By Enrique Tessieri
Only about three weeks after the tragic death of a Somali national in Oulu, when he attempted to escape from three Finns that barged into his home, Migrant Tales has heard yet another death apparently of a Somali youth in Espoo, who died Friday morning.
Iltalehti reports the death in a short story but those not mention the nationality of the victim.
The police have detained one of the suspects.
The police is quoted as saying on Iltalehti that the fight happened at the victim’s home.
A Somali source who got in touch with Migrant Tales, said that he heard the news about the Somali’s death from a group of youths from the same country.
“I went to Leppävaara to visit my mother and met a bunch of Somali youths on the way who said that victim was a Somali who had been killed at 4-5 in the morning after he was beaten to death [by a group of Finns],” he said.
“The story on Iltalehti doesn’t say much but imagine if a group of Somalis would have jumped a Finn and killed him,” the source added. There would be a national outcry.”
Mark
February 17, 2012
Didn’t Iltalehti say that one youth had been arrested who was suspected to have committed the crime? It’s it wise to give voice to speculation at this stage, Enrique?
Niina Sezgin
February 17, 2012
Niin…
Migrant Tales
February 17, 2012
Mark, thank you for pointing that out. I have added that the police have detained one suspect.
John H
February 17, 2012
I think the main thing to say here is to offer our condolences to the young man’s family.
Migrant Tales
February 17, 2012
–I think the main thing to say here is to offer our condolences to the young man’s family.
Hi John H, I totally agree.
Akaaro
February 17, 2012
Migrant tales, thank you for your releasing this information publicly. The victim was a Somali national and was murdered by his Finn brutal friends. On friday nigth they went to a party toghether, but on friday evening his neighbor Finn friend callled him on phone that he went to meet him, but unfortunate he already prepared another group of Finns at their apartment balcony and he was stapped several times in the stomach and he died in their apartment before the murderer parents informed the police who were also at the house at that time.
Peter
February 17, 2012
This is terrible news. My condolences to the victim’s family and friends.
Let us not speculate about the motives of the crime, but wait for details to emerge. I know that this is hard, however it is best not to make claims that could be inaccurate. I hope that the true motives for such a senseless act will emerge in time! I encourage the police to thoroughly explore all avenues.
Regardless of motive, we should all come together to show our support for the victim’s loved ones. They have lost a family member and friend and our society has lost another life. Indeed, we have all been robbed of this individual’s contribution to our society.
A sad day.
Depressed 4 Reason
February 18, 2012
I went yesterday to espoo leppävaara, met view Angry and shocked somalis, they told me that a brother was killed this morning by group of finns. I was shocked to hear that, it wasnt just long ago when another one was killed in oulu. The ones who told me, some were relatives and some were his bestfriends. His friends and relatives think, it may have been a hatecrime, you never know, just knowing the hateret atmostpare to immigrants , taking place in finland, i think i too believe, it may have been a hatecrime. I also think, this will not be the last one. What sad case about this incident is, this young guy who was killed yesterday, just finished highschool with highhopes for his future.
Depressed 4 Reason
February 18, 2012
ILTALEHTI IS DISGUSTING FOR NOT REVEALING THE SOMALI YOUTHS NATIONALITY ON THEIR NEWS. WHO’RE THEY TRYING TO PROTECT?
Depressed 4 Reason
February 18, 2012
Peter: Let us not speculate about the motives of the crime, but wait for details to emerge. I know that this is hard, however it is best not to make claims that could be inaccurate. I hope that the true motives for such a senseless act will emerge in time! I encourage the police to thoroughly explore all avenues
Don’t expect truth based details by the police. It’s obvious that police always favor and protects white finns even when they kill intentionally . I dont trust the police much, i have a chronic bad experience of them. they wont even tell to the public who was this killed youths nationality. You know why? becus the public dont give a F****. take for instance Nina sezgin. she’s is asking so? with a big mark question, like this killed brothers life never meant anything to no one. This is how many finns think of the lifes of somalis, for being not worth of a penny. Sad but true.
Depressed 4 Reason
February 18, 2012
Mark: Didn’t Iltalehti say that one youth had been arrested who was suspected to have committed the crime? It’s it wise to give voice to speculation at this stage, Enrique?
There is no speculation here mark. We need to report these incidents even when we’re not sure. What if it was really a hatecrime and we don’t report? people will start to think that, this is easy for them and that they can get away with it. By reporting these incidents we’re monitoring hatecrime incidents.
Migrant Tales
February 18, 2012
Hi Akaaro, we are saddened by the news and we at Migrant Tales offer our condolences to the victim’s family and loved ones.
Thank you for sharing this sad information with us.
As a community we can find strength by working together. This blog’s aims is a very humble one: …to be a voice for those whose views and situation are understood poorly and heard faintly by the media, politicians and public.
Mark
February 18, 2012
D4R
The part that I though was speculation was that he was beaten to death by a gang of Finns. It may be true, but the information I thought was now public was that it was a stabbing made by a Finn, though he had friends with him in the house. I’m glad that Enrique reported on this. I think it’s very
Mark
February 18, 2012
How Does it work in the Finnish press? Will they report more on these cases when they come to court?
Mark
February 18, 2012
D4R
‘niin…’ can also mean yes. Niina might have been agreeing with my post. If it was ‘so’ it would probably have had a question mark after it.
Mark
February 18, 2012
I couldn’t find information on how the man died, only that it involved another young man. So cannot say if it was a fight or a stabbing, just to clarify from my point of view.
Peter
February 18, 2012
Depressed 4 Reason: I understand your upset and hurt. Please pass on my condolences to the friends and family of the victim. Let them know that they are not alone and that many people in our community are deeply upset and ashamed that such an act could take place.
I’m sure that you are aware of the case of Stephen Lawrence in the UK. Back in 1993, Stephen was senselessly murdered in London by a gang of racist youths. The police investigation was beset by issues of ‘race’ and his killers did not get successfully prosecuted until November 2011. This case caused large public outcry and resulted in a public inquiry was held which found the metropolitan police force was “institutionally racist”. If any good can be seen to come out of Stephen’s tragic and untimely death, we must take solace in that this case proved to be a tipping point in changing policing in the UK.
When you write such things as “Don’t expect truth based details by the police. It’s obvious that police always favor and protects white finns even when they kill intentionally.”, you rob yourself and the immigrant community of agency. We must stand up and make ourselves heard. I encourage your friends and representatives of the Somali community to interact with the police community liaison officers: to express their fears that this was a hate crime and to demand transparency in all areas of their investigation.
By uniting together we can tell the police and the community at large that the lives of all human beings are equal and deserve equal treatment regardless of the hue or one’s skin or the citizenship papers one possesses. Also by challenging the media (in this case Iltalehti) we can make our voices heard and expose the population of this country to the unequal and terrible racist treatment that some newcomers and persons of minority background are exposed to!
Rather than allowing oneself to be placed in the role of victim (of racism in Finland), one should stand up and seek to make their voice heard. It is only by doing this that you can ever hope to make “the public give a f***”, as you might say.
I am a proud “Espoolainen” and feel deeply upset that this could happen only a few kilometers from my front door. I refuse to ignore this and will not allow those around me to do so either. If we all choose to act in this way, we can change our society for the better!
Akaaro
February 18, 2012
Mark, I have called some friends of the victim’s family, they told that the boy was stabbed some merciless Finns and one murderer is in the police custody but i can’t confirm where are the other murderers involved in the crime. Some neighbors said the murderer sent text messages two of his neighboring friends telling that “I want to be famous”. offcourse that is an evidence, he wanted to kill some one innocent, to be famous.
Your question of How does it work in the Finnish press? it works do it we are not going to tell it. Because the Finnish press is the one who spoon-feed the hatespeech of immigrants to the finns, they tighten thier stranglehold on the view and voices of immigrants and fans cheering up behind the curtain is the government. Also i can’t say that all finns are racist but mostly they are motivated to do so by politicians who are indecive and bad-mannered leaders.
Hiski
February 18, 2012
Helsingin Sanomat (today, page A 12) reports that the killer and the victim did not know each other and there was no third person in the apartment at the time. I know nothing about the crime, just wanted to point out that this contradicts markedly with what some persons have written above.
About not naming the nationality of the victim: that is the normal practice. After all the publicity of the Jokela and Kauhajoki shootings for example, did you see much details about the victims? They were reduced to just faceless numbers, only the murderers’ names and faces were everywhere.
depressed 4 reason
February 18, 2012
Peter: I am a proud “Espoolainen” and feel deeply upset that this could happen only a few kilometers from my front door. I refuse to ignore this and will not allow those around me to do so either. If we all choose to act in this way, we can change our society for the better!
you’re a great man Peter. I wish you nothing but the best. Pretty much i agree with what you wrote. Have a nice day.
Migrant Tales
February 18, 2012
Hi Hiski, and welcome to our blog, Migrant Tales. Thank you for the update as well. I think the best thing to do now is to wait for the police report. I spoke with Mark about this and there are other practices in countries like England.
Native Finnish Woman
February 18, 2012
Saying “Niin…” like Niina did above cannot really mean “So?”. That’s a misunderstanding. “So?” in Finnish would be something like “Entäs sitten?”. Just wanted to point that out, because if misunderstood, Niina’s comment will understandably hurt feelings because it sounds very callous and cold, and make people wonder how someone could say something like that.
depressed 4 reason
February 18, 2012
Akaaro:Your question of How does it work in the Finnish press? it works do it we are not going to tell it. Because the Finnish press is the one who spoon-feed the hatespeech of immigrants to the finns, they tighten thier stranglehold on the view and voices of immigrants and fans cheering up behind the curtain is the government. Also i can’t say that all finns are racist but mostly they are motivated to do so by politicians who are indecive and bad-mannered leaders.
I couldn’t agree with you more. As a avid finnish press follower eg. iltasanomat, iltalehti, i have to say finnish media is the one who keep feeding negative image about immigrants. I even believe , finnish media like iltalehti has put finnish people against immigrants. you cant tell that by just visiting iltalehti paltalk, racism is explosive in there, there’re even threat scheming against immigrants, ive already posted some to this site.
depressed 4 reason
February 18, 2012
Hiski: Helsingin Sanomat (today, page A 12) reports that the killer and the victim did not know each other and there was no third person in the apartment at the time. I know nothing about the crime, just wanted to point out that this contradicts markedly with what some persons have written above.
The question is, if victim and the murderer didn’t know eachother, why then Iltalehti claimed of them knowing eachother?
