do a specific job that any person with decent intelligence can do. You do not need a PhD to prove your worth in Finland — but that is what you are suggesting.
June 15, 2009 at 12:22 pm
–OPPORTUNITY EXISTS, IT IS IMMIGRANT LACK OF ESSENTIAL SKILLS WHICH KEEPS THEM BACK!
It is a deficient and exclusive labor market reinforced by the unions that keep them out. This system in Finland cannot even hire enough Finns. So, it is exclusive that caters to those who have staff jobs at the cost of those that do not. As the years go by, the situation will get worse. Today about 75% of people at work belong to a union which, if I remember correctly, is a sharp drop from over 80%. This fall will continue as unemployment rises and as more competition comes to the labor market. It means that the unions will have to change in order to keep unemployment and semi-employment down. In a nutshell, it is the ideological crisis that the SDP party is facing today.
So, Tiwaz, since there are few immigrants in Finland you can go around insulting them anonymously. You can even put an ad like Pöntinen did. This happens because immigrants are not yet a political force in Finland. But that day will come too.
June 15, 2009 at 1:04 pm
-”It is a deficient and exclusive labor market reinforced by the unions that keep them out. This system in Finland cannot even hire enough Finns.”
What is this “system” which has to hire people? COMPANIES hire people to fulfill JOBS. If there is no more work needing to be done, there are no jobs.
“So, it is exclusive that caters to those who have staff jobs at the cost of those that do not. As the years go by, the situation will get worse. Today about 75% of people at work belong to a union which, if I remember correctly, is a sharp drop from over 80%. This fall will continue as unemployment rises and as more competition comes to the labor market.”
People do not join the unions because their basic security is ensured by other means as well. Should these securities be removed, union memberships would soar as people would increasingly need union support.
”
It means that the unions will have to change in order to keep unemployment and semi-employment down. In a nutshell, it is the ideological crisis that the SDP party is facing today.
So, Tiwaz, since there are few immigrants in Finland you can go around insulting them anonymously. You can even put an ad like Pöntinen did. This happens because immigrants are not yet a political force in Finland. But that day will come too.”
Day when immigrants have more say in Finland than Finns will never come. Far before that there will be civil war when cultural conflict you are building erupts (refer to Yugoslavia, Somalia, Iraq and so forth) and that will end with immigrant numbers being whittled away.
Sorry, chance that Finns would somehow become second rate citizens behind immigrants will never come, Finns will wake up long before that to tyranny of minority and act against it. As you have seen in current voting trend.
Finns are getting sick and tired of immigrants causing trouble in our cities, and now major parties are starting to realize it as well. So to get voters they will have to take immigrant caused problems to table instead of wishing that they can hide their head in sand.
June 15, 2009 at 1:09 pm
Besides which, you forget that immigrants steadily go native over years. Many have noticed that Finland is so nice place because this is Finland and not multicultural hellhole like their country of origin.
They can be some of the most vocal ones about refusing to give in to demands of immigrants and multiculturalism. Because they know how miserable that system is and how well Finland does compared to it despite flaws of Finnish system.
Here people are EQUAL. You are on same line as everyone else who have same skills. It is your skills which determine what you can become.
June 15, 2009 at 1:40 pm
Sorry Enrique but I can’t use the gross unemployment number to back the theory that Finland is suspicious towards immigrants. To have a strong case your data needs to be beyond doubt. The gross number wont’ just do it…
To really have a case you need to break this number down. You’re saying that some pick Finnish language in few months, but you know that no one can speak a language enough to be productive in few months. The point is how much of the 21% are, in fact, capable of working? For that you need to answer…
Some pick the language faster some slower, are those who pick slower included in this 21%?
How much is few months? 4, 6 , 8, 12? Are those who didn’t reach this few months time included in this 21%? Are the Iraqis, Somalis and Afghans who just came last year already included in this 21%? How about their families? Are all included?
Are all seekers well motivated and willing to learn? If not are those not willing also included?
We know that many Finns don’t work because they just don’t want to. How about immigrants, is there a portion of immigrants who just want to take ease and enjoy the system as some Finns? If so are they also included in this 21%?
And for those who speak the language, do they have education skills to compete in the Finnish job market? Finland tops global school table, you probably know that. Are those who don’t have a reasonable qualification also included in this 21%? (I’m saying reasonable qualification not PhD).
If we break down this number in really capable to work and not really capable to work what we get? 21%, 18%, 15%, 10%?
Also you can’t compare Finland with US. Agriculture in the US runs 12 months per year, not in Finland. In the US many immigrants work as private gardeners, window cleaners, car washers, babysitters, food delivers. There is no such jobs in Finland, you know that. So illiterate people has much more opportunities in US just because those jobs exists in there.
Reasons for unemployment are many, as you know, so I think use the gross number to support that Finland is suspicious towards immigrants is unfair to say the least.
June 15, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Just to summarize what I have said.
1. I’m not denying the problem. I know it well, thrust me. I’m just saying that the gross unemployment number can’t be used to illustrate it.
2. As I have said a number of times, we are the responsible for suspicious against us. We are our worst enemy…
June 15, 2009 at 2:07 pm
And so It begins…
http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2009/06/explosion_rocks_red_cross_reception_centre_805615.html
“An explosion occurred at a Red Cross reception centre in Suomusjärvi in south-west Finland …The centre houses a few dozen asylum seekers”
It’s possible to be the act of some skinheads, but if we see that this kind of behaviour is becoming more and more common in Sweden and in those cases the explosions are carried out to sort out matters between refugees. Shiites vs Sunnis, Turks vs Kurds, Tamils vs Sri Lankans… the list goes on…
And people ask why Finns are suspicions towards immigrants. Well… would, perhaps, the fact that some insist in bring their war with them helps answering this question?
June 15, 2009 at 6:13 pm
“I disagree that Muslims will make demands on alcohol, pork, woman’s dress etc…”
Muslimilääkäri hermostui sianlihasta
Pienessä hämäläisessä terveyskeskuksessa törmättiin etnisiin ristiriitoihin, kun muslimitaustainen lääkäri teki tutkimuspyynnön työsyrjinnästä muun muassa siksi, että työpaikkaruokalan listalla oli ainoana ruokalajina sianlihaa.
Hämeen työsuojelupiiri ei löytänyt tapauksesta syrjintää, ja Heinolan kihlakunnan syyttää Erkki Karvinen teki asiassa pari viikko sitten syyttämättäjättämispäätöksen.
Lääkäri oli kuukauden ajan terveyskeskuksessa määräaikaisena. Omasta mielestään häntä kohdeltiin huonosti ja epäasiallisesti.
Lääkärin piti tulla ensimmäisenä päivänä tiettynä kellonaikana perehdyttämiskoulutukseen, mutta hän ei tullutkaan tapaamiseen, minkä vuoksi kollegalääkärin sijasta perehdyttämisen hoiti sairaanhoitaja. Tulokas koki loikkaavana sen, että hänet ottikin vastaan lääkärin sijasta sairaanhoitaja ja hän teki sairaanhoitajasta tutkimuspyynnön poliisille.
Poliisitutkinnan mukaan seuraavana päivänä sijaislääkäri käyttäytyi erittäin hyökkäävästi ja kränäsi terveyskeskuksen henkilökunnan kanssa ja väitti sairaanhoitajan suhtautuneen rasistisesti. Mies oli pari viikkoa töissä ja lopun ajan sairauslomalla. Myöskään työpaikan ruokalista ei ollut lääkärin mieleen, koska listalla ei ollut sianlihatonta ruokaa.
Syyttäjä ei löytänyt jutusta työsyrjintää eikä työturvallisuusrikosta, eikä juttu mennyt käräjille saakka.
Kihlakunnansyyttäjä Karvisen mukaan useat henkilöt voivat eri syistä joutua olemaan syömättä työpaikoillaan tai syömään omia eväitään eikä yhden ruokalajin tarjoaminen ole etnisestä alkuperästä johtuvaa työsyrjintää.
Lähde: IS 6.7.2006 [Uutinen puuttuu verkkoversiosta.]
http://www.marialohela.fi/blogi/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/aamuset_vain-naisille.jpg
Only womans allowed so she can work without scarf…
Those are only tip of the iceberg.
June 15, 2009 at 6:48 pm
“ALL can read and write and hey, your fourth point is totally racist. Making such a rude statement anonymously shows more about your character than anything else.”
LUKI-MAMU –projektin (1.8.2006 – 31.5.2008) tavoitteena oli selvittää lukutaidottomien maahanmuuttajien määrää ja tärkeimpiä taustatekijöitä Tampereen seudulla.
LUKI-MAMU -projektin tulokset ja suositukset
1. Yli 300 aikuista, lukutaidotonta maahanmuuttajaa oli Tampereen seudulla projektin päättyessä huhtikuussa 2008. Määrä kasvaa uusien tulijoiden myötä. Määrä kumuloituu, koska luku- ja kirjoitustaidon oppiminen vieraalla kielellä on pitkäkestoinen prosessi jopa vuosissa mitaten.
“Noin 15% kaikista ulkomaalaisista työnhakijoista on lähtökohtaisesti lukutaidottomia Tampereen seudulla. Tämä tulee huomioida kaikkien palvelujen suunnittelussa ja tarjonnassa. Noin 4% kaikista Tampereella asuvista ulkomaiden kansalaisista on lukutaidottomia.”
MSN is racists too…
http://encarta.msn.com/media_461526759_761572628_-1_1/goat_herding_in_somalia.html
“This herder tends to his goats, one of the most commonly raised livestock animals in Somalia. As an arid country with limited natural resources, Somalia relies on the livestock industry to drive its economy. The civil war that began in 1991 halted efforts toward economic diversification and devastated the country’s economy.”
June 15, 2009 at 9:31 pm
Hey Hannu, you always play the same record: immigrants are illiterate and are totally lost in Finland. It is like taking all the skinheads of Finland and portraying them as how Finland thinks. That is the flaw in your arguments and that of other “enlightened” people who do not have the faintest idea what it means to be international and not live with hang ups about other groups. When you make statements that about 15% are illiterate can you give me the source?