Migrant Tales
February 18, 2012
The Finnish media is run and operated by white Finns. They see their interested through their perspective and interests. All you have to do is go and find out what the tabloids wrote in the early 1990s when the first Somalis came to Finland. Disgraceful, racist and shameful.
The Finnish media is however trying. As Finland becomes more culturally diverse, they will have to take on board the views of others. Hopefully by then we will have a lot of journalists with international backgrounds.
Hannu
February 18, 2012
depressed 4 reason “The question is, if victim and the murderer didn’t know eachother, why then Iltalehti claimed of them knowing eachother?”
Iltalehti didnt claim anything like that.
“just long ago when another one was killed in oulu”
He wasnt killed.
And seems that enrique has “reliable” sources, looks like chainsaw again… To ones who dont read this blog enrique “sources” claimed that in oulu incident there was chainsaw and thats pretty big mistake from people who claim to know about it. Police didnt report anything like that, they reported kicking.
Enrique when you report and blog about racist incident what happened in vantaa http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/2012021715218439_uu.shtml
Migrant Tales
February 18, 2012
Hannu, I told you that when a journalist reports a story he asks sources for their opinion. In the case of Oulu, some Somalis who lived there said that was what they thought they heard. I asked the police this, who did not confirm what the Somalis said.
A story looks at different sources and tries to get them confirmed. Fair enough?
Next time you hear about such an incident like the one in Vantaa I will be more than happy to condemn it. Moreover, if you look at the scoop that Migrant Tales published Friday, we are careful not to make any assumptions. We have only reported that the victim is a Somali. You would agree that in this adverse environment for immigrants, and especially for Somalis, we did the right thing.
Another important matter. Somalis in Finland have a right to express their pain through Migrant Tales. We are honored to have their trust in this respect.
Let’s wait for the police report to come out.
Asian (Realy I am Chinese so I know my own reality)
February 18, 2012
Tulee mielenkiintoisaa milloin suomi saa oman Oscar Grant, Amadou Diallo tai Mark Duggan. Poliisi on hieman oikutteleva silloin värillinen on uhri, mutta toivotaan että heidän liipasin sormi pysyy vahvana kun osoitellaan värillistä. Englannissa ja USA:sa poliisilla on vähän liian hellä liipasin sormi mustia kohtaan. Emme halua Suomelle omaa listaa poliisi väkivallan uhreista.
Hannu
February 18, 2012
Enrique, how in earth one can think sound of kicking is sound of chainsaw and how one becomes many. I think youre working on hearsays with no actual people who actually saw or heard actual incident. If i were malicious i would say you invented those stories.
And about not reporting that victim is somali, police and press have guidelines to NOT report ANY “identification” of anyone if case dont need witnesses etc.
I too think that is wrong. I would like see news “Romani ryösti jälleen kaupan!”
Hannu
February 18, 2012
“Next time you hear about such an incident like the one in Vantaa I will be more than happy to condemn it.”
Condemn it now, write atleast 4 posts about it and ponder how blacks can be racist and what that tells about black minority, i dont hold my breath.
Somali stabbed by finn in apartment = uproar. Finn attacked in public place by atleast four blacks and stabbed = “i condemn it”…..
Migrant Tales
February 18, 2012
Certainly I will condemn violence by any group. Do you?
Hannu
February 19, 2012
It was way more obvious to be possible racist crime than ones you blogged but you as self appointed fighter against racism wont blog about it, you ignore it. what that tells about you.
It tells that you have agenda and that didnt fit in it.
You can change now “who is migrant tales” to “anything what finns do to foreigners, nevermind what foreigners do to finns, if nothing happens we lie” in there. And stop pretending that youre anti racism, youre anti white and your cries about racism is just red herring to get something to yourself.
Depressed 4 Reason
February 19, 2012
Hannu: “Next time you hear about such an incident like the one in Vantaa I will be more than happy to condemn it.”
Condemn it now, write atleast 4 posts about it and ponder how blacks can be racist and what that tells about black minority, i dont hold my breath.
Somali stabbed by finn in apartment = uproar. Finn attacked in public place by atleast four blacks and stabbed = “i condemn it”…..
Hannu why dont you go to Hommaforum and condemn the rampant racism that’s taking place in there, or the death threats against blacks they scheming there? Why do you come here with your ridiculous counter arguments? what is your point i wonder? We’re here moarning about this deceased youth and your coming here with a another subject wich has got nothing to do with this, i wonder what is your point?
Depressed 4 Reason
February 19, 2012
Correction. We’re moarning for him not about him.
Mark
February 19, 2012
Hannu
The Espoo case did not identify the victim’s ethnicity, what does that have to do with witnesses, Hannu? In the case you quoted, the man who was hospitalised was identified as a Finn and the perpetrators as foreigners. Also, if the nationality is only important in cases where the police are looking for witnesses, I’d like to see any single case where the police are NOT LOOKING FOR WITNESSES. The police are always looking for witnesses, Hannu.
That’s the difference between you and Enrique, he does condemn both incidents, but you haven’t Hannu. In the incident that Enrique reports on, a man lost his life and your response is to trawl the papers looking for another case of a man hospitalised and throw that into the mix. Like D4R said, why are you doing that? Enrique is reporting on this story, why try to change the subject?
Hommaforuum and Scripta spend all their time reporting on crimes by immigrants. They do not spend their time reporting on crimes by Finns. You come here asking for balance in the reporting. Does that mean that you also ask the same in their forums too? Yes or no? Are you practicing what you preach, or are you preaching a selective message that protects whites against charges of racism?
One of the reasons I’m happy that Enrique reports these stories is that the denial of people like yourself of the racism in Finland is so deafeningly, stupidly and endlessly repeated that it requires reporting on these stories to counter that blatantly false lie.
Not only that, but if Iltalehti or the police are going to demonstrate this kind of institutional racism in their reporting, then Migrant Tales becomes an important alternative source of the REAL news in regard to the murder of immigrants and crimes against immigrants.
And yes, putting someone in fear of their life so that the leap from a balcony might very well bring a manslaughter charge. Let’s see. Or are you in the MaryMekko camp that says he simply ‘fell of the roof’ with no mention of the lynch mob that forced him up there in the first place?
Mark
February 19, 2012
Your speech is that of someone who has been brainwashed, Hannu. I worry for you.
eyeopener
February 19, 2012
Anoither hurray for guys like Hannu, Clapotis, Allan and all their “brothers in arms”. I hope they choke in their beers of celebrations.
Life means nothing to them. Just the narrow-mindness of the inner-crowd.
Can’t we send these guys -and their philosophy- to VEGA V of the second MilkyWay!!
Are political parties FINALLY speaking out to prevent a civic war on foreigners. When?? Now!!
Ashame, ashame!!
eyeopener
February 19, 2012
Let me put it this way.
Or some of the inner circle that he still defends. Probably very soon the police will check me, interrogate me because I create an uprise against Finnish people.
What did the police do abouyt all the indications against foreign people. BLABLABLABLA!!!
No, this is not a “hate-crime” (Oulu-policy on the first case). Now: Well it COULD be a hate crime.
What message do you think “this officiual attitude” gives to the public. Do the responsible people (politicians, policy managers) really understand what is their contribution to this “wate-of-people” attitude.
nope
February 22, 2012
What is Migrant Tales’ official position regarding death threats against politicians? I find this blog disgusting since the above comment has neither been removed or condemned. It has lingered there now for three days with absolutely no response from the moderators.
Issuing death threats agains politicians is hardly the correct means for furthering the discussion, the fact that this has not stirred outrage in the bloggers of Migrant Tales serves to express their apparent disregard for ethical and civil conversation.
AT
February 22, 2012
There were exactly two people in the apartment. The killer and the victim. Both of them were the same nationality. They met at the streets and got into argument with each other. After the argument they both went to the killers home, where the argument escalated into a fight. The victim died to the injuries he got in the fight. Killer has been detained and he has confessed.
Those are known facts. Anything outside that is simply a speculation and rumor spreading. Enriques story is simply a lie.
Enriques style seems to be, that he hears about some incident and then he makes up a story around that without knowing or even caring about any actual facts. I guess telling lies gets you more fans?
Hannu
February 22, 2012
Enrique do you condone possible murderers in here?
Hannu
February 22, 2012
I think you should report these terrorist as soon as possible
Migrant Tales
February 22, 2012
AT is this how you make your debut on Migrant Tales by calling me a “liar.” Nice try but the only one that gets burned is yourself.
You are constantly moving the goalposts: The fact is that two Somalis and a Moroccan, all Muslims, died in a span of over three weeks. The first one leaped to his death after trying to escape three people who barged in his home; the second one, who was a high school student, appears to have died on his prom night; the third was shot in cold blood at a pizzeria trying to make a living and paying taxes.
The issue is what happened and the deaths that occurred.
One can always use the conditional tense when one isn’t sure about something or if it is still unconfirmed.
Despite what you called me, I will go through a well-known ritual and welcome you to our blog, Migrant Tales.
Hannu
February 22, 2012
Enrique when you say youre sorry abour hatred and misinformation you caused and fix your posts?
nope
February 22, 2012
I find it appalling that my initial post apparently did not pass moderation. It was a simple question regarding an earlier post in this thread where a person is instigating political murder.
For some reason my post where I pointed this out was not published, while the disgusting comment is still here for all to see. I am happy to hear that screenshots have been taken of this blog and the proper authorities have been contacted regarding this.
It doesn’t matter how pissed off you may be, advocating murder on the internet is a genuine crime and as such will be prosecuted.
Migrant Tales
February 22, 2012
Nope, welcome to Migrant Tales. If you know of our blog and have any idea our policy, we don’t censor anyone unless the thread is outright racist and insults other groups.
We have a clear stance on violence: We condemn it from any political and ethnic direction.
Moreover, this blog is a humble hand-on-heart operation. We write because we are passionate about one thing: we don’t like racism and urban tales. Many of us work, pay taxes and contribute in other ways to society. We cannot and don’t have to be 24/7 answering threads.
Sorry to steal your thunder.
justicedemon
February 22, 2012
nope
Check out the two penultimate contributions from Question dated 27 January in this thread.
I didn’t see any outrage from you at that time.
Mark
February 23, 2012
Nope
Nope, I only just read this thread by Eyeopener. I too find it disturbing.
It appears to me that he is saying that political parties are not speaking out against the murders of immigrants or that they are justifying or trivialising’ murder. He’s saying that the police appear to have ruled out hate crime without giving an explanation and that to all intents and purposes, it still could have been a hate crime. That makes him suspicious about the Police.