Yes, Hannu, you are right – ALL Somalis herd goat herders. And if some did, what is the big deal? The problem with such an affirmation is that it is ethnocentric and only used to show how advanced you are. Did you know that in the early 20th century social scientists started to look at cultures in a relativistic manner. And many of those so-called “theories” of white European supremacy and intelligence went down the drain when World War I came. It showed a very uncivilized face of Europe.
June 15, 2009 at 9:37 pm
IS would be one of the last newspapers that show good journalistic practices. It is what we call in English the “yellow press” that only aims to sensationalize and entertain readers. And hey, some people do not like pork. What about people who cannot eat pork for health reasons? Variety is good and ensures a healthy diet. Another problem with this article is that it does not even interview the doctor. Certainly the plaintiff did not find anything wrong because in his culture nothing was done wrong.
June 15, 2009 at 9:39 pm
Hi Tony, if unemployment cannot be used how else can you address the problem? True, some of us can be real jerks, but I believe most of the people that move here want to make a positive impression and get on with their lives.
June 15, 2009 at 11:17 pm
How many LUKI-MAMU projects there are? I thought you can use google…
http://www.pirkanmaanhelmet.fi/portal/teemat/maahanmuuttajat_toihin/koulutusta_luku-_ja_kirjoitustaidottomille/
“It is like taking all the skinheads of Finland and portraying them as how Finland thinks.”
No, its like taking all skinheads and telling foreigners that its better look out people looking that because risk of assault is high.
Wikipedia- “Somalis are mostly camel or goat herders, and depend on their livestock to live.”
“Somalis started herding camel and goats about 4,000 years ago, and they remain mostly herders today.”
“Agriculture is the most important sector, with livestock accounting for about 40% of GDP and about 65% of export earnings. Nomads and semi-nomads, who are dependent upon livestock for their livelihood, make up a large portion of the population.”
CIA factbook “Nomads and semi-pastoralists, who are dependent upon livestock for their livelihood, make up a large portion of the population.”
“The problem with such an affirmation is that it is ethnocentric and only used to show how advanced you are.”
No, its not ethnocentric or only used to show up. Its just plain fact. Fact that explains high unemployment.
“Did you know that in the early 20th century social scientists started to look at cultures in a relativistic manner.”
Yes i do, somalis can be goat herders or rocket scientics in somalia whatever their culture is. This is finland tho and we work with finlands cultural rules.
“And if some did, what is the big deal?”
Big deal is that you claim its somehow our fault that they have high unemployment.
June 16, 2009 at 12:06 am
Monikulttuurisuuskasvatusta http://www.kolumbus.fi/jik/mku1.htm
June 16, 2009 at 4:20 am
-”Did you know that in the early 20th century social scientists started to look at cultures in a relativistic manner. And many of those so-called “theories” of white European supremacy and intelligence went down the drain when World War I came. It showed a very uncivilized face of Europe.”
As said, that is irrelevant. This is not Somalia, this is Finland. We are not going to relativistically invent jobs for people who have as their only skills ability to herd goats.
There is no need for such workforce in Finland. Our goats, what few exist, are put to fenced pastures. They need no herding.
And in Finland, Finnish culture is supreme to all others. Every other culture has to yield to Finnish limitations and permissions, not expect us to appease their immigrant asses.
-”Hi Tony, if unemployment cannot be used how else can you address the problem? True, some of us can be real jerks, but I believe most of the people that move here want to make a positive impression and get on with their lives.”
Unemployment can be used, but the problem is not what you think it is. You think it is some kind of duty of Finland and Finns to appease immigrants and invent jobs they can fulfill and give immigrants jobs at expense of Finns.
But Finland is equal nation, here what you can do is what determines what you get.
Do you know how I got my job? I put forth application to open position. My CV was rather solid, then I was called to interview. Two in same day since I lived several hundred kilometers away.
I made pretty good impression in the interview as well. So the next day they called and offered me a job. And few other companies were interested to hire me as well.
I was not hired because I was a Finn. I was hired because I had proper education and proper knowledge for this job. Thus, I had the right skills.
In interview, I behaved in a way which was by interviewers considered proper, polite and showed desirable attributes.
If I had arrived here unable to read and write, could not string together a proper sentence in Finnish (and in English) and behaved badly… Do you think I would have been employed just because I was Finn?
Fault for high unemployment of immigrants is their lack of skills. Employers do not pay to people for sheer desire to pay. Salary is payment for services rendered. Your services mean that you have skills to do things employer needs done. And not only that, but you have to also present yourself as a person whom employer would want to hire. That means behaving properly in eyes of employer in interview.
If you have no skills, you are worthless and will not be hired. That is something every immigrant has to get into their head and start working on their skills. And two of these skills are cultural and language skills.
June 16, 2009 at 6:13 am
Hannu, I do not understand where you are coming from. What you are suggesting is that since Somalis come from a failed state they are all “failed” people. It does not work that way at all. People adapt to their environments and so do Somalis that move to Finland. However, the hostility that they face through attitudes is an issue. Somalis have been labeled by some Finns as the lowest group on the ethnic totem pole. So, if we want “to raise our nationalism” at the cost of a group, it is good to start from there. You have to stop seeing all Somalis as “failed people.” Given the opportunities, they would probably the first to embrace Finland as their home because they come from a “broken” home.
–Big deal is that you claim its somehow our fault that they have high unemployment.
I am not claiming that. It IS a fact. Let’s look at some aggressive solutions to bring it down. High unemployment among young Finns exists because this group is not a large enough political force. Over 55-year-olds can cry murder when they are unemployed (they are well established in the system) while high unemployment is “acceptable” because nobody is doing anything effective about it. Much of these problems derive from the Finnish labor system and the unions.
June 16, 2009 at 6:24 am
–Unemployment can be used, but the problem is not what you think it is. You think it is some kind of duty of Finland and Finns to appease immigrants and invent jobs they can fulfill and give immigrants jobs at expense of Finns.
What you say is discrimination. Ethnic background cannot be used as a variable when hiring people. And, by the way, we do not live in a dictatorship where neoliberalism is the rule. This is a Nordic social welfare democracy where the state’s role in social policy is important. I agree that you cannot force anyone to hire a person. However, if it is done because of a person’s background that is criminal act. Instead of keeping people in unemployment, why not hire them in the public sector. Any job would do to help them make that first important step.
–If I had arrived here unable to read and write, could not string together a proper sentence in Finnish (and in English) and behaved badly…
There you go again… Labeling ALL immigrants as illiterate and ill-behaved. Looking at history, I think many would refute your claim. Usually it has been the host society that has been ignorant and hostile to newcomers. This attitude starts to erode as more immigrants move to the country.
June 16, 2009 at 6:45 am
-”What you say is discrimination. Ethnic background cannot be used as a variable when hiring people. And, by the way, we do not live in a dictatorship where neoliberalism is the rule. This is a Nordic social welfare democracy where the state’s role in social policy is important. I agree that you cannot force anyone to hire a person. However, if it is done because of a person’s background that is criminal act. Instead of keeping people in unemployment, why not hire them in the public sector. Any job would do to help them make that first important step.”
So you say that Finland should waste more money on immigrants and invent them jobs in moving little stones from pile A to pile B and then next immigrant to move little stones from pile B to pile A so that first immigrant always has stones to move?
Do you think such invented jobs provide any use to Finland as society or immigrants themselves? If they resign to that job, they will not integrate. Instead of having things given to them we should start demanding things from immigrants. For example making continuing residence permit to be dependent on their ability to progress in Finnish language.
Then, when they have learned that, making their success depend on their willingness to learn skills which make them employable (and same for Finnish unemployed as well). After which make their continuing welfare money to be dependent on their active job search.
You are right, this is welfare society. And far too many are permitted to abuse it. To Finns who do it we can do little, they are born here and cannot really be sent away. But with immigrants we have means and right to deny them entry if they are bound to become extra burden to our society.
Because Finland damn sure has NO duty to try to help everyone. Hell, let Russians sort out their own water treatment instead of Finland paying for it. Enough is enough.
-”There you go again… Labeling ALL immigrants as illiterate and ill-behaved. Looking at history, I think many would refute your claim. Usually it has been the host society that has been ignorant and hostile to newcomers. This attitude starts to erode as more immigrants move to the country.”
Not all immigrants are illiterate and all are ill-behaved, but your beloved Somali are very well placed in both categories. And those ill-behaved and illiterate immigrants take the cake in unemployment statistics.
THEY form the huge majority of unemployed immigrants. Ones who have no skills to be employed.
If it was just question of being foreigner, Tony right now would be in line waiting for dole. But he is not. Why? Because he had useful skills to sell to his employer.
When you look at statistics you see that Somali unemployment is at 50% rate. While Chinese are near Finnish unemployment level. Neither looks Finnish, neither speaks Finnish naturally. So tell me… Why you think Chinese are not unemployed nearly as often as Somali?
By the way, you are again showing stupidity. More immigrants does not erode hostility towards them, more unintegrating immigrants INCREASES hostility towards them as they become increasingly large crime and stability problem.
Immigrant problems are not solved by importing more CENSORED, immigrant problems are solved by ensuring that we take QUALITY immigrants with skills we need and willingness to integrate to our society.
June 16, 2009 at 11:08 am
“how else can you address the problem?”
I don’t know, but the fact is that not all the 21% can in fact work in Finland. When comparing it with the 6% from Finns it shows an unreal and alarmist difference.
And you are right, some of us are really jerks. I believe I’m the biggest one, a immigrant who dares to criticize other fellow immigrants. What could be more stupid?
June 16, 2009 at 5:31 pm
“Immigrant problems are not solved by importing CENSORED, immigrant problems are solved by ensuring that we take QUALITY immigrants with skills we need and willingness to integrate to our society.”
That’s a very interesting statement. You’re totally right when you say that, Tiwaz. But I don’t see any reason why a “quality skilled” person would become a migrant worker seeking a better quality of life. That’s the essential aspect of migrant workers. They are people who do not achieve the needed skills to be well-employed in their home countries. The key factor here is that, whilst most of the developed countries DO want unskilled immigrants (because they can be easily exploited), Finland wants highly-skilled immigrants (but for unskilled immigrants’ salaries).
Why would I, an extremely competent professional, emigrate to earn less?
June 16, 2009 at 6:05 pm
Tony, it takes courage to speak one’s mind. There is no shame in that. Contradiction is the spice of life. It is what makes change possible.
June 16, 2009 at 6:14 pm
Mateus, it is great to hear from you after such a long, long time. I hope you are well. You pose a good question to Tiwaz, who he has an image of immigrants surrounded by 10 children and a embattled wife getting off a ship on Ellis Island somewhere in 1901. You make an interesting point: Finland wants highly skilled immigrants but for unskilled immigrants´salaries. You are suggesting that there are different pay scales for immigrant and Finnish jobs?
The problem in Finland is the one-sided view of some Finns about immigrants. They see it as something threatening, negative and parasitic. I wonder what would have happened in countries like the US if they had a similar attitude about immigrants? I am not stating that the US is the model society, but at least it allows immigrants to find a better life. What is the use of immigrating to a country and ending up in a dead-end hostile country and unemployed for years with no future? That would be committing personal harakiri.
June 16, 2009 at 9:15 pm
Enrique, thank you. It’s good to be back. I’m really fine. I’ve been studying a lot and busy with our cottage. It’s interesting to think that decades ago my Italian ancestors stopped farming there because farming was becoming something rather “backward and silly”, and now tendencies and global warming are leading us to climb trees and cultivate our own vegetables again!
But anyway… I cannot suggest that there are different pay scales in Finland. I can presume it, though, based on logic and on what I learn at Migrant Tales. This difference in salaries might not be openly declared, but I suppose it exists. But then again: does it exist because of the so-called “lack of skills” of immigrants or because of their backgrounds? That’s a vicious cycle.
June 17, 2009 at 4:18 am
-”But I don’t see any reason why a “quality skilled” person would become a migrant worker seeking a better quality of life.”
Have you ever stopped to think what Finland has to offer? Safety, security, stability…
Many highly educated people who think of having a family find those to be very desirable things. Some things are beyond mere salary.
You should ask all those foreigners who flock to Nokia what brought them here.
-”That’s the essential aspect of migrant workers. They are people who do not achieve the needed skills to be well-employed in their home countries. The key factor here is that, whilst most of the developed countries DO want unskilled immigrants (because they can be easily exploited), Finland wants highly-skilled immigrants (but for unskilled immigrants’ salaries).”
Finland wants immigrants who can WORK. There is huge difference between Finland and France/USA/UK. Amount of “no-speak” jobs is negligent here. Those unskilled workers are useless here even for employers because they can’t do anything which would produce profit for employer.
-”
Why would I, an extremely competent professional, emigrate to earn less?”
Ask from those who have emigrated. Because they prefere safe, stable surroundings over multicultural hellholes where salary is better but you do not dare to send your child across the street alone.
And I see Enrique here is spewing his usual idiocy.
For Enrique, fault is NEVER in immigrants, it is always the Finns.
Enrique, if Finns are so horrible people… LEAVE! Leave us in peace to live in our country like we want to.
-”But anyway… I cannot suggest that there are different pay scales in Finland. I can presume it, though, based on logic and on what I learn at Migrant Tales. This difference in salaries might not be openly declared, but I suppose it exists. But then again: does it exist because of the so-called “lack of skills” of immigrants or because of their backgrounds? That’s a vicious cycle.”
So you do not know jack shit but like to present your assumptions as holy truth.
In case you have not figured it out yet, Finland has low salaries for EVERYONE. I would make easily double the money I do here if I went to Germany, USA or other country like that.
But I do not want to, I find things offered by Finland to more than offset loss of salary.
And since you are bit in the thick category (I wonder how you can be so competent if you have so pathetic grasp of laws here).
Did you know, Mateus, that employer cannot legally pay less to immigrant? Because we have contract between worker unions and employer unions on minimum wages for each sector. And then there is law which handles those areas which are not in any of the represented business sectors (very few).
This is not USA or other banana republic where employer can be pissed in the eye while groping his wife with free hand.
Am I saying this system is perfect and there are no violations? No. But at least this one covers the back of the worker unlike in many “better” nations.
June 17, 2009 at 6:21 am
Ah, one thing of these statistics, a lot of the immigrants who come in as refugees or for marriage get Finnish citizenship pretty quickly; so even they are still unemployed they “disappear” from the number of foreigners, which means foreign citizens. The numbers only reflect the unemployment figures of people with a foreign nationality; not people who have immigrated.
June 17, 2009 at 6:22 am
Add to that if a Finnish citizen returns, say someone who has lived all their life somewhere else and is a 2nd or 3rd generation and doesn’t speak Finnish nor doesn’t have any Finnish qualifications; they have exactly the same obstacles in finding a job, but they conviniently also drop under the radar.
June 17, 2009 at 6:27 am
Mateus: “Finland wants highly-skilled immigrants (but for unskilled immigrants’ salaries).”
Of course. After all Finlands gotten used to having cheap engineers, not to mention say teachers or nurses; who have extensive educational qualificational demands – get peanuts for salary.
As we are speaking, theres another prediction of higher unemployment figures. Now where is this “demand for workers” may I ask. Oh yes, they want the cheap slave laborers who think they’re getting a good deal.
Finland doesn’t need workers, Finland needs jobs, and salaries paid in those jobs.
June 17, 2009 at 9:13 am
“Hannu, I do not understand where you are coming from. What you are suggesting is that since Somalis come from a failed state they are all “failed” people.”
No i dont. I say that they cannot compete in finland because they lack skills needed in finland, they need years of education before they come even close. Thats not my fault and its not their fault. Its finnish goverment fault to let them in and their goverment fault to let their country to be hellhole.
“People adapt to their environments and so do Somalis that move to Finland. However, the hostility that they face through attitudes is an issue. Somalis have been labeled by some Finns as the lowest group on the ethnic totem pole.”
And where those attitudes come? From thin air? Or is there maybe something what they did and do?
I know its hard to come cold northern equal country where that youre 3rd cousin of siad barre doesnt matter but you have to work and prove yourself is hard and since youre not local its even harder.
“I am not claiming that. It IS a fact. Let’s look at some aggressive solutions to bring it down.”
Ok, shovel in hand and go to shovel a ditch or you wont get dole. Thats a work too and aggressive, we had that 60s.
And you may want to read about reasons of unemployment before you make yourself looking stupid. over 50y old are in most serious shit if they lose their job.
June 17, 2009 at 10:56 am
\”So you do not know jack shit but like to present your assumptions as holy truth.\”
\”And since you are bit in the thick category (I wonder how you can be so competent if you have so pathetic grasp of laws here).\”
Tiwaz, pay attention to the words, please. I do not consider my assumptions as being the truth. I\’m just trying to learn new things.
When I said that I was competent, I was merely quoting a competent professional, it was a hypothetical situation. I am very stupid actually.
And I\’m not going to read about Finnish laws. I went to Finland as a tourist, and even so you MANAGED to make me feel bad, unwelcome. Sorry, this was not my fault, not \”immigrant stupidity.\”
But thank you for the information anyway. It\’s always good to learn different things from other people. You see? You\’ve just changed my inital thought that Finland had different pay scales, because you presented solid information. That\’s the way it works. We develop together. You don\’t need to take your anger out on me.
June 17, 2009 at 11:23 am
One question: why can’t I copy+paste the texts directly from this page?
June 17, 2009 at 11:36 am
-”Tiwaz, pay attention to the words, please. I do not consider my assumptions as being the truth. I\’m just trying to learn new things.
When I said that I was competent, I was merely quoting a competent professional, it was a hypothetical situation. I am very stupid actually.
And I\’m not going to read about Finnish laws. I went to Finland as a tourist, and even so you MANAGED to make me feel bad, unwelcome. Sorry, this was not my fault, not \”immigrant stupidity.\”
But thank you for the information anyway. It\’s always good to learn different things from other people. You see? You\’ve just changed my inital thought that Finland had different pay scales, because you presented solid information. That\’s the way it works. We develop together. You don\’t need to take your anger out on me.”
My apologies for coming down heavy on you, Enrique has habit of presenting his usually extremely flawed opinions as objective truth so I tend to have little tolerance for it these days.
Either way, this stuff is simple to find in Google and even Wikipedia.
Finnish system has worked like this for ages, for better and for worse. And it tends to lead to less flexible employment situation but has benefit of reducing possibilities of abuse by employers.
June 17, 2009 at 1:32 pm
DeTant, long time no read… How are things with you? Naturalized Finns are no longer immigrants. It is a technical definition. What are you suggesting that immigrant unemployment would be higher if we included naturalized Finns?
June 17, 2009 at 1:41 pm
Mateus, I have no idea. Why not trying another browser. I have never had this problem.
June 17, 2009 at 1:43 pm
–My apologies for coming down heavy on you, Enrique has habit of presenting his usually extremely flawed opinions as objective truth so I tend to have little tolerance for it these days.
Nice try, Twiaz. Always blaming me for everything and posting “extremely flawed opinions.” How can an opinion be flawed? Ever read Hegel?
June 17, 2009 at 3:37 pm
So how we tackle prejudice? How about follow the UK’s example…
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/5559436/Police-carrying-out-stop-and-search-just-for-statistics.html
“Police carrying out stop and search ‘just for statistics’ “
“Police are making unjustified searches of members of the public to provide “racial balance” to stop and search statistics, Lord Carlile, the independent reviewer of anti-terrorism laws, has said.
He said police were carrying out the searches on people they had no basis for suspecting so they could avoid accusations of prejudice.
As the terror threat against Britain is largely from Islamist extremists, the figures show disproportionately more Muslims and therefore more Asians being searched than whites.
But the peer said police should stop trying to balance the figures, and it may be that an “ethnic imbalance” is a “proportional consequence” of policing.
I believe it is totally wrong for any person to be stopped in order to produce a racial balance in the Section 44 statistics. There is ample anecdotal evidence this is happening.”