He’s complaining that critics of Migrant Tales are showing absolutely no respect for the value of an immigrant’s life and are being absolutely disrespectful without having any evidence to suggest any of the deaths were ‘deserved’.
HIs point then seems to be that if someone says let’s kill immigrants, no-one cares, but that if he says ‘let’s kill Soini’, there would be an outrage and he would be investigated by the police. In fact, it got a response immediately from you, Nope, which kind of illustrates Eyeopener’s point.
However, I’d also say that his two posts were largely incoherent and it’s very unclear what he actually meant. Nevertheless he appears to have made a direct threat to Soini, which is really unacceptable, whatever the point he is trying to make.
I’m glad you passed this on to the authorities, Nope. At the same time, I also don’t think it’s a credible threat, but thankfully, I don’t have to decide that either.
I don’t know what the legal responsibility is of a blog owner for comments such as these. However, Nope, Enrique was right in pointing out that it’s hard to keep track of all the threads being commented on when you take time away from the site. So assuming that no-one condemns such comments is a hasty conclusion.
Eyeopener, what the heck are you saying? This is really quite disturbing to make this kind of comment and I for one do not want to see this kind of talk on the blog. I have no idea if you are serious, but putting it like this makes you seem like a fool or worse. You certainly are not helping Migrant Tales make the case against racism by trying to provoke reaction in this way.
Mark
February 23, 2012
Nope
Also, it should be taken into account that Eyeopener made his comment on the same day that the Rautio story broke where he suggested giving the killer of immigrants a medal. At the time, the police said they were not going to investigate comments, though they later reversed their stand as it became clear the amount of public outrage.
I’m not making excuses, but rather trying to bring some context. I still think Eyeopener’s comment was unacceptable.
nope
February 23, 2012
To Migrant Tales
Thankfully my thunder is very much kept in check, yet you seem to be more concerned about that than the fact that someone is quite clearly issuing threats on your weblog.
Second, and this goes out to Mark as well,
You claim not to be making excuses for eyeopener, yet miraculously that’s exactly what you are doing. You are expressing genuine interest and speculation toward eyeopener’s motives and intent and supplying eyeopener’s hateful comments with context. I’m sorry, I am unconvinced.
Third, this goes for JusticeDemon
You are correct, I did not express my outrage for the article you linked. That may be because this was the first time I visited this blog and therefore I have not been able in the least to sift through every single article you have managed to post here.
My question to you then: So what? Would you consider my post here if I went and expressed my outrage under the link you provided me? Gladly I will. What will you do then? Will you condemn eyeopener or will you link another page to me and ask me again why I haven’t expressed outrage there? You see where I’m going with this, don’t you?
This setting is quite revolting to me.
Here’s the first impression your blog made on me: Providing context to death threats and misleading the discussion via a link to something in order to prove what is evidently lost on me as a reader.
I googled some of the people running this show and you are supposed to be reporters for heaven’s sake. Yet, objectivism is out-the-window with you guys.
Mark
February 23, 2012
Nope
Why is it making it an excuse to provide context? I specifically said that it was not an excuse and that I find this comment unacceptable. Maybe you are more concerned with trying to make all the commentators on Migrant Tales responsible for the comments of just one?
Unconvinced of what? My desire to understand what was meant by it? All comments should be read in context. The context was two threads, both of which were written in almost incoherent English. I think it is the task of anyone reading the thread to try to make sense of it. It does not excuse the comment, and neither have I suggested that it does. In fact, I specifically said it doesn’t.
Look, Nope, why don’t you take my comment at face value? Or do you have an agenda?
Nope, you are selectively quoting here. I did more than supply context, I also made it clear it was unacceptable. But I guess you missed that part. sigh…..
nope
February 23, 2012
“Why is it making it an excuse to provide context? I specifically said that it was not an excuse and that I find this comment unacceptable. Maybe you are more concerned with trying to make all the commentators on Migrant Tales responsible for the comments of just one?”
It is making excuses. On the one hand you’re saying it’s unacceptable, while on the other you’re actually humanizing it, breathing it to life and giving it a face. That, to me, speaks lengths of your determination to actually believe how much you belittle serious things such as threats on your blog, which serve only to demean the validity of the rest of what may be found here.
“Look, Nope, why don’t you take my comment at face value? ”
I am certainly trying to glean what exactly you think you have to gain by validating eyeopener’s comments. Simply put, you could’ve adressed eyeopener’s comment with one or two sentences, something along the lines of: “That’s not cool. You are demeaning the discussion.”
Instead you opted for writing 7 paragraphs stating nonsense about how it actually succeeded in provoking a response from me, illustrating the cleverness hidden in what you deem to be incomprehensible English.
Yes, you also said that eyeopener’s comment was unacceptable. And I said I am not convinced that you truly find it unacceptable.
Did I still miss something?
Mark
February 23, 2012
Nope
Okay, if you say so.
Now that would be convenient, wouldn’t it.
It is not my job to decide how ‘little’ or ‘big’ the threat was. In context, the threat appears hardly credible, but I don’t like it nonetheless. However, to be honest, I find your harping on about it and trying to misrepresent my thoughts about the subject even more offensive. Call me selfish.
I was not party to Eyeopener entering the comment thread and I responded as much to your comment, which I came across first (end of the thread). If you think I’m going to take one sentence completely out of context and make my mind up about the significance of that sentence, you are mistaken. If you think that even after taking context into account that I think that comment is justifiable, then again you are mistaken. These facts should be clear from what I have already written.
Nonsense eh? So that is how you describe someone testing their understanding of a context by paraphrasing it. Something tells me you smell blood and are milking this for all you can get. Guess what, I’m not convinced!
I did not say incomprehensible, I said incoherent. As a Brit who has lived in Finland for 10 years, I am quite used to making sense of incoherent English, no disrespect intended.
Counting paragraphs? How clever of you.
Yep, you missed the opportunity to have a sensible conversation about this. Now feck off, troll!
nope
February 23, 2012
I will admit that I was out for blood here, certainly not in the magnitude that you seem to think was the case, though. Unfortunately it seems I was more on track than I thought, based on what you decided to spill on your keyboard.
Again, I would like to point out, that instead of outright disagreeing on what eyeopener said, you also validated it, at least partly, by implying how clever the comment was in that it managed to provoke a response.
The rest of what you wrote is just so inappropriate and unprofessional that I won’t bother commenting on it. I’m still up for being civil and continuing this discussion.
eyeopener
February 23, 2012
Hi dope, sorry nope.
When this blog is disgusting for you, please -and you are free- “get-out”. Nothing is holding you here. Bye, bye!!
Your psychological understanding of my motives is on level 0. You don’t understand anything.
When you want to turn tables, be my guest!! But………dear dope, improve your reading skills and afterwards your writing skills.
Furthermore. you should be more concerned about the mentality slide of some Finns. Who you have obviously no need for to “judge” them!!
Blind and ignorant. A bad combination in this blog!!
Bye dope.
Foreigner
February 23, 2012
Nope,you seem to take your civic duties very seriously by reporting threats made against individuals to the authorities. I commend you for that! Now, can you please go report the death threat made against immigrants by your friend Rautio?
I am tired of all this hypocrisy! A death threat against immigrants issued by a public figure on Facebook goes largely ignored by the authorities. It actually took them days to launch an investigation into the matter. Yet they are very quick to monitor and investigate immigrants whose speech/ comments have an inkling of hate directed towards the white Finns! Why the double standards????
eyeopener
February 23, 2012
Dear Mark.
You wonder about my statement?? Actually you understood very well. Thanks for that
You can see the hypocracy of Nope’s reaction. What PS is continuously is suggesting creates the seedbed for “no-hate” crimes.
Now people start to stumble over my out-cry. Boeh!!
Incoherent, Mark?? Hardly. Only, I use the same “Twitterian tactics” of these anti-immigrant groups. Didn’t you notice?? So, please, don’t blame me of inconsistency and incoherence.
My respect for human life goes far beyond Nope’s selective outrage. He should be ashamed of not understanding. BLABLABLA!!!!
justicedemon
February 23, 2012
nope
And you still haven’t.
Yeah right – you are about as fresh as a pint of London tapwater from Seven Renal Aqueduct.
eyeopener
February 23, 2012
JD
sounds familiar!!
nope
February 23, 2012
Foreigner,
I most certainly find Rautio’s comments on facebook completely ignorant and stupid.
(Although, I hardly consider him being a public figure. By what I understood he is simply some bumpkin from up north- hardly a credible politician.)
This is what’s wrong with the situation. If I dislike eyeopener’s cry for murder, then that somehow implies, that I agree with the moronic – yet, undoubtedly similar – comments, that Rautio manages to spout out. This, thankfully, is not the case at all.
I would not consider myself a hypocrite. I was curious to see if hypocrisy may be found here, though. It seems I was right. Case in point: Eyeopener seems to be under the impression of valuing human life. Yet, instigating murder fatally contradicts this.
To me it seems, that eyeopener is merely the Rautio of whatever political faction he identifies himself with.
Also, there is a legal aspect to investigating Rautio’s comments. I would like to point out, that he did not instigate murder. He made a stupid and utterly inexcusably ignorant comment, and he will pay the price for it in a court of law, and later he will most definitely be ejected from the party he claims to admire. He did not, however, unlike eyeopener, cry for murder. That may be partly a reason for why the launch into the investigation took so long. It is a different offense.
In any case Foreigner, I am genuinely happy to see that a reasonable person does exist somewhere in this jumble of a blog. I thank you for that and maybe I might stick around a little while longer.
nope
February 23, 2012
JusticeDemon
I still have not commented on your link. Will you change your tone if I did?
And this really is the first time I’ve stumbled here. I am somewhat confused about why the more active commenters here are so confrontational. I think it is rather uncalled for.
justicedemon
February 23, 2012
nope
Or then again, you could storm out in synthetic outrage and then sneak back in a few days later with another new guise. That would be more consistent.
Migrant Tales
February 23, 2012
Come on, Nope, you are going to compare eyeopener with a PS politician like Tommi Rautio? They are two different things. But I know the PS has a lot to worry about. There is Freddy Van Wonterghem, who now claims that he was “misunderstood.” This doesn’t surprise me.
This is a fact: ”If Janne is the one [who shot the foreigners at the pizzeria] then we should give Janne a medal.” Rautio then suggested some BS like we are war than therefore soldiers are decorated in wars.
Your argument approach is pitiful, lowly and lacks of social grace. You come here anonymously, accuse us and play down what happened in Oulu. You are trying divert, like Soini, the real issue and pain of many people with his infamous “Bobrikov Brussels” comment.