Isn’t this a good idea? If the statistics are uncomfortable we find a “way” to fix it. We blame innocents so no particularly group is “discriminated”.
So we can say that we live in a “tolerant”, “equal” and “enriched” society. Don’t you just love multiculturalism?
June 17, 2009 at 10:21 pm
Tony, remember the old saying: you can prove anything with statistics.
When you mention that we live in a “tolerant,” “equal” and “enriched” society I think we are far from it. It is more “intolerant, unequal and impoverished.” But if we do not have ideals in society to build a better society, we regress into a place where I do not want to be. What about if we professed even more vociferously “hatred for other groups, inequality and would carry out unfair hiring practices?” Would our country be in any better shape? What kind of a monster would we let out of the gutter?
June 18, 2009 at 4:26 am
-”When you mention that we live in a “tolerant,” “equal” and “enriched” society I think we are far from it. It is more “intolerant, unequal and impoverished.” But if we do not have ideals in society to build a better society, we regress into a place where I do not want to be. What about if we professed even more vociferously “hatred for other groups, inequality and would carry out unfair hiring practices?” Would our country be in any better shape? What kind of a monster would we let out of the gutter?”
Well, if you look at multicultural countries you see what kind of monster and failure you let out if you try to implement it.
It is proven to be failure, everywhere where it is attempted things go straight to hell when sufficiently different cultural groups become numerous enough.
In other places we see how cultural conflict, once lasting long enough, tears apart countries in violent wars.
Multiculturalism is proven not to work.
If you want to improve society, choose methods which are not proven to be failures.
June 18, 2009 at 5:34 am
–It is proven to be failure, everywhere where it is attempted things go straight to hell when sufficiently different cultural groups become numerous enough.
Yes, multiculturalism did not create one of the strongest countries on earth (the United States). Also, Europe has undergone the same thing between themselves. It is a huge dynamic societies that were not only receptive to new ideas, but had the ability to bring them on board and benefit from them. Our economic system, for instance, did not spring from Huutokoski (no rudeness intended) but from Scotland (Adam Smith) as did our form of government from France (Montesquieu) never mind all the neat things like mathematics (Middle East) and pasta that originated from Marco Polo’s travels to the Far East. The English language originates from Sanskrit in India.
It is natural for cultures to mix – what is unnatural and dangerous is xenophobia. It impedes or slows the whole process. It is like a rude slap in the face of humankind’s natural progress.
June 18, 2009 at 8:13 am
-”Yes, multiculturalism did not create one of the strongest countries on earth (the United States).”
No, it did not. When USA got into top, it was dominated by WCM. White, Christian, Male.
It was not multicultural, only now when they are in decline have they started this multicultural crap.
Chinese immigrants? Used as practical slave labor. Shitties and most dangerous jobs for them.
Black? They WERE slaves. And still second class citizens.
Indians? Off to reservates for you filthy savages! No wait, your reservate has something valuable. Off to next, smaller and more useless piece of crap land!
Adam Smith: Born 1723 in Scotland. Tell me, how many muslims, Indians or in general “non-white, non-christian and non-scottish” there were in Scotland at this time? How “multicultural” it actually was?
Not to mention how his whole idea has been thoroughly disproven by repeated failures of his “invisible hand” to actually build healthy and stable market.
Montesquieu: Born 1689 in Bordeaux. Tell me, what was percentage of “non-french, non-white and non-christian” population in Bordeaux at that time? Or more specifically, in anything resembling equal position to those who were french, white and christian?
Again you try to claim multiculturalism to exist where it was not!
Idiot.
Mathematics cannot be considered property of Middle East. Much of what they have is either built on or copied directly from Greek works which managed to survive bit longer in ME. Besides which… Do you have any grasp on what Muslim “multiculturalism” was?
Everyone but Muslim in Islamic society are second class citizens. At best… Christians for example have to pay tax for not being Muslims.
English originating from sanskrit? How full of shit you are?
English is Indo-European language. Sanskrit Indo-Aryan.
Both share same origins, but English has nothing to do with Sanskrit. In fact, Indo-Aryan language group is SUBGROUP of Indo-Iranian. In simple terms, Indo-Aryan originates from Indo-Iranian languages.
This just again shows how you try to spun lies to support your fantasy of everyone getting along just fine as long as multiculturalism is worshipped as holy truth.
-”It is natural for cultures to mix – what is unnatural and dangerous is xenophobia. It impedes or slows the whole process. It is like a rude slap in the face of humankind’s natural progress.”
And your definition of mixing is that everyone can come to Finland and bring their culture and tradition and we natives just must bow to these superior beings, for superior they are in every way when you describe them, because they enrich our culture by replacing it with their superior one.
Let’s ignore the fact that huge amount of them come from societies which in modern day and age are FAILURES.
What the hell would I want to learn from Somalian/Muslim/Whatever culture? How to fight internecine wars? We knew that in 1918 already, but managed to get over that idiotic habit, unlike certain people of African horn…
How to treat women like chattel? Sorry, not progress in my book. How to mutilate young children? Again, nothing of any value there. How to herd goats? FFS! Finland is cutting edge high-tech country. We left that behind us generation ago!
We will adapt new cultural tradition to ours, but only if they fulfill two important criteria…
1) They IMPROVE our culture in OUR opinion. Yours is worthless, only native Finns who live according to Finnish culture can say what improves our culture.
2) It is not in conflict with our existing culture.
See, this is NATURAL cultural evolution. What you speak of is unnatural and failing system where foreigners are considered to have a say in native culture. It is anathema to free cultural evolution. Because when foreigners have more to say on cultural tradition than natives who live by it, we are speaking of client culture which has been subjected to another culture through conquest of some form.
June 18, 2009 at 8:15 am
You saying that submitting to others being progress is slap on whole human psyche. Idiot.
I bet you would be defending slavery and colonial abuse if you were given the chance. After all, colonial lords did exactly what you proclaim to be so good. Forced their culture upon natives of the land to “civilize the savages”.
June 18, 2009 at 8:32 am
” What about if we professed even more vociferously “hatred for other groups, inequality and would carry out unfair hiring practices?”
No I’m advocating this. Am I? But I don’t think it’s right target innocent whites to make Asians fell less “uncomfortable”.
What about if we stop this cancer that is growing in our society called political correctness and say… “Sorry mate you group will be stop and searched more because the threat of terrorism is coming from your group, no others.”
June 18, 2009 at 8:32 am
“I wonder what would have happened in countries like the US if they had a similar attitude about immigrants?”
Life quality by UN’s Human Development Index
1st Finland
23rd US
Corruption by Transparency International
1st Finland
20th US
Few indexes from World Economic Forum
Education quality
1st Finland
19th US
Organized crime
4th Finland
72nd Finland
Public trust of politicians
3rd Finland
41st US
Ethical Behaviour of firms
2nd Finland
22nd US
Transparency of Government
5th Finland
28th US
More interesting numbers at…
http://www.weforum.org/pdf/gcr08/United%20States.pdf
http://www.weforum.org/pdf/gcr08/Finland.pdf
I and other Americans I know prefer the “racist” and “xenophobic” Finland. Thanks…
June 18, 2009 at 8:41 am
But Tony… Doing that would be logical and would hint that certain cultural groups are not just like others, or that certain cultural groups have disproportionate issues in adjusting to modern Western society.
Because that is against everything multiculturalism claims, it must not be done. For multiculturalism works, even if evidence states the opposite.
June 18, 2009 at 8:46 am
http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2009/06/police_bust_20_finnish_suspects_in_child_porn_raid_813962.html
“Police Bust 20 Finnish Suspects in Child Porn Raid”
” The majority of those detained have confessed to using downloading child pornography… Police freed the suspects after questioning them”
Those son of a bitch sould be jailed for life. Nothing drives me mad more than that.
June 18, 2009 at 9:22 am
“Those son of a bitch sould be jailed for life. Nothing drives me mad more than that.”
Youre too kind, i would like hanging by dick instead of neck (how you say hirttää munistaan in english…). Saunan takana on tilaa…
June 18, 2009 at 10:01 am
And let’s the feast begin…
http://www.helsinkitimes.fi/htimes/domestic-news/general/6790-boom-time-for-immigration-lawyers.html
“…but as with all expert assistance are unlikely to be cheap… Some asylum seekers are poor and desperate and the costs of legal aid may be beyond their reach..”
Hey, hold it… We have a problem here.
“Streng explains that in some cases people can receive help from the state to pay for their legal costs.”
All right then, all solve it…
—
Mr. Government: “Sorry Mr. asylum seeker but your application has been denied.”
Mr. Asylum Seeker: “I don’t give a toss.”
Mr. Government: “Well you should, we’ll deport you.”
Mr. Asylum Seeker: “No you won’t. Don’t you know that already your idiot? I’ll stay right here you like it or not.”
Mr. Government: “How is that?”
Mr. Asylum Seeker: “You will give me even MORE money so I can pay a opportunist blood sucker “lawyer” to go against you in court.”
Mr. Government: “But if you do that, the people’s general view about immigrants will be bad. This will make the life of many integrated, adapted, law binding, tax payers immigrants in Finland more difficult.”
Mr. Asylum Seeker: “Who cares about those idiots?”
Mr. Government: “Well… ok than. How much do you need?”
June 18, 2009 at 10:41 am
Hi Tony, you know very well that it is not my style to counterpose countries by rank. But, if you read history, we have never seen the growth of a nation economically as rapidly as the US in the 19th century. We are seeing a modern version of that in China today. It was because it had a unique republican form of government were individualism was emphasized. A republic that was always moving forward without every looking back as de Tocqueville put it. I live in Finland and enjoy it very much and am aware of the things you say. However, if Finland can score such good points in such surveys, then it must have the tolerance to debate about its society in a civil fashion without threats or love-it-or-leave-it conditions.
June 18, 2009 at 11:06 am
“I live in Finland ”
Do not lie, you live in spain. Or did you move back?
June 18, 2009 at 11:19 am
“…we have never seen the growth of a nation economically as rapidly as the US in the 19th century…”
Very true. Also Ireland in the last 10 years. Reckless immigration provide cheap labour, therefore does help economical growth, no doubt, but at what cost? The nation gets money in its central banks but what does the population get on its streets?
“I live in Finland and enjoy it very much and am aware of the things you say”
So do I (well not at the moment but if I can convince my wife, be back before next school term) and for the sake of my children I wish it can continues to be just the way it’s.
“then it must have the tolerance to debate cosical matters in a civil fashion without threats or love-it-or-leave it conditions”
And also without fear of being labelled racist or xenophobic.
June 18, 2009 at 11:19 am
-”Hi Tony, you know very well that it is not my style to counterpose countries by rank. But, if you read history, we have never seen the growth of a nation economically as rapidly as the US in the 19th century. It was because it had a unique republican form of government were individualism was emphasized.”
No, it was because USA was insanely lucky. At the beginning of 20th century USA was still way behind rest of the world. Only thing keeping USA going forward was huge amount of land and resources they had.
True rise to prominence came when WW2 came. But that was not because USA was somehow excellent as system, but because it had two Oceans between it and warfare. All competitors suffered from huge devastation of war, only USA got out of it industries unscratched.
And with lots of money. British gold and territories for obsolete US destroyers.
-”A republic that was always moving forward without every looking back as de Toqueville put it.”
You mean republic where money is everything.
Republic which is extremely outdated and religiously fundamentalist to point where abortion doctors have to fear for their life.
I would not call USA forward moving.
Also, have you noticed that your beloved USA was built on failed economy? It is deflating as we speak. And should OPEC stop pegging oil to USD, we would see it go down far harder.
-”
I live in Finland and enjoy it very much and am aware of the things you say. However, if Finland can score such good points in such surveys, then it must have the tolerance to debate cosical matters in a civil fashion without threats or love-it-or-leave it conditions.”
No, Finland has so high scores because Finland WORKS. And it works because Finland plays by ONE set of rules. Foreigners are not permitted to come up with their own rules to play by.
Finland works because we are unwilling to tolerate bad behavior from immigrants. And soon our politicians will notice that their attitude to immigrant caused problems has to change dramatically or they end up unemployed.
So I have nope that Finland will continue to work, and immigrants who are willing to integrate and adjust will continue to find this to be place where they want to come when they grow weary of chaos, violence and crime of their “multicultural” homes.
June 18, 2009 at 1:52 pm
–No, it was because USA was insanely lucky. At the beginning of 20th century USA was still way behind rest of the world. Only thing keeping USA going forward was huge amount of land and resources they had.
Geography might have played a role but it was its unique system of decentralized republican government with clear separations of powers that encouraged it to grow. The US economy was in the same growth mode in the first half of the 19th century as China is today. Alexis de Tocqueville gives a good description of the country in his classic work Democracy in America. I am only telling you this as historical facts.
–Republic which is extremely outdated and religiously fundamentalist to point where abortion doctors have to fear for their life.
I think you exaggerate.
–No, Finland has so high scores because Finland WORKS. And it works because Finland plays by ONE set of rules. Foreigners are not permitted to come up with their own rules to play by.
Oh, so what you are implying that countries like the US, France, Germany, Argentina and others have many sets of laws? Finland works because it has a functioning social welfare system and because of the values that uphold this society. One of the biggest threats to Finland are double-standard values; that is, that we uphold values BETWEEN our people but treat others with DIFFERENT values. It will undermine our values and our sense of who we are.
Legally, Finland is a multicultural country. You have to write to your lawmakers to change the laws, starting with Section 6 of the Constitution.
June 18, 2009 at 2:18 pm
“One of the biggest threats to Finland are double-standard values; that is, that we uphold values BETWEEN our people but treat others with DIFFERENT values”
Enrique bingo…. That’s the whole issue here. Equality being applied to make people in fact equal. Unfortunately this is not happening in today’s Europe. We see more and more minorities fighting inequality by asking special treatment due their cultural background. I have already posted several examples of this, but let’s have a look at another one. Tell me is this equality? Is UK in the right path? Will Finland eventually follow it?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1193810/Want-GP-Gipsies-come-NHS-tells-doctors-travellers-seen-straight-away.html
“Gipsies and travellers should be given priority in NHS hospitals and GP surgeries, doctors have been told…
They will also be given longer consultations than other patients. Five or ten minutes is the average but travellers will be given 20 minutes and allowed to bring relatives into the consulting rooms….
The guidelines have been introduced because, under race laws, gipsies and travellers are defined as minority ethnic groups and the NHS is obliged to consider their special needs and circumstances.”
You are very right, double standards is a huge threat to all, but it’s coming from the minorities.
June 18, 2009 at 2:19 pm
And to illustrate a bit further, once you advice me to check the Guardian, well so I did. Who is in fact looking to implement different values in our society? Is diversity really worth the price we pay for it?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jun/18/islamist-al-muhajiroun-meeting-chaos
“Islamist Al-Muhajiroun relaunch ends in chaos over segregation attempt”
“Supporters of the group, which wants sharia law in Britain and has praised the 9/11 terrorists as the “Magnificent 19″, were ordered to leave Conway Hall in Holborn on Wednesday night when it emerged that Al-Muhajiroun had placed bouncers on the doors and were not letting women into the main hall.
This was a segregated event, policed by Al-Muhajiroun’s guards.
He led chants and said in reference to the row over segregation: “Jews and Christians will never make peace with you until you either become like them or adopt their ways.”
As the chanting continued, including loud calls of “sharia for UK”
Choudary criticised British society as “dirty” and predicted that, within one or two decades, Muslims would make up the majority. Asked why, if society was so bad, he was living here, he said: “We come here to civilise people, get them to come out of the darkness and injustice into the beauty of Islam.
June 18, 2009 at 2:35 pm
Since this issue usually sparks tensions between different opinions (I wonder what would happen if Enrique and Tiwaz met in person), I thought this video would do us some good. It’s silly, but full of meaning and social context. Enjoy!
The Flight of the Conchords – Albi (the racist dragon)
June 18, 2009 at 2:40 pm
the URL is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-jVAHAuiS4
June 18, 2009 at 2:55 pm
–Is diversity really worth the price we pay for it?
Tony, diversity is something you cannot stop unless you want to live in a hermetically sealed country. Since we ALREADY have a diverse society, it is the role of the state to defend all of the country’s inhabitants. Are you suggesting that we should round up people we do not like culturally and deport them? Your affirmation does not give an answer to the question because our societies are already diverse.
June 18, 2009 at 3:01 pm
Mateus, I have know personal qualms against anyone although I will debate with anyone. What about if I met Tiwaz, I am certain that we would end up laughing at each other. Sometimes words cannot transmit gestures. Even though I disagree with a lot of people who post comments on this blog, I have nothing personal against them. Thank you for sending the clip. It was pretty silly.
June 18, 2009 at 3:24 pm
I’m very confused here… First you say that double standards and treat people differently are out biggest threat… So I show that this attitudes are in fact coming not from the maim population but the minorities. The minorities are demanding this. So you than say “state to defend all of the country’s inhabitants”.
So what is your point than? should we all be equal or not? Should minorities get different treatment due their cultural background? Some different is bad some different is god? Isn’t this double standard?
Could you explain how…
“One of the biggest threats to Finland are double-standard values; that is, that we uphold values BETWEEN our people but treat others with DIFFERENT values”
Applies when minorities are demanding it?
PS:. I don’t think Finland is a diverse society yet. As you said yourself Immigrants are still a very small part of the population. And yet “diversity” accounts for a small part from this already small part. So no sir, Finland is not “diverse”… Not yet…
June 18, 2009 at 5:00 pm
–So what is your point than? should we all be equal or not? Should minorities get different treatment due their cultural background? Some different is bad some different is god? Isn’t this double standard?
We are all equal before the law. If we had the ability or treated ALL of the inhabitants as members of this society not as “them,” we could get more things done. I believe that the values in our societies are neat and encourage trust and cooperation. Immigrants too should be given the same welcome to participate in our society as any native. When we look at penal or contractual law, for example, it applies to everyone no matter where the person is from. What worries me that as more immigrants come here we will end up building — or have already in many respects — a two tier society: natives and immigrants.
As to different treatment, this should apply to helping immigrant children at school and mutual respect for the minorities culture. Since we live in a culture were there are many culture, our society should acknowledge this and defend everyone’s rights.
I don’t think that Finland is a culturally diverse society in practice but legally it is. You are right in pointing this out.
June 18, 2009 at 11:15 pm
“We are all equal before the law.”
Bullshit i may say, some “visible minorities” are more equal than finns.
“As to different treatment, this should apply to helping immigrant children at school and mutual respect for the minorities’ culture.”
So helping them to keep middle age practises living like woman is something man owns etc.. How nice.
June 18, 2009 at 11:33 pm
And here is another multicultural happening
“Nuori potki ja löi vanhusta Vantaalla
Keskiviikko 17.6.2009 klo 15.04
Iäkäs vantaalaismies pahoinpideltiin Hakunilan kirjaston edessä tiistaina kello 12.30 aikaan
Tapahtumaketju sai alkunsa kun vuonna 1928 syntynyt mies moitti kahta alle 18-vuotiasta poikaa häiriköinnistä. Kaksikko oli pitänyt meteliä kirjaston luona.
Toinen pojista suuttui moitteista ja hyökkäsi vanhuksen kimppuun. Pahoinpitelijä hyppi uhrin jalan päälle sekä löi ja potki häntä useaan kertaan.
Uhri kaatui lyöntien voimasta maahan ja tekijä häipyi paikalta kaverinsa kanssa.
Vanhus jouduttiin kuljettamaan sairaalaan, mutta hän ei poliisin tietojen mukaan loukkaantunut vakavasti.
Poliisi tutkii tapausta pahoinpitelynä. Tekijä on poliisin mukaan jo tunnistettu, mutta häntä ei ole vielä saatu kiinni.
IL”
So that old man was xenophobe racists who wanted that youth should behave like finns, unacceptable!