We are well versed in the tactics used by the PS, right-wing populist, far-right groups and many others who are challenged by living in a culturally diverse society. We have read, answered and written part of the over 19,000 threads on Migrant Tales.
Nice try but no cigar at least not here. Hommaforum may lend you a sympathetic ear. And yes, sorry again for stealing your thunder.
eyeopener
February 23, 2012
Dope!!
You never got the point!!
The best thing is to “get out” and cry. You were the worst ever!!
First start a thread thinking that you had the right to say so!!. You have! As much as I have?
Secondly you profile yourself as the outraged girl/guy because I am proclaiming the killing of Soini is “against all odds”. The fact is that I have simply used the PS straetgy and tactics in social media to conftront them. You de-masked yourself to fall into this trap. But that’s your tactics. Accept and be generous to admit: I got you!!
Thirdly you try to crawl back into your “hole” not the make “the damage done” get worse. You are hidding behind the current procedures. Couldn’t you have thought of this before you start to attack Eyeopener??
You are in the wrong forest with the wrong equipment, dear Dope!!
Find the right roadmap?? If you can??
nope
February 23, 2012
Is this place really always this paranoid? I must be an alter ego, simply because I have the incredible audacity to ask whether or not you condone what some of the ill- advised comments here contain?
Migrant Tales,
I disagree that I am diverting the issue and downplaying what happened in Oulu. I believe I clearly stated how barbaric I consider Rautio’s comments to be. Additionally, I was not the one to bring Oulu up in this conversation, I was merely responding to what Foreigner said.
You, however have managed to bring up Freddy Van Wontgerhem and Soini’s Brussels- comments into the discussion quite needlessly.
However, I have to question why you are siding with eyeopener in a matter such as this. You are simply ganging up on me here, but your compatriot is clearly homicidal. That I find frightening.
This did start out as a civil discussion. I cannot understand where this “we are well versed in the tactics…” – this comes very much out of the blue for me. Please, take a breath and re-evaluate what I have said here. This has somehow turned extremely ugly.
Also, I belive I am the only commenter here so far who has not stormed out in synthetic outrage. I would consider my tone rather moderate. Unlike most other comments here.
eyeopener
February 23, 2012
Hi Dope.
Your tone is not the problem.
Your option of a “civil discussion” is another!!. If you can’t face criticsm don’t join the discusion. You made a point that -at least- I disagree with. I use your kind of tactics. Fight me or withdraw. We are not her to “coffee-table” your point of view.
I challenge your point of view as “BAD”, “IGNORANT” and “DISORIENTING THE PUBLIC” And I do that in my way. If you don’t like it, just leave.
As long as you decide to challenge my point of view about the communications about the killings, the resposibility and accountability of the police, the attitude of Finnish political parties I will fight you till the end.
Democracy allows to express ANY MEANING!!. I wil fight for this right, but I will fight your opinion till the end.
Migrant Tales
February 23, 2012
Nope, please do not put things out of context and do not put words in my mouth. The conclusions you make are your own.
By the way, this blog started with only 25 visits per day in 2007. Today it has exceeded many times that figure. One of the reasons why are people who come here with malicious intentions but end up giving us free publicity. We are eternally grateful to these people. One of them is a blogger called Hannu. If he wouldn’t have been for him sounding the charge against us in 2008 on Scripta, I doubt that this blog would exist today.
nope
February 23, 2012
Migrant Tales,
I appreciate the growth of your blog. I certainly have not meant to put words in your mouth, I am simply trying to glean what your intentions are regarding your back and forth patting on the back with eyeopener.
I do not believe I have taken things out of context. Again, I simply pointed out that eyeopener’s comment is in no way a means to further any discussion of any kind. This was somehow perceived as myself being ignorant, which from anyone’s point of view is utterly ludicrous.
You have my most sincere congratulations on the growth of your blog. I can only hope that in the future you may be able to manage both the more active people posting here, as well as yourselves.
I personally feel that what happened here was this: I found, that eyeopener’s comment was distasteful, out of place and demeans the credibility of this blog.
After this I was literally bashed by you, Mark and JusticeDemon. Instead of actually stating, that in fact, Rautio- like comments from eyeopener do not further the discussion; I got a f*ck you, a troll- accusation, an accusation of my intent, numerous abuses, an accusation of hypocrisy, an accusation of lacking social grace, an accusation of agreeing with Raunio, an alter- ego accusation and whatever else I won’t care to relay here anymore.
Again, maybe I missed something here, but the above seems like a disproportionate response to a legitimate question.
justicedemon
February 23, 2012
You’d better get to the doctor’s quick, before the bruises heal.
At least you’ll learn what literally means…
nope
February 23, 2012
I’m glad to see that you’re really focusing on the crux of the discussion.
justicedemon
February 23, 2012
But seriously, you took the bait, hook, line and sinker. And now eyeopener is reeling you in like a newbie numpty. Cut your losses and change the subject.
nope
February 23, 2012
I would like to point out, that I haven’t paid any attention to eyeopener since the initial comment that I posted here, because I have to agree with Mark, it is rather incoherent.
Go ahead, see for yourself. I’ve only discussed matters with Mark, Foreigner, you and Migrant Tales.
Now, your comment to me seems to be a last ditch effort to save face because of the amateur level of your responses.
But even so, I’m even more baffled if you honestly feel that way. In which case your actually saying that your blog, run by honest to God reporters and university graduates, induces discussion via baiting newbies and embracing trolls as long as they suit your political views.
justicedemon
February 23, 2012
nope
Frankly I can’t be arsed to check out who you have been responding to, though it’s odd that you claim not to have engaged the original offending commenter – reminds me of certain other contributors here in the past. Anyway the point is that you’ve said your piece over and over again here, as if you are hoping that someone will come over all persuaded like. That clearly shows that you’ve taken the bait, hook, line and sinker. It’s one of the best ways to deal with trolls: get them wound up and then let them go on and on until they realise that it’s all a wind up.
You have zero history on this blog, but you suddenly jumped into action when eyeopener gave the peruSSuomalaiset a taste of its own medicine. Threats of violence against political opponents are the stock-in-trade of fascist movements everywhere, and we don’t usually need to scratch these anonymous numpties very long before their true nature comes to the surface in this form (I referred you to a graphic example and you still haven’t condemned it – instead you provided a completely irrelevant what if… that was absolutely 100 per cent troll-diagnostic). You are now just another anonymous numpty trying to up the ante by threatening to complain to the police. Go ahead. After the case has been dropped, Ricky will test the strength of FOIA legislation (621/1999). What is the point of discussing this over and over here? Simply go down to your local cop shop and give them a laugh too. While you are about it, you can turn in most of the messages on this website as well.
Incidentally, where is the original offending post now?
Mark
February 23, 2012
Nope
Nope, stop playing the victim here.
I expressed my own personal dislike for Eyeopener’s comment, but unlike you, I did make the effort to understand the context and the intended meaning and I shared my thoughts. After that, I got several comments telling me how I was making excuses even though, several times, I told you that nothing justified the comments, but that the comments SHOULD be taken in context. In fact, if you approach the police, they will likely say the same thing.
After specifically telling you several times that I did NOT think that this kind of comment was acceptable, you continued to misrepresent my thoughts on the subject. At that point I called you a troll and told you to feck off, because YOU were no longer adding anything to the conversation. In fact, you still haven’t added anything except your sense of woundedness and stupid and stubborn refusal to understand how other people could possibly see this situation even remotely differently.
In fact, from the very beginning you questioned the credibility of the blog, the quality of the writing, the ‘murderous intentions’ of a commentator and had absolutely nothing of substance to say about the events of the day, which far outweigh in importance this stupid discussion of Eyeopener’s provocations, which again I will tell you, personally I find unacceptable.You insist on interpreting his comments literally. Fair enough, but any fool could tell you that that is not the only interpretation to make here.
Now you know how I felt after repeatedly telling you that I found Eyeopener’s comments to be disturbing, and you completely refused to acknowledge that point and rather focused on a straw man of ‘making excuses’. I hardly think that establishing context is ‘making excuses’. I’m a linguist by trade, Nope, and words have little meaning out of context. It’s that simple.
I don’t think it did. You clearly have an agenda, or else why else would you work so hard to misrepresent my expressed thoughts?
You seem to have been well on the way to making your mind up that ‘hypocrisy lies here’. ‘Instigating murder’ is one interpretation of his statement. Taken in context, he was making a different point. I don’t like his tactics, but deliberately blinding yourself to the rest of his message makes you out to be a troll. Nothing you’ve said, apart from your plea for innocence in all this, convinces me that you are here for serious discussion about the very important issues.
And I would be paranoid that this tactic of commenting on this particular thread is intended to block out comments on other more useful threads.
Mark
February 24, 2012
Nope (doppa rope)
It seems that context is not your strong point. Have you put this blog into any context? Do you know what happens on this blog? Enrique posts news and comments relating to the challenges faced by immigrants in Finland. Then a regular bunch of anonymous critics seize the opportunity to express various levels of xenophobia, racism and bigotry while quoting spurious statistics and denigrating immigrants at every turn. Not only that, but they consistently try to reverse the arguments by accusing Enrique and others of being racists simply because they draw attention to racism in Finland and in the comment responses. Attempts at normal, rationale and evidence-based discussion generally fail miserably, though the trolls do provide an opportunity to showcase the bigotry that is in Finland. So while they almost all deny racism exsists in Finland, they certainly offer a full-size helping of bigotry at almost every visit.
That is the context. And while I understand your original post, I do not understand your persistent attempts to call ‘foul, hypocrisy and newbie baiting’. Unless YOU make an effort to put comments properly into context and appreciate the responses you do get (Enrique said quite specifically that this blog has never and will never condone any violence), then you will be considered a troll.
In other words, welcome to the bear pit. Now don your true colours…
Migrant Tales
February 24, 2012
–In other words, welcome to the bear pit. Now don your true colours…
Well said, Mark! Nope, if you are interested in debating in earnest an issue like cultural diversity, immigration and Finnish identity on Migrant Tales, you are most welcome to do so.
If your intention is to throw mud at us and form part of that large black mass of bigots in our society, you will be like a pack of cigarettes with a warning: Trolls are hazardous to your mental health and may seriously distort your view of other groups.
Mark
February 24, 2012
Enrique
Migrant Tales
February 24, 2012
–Got to be quote of the week!
Maybe but you are still numero uno with your quote!
nope
February 24, 2012
JusticeDemon
“You have zero history on this blog, but you suddenly jumped into action when eyeopener gave the peruSSuomalaiset a taste of its own medicine. ”
Like I said, as a first visit to the blog and witnessing death threats doesn’t exactly make a good first impression.
This “giving PS a taste of its own medicine” is again simply stooping to a level that you seem to resent. I find it unprofessional, but it seems to be the status quo of your blog.
Mark
“Nope, stop playing the victim here.”
But I am the victim, the persistent abuse thrown my way is a clear indication of this.
“I expressed my own personal dislike for Eyeopener’s comment, but unlike you, I did make the effort to understand the context and the intended meaning and I shared my thoughts. ”
And I would like to point out, that providing context to the remark, in my opinion, is validating it. I will, sir, shake your hand if you manage to be as civil in case the tables were turned.
I’m sure you’ve been hit with “tactics” and the like, but assuming the worst from the start when someone engages in discussion here is a bit odd.
“In fact, from the very beginning you questioned the credibility of the blog, the quality of the writing, the ‘murderous intentions’ of a commentator and …”
The credibility of this blog is being diminished by the fact that eyeopener is considered clever here. Maybe not by you, but certainly by JusticeDemon.
“I don’t think it did. You clearly have an agenda, or else why else would you work so hard to misrepresent my expressed thoughts?”
And after some introspection I admitted to your initial accusation. From there on I saw no reason to discontinue the discussion here, which was, in my opinion justified. You agree that eyeopener’s comment was out-of-place. Most others here apparently don’t seem to think so and that eats away at credibility.
“And I would be paranoid that this tactic of commenting on this particular thread is intended to block out comments on other more useful threads.”
Yes, that is absolutely paranoid. But whatever floats your boat.
” And while I understand your original post, I do not understand your persistent attempts to call ‘foul, hypocrisy and newbie baiting’.”
I need only direct your attention to what JusticeDemon perceived the situation to be.
“Well said, Mark! Nope, if you are interested in debating in earnest an issue like cultural diversity, immigration and Finnish identity on Migrant Tales, you are most welcome to do so. ”
I am most certainly willing to do so. However, I would like the benefit of the doubt that not everyone who does not immediately denounce everything you claim to be opposite views of your own is a fascist, PS, Rautio- whatever. There lies the integrity of any meaningful discussion and I have been slandered here as a bigot, even before I’ve managed to bring out any other views than condemning- however “sarcastically intended”- death threats. In addition to that, you decided to side against me and made up your mind about me with your conspiracy theories.
Migrant Tales
February 24, 2012
–However, I would like the benefit of the doubt that not everyone who does not immediately denounce everything you claim to be opposite views of your own is a fascist, PS, Rautio- whatever.
Again you are moving the goalposts, Nope. They are not contrary to MY views but valid questions. What kind of a party is the PS if it has members in the neo-Nazi SKV, what is Suomen Sisu? What does Halla-aho and Hirvisaari mean when they use the term “multiculturalism?” Do you agree with the Nuiva Manifesto? These are not MY VIEWS but valid questions that others and I are asking.
Conspiracy theories? You said it. I didn’t.
Mark
February 24, 2012
Nope
Rubbish. You made a valid point and it was addressed, in several different ways. But rather than accept the sincerity with which people responded, you kept on the bloodhound trail. Fine, but you are going to get some heat for such a ‘cruising for a bruising’ approach.
We shall have to agree to disagree. As Lord Bingham once said (Lords Appeal, 2006 Collins vs DPP) in regard to understanding the idea of ‘menace’ in electronic messages, ‘context is everything’.
Well, actually, I think he’s being clever too, and provocative. And my approach to these things is that it takes all kinds. Some people appreciate a measured response, others like to see activists take a more ‘take it to ‘em’ approach. I don’t think you have to decide that a single ONE approach to getting the message across is the ONLY one that should be pursued. Each to their own.
Stick around. Or better still, try contesting some of the bigotry that arrives daily to this blog and you’ll perhaps see where the paranoia comes from
I really think that is a given, here, Nope. I also think that you are in danger of interpreting a kind of ‘editorial policy’ for the blog comments, when none exists. In truth, it’s a free-for-all where everybody takes a different stand and approach on any given issue or thread of argument. Your stand was seen as hostile. JD’s response was to point out what you didn’t do as opposed to what you did do. You attacked Eyeopener while not saying anything about the very topical and relevant issues going on in the Finnish media in relation to AN ACTUAL MURDER. Not a provocative comment in a heated blog discussion. AN ACTUAL MURDER, which was later disgustingly condoned by a PS politician, who was NOT made to resign immediately, as would happen in almost every other political party, but rather will go ‘through a process’, much like previous PS members who have shot their racist mouths of and are STILL in the party, despite these so-called disciplinary processes.
Maybe JD was asking too much in thinking that you would be cognizant of all of that, but I agree with his general approach. If you want to take your stand on Eyeopener’s comments and ignore all the other comments that relate to what I consider much more important and relevant issues for discussion, then this says something about your sincerity.
However, on the face of it, a typically Finnish-styled request to ‘let’s go and murder so and so’ does not appear a very sane response. But Eyeopener WAS trying to make a point here, and a very valid one, that the police and politicians response to Rautio’s comments were woefully inadequate, but that the response to his own ‘call to arms’ would likely receive attention and condemnation from Finns. I see that as a very valid point. At the same time, I think that he cannot and should not made the point in such blatant terms, as much for his own sake, because in the UK, where Free Speech has recently been curtailed significantly because of the 2003 Communications Act and the Twitter Joke Trial judgments, he would almost certainly be up in court. Thankfully, Finnish police, much like American police, take a more liberal view, and context really is everything.
JD’s other valid point was that Eyeopener was being very subversive, and you did fall into that trap hook line and sinker. It’s not a question of being clever or not, I suppose you took his post at face value. But the simple fact is that you have started to respond without fully taking into account the context of the blog. I don’t blame you for that, but perhaps a little more introspection will tell you that there is a lot more going on here than simply ‘hypocrisy’ and ‘newbie-baiting’. A lot more…
Mark
February 24, 2012
Nope
On the point of what you chose to comment on, the main story WAS about the ‘random’
murder of an immigrant in Oulu, which HAS attracted a lot of news coverage in the last week. Like I said, Eyeopener’s comment appears to have been a direct response to the comments and media and political reaction to Ratio’s comments on that murder. I understand why you objected to the comment. It’s a valid response. But you ought to be OPEN to other responses too. There is not a SINGLE right way to respond to a comment like that. I’d be very suspicious of a moral certitude that asserted there was only one right way. A message can convey a very different message than that contained purely in the ‘content’ of a message, especially when it’s being used in a subversive way as with Eyeopener. Indeed, in the UK, comedians, political satirists and free-speech advocates are fighting all the time to maintain this freedom to be subversive with the language, because the paranoia that surrounds the ‘war on terror’ certainly seems to be putting significant pressure on the bounds of free speech.
Yes, it’s subtle, and yes, it is kind of clever. But it’s also open to huge misunderstanding, which is why I don’t personally consider it acceptable.
How much do you know, Nope, about what has gone on in Finland in the last week? What brought you to the blog in the first place?
nope
February 24, 2012
“Again you are moving the goalposts, Nope. They are not contrary to MY views but valid questions. What kind of a party is the PS if it has members in the neo-Nazi SKV, what is Suomen Sisu? What does Halla-aho and Hirvisaari mean when they use the term “multiculturalism?” Do you agree with the Nuiva Manifesto? These are not MY VIEWS but valid questions that others and I are asking. ”
I hardly consider myself moving any goalposts. I would like to point out that this is the first time you are posing these questions to me. Before this they were blatant accusations.
I don’t know what kind of a party PS is if some of its members support SKV. I suppose I deem it just as ridiculous as I deem the green party’s roots in what used to be East Germany. I consider them as crazy as SDP which had a convicted kidnapper running for office. I consider all fascist ideologies to be stupid, as such, SKV is not the only group I condemn in Finland.
In all honesty I think PS, as a rising political party and as such, it will take a while for it to mature and filter out all the crazies. Asking Soini if he’s responsible for the actions of some members of PS is just as moronic as holding Jutta Urpilainen accountable for the attempted kidnapping of the Herlin heir.
Every rising political force gets its share of crazies, there is no way around this. Some people are always looking for an excuse to belong in something. In any case, I find the rise of PS a good thing from a practical point of view, because it means that the political field cannot, in the information age, be divided up by politicians who consider themselves not having to answer to the people. The fact that we have PS means that SDP, Kokoomus and Keskusta have to start appearing like distinct parties again.
I would be more frightened if the crazies did not identify themselves via PS, because that would mean that they are truly underground and have a genuine shot at radicalizing. But they will be filtered out in time and the rise of PS will stop and stabilize for a few decades until the next party comes along to give a voice to people who are frustrated at the current state of affairs.
I cannot speak for Hirvisaari, but I belive I have a pretty good idea of what Halla- aho means when he speaks of multiculturalism. I think he expresses his opinions rather clearly (I mean they are not obfuscated, this is not meant for someone to pick up on and say something like: “Yeah, he’s clearly a racist- haha, got u!”)
Do I agree with the nuiva manifesto, I don’t know. Probably not the whole thing, but I can see the logic in some of the statements I believe it contains. I belive it has something to do with people being fed up with multiculturalism being shoved down their throats. Just like any ideology that is force-fed. Here’s what I think could’ve happened: we could’ve just let immigration handle itself, and after a while things would stabilize. Instead- and this is only my own perception of the situation- out of the blue, Finns get hit with the concept of racism and how everything they do is racist, no matter what. This created a reaction and now we’re dealing with the fallout. I’m not assigning blame and I’m not picking a fight (I would like to be able to continue the discussion without having to place disclaimers like this every so often, but for now it seems prudent.) but while some Finns and some immigrants are at odds with each other based on ethnicity, most negative reactions between the two groups are not a result of racism. People tend to argue with each other.
I think the nuiva manifesto means ending the artificial nature of being apologetic for something people haven’t done in the first place. Some people misconstrue this as racism, I personally, do not.
“Conspiracy theories? You said it. I didn’t.”
This is just antagonistic, give it a rest, will you?
nope
February 24, 2012
“How much do you know, Nope, about what has gone on in Finland in the last week? What brought you to the blog in the first place?”
I know what’s happened in the past week. To me it seems that both racists and anti- fascists (which is a kafkesque concept to me) genuinely wish these sad incidents were racially motivated. Placing expectations on these incidents in the hopes of political munition is sad and happens on both ends of the spectrum.