June 19, 2009 at 8:27 am
*DeTant, long time no read… *
Thats because of your censorship. Me banned long taim.
*How are things with you?*
Same shit, different package, delivered daily. Actually I am now working outsourcing Finnish jobs overseas. So theres even less need for immigrants, all the people I make unemployed could leave the country to Canada as well.
*Naturalized Finns are no longer immigrants. It is a technical definition. What are you suggesting that immigrant unemployment would be higher if we included naturalized Finns?*
Yes. They fix the statistics there – you know someone on a jackoff course or studying is not “unemployed” – theres 100 000 person discrepancy between the “unemployed” according to MOL and “people without work” by the statistic centre.
So yes, it fixes the statistics someone gets citizenship,
June 19, 2009 at 8:39 am
–So helping them to keep middle age practises living like woman is something man owns etc.. How nice.
Why is it that whenever you speak of immigrants, you bring up one group and focus on one narrow aspect. Certainly there are all type in all cultures. Do you really think that Muslim women who are young and move to the West do not change? But that is not the point. In society we have choices and one thing the dominant culture cannot do is impose them. You cannot force Jews to eat pork, Latins not to kiss each other on the cheek when greeting, Thais to eat Lenkkimakkara wok etc. That is THEIR choice. In a multicultural society we are left with more cultural options to realize ourselves as human beings. When you point out how “bad” a certain group you sound just like the fanatics of that group who state how “degenerate” Western society is.
June 19, 2009 at 8:45 am
Hannu, I know a Turkish Muslim who owns a pizzeria. The man works 16 hours a day, has a wife and child. He probably works harder than we ever had. He told me that when he moved to Finland, he was only without work for 5 days. This is how his day is: gets up a 6am, goes shopping and starts work at 10am. He serves customers and delivers food until 10pm (12 hours!). At home he watches television with his wife and goes to bed. He does this 7 DAYS a week. “He said he was going to take a break for two days during Juhannus (Midsummer).
June 19, 2009 at 8:47 am
No its not the muslim women mowing to west moving that would not change, but its their fathers and cousins tossing them from the balconies that won’t change. Google Rahime Sahindal.
I agree with Tizwas that if you move to Finland you move to Finland. If you want to live like in Pakistan then live in Pakistan. If you move top Finland you live in Finland and not Pakistan.
June 19, 2009 at 8:48 am
“He said he was going to take a break for two days during Juhannus (Midsummer).”
Gotten integrated he has.
June 19, 2009 at 8:51 am
Enrique, the thing with “multiculturalism” is that you want us to accept medieval opinions of women or gays. Why should we? Racism xenophobia blaa blaa bllaa. If you want human rights then act like one.
June 19, 2009 at 9:02 am
I hope you are not going to report me to the Julkisen sana neuvosto (JSN)… I am certain we would be interested to hear about your new job. The global economic situation is still heading south… maybe will see some light at the end of the tunnel in spring.
June 19, 2009 at 9:07 am
“Do you really think that Muslim women who are young and move to the West do not change?”
Short your memory is..
http://www.kaleva.fi/plus/index.cfm?j=790853
http://hommaforum.org/index.php?topic=5076.15
June 19, 2009 at 9:09 am
Hannu, I can also take some things of our culture and say, “hey, look at this, all Finns are the same.” Your aim is not helping this women but to show how “disgusting” these cultures are; that is, you show total intolerance for them.
June 19, 2009 at 9:19 am
“If we had the ability or treated ALL of the inhabitants as members of this society not as “them,” we could get more things done.”
But THEY want to be “them” for bloody sake… When will you open your eyes to it? How much more examples do you need?
Some memory refresh…
“In an age when the highest-profile Muslim preachers are bearded, anti-Western firebrands such as Abu Hamza or Omar Bakri Dr Hargey seems an anomaly. “
Please pay attention to the anti-Western part…
June 19, 2009 at 9:19 am
“You cannot force Jews to eat pork, Latins not to kiss each other on the cheek when greeting, Thais to eat Lenkkimakkara wok etc. That is THEIR choice”
Agree, but either can’t immigrants force locals not to drink beer when celebrating, force schools to cancel Christmas and Easter celebrations, force gyms to have girls only boys only class, force employees not eat lunch on their desks during Ramada, force hospitals to remove crucifixes from walls, and the list go on…
Enrique the “diverse” part of immigrants DOES NOT WANT TO INTEGRATE. Bloody hell…
Haven’t I already posted enough examples of it?
Enrique this is not about immigration but a distorted vision of multiculturalism that is being implemented in Europe. (Amnesty International words not my)
Those people you defend so much are fighting against people like you and I. THEY, not the Finns, make our lives more difficult. It’s time to open your eyes to who is doing what…
More memory refresh…
“Choudary criticised British society as “dirty” and predicted that, within one or two decades, Muslims would make up the majority. Asked why, if society was so bad, he was living here, he said: “We come here to civilise people, get them to come out of the darkness and injustice into the beauty of Islam.
Enrique who is trying to force who?
June 19, 2009 at 9:21 am
“Why is it that whenever you speak of immigrants, you bring up one group and focus on one narrow aspect.”
Why when you speak about immigrants you bring up one group and focus on one narrow aspect. Like this post you bring up that people who cant write and read cant get a job, what a suprise, and its somehow our fault…
June 19, 2009 at 9:32 am
–But THEY want to be “them” for bloody sake… When will you open your eyes to it? How much more examples do you need?
Being US does not mean we are all the same. As you know, globalization and economic growth has brought many things: one of these is living with the different. The ideal is that we can come from different backgrounds but we are still from the same home. To take an example closer to home, isn’t that what Brazil is all about ethnically? Moreover nobody has succeeded (unless you oppress a group for generations like the Jews) in forcing a culture to accept the ways of the dominant group. Look what happened in Finland in the 19th century. They were at one point a majority with no language rights. So, let’s have mutual respect and get on with the task of contributing to our society.
Since you live part of your time in Ireland, it is probably one of the worst examples of xenophobia in Europe. It transformed itself from a 2.5 World country in the 1980s into an aggressive economy and springboard to the European Union. Probably when things go poorly economically as has been the case, people like to blame it on outside factors such as “immigrants taking our jobs.” Can’t you get it that if you work for a multinational company you thrive in a global environment where your company’s survival hinges on fair foreign investment laws. You can compete in a country against the national companies without somebody coming out and stating that this is “anti-Irish.” We also live in an industrialized capitalist world order where competition (includes labor, goods, services etc) is the order of the day. If enough of us disagree with this system, it is the right of the people to change the system. However, if protectionism grows it will mean trouble for your company. Your company will be discriminated and undermined because of unfair practices. It is the same story for laborers in the EU. They need transparent, fair laws to compete – not nationalistic catchwords and hostility.
June 19, 2009 at 9:49 am
–Enrique the “diverse” part of immigrants DOES NOT WANT TO INTEGRATE. Bloody hell…
Here you raise one of the centerpieces of our multicultural form of life. In first place, you will not find in the laws anything that refers to “integration” or “assimilation.” We have to ask: integrate into what? The dominant culture? But one cannot be so absolute because integration is especially needed in the labor market. However, when it comes to religion and culture, that is the choice of the person.
If I hired group x that could not eat y because of their religion, certainly I would take that into consideration when offering food to my employees. Why? Because it contributes to cultural understanding, creates a better job environment and certainly bolsters efficiency. You cannot invite or have people from other cultures in a society and have total disregard for their ways. Certainly you can do this but at the cost of strife. The job of society is to regulate and be fair with all of its parts. There are laws (penal and others such as contractual) that are social benchmarks that express our most cherished values.
I do not see how they are making my life more difficult. In which way? Because they pray for this or that god and have a different view of things?
–“Choudary criticized British society as “dirty” and predicted that, within one or two decades, Muslims would make up the majority. Asked why, if society was so bad, he was living here, he said: “We come here to civilise people, get them to come out of the darkness and injustice into the beauty of Islam.
There are fanatics in all cultures. But yes, if we abandon OUR values of fairness and let fear overtake us, we give our enemies a golden opportunities. The best example I can offer you is Bush’s administration after 9/11. al-Qaeda could not have got a greater present than the hubris and fear of the United States.
Read European history: thanks to our diverse cultures, religions and ways of life, it would be pretty far-fetched for us to become a monolithic Muslim country. It is simply not our way of life.
June 19, 2009 at 10:16 am
“If I hired group x that could not eat y because of their religion, certainly I would take that into consideration when offering food to my employees. Why? Because it contributes to cultural understanding, creates a better job environment and certainly bolsters efficiency.”
What if i choose not to hire because its more simple and efficient to not have to change food etc?
June 19, 2009 at 10:28 am
“What if i choose not to hire because its more simple and efficient to not have to change food etc?”
You just don’t have this choice in a “diverse”, “enriched” and “equal” society you HAVE to hire him/her and you HAVE to change.
June 19, 2009 at 10:28 am
“If I hired group x that could not eat y because of their religion, certainly I would take that into consideration when offering food to my employees”
So because 1 don’t eat y the whole other 13 that does and like can’t do it because this 1 person will get offended?
The problem is not their choices but the fact that they demand we change ours.
Is this the “equal” society you are advocating?
June 19, 2009 at 10:29 am
“Since you live part of your time in Ireland, it is probably one of the worst examples of xenophobia in Europe.”
Really, are you sure?
I’ve been living here for more than last 2 and half years. I have had no problems whatsoever. My wife knows a number of Finns living here (you know Finns always cluster around each others) as far as I know none have had problems. I also met during this time people from US, Spain, Germany, Brazil and others, again no problems. The only people I know that faces hostility here are the English but that’s understandable.
However I’ll quote the Irish minister for integration…
“Acknowledging incidences of racism he said: “We do have people who throw and hurl abuse at people who are of African or Islamic origin . . .”
So again we see the very same people complaining about the very same thing. Either there is a European wide conspiracy against these people or there is really something wrong with them…
June 19, 2009 at 11:13 am
“Being US does not mean we are all the same”
Not we are not, and I don’t think Finland is hostile to foreigner culture either. They just don’t want to accept what is against their morals and values.