I was brought here from elsewhere on the internet. I would like to point out that I didn’t come from Hommaforum. I belive that its content is still a little bit too immature for my liking.
Migrant Tales
February 24, 2012
–To me it seems that both racists and anti- fascists (which is a kafkesque concept to me) genuinely wish these sad incidents were racially motivated.
Wrong, Nope. It is an opportunity for a group like the Somalis to express their sadness and outrage.
Thank you for the longer thread, which gives us a better view of what your stand is on immigration and cultural diversity in Finland. I will get back to it later today since I have to go to a meeting now.
nope
February 24, 2012
“Wrong, Nope. It is an opportunity for a group like the Somalis to express their sadness and outrage. ”
You realize, that a conversation is doomed from the get-go when you simply state: “No, you are wrong.”
“To refuse a hearing to an opinion, because they are sure that it is false, is to assume that their certainty is the same thing as absolute certainty. ” -J.S. Mill
I’m still on the fence of whether or not this applies here, but it sure is getting close.
justicedemon
February 24, 2012
Mark
I’m sure you remember Kenny Everett’s performance at the 1983 Tory Party Conference.
Mark
February 24, 2012
Nope
Well, again you are putting up straw men. If this is your speculation about what we think, why don’t you ask us and give us a chance to accept or refute the charge, that is the ‘grown-up’ thing to do?
Personally, I have no view on the racial motivations yet of any of the murders. What I do know is that since Enrique has been posting about them, the response has been vehement, with the thrust of the damage limitation being that immigrants are MORE criminal, which is really pretty darn racist. Our hands have been full in dealing with this charge. The other thing is as Enrique mentioned, several Somalis and immigrants have come on the blog, including the brother of the Somali man who died in Oulu to express their sadness and their hope for justice. Many comments have expressed distrust about the police and that has generated significant discussion about racism in general. Each time an immigrant has tried to talk about the racism they face, the response has been hostile, racist and at times vicious. That damage limitation may have had traction a few days ago, but since Rautio came out and said the shooter in Oulu should get a medal and that Finland is at war with its immigrants, the bald denial of racism in Finland starts to sound pretty darn hollow. Even Soini was forced to denounce the comments as racist.
So, your rather hasty conclusion that is all about political point scoring is way off mark. You really seem to be on the fence, Nope. I’m not saying that point scoring doesn’t go on here, and even I do it constantly, but I would say that my responses are just that, a RESPONSE. I answer to specific comments being made and I respond to those commenting on my posts. I certainly don’t start by trying to make political capital.
Fine. In my opinion, you have added very little to the debate and generally speaking misunderstood and misrepresented the comments being made to you and the blog in general, Likewise, you have continuously trivialised the efforts of those on the blog who discuss or challenge racism, rather choosing to seek out ‘hypocricy’ and generally crying foul the minute you were challenged on your sanctimoniousness. If this is your approach to the racism debate fine. When you are ready to get your hands dirty on the issue and actually stand up to bigotry, I’d welcome you back, as you seem to be articulate and have some notion of principles. Shame it’s wasted while you sit on your perch of privilege.
So I don’t think that your contributions will be much missed. And I say that without any malice.
Mark
February 24, 2012
Nope
You have this completely arse about face. Finns got hit with a new wave of ‘immigrants’, which coincided with a recession. This produced a hotbed for grievances, which were seized on by populists and nationalists in Finland. See the skinheads of Joensuu in the 90s for the more visible response. Not only that, but it’s obvious to anyone coming to Finland that there is a generational gap in attitudes to foreigners, with passive racism having been the norm for many older Finns, while at the same time, there is a new generation of active racist Finns who oppose anything that even smells of multiculturalism or a brown skin. This combines with traditional bigotry and suspicions of Russians to create a generally xenophobic atmosphere. I’m a foreigner, I came here with no preconceptions and no previous history of racism activism, and yet it was obvious to me within a few months of arriving, both through meeting Finns socially and working with them professionally. Not everyone, but a significant portion. Enough to make it a ‘visible’ phenomenon.
So, the discussion about Finland’s ‘racism’ is generally met with utter denial. That tells you in one breath the extent of the problem. The fact that national politicians can make bald statements along those lines and yet they are contradicted by every single study that asks foreigners what they think. The response of many Finns has simply been to call the foreigners liars. That’s the level of debate. Meanwhile, race relations deteriorate, and Finland is well on the way down a self-fulfilling prophecy of predicting doom and disaster as a result of immigration.
justicedemon
February 24, 2012
nope
“Moronic” – lol
The difference is not in what happens, but in how the party and its leader respond to what happens. Is Juha Turunen still an SDP member? What happened to Matti Putkonen? Or for that matter who are Jouko Juvonen, Heikki Parviainen, Mikael Lith, and Tommi Laitila?
The very evident message from PS so far is that connections with racist and fascist organisations and overt expressions of racist and fascist views may ruffle a few feathers if they reach the public domain, but such conduct will not get you expelled from the party or even strongly advised to resign. A serious criminal conviction may also put an end to your political aspirations elsewhere, but PS will always welcome you.
Mark
February 24, 2012
Nope
Mark
February 24, 2012
Nope
That’s hardly the case, is it! That’s always the cry of victimhood. I have not seen multiculturalism being rammed down anybodies throat. In fact, the minute anyone stands up in the debate and says ‘let’s have some tolerance and mutual self-respect’, the first thing you hear in response is ‘shut the fuck up you multicultural shit’. I mean, invariably it’s the anti-anti-racists that bring multiculturalism into the debate, and when they do, they do it with a very prescriptive view of what multiculturalism is, as if it is a political policy, when study after study has shown that there are not really specific ‘multicultural’ policies of government. Government policy is generally motivated rather by a recognition of the requirements of the labour market. However, this issue becomes completely obfuscated.
The approach of many people opposing bigotry has nothing to do with ‘multiculturalism’ as a political ideology, but rather with the simple recognition that cultural and ethnic diversity is the norm and not the exception for the worlds nations and populations.
However, it cannot be emphasised enough the effect of terror attacks since the early 2000s. If the intention of those attacks was to sow the seeds of distrust, to undermine reasonably peaceful co-existence between christians and muslims, to create a sense of threat among the ‘white’ populations of the world, then the work of Islamic extremists has been successful. But it’s been successful because of OUR ignorance, not because of the inherant evils of Islam or the ‘criminality’ or any such failings of particular nationalities of people. We are the victims of our own fears and WE are scapegoating immigrants.
This has happened many times over in our recent history, and that is SAD, Nope. Because such a response to a sense of threat and ideas of cultural prescriptivism have wreaked havoc in Europe already in the last century.
Like I said, context is not your strong point, is it.
nope
February 24, 2012
“So, your rather hasty conclusion that is all about political point scoring is way off mark. You really seem to be on the fence, Nope. I’m not saying that point scoring doesn’t go on here, and even I do it constantly, but I would say that my responses are just that, a RESPONSE. I answer to specific comments being made and I respond to those commenting on my posts. I certainly don’t start by trying to make political capital. ”
I wouldn’t go as far as to say that I’ve concluded that this is all about political point scoring. I admit, I could’ve been clearer in that I’m still trying to make up my mind about whether or not that’s what goes on here. So far you provide me with compelling arguments, which others are very intent on demeaning with their own behavior.
However, I was asked to express what brought me here and where I stand on the issue. I answered those questions. Now you’re jumping the gun on whether or not I’ve made up my mind about the point scoring.
“Fine. In my opinion, you have added very little to the debate and generally speaking misunderstood and misrepresented the comments being made to you and the blog in general, Likewise, you have continuously trivialised the efforts of those on the blog who discuss or challenge racism, rather choosing to seek out ‘hypocricy’ and generally crying foul the minute you were challenged on your sanctimoniousness.”
This is the third time I am going to point out that you were correct in your initial asessment of my disposition here.
I have not trivialized efforts challenging racism. This is unfounded and is based solely on addled ramblings. That’s a byproduct of the general mentality here, which seems to be this “us vs. them” plus the conspiracy theories. I will gladly put this behind us, but a way more open mind is necessary here.
Yes, I cry foul when I’m confronted by hypocrisy.
“. If this is your approach to the racism debate fine. When you are ready to get your hands dirty on the issue and actually stand up to bigotry, I’d welcome you back, as you seem to be articulate and have some notion of principles. Shame it’s wasted while you sit on your perch of privilege. ”
I do belive that double standards have to be confronted in the issue of racism. I’m sure the discussion will lead us to crossroads where we’ll both have to investigate our intentions and the hypocritical aspect will stand out in a formidable fashion. This, however, will be a thing of the future.
Also, I did manage to produce quite a bit of thoughts, which Migrant Tales said he would adress. That’s my overture to the racism debate and I’d greatly appreciate it if you took a look at that, instead of being still stuck on the meta-discussion. I’m getting off my high- horse, still waiting on you.
nope
February 24, 2012
Scratch the previous. I’ll catch up in a bit.
Mark
February 24, 2012
Nope
Okay, agreed. And thanks for the other points you made in the post. I’m happy that we’ve found a common understanding about the misunderstanding, on my part too.
I have responded to your longer post. However, it’s busy right now and so it’s not necessarily the most considered response. Let’s start with a fresh page and see where we end up.
That may very well be the case and it is an interesting point to consider. An irony that I see all too well in those who most vehemently opposed to immigrants on the grounds that they come from ‘depraved communities’ that completely disrespect human rights is that they are undermining the very human rights framework that makes the West an example to the rest of the world. However, I’m also aware that the more you challenge your enemies, the more likely it is that you will become like them if you are not careful, and that goes for us on this side of the debate. There has very much been a ‘them and us’, but I’m not sure that is by choice.
nope
February 24, 2012
“. I’m a foreigner, I came here with no preconceptions and no previous history of racism activism, and yet it was obvious to me within a few months of arriving, both through meeting Finns socially and working with them professionally. Not everyone, but a significant portion. Enough to make it a ‘visible’ phenomenon.”
I am of foreign descent. Barely more than half of my friends are Finns, half of those have foreign partners.
I’ve yet to discover this significant portion. This is a subjective matter, I will admit, but my network has not reported racist incidents.
“So, the discussion about Finland’s ‘racism’ is generally met with utter denial. That tells you in one breath the extent of the problem. The fact that national politicians can make bald statements along those lines and yet they are contradicted by every single study that asks foreigners what they think. The response of many Finns has simply been to call the foreigners liars. That’s the level of debate. Meanwhile, race relations deteriorate, and Finland is well on the way down a self-fulfilling prophecy of predicting doom and disaster as a result of immigration.”
I agree that te discussion of racism in Finland is met with denial, because it isn’t as rampant as it is made out to be. Yes, there is racism in Finland. No, I don’t think it is getting worse.
Studies asking foreigners, well that’s a loaded issue. If you ask foreigners in the in the lowest income class whether or not they experience racism, it is in their interest to report that racism is an everyday aspect of life. Additionally, people who see racism everywhere are also almost too often the ones to conduct these studies.
Yes, race relations do deteriorate, because every issue that forms between Finns and immigrants is pretty much handled through some kind of time and money consuming institution based on racial affairs. Finns cannot understand why every time they come into contact with foreigners, some political multiculturalist comes along and makes it a racial issue. This creates distrust. Also, everytime someone gets mugged, the first thing reported is whether or not it is racially motivated. The initial assumption is that race plays a part in absolutely everything. Everyone I know is sick of it, because for the vast majority of people, race does not play a part in everyday interaction.
“. A serious criminal conviction may also put an end to your political aspirations elsewhere, but PS will always welcome you.”
This isn’t really true. Just an example: Kimmo Sasi- kuolemantuottamus. He isn’t the only one either, a quick google will turn up current parliament members who are convicted of crimes.
” In fact, the minute anyone stands up in the debate and says ‘let’s have some tolerance and mutual self-respect’, the first thing you hear in response is ‘shut the fuck up you multicultural shit’.”
Well, I think you’d hear that if you’re going to preach this sort of thing to either a skinhead or an immoderate muslim. Otherwise, I don’t see normal people reacting like that.
“The approach of many people opposing bigotry has nothing to do with ‘multiculturalism’ as a political ideology, but rather with the simple recognition that cultural and ethnic diversity is the norm and not the exception for the worlds nations and populations. ”
And this is something which I think everyone can agree on. I believe many people support PS because multiculturalism in its current form, at least according to Halla- aho, is perceived as a political ideology. It isn’t, and never was. PS, in my opinion, seeks to depoliticize multiculturalism into exactly what you state it should be. Again, alot of crazies in the party have misconstrued this, but the vast majority of the people I know who voted PS agree with this statement.
I would also point out that I am afraid of every religion, buddhists scare me the least, though. And I think Islam has done a good job at making itself a rigid, unchanging ideology which doesn’t seem to respect other faiths. Thankfully all the muslims I know are actually normal people.They can’t understand why everytime Islam is portrayed on television by some multiculturalist (and I’m talking about the political ones), they’ve always managed to dig up the most fanatical prick of the flock, to speak on behalf of all muslims. Yet, for some reason we give these people the time of day to preach their rhetoric and make demands of the decadent west.
justicedemon
February 24, 2012
nope
Now what was it that Mark observed?
Quod erat demonstrandum
nope
February 24, 2012
justicedemon
That doesn’t negate the issue.
Also, I think you’re still being overly confrontational, which reflects unnecessarily on the whole of this blog. If you’re trying to get a rise out of me just so you can heckle me when I adress other members of the conversation then I guess you could do that, but i don’t see how you’re furthering the discussion anymore.
justicedemon
February 24, 2012
nope
My understanding of the Kimmo Sasi case is that the offence was involuntary manslaughter (which is also one very lenient way to describe the offence in the first Oulu case, btw). The specific conduct was a lack of good judgement in failing to realise that he was unfit to drive due to a side effect of blood pressure medication. There is really no suggestion that such an offence would undermine public trust in an individual’s abilities or competence as a politician or demonstrate contempt for the law. A better example than Sasi IMO would be Kauko Juhantalo.
However, the cases that I referred you to involved offences such as rape and violent assault. I also specifically excluded Petri Nurminen, although it could be argued that he is unfit for political office on associated grounds.
There can hardly be any question that PS has very low standards indeed in recruiting prominent activists. Far below those of any other parliamentary political party.
justicedemon
February 24, 2012
nope
Actually, I think it does, unless you can specifically show that dishonesty was a significant factor in the surveys to which Mark referred. “All foreigners are liars” doesn’t cut it as evidence here. Where is your proof?
Well boo hoo. Remind us who it was that complained about being stuck on the meta-discussion.
Mark
February 24, 2012
Nope
Well mine has and continues to, and my network includes many Finns. Two opinions are subjective, no getting away from that.
Well, there seems to be a misundertsanding about claims about racism. The denials have tyically been flat denials, either ‘there is no racism in Finland’, much like your own above or ‘there is no racism problem in Finland’, which is also implied by your comment above. But you have your feet in two camps that appear to contradict themselves ‘there is no racism in Finland’, and ‘no, I don’t think it is getting worse’. What, may I ask, is ‘not getting worse’ if there is NO racism in Finland. Even if we get down to considering whether it is a ‘problem’, then that truly is subjective. However, the EU have made it quite clear that Finland is not doing enough. That’s an outside opinion. Then again, a problem for who? Not a problem for white Finns, no doubt, and nobody is prepared to listen to what immigrants say because they are such welfare scroungers/liars that they will say anything just to protect their ‘happy life in Finland’. Ugh, excuse me?! There are so many contradictions in this I barely know where to start. First, immigrants cannot be said to be happy if they are saying they feel discriminated against, so why would they make themselves unhappy when they are supposed to be so happy? You suggest it is ‘in their interests to say their is racism’. Well, that’s some fucking speculation, right there.
Talk about pre-judging! I mean, if we ask objectively, is there is a problem with discrimination in Finland, and before we’ve even heard an answer we say, ‘yes, but remember those foreigners are liars and benefit scroungers, so you cannot trust their answer’, then what kind of objectivity is that? If immigrants come here to make money, they why would they choose to stay on the dole? Unless the wages are so low that it doesn’t pay to work. And in the wise words of Lord Beveridge, we must make work pay.
This is regardless of any of the truths of any of the claims. For example, with nearly half a million people unemployed in Finland, the question of ‘benefit scroungers’ falls squarely on Finns and non-Finns alike. The issue of welfare dependency is complex, related to low-earner wage levels, income subsidies and claimed global pressures (whether true or not) for a cheap labour force. Either way, it is not specifically an immigrant problem. Immigrants face unique challenges, and assuming their problems are the same as ours, while at the same time turning a blind eye of tolerance to our own strikes me as mega-hypocrisy.
Yes, it may be perceived as a political ideology in the public consciousness, but PS operate not to depoliticise it, but rather to politicise it. That’s the point. It isn’t really a political issue. Do you know how multiculturalism typically comes into the frame? A part of the country or city is left to go do rot. Eventually you have mayhem and riots. In go the government committees to find out what went wrong, and lo and behold, we are told that the problem is discrimination because we are not yet sufficiently ‘multicultural’. The gut reaction to that, as with so many problems, is that it wouldn’t be a problem if they weren’t here in the first place. In one foul swoop, the problem is no longer one of discrimination, but one of immigration.
I really have to disagree about PS are doing with the debate. My thought is that they are politicising ethnicity.
Okay, that’s nice to hear. For the record, one of my best friends is a strong PS supporter, and so I know that there are PS supporters who are not racists.
I cannot remember where I read it, but even in Buddhism, one of the Buddha is supposed to have murdered two Brahmins in order to preserve the ‘scriptures’, and this was seen as perfectly justifiable. That’s not to smear Buddhism, which I personally greatly admire, but merely to point out that there are very few things in the world of religion or human behaviour that are unique to one people.
Well, that is the thing, and it’s directly contradicted by my friendship with several Muslims and co-operation with many more while living in the UK. There is no disguising the extremist elements in Islam or the challenges facing Islam in dealing with it. However, much much good is happening. Tunisia and likely Libya and Egypt are following a new kind of ideology, being developed by Rachid Ghannouchi, leader of Ennahda, who won the elections in Tunisia. His vision is of ‘democratic Islamism’. Much remains to be done to protect the rights of women in such a system, but, there, other parts of the Islamic democratic world can be a model, such as Bangladesh and Indonesia.
Mark
February 24, 2012
Nope
Sorry, a correction: you don’t appear to have your feet in two camps over the racism because you do accept there is racism. However, you also accept that others deny it totally. They do so perhaps because they perceive the question as ‘there is not a racism problem in Finland’. In which case, their ‘no’ is in answer to the wrong question. This being in two camps denial is very much the problem. And it’s been demonstrated time and again on this blog. Do a search on the site for Allan’s contributions, as a good example.
nope
February 24, 2012
“There can hardly be any question that PS has very low standards indeed in recruiting prominent activists. Far below those of any other parliamentary political party.”
I can agree on this. Members of parliament from PS have questionable criminal records.
However, I do not think, that if these characters were running for office from other parties- and if they’d take their voter base with them- that those other parties would reject them. Thereby the standards of all parties would be lowered by such a procedure.
Obviously this is mere speculation, but I think it speaks more of the general state of politics than of one party in particular. I do agree with your point, though.
But I still think that even if these people have questionable records, they’ve been elected and as such, they’ve given a voice to a big chunk of Finnish society. Is this a positive direction, I think it is. I think it has raised the issue of the fact that obviously alot of people, especially those bumpkins up north, have previously felt that they have no voice with which to express themselves. It’s better that they be heard now, instead of not being heard at all. I think it will lead to the previous ‘big three’ having to take a long look at the way they’ve lost their voter bases, which means that they can’t take voters for granted.
It took a populist party to do it, but hopefully in the next election they’ll have learned something. If not, then PS will probably continue to grow. This one is up to the old parties.
nope
February 24, 2012
justicedemon
“Well boo hoo.”
Really? This is your contribution?
Mark
” Not a problem for white Finns, no doubt, and nobody is prepared to listen to what immigrants say because they are such welfare scroungers/liars that they will say anything just to protect their ‘happy life in Finland’. Ugh, excuse me?! ”
This is putting up straw men. I’ve at no point made any indication towards considering anyone a welfare scrounger. I’m sure in the course of this discussion we’ll get to this part of the discussion, but I will not engange in it via straw men.
I was hardly criticizing foreigners being liars, rather, I was trying to point out that the people who do wish to see racism everywhere (more often than not, because their jobs depend on it) they will go to great lengths to report racism. Hence, the studies.
Obviously, I could’ve come across more diplomatic with that.
This two camps denial situation looks like a catch-22. I’d really rather not dive in that just yet.
I do believe there is racism in Finland, I do not believe it is a *growing* problem, but rather, that it is being eradicated quite efficiently. I think the fact that someone like Rautio gets a wave of negative publicity regarding his conduct proves that the situation is getting better. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t room for improvement.