They prefer this on their streets…
http://www.samba.fi/fi/kuva.html?F=pressikuvat_2.html&N=30&D=pressikuvat
Rather than this…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PICT0871.jpg
June 19, 2009 at 11:31 am
Hannu, give me a break. The food catering bit is the last of the problems. You are creating a storm in a teacup.
June 19, 2009 at 11:35 am
–Not we are not, and I don’t think Finland is hostile to foreigner culture either. They just don’t want to accept what is against their morals and values.
Your statement does not make sense: Finns are not hostile to some cultures. They just don’t want to accept what is against their morals and values. Who says they have to accept them? In a free society it is our choice to accept what we wish. It does not mean that I have to be friends with everyone. That is a choice I make and which society grants. However, if I go ridiculing in public other groups because I am “against their morals and values” and impose another culture on them, then we have a slight problem. Anyway, that is not how our society works.
Moreover, I personally like the first picture and have not qualms about the one where they are flagellating themselves. Are there any laws in Finland and the EU against self-inflicted pain? Isn’t this a religious thing? What about when Christ was nailed to the cross? That is pretty gruesome. Some children would be shocked by such a thing. I know I was.
June 19, 2009 at 11:40 am
–I’ve been living here for more than last 2 and half years. I have had no problems whatsoever.
It is because you are an invisible foreigners: good job, professional and married to a Finnish wife with, I am certain, with beautiful children. How could anyone in Ireland commit prejudice on such a model family? However, if you are a visible minority then that is another story, I am certain during this uncertain economic times.
June 19, 2009 at 11:43 am
–So because 1 don’t eat y the whole other 13 that does and like can’t do it because this 1 person will get offended?
Come on Tony, you know that democracy works here to. One is still too few. There are issues like labor and cost factors to deal with when serving only ONE type of food to ONE person. However, couldn’t they have got around it by offering more vegetarian food? I don’t know. I am not familiar with all the intricate details of the problem.
June 19, 2009 at 11:46 am
Come on amigo Tony, you are exaggerating a bit. Certainly matters like food can always be worked out. But mark my words, if a lot of people from group a worked for me, I would not mind to offer them food b in order to make them feel more at home at work. Why does this bother some people? What about if you wen to work in a country and were not accustomed to eating tripe with pancakes (hypothetical case). What would you do? Wouldn’t you thank your employer for taking you into consideration when it came to the food? I do not understand why this is such a big issue in the first place.
June 19, 2009 at 12:09 pm
“I am not familiar with all the intricate details of the problem”
A group of 13 engineers, some Finns some not Finns.
Sauna evening almost every week.
A Muslim engineer join the team. (with education and with job, already claimed here the path for integration)
About 4 months after he arrived he storms in the line manager office saying the sauna evening is “discriminatory” and demands she to change it for something without alcohol, otherwise he would go to court.
3 weeks later he’s transferred and then we get to know about his demands.
“you know that democracy works here to”
I do, you do, the Finns do, but do they?
June 19, 2009 at 12:09 pm
“How could anyone in Ireland commit prejudice on such a model family?”
Exactly… I made my future by myself. No demands, no complains, no quotas, no “positive discrimination”, no special help.
But, in particularly, the secret is… between “us” and “them” I decided to the “us”.
June 19, 2009 at 12:09 pm
I have never seen this blog so active as today. What is the problem with you guys. I’m working today, so I have plenty of time to write
, but it’s a holyday in Finland, for fucking sake.
You should be outside enjoin the day…
June 19, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Tony, I totally agree with you: it is a holiday in Finland. It is a pleasure replying to all of you. However, I am going to head to the summerhouse and take a dip in the lake.
June 19, 2009 at 3:24 pm
“It is because you are an invisible foreigners: good job, professional and married to a Finnish wife with, I am certain, with beautiful children. How could anyone in Ireland commit prejudice on such a model family? However, if you are a visible minority then that is another story,”
Whats so wrong about foreigners getting a job and living like people? Why is it you get prejudices if you are a stupid illiterate who spends his time begging on the street and stealing and robbing. The Finns in Ireland are not parasites living on welfare. So why would anyone ba “racist” against them. Mind boggles.
June 19, 2009 at 3:25 pm
“You should be outside enjoin the day…”
Its +12 and pissing rain
June 20, 2009 at 10:39 am
–Whats so wrong about foreigners getting a job and living like people?
Nobody is suggesting the contrary. It is great that people can function successfully in society. I think the next sentence is going overboard. The issue is why, for example, is there lower employment among invisible versus visible immigrants. Is it because society sees them with suspicion and does not trust them? If so, that is not a very good starting point.
–The Finns in Ireland are not parasites living on welfare. So why would anyone ba “racist” against them. Mind boggles.
Because they are not at the end of the day much different from the Irish. What about if they are different? In the US they kept blacks on the sidelines politically and economically until the 1960s when they started to fight for their rights. Did you know that in many states marriages between black and whites was against the law? See Living vs. Virgina. This proves that old stereotypes and discrimination are resilient and take a long time to change. But this is a different story in the EU because there are laws that protect minorities. Thanks to these laws, we do not have segregated toilets and schools in Finland.
June 20, 2009 at 10:39 am
DeTant, I was thinking of going outside to enjoy the weather.
June 20, 2009 at 1:20 pm
“Is it because society sees them with suspicion and does not trust them?”
Absolutely. But the next question would be why some people insist in be “visible” immigrants?
You can ask anyone here who had any contact with Finns what they think about them. I bet any money that at less 95% will say they had no problem.
But if you are really interested in see the reality you could also ask to people from Limerick or maybe Longford what they think about Nigerians. Does anyone in this forum would like to try a guess?
Be “invisible” (ie adapted and integrated) does work very well, believe me.
June 20, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Tony, I think this is one of the interesting questions and challenges. Our “visibility” as immigrants is attributable to things such as color, dress and cultural factors. I would get around this problem — a humble opinion — by learning how to travel culturally. Meaning, that we are so well-versed in other people’s cultures, or with those we interact, that we are capable of “visiting and interacting” with a minimal amount of friction to make relationships possible and then “travel” back to our culture and interact in the same way. However, the question is: “Why can’t the one culture I am traveling to do the same?” So is it after a long while (generation(s)) that we learn to exist culturally in a sort of neutral area where our cultures do not clash anymore because we know each other. But true, if I wen to culture x and insulted it, it would get pissed off at me and visa versa.
I believe that time and interaction reduce cultural differences. However, this means that people from both groups must be treated equally before the law and have equal opportunities to advance. They have to stop seeing each other as a threat but as an opportunity.
June 21, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Cultural differences… Look on gypsy culture in finland and tell me how it can be accepted. It isnt accepted and its frowned. It had 500 years to adapt and it didnt, well we dont have to accept it either.
Its good to think that we should accept others like they are but is it realistic? And more on is it really good? I wont accept any middle eastern ways or gypsy ways, am i bad person?
I learned that womans are equal, more than equal in some sense. Mother of house haves an last word about housing and feeding of people, thats totally opposite on mid east ways where woman is quiet and oppressed part of family. Should i respect middle eastern way? Should i change way where i ask from granma if im allowed to go in summer cottage to way where i ask from granpa? Should i accept ways like that?
In finland we have family where both take burden and have their say, should i change it to middle eastern or accept middle eastern ways where only man haves right to say?
Are you really saying we have to accept cultures like that? I really want to talk with your wife..
June 21, 2009 at 5:12 pm
–Look on gypsy culture in finland and tell me how it can be accepted. It isnt accepted and its frowned. It had 500 years to adapt and it didnt, well we dont have to accept it either.
Hannu, you should be more up-to-date with Finland’s laws and institutions. The Roma have all the right in the world to retain their culture and identity. It is their choice to become “whiter” or your choice to take up their culture. Your views of Roma are outdated and suspect. And then you go talking about Muslim culture as if you knew them… Because someone does not share my ideas and values, there is no reason I should loathe him/her.
–should i change it to middle eastern or accept middle eastern ways where only man haves right to say?
Who is asking you to change? That is your choice in our society. Moreover, if a Muslim woman wants to embrace the values of Finnish women, that is her choice.
June 22, 2009 at 2:29 am
“Your views of Roma are outdated and suspect.”
Sure, i only know about ten or so roma and obviously i dont know anything about them… How little i know when roma who decided to be part of working society and did loathed finnish work was kicked out of his society because he had too finnish ways. Of course he should uphold cultural diversity and be on dole like others..
And views about stealing in roma people is thats not bad because its not stealed from “us”, that is enrichening way i say. Racist people who work on loss prevention or police think thats not so nice but who they are judge when roma does things according their values and culture.
And that one roma did dare to tell that maybe romans should look in mirror when they look problems they have had death threats was only nice multicultural happening. http://www.riemurasia.net/jylppy/media.php?id=23525 Going in school and work is threat against roma culture.
I know laws and sure you can have whatever beliefs you want but when your beliefs hinder your oppoturnities then look in mirror. I know several employers who really think twice before hiring muslim because their beliefs and customs just dont fit in, and all of employers have had first hand experience on muslims.
“Moreover, if a Muslim woman wants to embrace the values of Finnish women, that is her choice.”
Is it? From examples all over europe i would say it isnt their choice at all. You will fly from balcony or be groupraped if you have wrong values.
Only way to help these oppressed womans is stand against their culture and stop “understanding” it.
June 22, 2009 at 5:26 am
-”Geography might have played a role but it was its unique system of decentralized republican government with clear separations of powers that encouraged it to grow. The US economy was in the same growth mode in the first half of the 19th century as China is today. Alexis de Tocqueville gives a good description of the country in his classic work Democracy in America. I am only telling you this as historical facts.”
Unique system of failed republican government. US system worked when their founding fathers built it. Now it is archaic and no longer functional, but since they are so stuck up with past they are not getting around to FIX it.
Like California for example. One of the wealthiest pieces of land in the world. But heavily in debt because their laws have been built in such idiotic way that it prevents raising funds (thought taxes) to cover their mandatory costs. Same story all over USA. Their system does not work anymore. But since they are anti-progress they are ending up deeper in the pit.