Mark
February 24, 2012
Nope
Yes, but that’s just the spin. I mean populism was always a mix of right wing left wing, nationalism and even fascism. Don’t get me wrong, the idea of fascism on paper looks wonderful, a return to real ‘community led’ governance. In practice it leads to totalitarian regimes. This is precisely because the party entertains idiots like Rautio. Your hope is that they are moderated as they enter politics. In fact, the reverse seems to be the case. The Centre Right have lurched to right to shore up their own support. Soini would not have got away with his Brussels Bobrikov (classic Soini! I had to laugh at that one) comment in many Western countries. Take the condemnation of Bachmann in the US in the last election after her ‘anti-American socialist’ attacks on Obama. Such comments were seen to increase the likelihood of assassination. Take Breivik – he didn’t attack immigrants, he attacked the political establishment that he thought appeased and promoted the ‘Islamic invasion’. This kinds of comments by Soini are extremely inappropriate in today’s context. But such is the way he can muscle his way around in politics in Finland that little will be done to bring him to account. If anything, he takes capital from being a ‘comedian’ and being the ‘tough guy’ of politics, while portraying Rehn as the softie. It’s so typical of fascism with a smile!
Laced menace, the implicit threat, a macho stance! He has it off to a tee. As it is, I think that that comment will damage some of his support, coming at the time it does, with Rautio encouraging the killing of immigrants.
But you cannot turn voter grievances into a basis for political decision-making. Half the time that voters moan about this that or the other, it’s because they take a very narrow and quite selfish view of events. However, scapegoating is a wonderful way of tapping into the sense of grievance while being able to propose very simple policies that impact negatively only on a few people, whilst making the majority feel good about themselves. In terms of the economy, the impact is minimal and quite likely to be detrimental in the long run.
Cheap votes, Nope, cheap votes and ‘cheap’ political campaigning.
Mark
February 24, 2012
Nope
Listen, this might not be your opinion, but this is the argument being made, and in that sense, it’s not a straw man at all.
If the hat doesn’t fit, don’t wear it.
But why would they WISH to see racism everywhere? Who on earth would wish it on themselves? Can you imagine yourself doing it? Seriously, it’s so subjective, and yet it’s the plank that holds up the denial of the evidence from foreigners. It reminds me of arguments about people ‘choosing to be gay’, so as to justify cultural outlawing of homosexuality. Not a straw man, Nope, just a parallel. Who would choose to be gay, and to be bullied and beaten up on a regular basis? The message when I was growing up in the 70s and 80s was that if you were gay, you were ‘easy meat’. Why would anyone choose that?
Why would you assume that immigrants would make excuses about not being able to find work?
Especially when we have clear and consistent evidence on the other end of the employment bargain that says employers are refusing immigrants jobs because they ‘won’t fit in’. So, even though we know there is discrimination (all done with good intentions, of course), we still assume that when immigrant work canditates report it, it’s because they don’t want to work. ….
Come on, Nope, you set the standard for yourself that you don’t give in to speculation and subjectivity, so how about scratching this one of your list?
nope
February 24, 2012
Mark
“Your hope is that they are moderated as they enter politics. In fact, the reverse seems to be the case. ”
I am certain that they will be moderated. Historically speaking, even Kokoomus had its radical, terrorist wing back in the day. We shouldn’t delude ourselves into thinking we’ve evolved from that day and age in values and morals in any meaningful way and that people today are different than before.
” Soini would not have got away with his Brussels Bobrikov (classic Soini! I had to laugh at that one) comment in many Western countries.”
Technically he didn’t, because even the press is unsure which way to spin it. Should he be punished by some instance, well, I don’t think that’s a good idea. It’ll serve only to make him a martyr. The fact is, people roaring for Soini to be disciplined should learn to pick their battles. This has to be viewed from a pragmatical point of view.
I hardly consider it fascism, that’s kind of a slippery slope.
“As it is, I think that that comment will damage some of his support, coming at the time it does, with Rautio encouraging the killing of immigrants. ”
It will. One thing that has to be understood, though, is that politics move slowly. These changes can take over a lifetime, it’s a question of setting the groundwork, not of wanting all of it immediately.
nope
February 24, 2012
“Listen, this might not be your opinion, but this is the argument being made, and in that sense, it’s not a straw man at all.”
Look, without delving into semantics anymore than necessary, this was a straw man because you argued against arguments made by someone else.
I realize, that it is hard to see what exactly are the true motives behind a discussion being conducted on the internet and therefore these kinds of things tend to pop up, I admit to being guilty of it too, but we should refrain from digressing into being downright impolite.
“But why would they WISH to see racism everywhere?”
This was not meant as foreigners wishing to see racism everywhere. What I was talking about was that we have whole institutions, thousands of people hired by the state to combat racism. If racism isn’t to be found, these people are out of jobs. Therefore it is in their interest to discover racism as much as possible.
It is also in their best interest to conduct studies in such a manner that racism never disappears. As a caricature, a questionnaire may define racism as everything that is unpleasant. Answering such a questionnaire will inevitably lead to reports of growing racism.
I, too, find this kind of setting mind-boggling, it goes completely against common sense to go out of your way to find racism, but such are the times we live in that people like Rautio have seats in councils while others are desperate to keep their jobs.
Unfortunately I will have to excuse myself for a while now.
Mark
February 24, 2012
Nope
History will tell. It is of course possible, and cleary PS will gain in experience through strengthened opposition in parliament. But at the moment, the party remains fragile, depending on Soini’s charisma and significant political acumen to keep them floating closer towards the mainstream.
Maybe your understanding of ‘fascism’ is a bit too tainted by association with Nazism. In it’s basic principles, it is alive an well in all western political systems. It is an appeal to ancestry, blood, common culture, and the strength of the community above the needs of the individuals and political and corporate elites. Indeed, the Occupy Wall Street movement showed many of the traits of a popular fascist movement.
The element that always complicates the picture for fascism is the role of violence and the military, which has always been strong. Hence the appeal of a war against Islam to the Far Right, or posturing like ‘cultural self-defence’ etc. This is quite classic fascist political tactics and political mobilisation. It’s an uneasy alliance, typically. While Rautio or whoever the killer was in Oulu are only a minority, it only takes a few incidences to generate panic and increase racial tensions. There is only one party in Finland that is going to benefit from that! Call me cynical.
Mark
February 24, 2012
Nope
I’m not a fan of straw man arguments, myself, so I’m not really interested in justifying their use. However, questioning the validity of immigrant studies has been done on the basis that they are both liars or that they have something to gain (which in fact was your implicit argument), a specific instance of which is wrapped up in that phrase ‘benefit scroungers’, or as others have put it, ‘welfare shoppers’. The arguments are similar enough to justify bringing them into the discussion, and they do not constitute a straw man in my view. However, if you think I’m putting words in your mouth, I’m sorry about that. That is not my intention. I do not rely on misrepresenting fellow debaters just so that I can appear to easily win the arguments here. That strikes me as lazy and dishonest.
WE do? News to me, Nope
Care to elaborate?
Can you name a questionnaire where this was the case?
Racism is notoriously difficult to define and to measure, unfortunately. That also means it’s very easy to hide and difficult to tackle. Clearly there needs to be validation on all sides of the debate and better acknowledgement of what racism is. Politicians have to take a lead in spelling it out.
The problem is, there are not many votes in arguing against racism, while there are certainly votes in arguing against immigration. As long as that remains the case, there is likely to be a lack of leadership on the issue. Meanwhile, race relations deteriorate.
justicedemon
February 24, 2012
nope
Time to admit that you are making this up as you go along.
First you said this:
and then you said this:
and then (perhaps not yet aware that you are in deep shit and sinking fast) you said this:
So you began by arguing that foreigners were deliberately misreporting the facts in order to gain advantage (which is a dictionary definition of lying), then you denied that you were calling foreigners liars, and finally you slammed the door on your only escape route by denying that foreigners were suffering from any selective perception in their reporting (i.e. not liars, but merely mistaken).
In amongst all of this, you conflate the veracity of the data source itself (i.e. survey responses given by foreigners) with the academic integrity of the researchers, whom you claim are biased by a vested interest. All of this was merely an attempt to obfuscate the point that you called foreigners liars, precisely as Mark said you would.
Migrant Tales
February 24, 2012
Nope, I understand that possibly in your lifetime you may have lived in a country that had few foreigners and where in your history books you read about how bad the Russians were and how the Swedes excluded you from our language rights. These are valid points and I am certain they have an impact on things.
Even if racism may be a foreign phenomenon for you, it isn’t for me and many others who visit Migrant Tales. One matter that the U.S. Civil Rights Movement taught me in the 1960s and the gains that blacks made is that there is no compromise on racism. It’s like violence or wife-beating. You cannot justify it even though this happens. One of the problems in the anti-immigration camp is that they want to justify racism as if it were a normal part of our society. It is not and never will be.
I see in many of your arguments, like when you point out that visible minorities in Finland use the racism card, as a way of justifying your racism by denying the same right of the victim. By stating that Finland has no racism, or that the only ones who think that racism exists are immigrants, is a good way of denying our existence. In this group I include Finn like myself with international backgrounds.
We have a long way to tread but in the end it will be cultural diversity that will win. In order to create a society based on the extremist Nuiva Manifesto/Suomen Sisu wing of the PS or any other hostile anti-immigration group would be a Pyrrhic victory. You would have to destroy all of our most cherished civil liberties to exclude others like immigrants, Finns with international backgrounds and minorities. Is it worth it? Certainly not.
Is there fascism in Finland? Certainly there is and it is growing and becoming an ever-bigger problem through parties like the PS who are fueling a very clear “us” and “then.” It is not the fascism of the 1930s but of the 2010s. It is the same beast with different enemies and scapegoats.
I personally see extremist groups in Finland through parties like the PS (Suomen Sisu wing) and others not only a threat to our Finnish way of life but to all of us who want to embrace Finland and its culture on our ethnic and cultural terms.
So to answer your question, we are very serious about racism and how this social illness has spread recently in Finland. We are doing this blog on our spare time, with our hands on our hearts to defend the very rights that are enshrined in our Constitution.
Finland is a good country that values social equality but is under attack. That attack does not come from abroad but from within our borders. Paradoxically from those people who claim to defend us from that threat.
Hannu
February 24, 2012
Depressed. “Hannu why dont you go to Hommaforum and condemn the rampant racism that’s taking place in there, or the death threats against blacks they scheming there? ”
What racism and death threats, mind to show me examples?