As for separation of powers. Fat good it does to America. Their system is failing to change because everyone fights everyone else. Nothing gets done because internecine conflicts pit them against one another, without common cultural roots they lack unity to stand together and do the painful things which simply have to be done.
”
I think you exaggerate.”
No, I already told you why US economy going down the drain. And are YOU aware of how religious nuts bomb abortion clinics in USA and murder abortion doctors?
Of course not. Because you blindly believe in dogma that everything multicultural is perfect, and close your eyes from it’s ugly truth.
“Oh, so what you are implying that countries like the US, France, Germany, Argentina and others have many sets of laws? Finland works because it has a functioning social welfare system and because of the values that uphold this society. One of the biggest threats to Finland are double-standard values; that is, that we uphold values BETWEEN our people but treat others with DIFFERENT values. It will undermine our values and our sense of who we are.”
Their sets of laws are becoming moot when minorities are no longer treated as equal but given preferential treatment.
It is essential that minorities are not given single inch beyond majority, because it breeds inequality and hatred which in long term creates conflict.
Immigrants must accept that they have to change. They have no business demanding others to change their native land to fit immigrant ways and values.
“Legally, Finland is a multicultural country. You have to write to your lawmakers to change the laws, starting with Section 6 of the Constitution.”
Legally, it nowhere states that immigrant would be PREFERRED over Finn. What is your issue is that you cannot get over the fact that immigrants are doing shit in Finland because those who do shit never got around fact that they have to adjust to fit into Finland.
Somalian goat herder who can’t read or write cannot expect to find employment in society where nobody herds goats and reading and writing in Finnish are basic expectations from everyone.
June 22, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Talking about integration, us and them, changes in society, etc…
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/All+nationalities+welcome+during+%E2%80%9CMuslims-only%E2%80%9D+hours+at+Helsinki+public+swimming+pools/1135247093619
“All nationalities welcome during “Muslims-only” hours at Helsinki public swimming pools”
Although the system has been softened by the pool administration what they really want is to be on they own, no kuffar allowed.
And some still ask why they don’t integrate… How about because they don’t want to?
June 22, 2009 at 12:21 pm
“Our “visibility” as immigrants is attributable to things such as color, dress and cultural factors”
Really? How about Indians? Chinese? Koreans? Japanese? They are also physically visible and apparently they do just fine, and as far as I know it’s the same in Finland and other European countries.
But there is something else these groups share in common. We don’t hear from than any demand. No changes in work or school environment due their cultural background. No Indians or Japanese only hours in any place. Their children participate in ALL activities TOGETHER with other children. They join in the celebrations in the work. We don’t see them offended by just about anything. And most important the criminality among these groups are usually than their Europeans hosts, almost inexistent.
Muslins and Africans though are the complete opposite… Highly demanding, highly complaining, highly offended and easily turning to crime.
Could we say that this make them highly “visible”?
June 23, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Hi Tony, I hope you are well.
What makes some visible or invisible is an interesting thing to study. It would be too simplistic to say that all black people or all Muslims fall into this group as you mentioned. There are many types of people that fall into the groups you mentioned. I know of Muslims that are very hard working and “decent citizens” in Finland who work hard for a living. What life has taught me is that if you take the effort to learn about a culture of the people you have relations with that gives you a head start in building a relationship. This is also followed by mutual respect. Why do some people “complain,” or air differences more than others? Maybe they have valid points that should be listened. Possibly acknowledging some of these complaints is a first important step in creating less conflict. As mentioned, Finland has in its laws all the framework for acceptance of people no matter what their background is. How well this is applied is another question.
June 23, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Tony, I don’t know all the reasons for this. Let me find more information and I’ll get back to you. I personally feel that if we live in a multiethnical society, this should also apply to public swimming hours. There might be something, however, that we do not know. Let me find out.
June 23, 2009 at 12:45 pm
Tiwaz, I have never understood why taking into account other people from different cultural backgrounds is “appeasement”. Aren’t people in Lapland taken into consideration when it affects them directly? Or is it done blindly and unilaterally from Helsinki? There is a local element in decisions that affect people in regions. Why are they taken? So that the decision is more effective. Thus if you have people from different cultures living in Finland, certainly we should take this fact into account.
The Finland of “integration by perkele” was a thing of the past. Today things are done differently. It is the way of modern affluent societies.
June 23, 2009 at 9:55 pm
“Aren’t people in Lapland taken into consideration when it affects them directly? Or is it done blindly and unilaterally from Helsinki? There is a local element in decisions that affect people in regions. Why are they taken?”
What kind of priviledges i have now when i live in tampere? Do i have special diet or own swimming times, i would like reindeer meat and naked mixed sex please.
How goverment takes my situation in consideration?
June 24, 2009 at 5:13 am
-”Tiwaz, I have never understood why taking into account other people from different cultural backgrounds is “appeasement”.”
It is appeasement because in your opinion we must compromise our own cultural tradition and values so immigrants do not have to.
That is completely unacceptable.
If you can’t handle eating pork, in Finland it means you find means to overcome what is YOUR issue. Bring your own lunch to work for fucks sake. But what you do NOT do is tell that nobody may have pork.
By demanding this, you demand appeasement. Immigrants have no business demanding anything.
-”Aren’t people in Lapland taken into consideration when it affects them directly? Or is it done blindly and unilaterally from Helsinki? There is a local element in decisions that affect people in regions.”
Which is why we have parliament which gets representatives from all areas of country. They tell what they wish to further and then voters decide if that is what they want. So that what MAJORITY wants, will be represented in parliament.
-”Why are they taken? So that the decision is more effective. Thus if you have people from different cultures living in Finland, certainly we should take this fact into account.”
No, we should not. They are free to stay here and live, but they have no business telling us, natives and majority, how we live our life in Finland. If we like to unwind by getting drunk, going naked to sauna and eating pork with workmates, immigrant ass who can’t handle alcohol or pork is free to fuck off.
-”The Finland of “integration by perkele” was a thing of the past. Today things are done differently. It is the way of modern affluent societies.”
Today things are done the fucked up way, which is proven by failures of UK, France, Germany and so forth. Because of this, people there are waking up to understand that unless immigrants are made to adjust to society, they will not do so. And if you give in to their demands, it does not make them integrate but makes them demand MORE concessions.
Thus, you see around Europe how politicians going for more hardline approach on whining immigrants are getting into power.
It is clear sign for you and all the other immigrants Enrique. Our country, our rules, our culture. Either respect them and adjust to their limitations, or you are not wanted.
This is because fractured societies are dysfunctional societies. And culture is the glue which holds society together by having everyone play with same rulebook on social interaction.
June 24, 2009 at 12:44 pm
http://www.thelocal.se/20250/20090624/
“Women in Malmö have been given the right to bathe topless in the swimming pools of Sweden’s third largest city.”
“Speaking to The Local at the time, Ragnhild Karlsson, 22, explained the womens’ motives for swimming without bikini tops.
“It’s a question of equality…”
Hey, that kind of equality I like
June 25, 2009 at 3:21 pm
http://joensuunsilmin.blogspot.com/2009/04/kuka-pelkaa-mustaa-miesta.html
Enrigue read that and tell do they have suspicion due history and if they do then why?
“Yksi ystäväni kysyi huolissaan, että onko hän rasisti, koska häntä pelottaa.”
“one of my friends asked worried that if she is racist because she is aftaid”
Thats multicultarism what we peons have to see and tolerate so we wont be “xenophobic racist islamofobics”. And we cant do what you do on normal coexisting because “racism” and then things escalate.
Thats up now again because young finnish males have had enough and now understanders are worried…
And i so clearly remember one “youth” telling how finnish girls arent “racists” because they talk to him and dont change lane. Well in few years finn girls learn that im afraid, they learn that they arent like finnish boys.. But all good? This just “enriches”…
June 25, 2009 at 3:43 pm
Also i want your opinion on this http://www.pohjalainen.fi/Article.jsp?article=429101
June 26, 2009 at 5:29 am
Of course immigrants have right to rape evilracistxenophobic finns… right Enrique?
June 26, 2009 at 5:31 am
-”Tiwaz, I have never understood why taking into account other people from different cultural backgrounds is “appeasement”.”
Well, if i want to eat pork then i eat it. I dont care what some worshipping cultist thinks about me.
June 26, 2009 at 9:32 am
And this news from etelä-saimaan sanomat makes you say that they are just curious fellows who like to see firemans. About 30 of 50 missalarms are from refugee centre, mostly smoking or enrichening cooking. Of course their culture just doesnt understand that you dont press alarm buttons, smoke or burn your food but we have to understand and pay. How enrichening.
Maybe we should adapt on those habits because telling its not good would be racists and xenophobe.
July 3, 2009 at 7:59 pm
–Of course immigrants have right to rape evilracistxenophobic finns… right Enrique?
Juuso, NOBODY has a right to rape anyone. There are no societies that I know of where this is an accepted practice. It is a criminal act punishable by law.
We live — as I guess you already know — in a Nordic welfare society based upon solid institutions and a functioning judiciary. We are a modern state, an example to other countries that have autocratic systems. Now let me ask you a question: I let you make your comments in this blog because I am not a Kim il Sung Elvis look-alike that runs his country. You have the right to your opinions but you must tone them down. Give us some valid suggestions on how we are supposed to deal with our ever-older population, and keep Finland economically and socially prosperous. Some readers — as I — would like to hear your opinions on these crucial matters.
July 5, 2009 at 11:51 am
“here are no societies that I know of where this is an accepted practice.”
well in some societes they punish woman because she was too tempting…
Should we accept and understand that cultural trait too?
July 5, 2009 at 8:27 pm
Hannu, this has been used as a defense in some countries but having forceful sex is just not accepted. Go to Muslim countries and you will understand what I am talking about.
July 5, 2009 at 9:16 pm
Why i have to go to muslim countries when i see what their behauvior is in europe and know their laws?
Read news and look around and you understand what im talking about.
Btw you somehow knew what countries i were talking about
And as homework i give you to study sharia.